Is Keeping Your Old Car Better For The Environment?

[@EngineeringExplained]

Hello all! Addressing common concerns: 1. Per the title, this video is not answering a question about vehicle costs. EVs today are generally more expensive up front. Here's a video diving into more details about EV cost, if interested: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bZOsc6ZufNqIj7s 2. Yes, the Tesla Impact Report is used as a source in this video. Obviously, this should be approached with skepticism. As stated in the video, their numbers line up with real world estimates. Most studies I find cite ICE production emissions around 10,000 kg, and Tesla shows 9,000 kg (lenient towards ICE). This is also why I provided a scenario where you *double* the EV emissions, and it still wins out over 7 years. Actually really cool to see a manufacturer provide production numbers, because it's rare information to find. More here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bIPLpZyGmsuJsK8 3. I hope this isn't conveyed as me telling you what to do haha. My only goal is to answer the question of the video title. You can do whatever you want! I have three cars. One is a supercharged MX-5. It's definitely not green. It's yellow.

[@yayayayya4731]

Cool

[@Zubkover]

And then there are cars from the 80/90s that can get near-EV like mathematical MPG ratings if driven correctly. xD

[@LENZ5369]

TBH you glossed over the rare metals needed for EV construction; to the extent that it may be misleading. In general: you would have to mine, transport and process tons of material for just a few kgs -you are dealing 'parts per million' type of concentrations.

[@ssllhh100]

@@LENZ5369 they don't care, from taking tesla's word as a fact, to glossing over mineral emissions to dismissing cost, its misleading at best, i expected better from jason

[@jlhanes]

As an appliance technician that regularly explains this, I would really appreciate a similar video with stats on home appliances.

[@Staysa001]

So what I’ve learned is I should keep riding Italian super bikes to save the planet.

[@martinfisker7438]

Yes! And you got a like, just because there's not enough riders here

[@difflocktwo]

Ride a bicycle.

[@johnnyblue4799]

@@martinfisker7438 And you get one for pointing that out! :)

[@Xfacehack]

I ride both italian, japanese and Aussie bikes. That two stroke oil burner actually helps the environment 😂 I still have pleps yelling at me though 🤓

[@hondacota4rt]

@@Xfacehack there are australian motorcycle manufacturers?

[@artkrueger8312]

What's better for the environment than buying an EV? Working from home, so you don't have to drive every day. I used to drive 7 days a week. Now I drive 2 days a week.

[@brouettebredouille8320]

To go a bit further I would ask you the environmental impact of working from your home compared to working from your workplace. I’m primarily talking about internet but I don’t know your specific case.

[@williamgolden839]

Good point if you can

[@artkrueger8312]

@@brouettebredouille8320 I doubt using home internet vs work internet has any CO2 difference. Heating/cooling a second building and driving does.

[@Sttuey]

Same here, as I expect for many. Now though I rarely see or socialise with my work colleagues, the business lacks innovation and spontaneity and everyone is generally getting fed up. Working from home might reduce your emissions but it's not free of consequences.

[@deanhodges2360]

A society doesn't function if everyone stays inside.

[@PaulHojda]

I'm definitely running my car into the ground. She's 13 years old and get almost 40 to the gallon, and I only drive about 8000miles per year.

[@robertmaitland09]

Mines 23 years old and does 45mpg, 6000 miles a year!

[@uroskostic8570]

@@robertmaitland09 Installing liquified petroleum gas or methane into car, makes ZERO emissions, and gives same horse power, while driving 4 times cheaper than gasoline. entire Europe is using it, and even 50 years old cars pass emissions tests with it.

[@thatguyontheright1]

@@uroskostic8570 I've been looking into a LPG modification, but I can't afford the modification

[@JaccoSW]

@@uroskostic8570 LPG is definitely cleaner but it's certainly not zero emission. Still CO2. And in most of Europe it's a fringe thing because it makes the car heavier because of the steel tank and it will decrease the power of the engine because of it's lower energy density.

[@joro407]

@@JaccoSW It'll make the car heavier by 20kg max. LPG here in Europe is 2x cheaper than petrol. If you install cheap brand LPG system it'll reduce HP by 5 10hp but higher quality ones don't have difference, you can even tune it for more HP on LPG.

[@samhunt8240]

Can't afford a brand new electric car, but running my old 50+ mpg diesel with a blend of veg oil still seems it would work out better currently than an electric car.

[@Xfacehack]

What is mind boggling to me is that, how can i replace my diesel car (bmw 330d e91) with an electric car? I need to tow stuff and i yet found a electric car that can tow as heavy and long as this bmw. While also not being huge. Clearly co2 production most be worse with any electric vehicle.

[@aygwm]

They banned diesel cars because they’d never be able to sell you another car if you bought one. No tin foil hat needed.

[@zelenskysboot361]

Wouldn't happen to be a diesel rabbit would it. That car was a beast.

[@difflocktwo]

You guys don't need a car. You need an electric bus. Lmao seats 7. It's like that SUV parody from GTA 3.

[@selrahc2061]

I actually drive between 6k to 8k a year. But a campers, the family car is a transit connect that runs mostly fully loaded about 80mpg effective in town and 100 + on Fwy.

[@BlacXtar32]

Well, I’m gonna keep my 21 years old 35mpg car doing just 5000 miles per year. I wasn’t thinking about selling it but this video cleared my consciousness. 🍀

[@webx135]

Or if you sold it for a used Prius. A used Prius is basically the greenest car purchase you can make. But you'd better love it. You'd have to run it until it dies and Toyotas last decades easy.

[@brulaapgaapmeester8052]

Conscience. :)

[@minecrafterselite1]

@@webx135 the battery’s on Priuses and other hybrid cars go bad are are extremely expensive to replace

[@jakegarrett8109]

@@webx135 every time I see a Prius I spit flames as I pass them, the probably quarter gallon of fuel being spent from being held up then passing those turtles probably doesn't work out to be beneficiary to anyone. Also is a Prius capped at 60 mph even in Texas? Even my huge RV that's older than me and blown head gaskets does 90 mph easy why can't those little turtles go faster? I would rather bike the 30 miles to work than drive a Prius, that sounds humiliating and mind numbingly dull (I wouldn't be surprised to see a causality graph on the rate of suicide for Prius drivers, that's one of those cars that probably lowers emissions by having their driver off themselves than continue commuting to work in such a slow and ugly vehicle, therefore zero emissions).

[@alexandergeorgiev2631]

@@jakegarrett8109 they're capped at 106 mph not 60. The people driving slow are prob doing so bc they want to use less gas

[@JackOfHearts42]

I'm about 3 years into using a 35mpg car. I planned on running it into the ground (or close) when I got it, and it appears that was sort of smart. I couldn't have gone electric at the time, so i feel good about my choice. I really hope my next car is electric.

[@Lawrence330]

Same. I bought a Jetta when I decided to go back to college, sold my Duramax. I average about 36 MPG mixed driving, so according to this chart, I'm pretty much not "allowed" to get anything other than electric next go-around! The Tesla didn't make any sense at the time, I don't drive very many miles annually, and the base price is almost twice as much as my Jetta. A Bolt or Leaf would have been too small for my family. I'd really like to take a look at a Rivian in the future.

[@coolfrost6]

My dilemma was that I was driving a skoda with 300k miles that got 50mpg but being 18 years old it was not worth it to get it to pass inspection. And even a super fuel efficient car like that still manged 132300lbs og co2 just in fuel burn. So in the end I bought a used BMW i3. Electric cars as they are now are not sustainable but they might have the potential to be one day, but burning fule will never be no matter how efficient cars might become.

[@Misfit1336]

Are you gay?

[@rrennnerr]

As part of the ‘Save the manual’ crowd, I’m going to be buying used, old cars for quite a long time.

[@MattB90]

All I want are more rwd manual hatchbacks but you cant have it all

[@tristandauod]

Lol same

[@tristandauod]

@@JT_771 the dark side is tempting. Resist😂

[@bluetoes591]

@@JT_771 Tesla's are fast, but they're completely uninspiring to me. To me driving isn't about the fast, but about the shifting and engagement with the machine. Tesla is the antithesis of engagement, not to mention light and toss able are not words I can associate with a 6,000lb vehicle.

[@thatcopenguy]

If you really want to "save the manuals" the ideal scenario would be to buy a brand new manual car from the factory, therefore supporting their business & for them to know that there is still demand for them. I heard the Mazda 3 2.5 Manual is a really great daily so go check that one out. Not the most environmentally friendly option but it's a cause I'd probably support.

[@Gornemant]

Here's another aspect that impact people more: money. A model 3 is 55K here minimum, used is 40k minimum. I got a used Skõda for less than 5K that has far more space in it and on which I can change parts on my own (good luck repairing your own tesla or even getting information on how to fix it in the first place).

[@zelenskysboot361]

I recently watched a video about a Tesla coolant inlet broke off on the battery pack. Tesla said he needed a new battery pack.

[@olik136]

not to mention that there is a certain environmental impact associated with you having to work- the CO2 caused by me having to earn 40k seems significant- but very hard to calculate. The video is not about that though

[@ztyhurst]

As cool as that sounds I haven't found a Skoda dealer in Virginia yet.

[@mjc0961]

Yep, reparability is a huge problem with Tesla. Even when I eventually get an EV, it's probably not going to be a Tesla for that exact reason.

[@mjc0961]

@@zelenskysboot361 Yep, that was probably Rich Rebuilds. He did another video recently, same kind of crap from Tesla. Tesla wanted to replace the entire battery pack for $22,500, but Rich's shop opened it up, replaced just two modules of it, and got the car working again for 75% less.

[@standandeliver8376]

I'll be honest, I really want to keep my petrol car and I'm resisting electric. However, it's really good to hear/see some actual unbiased data. It makes a refreshing change from uninformed people telling me that electric is better for the environment without anything to back it up.

[@fiftysquiggly]

It's really funny to see this comment because I am the exact opposite lol. I really want to get rid of my gas car and get an electric car - not even necessarily for environmental reasons (though that's a plus) but for convenience. I am a city driver and I love the idea of just charging at home/my work place which a.) costs less than fueling up, and b.) means I don't have to go to the gas station every week or two. That coupled with lower maintenance needs and EVs are just so much more convenient for me. The problem is the upfront cost and bad EV incentives here.

[@bcamping1]

As he said cars are bad for the enviroment. Keep your current car but also get an electric bicycle.

[@tarstarkusz]

Whenever you hear the word "green" understand you are being propagandized. Green is marketing wank and has no definition whatsoever. There is no committee deciding who can put "green" on their device. What you are getting here is EXTREMELY biased. It is assuming only co2 emissions when it comes to "the environment" (another weasel word)/ Of course, all of this ignoring those of us who cannot drive an electric car under any circumstances because we cannot charge them (those of us who live in the city). They also completely ignore the cost. Even the model 3 sells at an average price of more than 50 thousand dollars. They are just assuming that everyone can afford to just plop down 50k dollars and pay the insurance.

[@Caligiant]

I personally hate that "better for the environment" is the first argument people make for getting an ev over petrol. Being a car enthusiast, I would argue first that newer EVs offer a unique driving experience with it's availability of instant torque, The acceleration even on a lower end model is phenomenal, and having the center of gravity really low will boost your confidence and aggressiveness on some fun corners and turns. It helps too that it's cheaper to fuel up. It does suck that it will take longer to charge vs filling a tank. But improvents to fast charging network is accelerating, and tbh, unless your travelling far on the regular, that's what the nightime is for.

[@tarstarkusz]

@@Caligiant There is no economic rationalism case for EVs. They are WAY too much money upfront. Guys like engineering explained always compare these expensive EVs with equally or more expensive petrol machines. If EVs really catch on and capture a significant portion of the market, electricity rates will skyrocket.

[@1mlb704]

THIS is the breakdown I needed to see. I'm not really pro or anti anything in this case, but I've been skeptical of EV's. I'm still not ready to buy one yet for myself, but I feel more confident in them as they will eventually become the standard (and the technology will get better, as it has for ICE's over the years). I still feel good driving my '07 Corolla S 5-speed with 197k miles and it's 40 mpg back and forth to work everyday, and my '18 Colorado Z71 V6 gets a decent 23-24 mpg doing truck stuff. I'm not exactly a tree hugger but I do care about the environment and the future of clean energy, so this gives me confidence in the direction we're going in. Thanks Jason!

[@madattaktube]

I'm glad to have seen this comment, it's always nice to see someone with a balanced perspective on the internet!

[@1mlb704]

@@madattaktube thank you! I really wish we as a society would be more open minded, critical, and objective about things while being able to engage with other people's opinions respectably.

[@dutchylt]

Yeah, and my Trans Am will pass anything but a gas station.

[@hunchanchoc8418]

But when gasoline and diesel are phased-out (almost) and the government suffer the MASSIVE loss in tax revenue, I wonder how much electricity will then end up costing per kWh...?

[@theomnipresent1]

I'm rocking a '07 Corolla 5-speed as well with 230k miles excellent gas mileage. 23-24 for a truck is pretty good, I would love a pickup that could get 30 highway.

[@methos-ey9nf]

My biggest hesitation at the moment is lack of maintenance/repair infrastructure. I like that there's no dealer to buy a Tesla but I hate that they don't provide parts and clearly don't want to support independent repair shops. Yes I know EV's have a lot less to maintain but there's still suspension, HVAC, battery cooling, and if you get in a fender bender body work.

[@Pandadancypant]

My main irk is the wires. I work with a lot of small electronics and the most common major problem I see is that the wiring doesn't stand the test of time. I happens on normal cars all the time I'm super sus about quality parts being used and the entire vehicle not being a iphone on wheel.

[@Hensleytheultimatehoundsman]

I don’t like how essentially everything is computer controlled in them,

[@joeisawesome540]

@@Hensleytheultimatehoundsman so is all modern cars

[@Hensleytheultimatehoundsman]

@@joeisawesome540 I know I hate it in all cars too but Tesla is worse with it

[@SpankeyMcCheeks]

Having all this as an excel spreadsheet where you could plug in your own current mpg, yearly miles driven, co2 emissions/mile/km etc would be a very valuable tool for people who are unsure of what to do.

[@ssllhh100]

wrong jason, excel spread sheet is more like jason cammisa

[@SpankeyMcCheeks]

@@FixingWithFriends If you do, could you share them? Would be very interesting to fiddle around with.

[@mechmat12345]

Great idea, you should make one.

[@JerryRigEverything]

Great video. 👍

[@real_andrii]

You took time to comment instead of making next part of Hummer transformation video?! Shame on you 😜

[@destituteanddecadent9106]

Damn didn't realize you watched this channel. I have your dbrand case, cool stuff.

[@jorelplay8738]

What a nice surprise seeing you here

[@Bhaidostyaar]

You could've swapped a duramax in your hummer

[@arielshaffiq7944]

Car is car and car break

[@ninsiimajonathan3855]

This is a PHD level research concept squeezed in less than 15 minutes. You are a genius. We need more of you on this planet

[@goatsplitter]

"So in summary, cars are bad for the environment. Amazing!" Lol perfect

[@Z-Ack]

Technically people are bad for the environment. And the amount of people production is at an all time high. With the new abortion laws and hoe bags popping out kids left and right without any means to support them and pos dudes knocking up women and running off to do it again to another women.. people are killing the planet.. china had the right idea….

[@thunderbug8640]

​@@Z-Ack China have since abandoned that though due to population imbalances it caused.

[@NanClaymore]

Since 82% of the environment is plants and CO2 is good for plants, I'm not sure how we can say "cars are bad for the environment". Who determines what's good and bad? Hundreds of millions of years ago, before animals existed, plants began a process of destroying the environment by overusing atmospheric carbon. Is it possible that over hundreds of millions of years, nature engineered a type of life form that could dig down and release the trapped carbon and put the atmosphere back into its correct state?

[@NanClaymore]

@@Z-Ack I'm glad you started with the word "Technically" so I knew in advance I was going to be reading something with a lot of technical information, dense with facts and no speculation or straight up word barf from a dumbo.

[@kevintkeefe]

Electric Bicycles!

[@cgberz]

I've been having a blast with my 1st gen Insight (2000, manual trans) and am on the regular getting 64 mpg. Amazing little vehicle!

[@ruinedlasagna]

That's my dream daily, my 02 Saab 9-3 viggen can at best get 35mpg, but being a performance car it's usually closer to 28mpg haha

[@jsleeio]

That's quite amazing! even my most efficient motorbike (2007 BMW F650GS) only gets ~60mpg, and a whole lot of bikes are significantly worse than that

[@calebwold2795]

I have 2 first gen insights and love them! Also worth noting is how long they last. Mine have 245,000 miles and 282,000 miles. Both still run great!

[@ruinedlasagna]

@@calebwold2795 Mind sharing one? 😂

[@0Rookie0]

How does it do on hills/mountain roads? I'd like one but fear 70mph uphill is not really its thing haha.

[@bikebudha01]

This is the single best, clearest, most informative video on this subject ever made. Please share with everyone you know. Dam nice work man!!!

[@JohSno]

Thank you for including metric conversions.

[@Mac-tw3zu]

everyone's favorite unit of mass, the mazda mx5

[@Channy132]

I only drive about 5000 miles/yr (less recently) so I'm struggling to justify a new car of any kind at the mo even though I really want to go electric

[@EngineeringExplained]

True! If your milage is low, offsetting production emissions takes a very long time to do (unless you buy used)!

[@P_As_C_Al]

It depends on how long your average commute is. If your only driving 30 miles a day, a car with a smaller battery than a m3 would be an option. Smaller battery -> less emissions during production + less „stuff“ So the break even Point would be mich earlier

[@christopherhamilton5557]

Shop used EV’s, like Nissan Leaf maybe?

[@stubones]

I’d order a model S Plaid n a heart beat but hey it’s $140k out of my budget.

[@trevorWilkinson]

I went from about 12,000 miles/yr to 6,000 miles per year due to changing job which requires half the commute. I think if I was still doing the 12 I'd have bought an electric car by now. My partner went from about 12,000 to about 2,000 due to working from home 4/5 days because of the pandemic. And so my priority on an EV is now waiting until my car dies, which could be a while. I'm starting to think the real way to help the environment is to somehow make working from home/without the commute the default way to work. The priority will probably change if my partner is made to go into the office 5 days a week again.

[@CarToneHK]

So this is incredibly mileage dependent and as someone who live in a small city, 12k km per year is already an insane amount let alone 12k miles, making old petrol burning cars greener than swapping to electric as our power grid is less green even when compared to US, thank you Jason

[@karasene2091]

True, but Jason is American and this was made with the average American in mind, and we drive a lot, even in cities. I put 20k miles on my TDI last year

[@markm0000]

This part always gets glossed over. In America on the road there’s no way you can have millions dollar nuclear power plants in the middle of nowhere.

[@jimmyjimbo1955]

The scale of the US is actually insane too, I think I saw somewhere where in 6 hours you can visit multiple parts of the UK but in 6 hours if your driving in Texas, you are still in Texas.

[@Belrmar]

Electric city car might be a good answer. Small battery and great efficiency

[@AzuriteReverb]

@@jimmyjimbo1955 Texan here, can confirm. I took a road trip with some friends to Colorado and it was like 9hrs I think driving through Texas lol

[@menelaos007]

Hey I got a question. Do the 10 tons of emissions only include Tesla’s part of the production or does it also include the extraction of all the resources mined & produced before?

[@tedtyler9336]

great point

[@Vezirid]

And what do you think?

[@n0steeze]

1000% only includes Tesla’s part of the production. The statistics used in this video make the gap seem much larger than it really is. It's almost giving me "big electric paid Jason a nice chunk to make this video" vibes.

[@Zygersaf]

Do you know what, I never actually considered the volume of the Petrol. Always thought about emissions of manufacturing the electric for Evs vs emissions from ICE cars. But actually the process of making the fuel, and the fuel then being shipped around the world on giant ships and using diesel trucks makes a big difference as well!

[@usa-ev]

Yes, every time I would fill up I would think about the entire tank's worth of petrol going into the atmosphere. I much happier now that I've switched to electric.

[@idratherberiding3456]

The fossil fuel industry has been working on THEIR sustainability for decades. They are pros in marketing to the public. So much so that some people defend them like their lives depended on it, although they do not make any money out of the income the fossil fuel industry gets.

[@Ryan-lk4pu]

I actually thought its was impressive that you could travel around the world more than 8 times on so little fuel haha

[@Redmenace96]

@@Ryan-lk4pu Yeah! When he said, equivalent mass to 22 of these cars, over 200k miles? I thought, "Well that seems small." In fact, I find it unbelievable and will be looking into the numbers. 200k is a decade of ownership, and liquid fuel is pretty heavy!

[@westonstaufenberg7278]

@@usa-ev i don't think you should be so happy about your choice unless the grid changed to mostly nuclear energy

[@danielchin8073]

Thanks for this, Jason. Looks like it still makes sense to keep my 21 year old car that gets 37mpg until it dies then probably replace with used electric assuming the market's there. Great to see it in numbers.

[@webx135]

You can speed up the "until it dies" process with an aggressive tune or some mods. ;)

[@ProfessorOzone]

NO! It's better from an ENVIRONMENTAL impact point of view. There are still many other points of view to consider.

[@danielchin8073]

@@ProfessorOzone of course. But by the time it does die, I expect the economics to catch up. And I'm driven primarily by the economics, not the environmental considerations. If I can get solar energy for charging a used EV, it'll be great all around. We're just not there today.

[@tkello001]

When it "dies" the best solution is to repair/replace what dies. The "oh it needs a $900 repair it's trash now" mentality is how the enviro crowd gets to pretend superiority.

[@danielchin8073]

@@tkello001 my metric for when it dies is when the unibody is too rusted through to be safe. Pretty much everything else is reasonably able to be fixed.

[@horsedrag2468]

My 50-year-old truck likely saved 15 vehicles from being built, that use materials transported from around the world, and recycled using even more resources and adding more pollution. It should run for another 50 years and is fixable, reliable, safe, and economical.

[@J4Zonian]

@ho The average ICV lasts 12 years. So I guess to balance yours, 4 ICVs broke down & were taken to the dump within a few days after they were bought. Unless it’s the Ship of Theseus, it’s extremely unlikely to last another 50. You should hope it doesn’t because it’s causing climate catastrophe & contributing to the fossil-fuel-caused death of 10 million people a year, as well as 100 million illnesses of a hundred kinds at least. People generally save hundreds to a thousand or more dollars a year by switching to an EV. They’re much safer than ICVs, & take a lot less time & money for maintenance.

[@rob21]

There is always someone needing and willing to buy your old car though, which changes everything. Unless the car is "totaled" and removed from service.

[@mjc0961]

If the car is totaled and removed from service, the question is irrelevant anyway. You've gone from the question of "is it environmentally friendly to buy a new car even though my current car still works" to the simple fact of "I have absolutely no choice, I need a new car because my current one is dead"

[@rob21]

@@mjc0961 Did you miss the word "Unless" ?

[@Makatea]

In the very near future you'll get next to nothing for a used ICE-car, unless it's collectible. The change is going faster than you think: More than 50% of all new cars in Norway are BEVs, 15% in Germany with shrinking ICE-car immatriculations and a very strong upward trend from year to year.

[@rob21]

@@Makatea That is not true in the USA. In fact, all used cars have gone up in price.

[@Gilamang]

I guess the thing to work through is whether your choice to sell your car and buy a new one will actually result in a new car being built, or whether your failure to sell would cause someone else who would have bought used to buy new. If your refusal to sell causes someone else to buy new, build emissions doesn’t matter except to the extent it differs between new vehicles. And I would think that would logically mean that you should be buying lowest running emission car (new) and letting someone else buy your used car, if you want to optimize for emissions.

[@cybertrk]

Finally a video I can send to people I argue with on the internet

[@brandonboatner9952]

This is gonna be top comment

[@allowa5220]

Most Toyota engine can out perform electric cars in the environment and usability

[@GAATL_Viet]

@@allowa5220 do you any source for that statement?

[@edwingonzalez5610]

how about emissions to make that electricity, stop arguing on the internet lol

[@Daniel-cc9tj]

@@edwingonzalez5610 he took that into account in his calculations, did you even watch the vid?

[@Synchromesh123]

There's a lot of questions here that are completely unanswered. What if I drive my car very little? I own 3 different vehicles and put maybe 3-4K miles on each per year (if that). It will take me a loooooong time to achieve the same CO2 measurements if I bought 3 electric cars instead. We're talking well over a decade here. All without even going into the economics of how much money it will take to buy 3 Teslas. Now, the other thing you didn't mention enough is a lovely scenario of replacing your battery. Yes, some of them last 200K and some of them will last 20K because defective batteries do happen. What's the cost to the environment to create a new battery again? That's going to nearly double your EV emissions. Of course a car engine can go bad too but even assuming you're replacing an entire engine the environmental damage is waaaaay lower even if you throw the transmission in as well. Oh, and I absolutely do not trust a single number coming from Tesla. Considering Elon's propensity to blatantly lie (FSD comes to mind) I wouldn't be shocked at all if those numbers were generated in some very special ways to make Tesla look better. Let's wait until multiple independent sources confirm them at the very least. Then there's another small elephant in the room. Current figure for recycled lithium batteries in the world stands at 5%. That's best case scenario. Which means there's a good chance your depleted battery will end up in a landfill. Extracting those rare earth materials back from it is a very costly complicated process and right now it's cheaper to buy fresh metals instead. Which is what most manufacturers are doing. So then the question is this - how much damage to the environment does the battery create in a landfill? Not in CO2 but in ground contamination?

[@eDoc2020]

DIY folks have a better handle on used EV batteries than Tesla. Usually a battery which fails early will only have a couple of bad cells; replacing the just bad cell or even the entire submodule is a much greener approach than replacing the entire battery. For reference a Tesla battery pack seems to be made of 16 modules, each with around 450 individual cells. There's also a thriving market for secondhand EV batteries for use in home energy storage, DIY vehicle conversions, and other projects. Here even substantially degraded cells can live a second life where the demands are not as great. Oh, one more thing. Not every electric car is an expensive Tesla with a gigantic battery. Hopefully as EV adoption continues manufacturers will offer different models with different battery sizes and prices. Why pay for and drag around a heavy 250 mile battery if you only need 100 miles of range?

[@avienated]

Good points, well made.

[@joshchu]

Think about it, my 29yo petrol groceries getter only runs 5km a week on average, at that consumption/pollution rate me switching from it to anything newly built would only impacts the environment even more.

[@sjorsangevare]

So you would fall in the red portion of the graph, got it.

[@pilotavery]

It's based off of the average miles that you drive per year. If you drive one mile a year it will take a thousand years to make up for it but if you drive a million miles a year it's gonna be more like a week to make up for it.

[@spike_spencer]

Sounds like you could ditch the car and just walk or bike that distance in a week.

[@chrisroberts1440]

@@spike_spencer You couldn't walk or cycle with the same amount of groceries, you could make several trips of course, but then the time penalty really stacks up. I cycled to/from work for a couple of years and would pick up food three times a week on the way home, but as the store was close to work that meant I was lugging the extra weight ten miles home. It also only worked because we had a staff canteen and I ate my main meal there at lunchtime so only needed enough for a light meal at home in the evening.

[@joshchu]

@@spike_spencer in an ideal flat world, sure. but in real life that few kilometers a week could be a touge run. lol and I sure ain't carry my beg of rice uphill.

[@Ahaggah]

I don't get why no one ever talks about modding old cars for better fuel economy. Worst case scenario you're looking at longer rods for increased compression ratio, cams with less overlap, and a tune. That's a fraction of the ecological cost of producing a new car for getting a fuel economy that justifies not ever buying a car as long as it's running well.

[@rexleehe7633]

Because that's not profitable

[@thewingedpotato6463]

It's kind of a losing battle in the long run. You will eventually reach a point where the cost of repair/upgrade is more than the cost of a new EV. The main issue is trusting the mechanic to NOT rip you off every step of the way if you aren't mechanically inclined or willing enough to DIY everything.

[@difflocktwo]

Mod it to electric.

[@tron121]

@@difflocktwo can't wait for this to be less expensive. also batteries are bulky, hard to pack in 300mi of range without the batts being integral to the car design.

[@difflocktwo]

@@tron121 I just need like 10-20 miles per day. My ebike has less than 2 kWh and the limiting factor is that I'm gonna get pretty bored sitting on that thing hour after hour.

[@JerryDLTN]

I drive a Chevy Cavalier that was built in 12/1997. It was my Mom's car that she bought new. I WANT a new car but I don't NEED a new car. This car has been one of the most dependable cars I've ever had.

[@richierauscher5131]

Got my Model Y and Tesla Solar in June, and have already put over 7k miles on it. This combo is a killer! Power generating and charging at home makes the environmental payoff come that much quicker!

[@waterloo123100]

Your full of it you know

[@brantwedel]

@@waterloo123100 full of electrons?

[@milchomarkov8158]

💨

[@richierauscher5131]

@@waterloo123100 I’m afraid I don’t follow. What are you talking about?

[@X7rocks]

I'm gonna keep my 93 miata forever. Along with collecting as many vehicles as possible.

[@jareknowak8712]

Right choice.

[@milchomarkov8158]

Smart guy

[@pixeldoc7119]

As "much" vehicles?

[@X7rocks]

@@pixeldoc7119 what are you talking about.

[@poodlescone9700]

You can only drive one at any given time so having one or many cars makes little difference from an emissions standpoint.

[@dalechenoweth915]

Option 5: keep current car, spend Tesla money investing in a plot of vacant land and farm timber on it. Timber payback starts from 5 years, carbon capture offsets some of your extra mpg emissions from day one and increases over time.

[@RobertGoley]

Interesting option. Bamboo would probably be better as it pulls more carbon in a shorter time.

[@000Virtual]

@@RobertGoley oh ok a Bamboo skateboard

[@jonahfastre]

Me still driving a ‘69 beetle, nah I’m fine

[@mikevale3620]

A '69 Beetle is no interstate cruiser, assume you make other arrangements for anything over 100 miles.

[@jxhern22]

Never getting rid of my 2000 Corolla 5 speed manual…dead simple and reliable😉

[@christineayres7199]

Ive got a 2007 Mitsubishi Colt 114000 miles and still goes well , electric cars are a scam

[@mikevale3620]

@ Juan...But is it safe?

[@jxhern22]

@@mikevale3620 True…definitely not as safe as today’s cars. Airbags check, seatbelts check, crumple zones not so much

[@christineayres7199]

@@mikevale3620 LOL most likely not but a lot more reliable

[@e.and.f]

It's such a complicated topic. I've been really trying to do research and find any kind of soilid answer for this exact question. Ev vs icev. Specifically for environmental impact. Every single study i see leaves out important details. The more I look into things the more factors i find. The only constant is corporate capitalist consumerism being the core of the issue. On every front. Planned obsolescence, poor repairability, the system we've created where i cant even blame anyone for just buying a new thing and throwing the old one out. It makes way more sense in our current structure. If we really want to adress climate/economic/human issues. It has to start from a core level. We have to stop treating the symptoms and adress the disease.

[@J4Zonian]

@e. Yes! The cause is a complex psychological condition best called Wetiko disease. We need to recognize that & begin treating it. (We also need to get almost everybody out of cars & onto feet, bicycles, public transit including high speed rail.) "Seeing Wetiko: on Capitalism, Mind Viruses, and Antidotes for a World in Transition” Alnoor Ladha, Martin Kirk.

[@MorganTrvolt]

Engine oil must be counted. Oil also has environmental impact through extraction. Refining alone cost so much power that for each gallon, an ev could get 15-20 miles of range per gallon of fuel refined. If you wonder why they stopped reporting the energy usage of refineries, you have your explanation right there.

[@mjc0961]

It is funny how many factors that get left out of gasoline powered cars to both make things simpler and give the EVs the biggest hill to climb, and the EVs still handily win in the long term. The more gasoline powered car factors you start adding back in, the wider that gap becomes. Not just engine oil, don't forget all the other oils and fluids. Oh, and the plastic containers they all come in, those aren't good for the environment either. And there's stuff in oil filters and fuel filters too.

[@Steamrick]

Refining and transport of the actual fuel is included in the emissions, as stated in the video. If your engine oil usage is more than 'replace once every couple years', you should have a mechanic look at that. It should be completely insignificant compared to gas consumption.

[@dresdonfury]

Great explanation as always. Liking the line graphs and how you’ve directly addressed many of the common gripes or misconceptions when comparing ev to ice.

[@markallen4514]

Thanks for doing this. I particularly appreciate you anticipating common objections. This came out exactly as I would have expected intuitively, but so much better to have some actual data.

[@joseflackner4541]

I am getting 45mpg on my 23 year old car... Also i think Tesla's numbers for their production are a bit optimistic.

[@InternetDude]

You're not suggesting Tesla / Elon might fudge some numbers? LOL!!

[@gamertherapyconsoleyoursel5804]

I swapped from a 12mpg Ford Taurus to a Nissan Leaf about 7 years ago, and it's been a dream. I've saved so much on gas and maintenance.

[@brantwedel]

The "stuff" (cobalt) is also used in oil refining

[@toyotaprius79]

To wash out the sulphur

[@jamesv4262]

@@toyotaprius79 in much lower quantities

[@B4ud3r]

Most Batteries wont use Cobalt in the future

[@brantwedel]

@@jamesv4262 true, did some math, looks like 8% as much per 30mpg car over 200k miles, compared to Tesla's (2018) avg cobalt use per car of 10lbs

[@entertainedeclectus5140]

@@jamesv4262 True, but much higher quantities of oil are refined than lithium is mined.

[@paulaxford6754]

"For folks that prefer metric", noting that 95% of the world's population uses metric. Good video though, Jason. I'll note that my electricity is ballpark 80% renewable which helps a whole lot.

[@ItsTheNada]

Personal transports makes up about 14% of annual emissions. Big companies need to get their acts together before telling us to pay through our arses for new products

[@josephgaviota]

I'm keeping my 14-year-old Acura. It gets ≈ 20 mpg. When working I bought a tank of gas every Monday and Thursday. As a retired person, I buy gas once a month. I use so little gasoline, that I think getting rid of my perfectly good car would be foolish-even from an environmental standpoint.

[@mrlilmatt123]

*"According to Telsa'* ... eeeek!

[@usa-ev]

He doubled it just to be safe, LOL!

[@thetrainhopper8992]

There is also the question of whether or not the grid can even handle having the power needed to charge 1-2 cars per household shooting through it. Wires can only handle so much power and even with charging at night, a power grid built in the 1950s isn't going to be able to handle the spike in power. So the solution isn't electric cars, it's not needing cars in the first places. We can build suburbs like we did on the 1920s and pay for a robust public transit system. It would be far more efficient from an environmental and economic standpoint.

[@user-qf6yt3id3w]

It's worth pointing out the figures you're using come from people who are trying to sell you a new car or from academics who will tend to prefer electric cars to fossil ones for environmental reasons and get given a cookie each time they invent an argument to encourage the transition or cancelled if they produce one which discourages it.

[@EngineeringExplained]

Hence why I provided a scenario with double those emissions, in which the EV still wins out. And have referenced many academic sources prior: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bIPLpZyGmsuJsK8

[@user-qf6yt3id3w]

@@EngineeringExplained How do you know the safety factor is 2? I think there's systematic bias in the figures when it comes to environmental stuff. In fact that's obvious because the media will always say either 'The science is settled! All True Scientists agree. Any that don't aren't True Scientists' (cf No True Scotsman) but they also say 'New research shows that things are Worse Than Expected'. It's ratchet mechanism and it only goes one way. So that new research might increase the 2x safety factor to 200x or 2,000,000x. It's just a matter of time and you don't know how many clicks the ratchet has made. And the NGOs, media and mulitnational organisations driving that ratchet are far more powerful than any government. Most governments are rubber stamping their preferred policies and the ones that don't get slated by the media and then lose an election.

[@korianderbadger]

I'd like to see an acknowledgement of the alternatives to car use when possible. Massive amounts of emissions come from road construction and maintenance. Not everyone can reduce their car usage in the US especially, but it is possible, esp if our government commits to it

[@johnnyblue4799]

A few more lockdowns and we don't need cars and roads anymore.

[@volvo09]

With international shipping outdoing vehicle emissions by quite a bit (and polluting more pristine environments while they do it) i have a hard time calling cars a problem. We have emissions equipment, ships just belch out soot from bunker fuel / heavy oil. The govt and their industry buddies want to point fingers at us to keep eyes off them. If you don't believe me, just look it up. Shipping is much dirtier.

[@chainringcalf]

It really depends which portions of the US you're talking about. But yes, definitely an option for some.

[@TheKaylich]

Can you elaborate on the alternatives? I mean air and sea are clearly worse for sure and what else is there besides Rail? Hyperloop stuff would be nice but it's clearly not as easy as Elon let us believe it would be. Edit: Im talking traveling long distance, not going to the mall in a big city.

[@stubones]

Jeez that’s simplistic. 🤦‍♂️ how are people going to get around freely and in a manner that suits them?

[@josephgrueter890]

I drive a four cylinder 99 Accord, and plan to as long as possible. However, my calculations are much different because I live 2 miles from where I work and don't do much recreational driving. So between work, taking kids to school, and some weekend driving here and there my yearly mileage is somewhere around 4k miles, and that might drop by 2k when my kids go to a closer school as they age up.

[@BrokenCarbide]

I got all excited thinking that I'd beat the system with a 30-year-old VW diesel that was more environmentally friendly than buying a new car every 9.8 years, until I remembered to check CO2/L burned of diesel fuel. Turns out it's only greener if you assume that otherwise I would be buying a new car every 8.4 years, and that's just wasteful.

[@ztyhurst]

I would have also like to see some cost/benefit analysis as well, because as much as we all want to help reduce consumption of "stuff", some of us have to help the environment on a budget and a $35K+ Tesla may not be an option.

[@themeach011]

I believe that the amount of miles that you put on a year is the most important factor. Also if u can't charge at home don't buy an ev yet.

[@usa-ev]

It's a hard question to answer because everyone's finances are different. If you look at the true "cost" of ICE vehicles, it's horrifying and worth way more than $35K. But you probably mean what are cheaper options vs new EVs so some come to mind are: A. Used EVs - starting around $5K in CA B. Public transportation - even diesel powered C. E-Bikes - can go a long way and easily these days D. Carpool Every mile not driven in an ICE car helps. You could also take an offset strategy, and just determine how you could best help the environment in general. You could get your local governments to focus on environmental things like electric buses even if though you couldn't afford one maybe they can and even if you can't take the bus just having it green is good, and you can still make an impact.

[@dstln]

Yes, not everyone has available funds or financing to buy a new EV. There are also used EVs, hybrids, PHEVs, etc. Many old ICE card start becoming very costly to properly maintain after some time as well. It would be outside of the scope of such a video to calculate every possible situation for everyone.

[@brettself]

1997 Saturn SC1. Owned. Already manufactured. 85,000 miles. Relatively low income owner. 31 city, 37 highway. Drive less than 10,000 miles per year. Work at home. Cook at home.

[@andrewbismire6538]

The batteries aren't recycled, Europe says the same thing but in fact just stores most used batteries in empty fields because nobody will accept lithium ion battery waste.

[@patrickharper1798]

Redwood materials does, also Li Cycle. Check it out.

[@bluenycom]

That's because it's cheaper to make new than recycle at this time, kind of like plastic and glass bottles here in the US. At least the metal ingredients are still there to be extracted when it becomes profitable to do so. As usual, it's all about money/cost/profit.

[@heydudewhatsup]

There are places that recycle them including Tesla. It's cheaper to recycle than mine new material.... pretty basic logic.

[@brucehawkinson8901]

Andrew , Li cycle here in Gilbert arizona recycles theses batteries . Also li-cycle has a facility in Magdeburg Germany with facilities in France ,Norway and Italy coming. Your statement is incorrect and out of date👍

[@m5s10]

"Over 200.000 miles, the life of the car..." Meanwhile I'm driving a 350.000 miles car still going strong.

[@N1withaskillet]

I don't think 'saving the environment' is more important to the average consumer than the cost of owning and maintaining necessary transport for our needs. Most people can't afford the related costs like taxes, repairs, and insurance premiums linked to owning a new(er) car, whatever it's fuel source. Fuel cost alone is barely a drop in the bucket of ownership costs in the long term. Reliability in cost and function are the most important factors for people on a budget. 'Saving the enviroment' is a legislative problem for the governments allowing all of the pollution to continue not a problem any individual consumer could honestly hope to impact through consumption.

[@easygoingdude9990]

Damn Jason I am super impressed with the camera work and editing. Did you do it all yourself?

[@EngineeringExplained]

Very kind, thanks! Yep, solo job!

[@difflocktwo]

@@EngineeringExplained Impressive. 10x smaller channels already outsource editing these days.

[@easygoingdude9990]

@@EngineeringExplained well done!

[@mikevale3620]

@@EngineeringExplained It also helps that you are a personable and engaging presenter.

[@mionszu]

Meanwhile me and my Yaris that take 4L/100km (58? mpg): P A T H E T I C

[@ApothecaryTerry]

Even my 3.4 Porsche uses only 5.8L/100km on long journeys. There is always the big conclusion that Americans buy silly cars! Admittedly I get 8.5L/100km most of the time because it's a 3.4 Porsche so I drive it like one...but this is a video about environmental stuff so we can ignore that for now right? ☺ Seriously though, driving less and driving more efficiently are huge factors, hence the old Top Gear M3 vs Prius MPG test which makes an extremely valuable point.

[@mionszu]

@@ApothecaryTerry Yeah, I often drive my 1.4 D4D Yaris 100+ km at average 100 KPH (150 max) and it's 3.5L/100km. Once i borrowed friends Challenger and with the same style/pace of driving it got 11-13L/100km (i know it has bigger engine, more power and this beautiful sound). So yeah, 'Murrica is freedom, 'Murrica is power!

[@ApothecaryTerry]

@@mionszu It's also true that if you drove the Yaris as fast as it can go and followed it in the Challenger, the Yaris would probably use more fuel though, to be fair. In that case the Yaris would be more fun too though... My 981CS is more efficient than my sister's 1.6 Megane. With less wine I'd be making a point, so I'll try...if we all drove less, drove more efficiently, maintained our cars properly and researched the best option before buying then that would be great. Also worth repeating...driving less. I'd rather drive a Porsche once a week than a Leaf once a day to be honest (so I do). Really we just need fusion power and hydrogen cars, a Mirai would be lovely.

[@pit32]

I wish I got that mpg in my yaris. I get 28 mpg average in my work commute. I blame having to be stuck in traffic in my 60mph highway.

[@cjones7854]

Honestly, consider riding a bike if you can. Better for you as long as your route air quality isn't horrible and better for your pocket book. It takes getting used to and it takes some new know how and planning but I generally love it.

[@valerio95valerio]

So in Europe where the average miles per year is 7.5k it takes a lot more time to impact less on the environment by buying an electric car

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

Except theres alot more diesel use in Europe which has it's own unique emission problems such as Nox.

[@valerio95valerio]

@@chickenfishhybrid44 yes, but I don't know if there is a really big difference since semitruck are diesel powered in America too and the same for heavy tractors that combined make the vast majority of emission

[@GMTron]

Is it just me, or electric cars encourage a longer ownership time to make sense owning it? If we replace them at ~4 years intervals, is this actually much worse than owning 25/35mpg cars due to polution caused by manufacturing EV's?

[@GMTron]

@Wan My concern is regarding the battery manufacturing and disposal for the used ones. From my knowledge, is quite challenging to recycle li-ion batteries....

[@android04]

It depends on how much you drive. If you are replacing the gas cars every 4 years as well but only drive 1000 miles per year, then you will be contributing less CO2 to the environment (not considering the other "stuff").

[@rdizzy1]

@@GMTron Modern newer recycling methods can achieve like 50-80% recycle rate for lithium ion batteries. Not bad at all. The government could easily get people to recycle them, just pay people for them, like pop cans.

[@mjc0961]

I would argue that replacing cars at ~4 year intervals is bad no matter what kind of car you buy. Unless you drive a crapton of miles every year, why are you replacing your car every 4 years? They last a lot longer than that if you take good care of them. The thought of EVs encouraging longer ownership never occurred to me because I've never seen gas cars as so disposable.

[@marcelsmeding513]

By keep driving your old car it's not just the co2 of the production that's saved. It's also the co2 of demolition, and also co2 that generated by the production of parts, transport of those parts. Saved co2 mining and transport of raw matirials for that parts. Etc.

[@dstln]

Scrapping a car takes about a minute by a crane. The metal gets sorted and recycled.

[@marcelsmeding513]

@@dstln And those meltals melt them selfs, to be used again? And surprice surprice, cars are not made entirely out of metals. Think about plastics, glass and electronics.

[@IntenseBlue318]

you're not taking into consideration any of the physical damage being done to make an electric car. things like strip mining for lithium can't just be brushed off.

[@Brian-om2hh]

But after decades of the big oil companies mining cobalt, it does pale into insignificance somewhat. The oil companies need cobalt to remove sulphur during the refining process......

[@boban250]

It wasn't until the metric consumption chart when I realised this is talking purely to US audience. With the 2019 EU average consumption being at 45 mpg US (5.2 l/100km) it definitely doesn't make sense to change :D

[@Omgazombie2k]

Electric vehicles are being pushed hard even though they’re aren’t an ethical or environmentally friendly alternative, we already have net 0 emission fuels for combustion engines but they aren’t being pushed. Sugarcane ethanol and Synthetic fuel from Porsche… companies just want an excuse to sell more expensive electric vehicles even though most countries can’t support full electrification nor are any set up with environmentally friendly electrical systems either

[@chriskimber7179]

@@Omgazombie2k large cities, as they have in Europe, are not just dealing with climate change issues but mostly with air quality and noise pollution. Switching to EV certainly addresses this while synthetic fuel doesn't improve local air quality nearly as much as EV

[@96Lauriz]

You gotta look into how EU numbers looks if you wanna compare anything. Electricity grid is much cleaner, especially in Nordic countries. Also, you can charge your caro partly from solar in summer. So, it does make sense to change, with our progressively changing grid to renewables. Besides that, some EV's could in future act as V2G (vehicle to grid), so pretty soon they could reduce and help with grid peaks while standing still (they do 90% of the time). In EU, gas/diesel is also much more expensive than US, and some places in EU electricity is much cheaper than US, so you could also say tha economically (also maintenace costs), it makes insane sense to switch to EV, unless you drive so little that bicycle could cover your annual commutes. In Denmark, its about 4-5 times cheaper to drive EV from running costs, already now.

[@Muskar2]

@@Omgazombie2k I'm not buying that argument at all. Land use is already a huge problem today, and dedicating even larger amounts of agriculture to fueling general transportation sounds very unsustainable. Synthetic fuel is also extremely energy inefficient, and thus inherently expensive. And all companies want to sell their stuff, that's just a nonsensical argument. A real reason electric vehicles are being pushed is because a lot of scientifically literate people have been pushing for it for about a decade. Alternative fuel sources are (rationally) for niche vehicles with special energy density requirements. BEV TCOs have potential to be far lower than ICEVs very soon.

[@Kraven83]

@@96Lauriz fuel and electricity costs are mainly driven by how much the individual governments decide to tax a single unit of energy. With a shift from petrol/diesel to electricity for private mobility, the taxes will follow and it will not be as cheap to recharge a BEV simply because taxes are unavoidable (the EU demands from each country strict rules about yearly debt increases and their nature)

[@MegaGeorge1948]

There are other realistic factors here that effect the practicality of owning a needed vehicle. How many people can afford to buy a new $50,000 electric sedan? What if someone needs a car or truck that has to do interstate driving (e.g. salesmen)? What about energy density of gasoline compared to an electric vehicle battery (i.e. travel range before refueling)? What about wasted time to refuel an electric vehicle to continue the journey, especially in the Winter where more power is needed to heat the cabin and use of the exterior lights lights? What about cost of refueling at a supercharger station (if you can find one close enough in Montana) where the cost per kilowatt is much higher than at a home garage? The emissions of a vehicle should be a minor consideration compared to other considerations in use of a needed vehicle. Economy of vehicle operation should be at the top of the list. Not how much CO2 (that plants, trees, and green stuff need) is emitted in a vehicle's operation.

[@brian7940]

I still argue....price. It is the number one reason for choice. Saving the environment is great. But money is the great divider. Avg Camry 25k, avg tesla 50k.

[@RamtheCowy]

i agree with the value proposition but solely on the price aspect alone there are cheaper Tesla's. I don't think they're convincing, don't get me wrong, and they're plagued with quality issues and such but they do exist. Besides there are alternatives if it suits your use case (like the Kia/Hyundai EVs)

[@linkgroundwalker]

Yeah when they can figure out a way to better create and store energy large scale and small then people will accept it. When I can charge my battery in the time it takes to fill my tank and leave the gas station. When I don’t have to shell out the cost of an ICE drivetrain for my battery because it can’t handle extreme temperatures and I don’t have a garage. When it can be as convenient as my ICE then it’ll be accepted.

[@EngineeringExplained]

Haha, this video is most definitely not about finances. Yes, do what's financially sound!

[@michaelblacktree]

And it's not just gas vs electric. Trading up to a more fuel efficient vehicle reaches a point of diminishing returns. Beyond that point, you're basically paying for bragging rights.

[@Noukz37]

FINALLY! Thank you for doing this video, properly so! :-) I've been telling my ignorant friends how driving around in my old diesel Panda Trueno (which does over 60 MPG) is better for the environment than getting a new car, of any kind.

[@nobodynobody3903]

you should consider, that your old diesel is not only emitting CO2, but a variety of other greenhouse gases and substances which have a negative effect on the environment. But an MPG of 60 is still way above average, so i guess its fine😄

[@Noukz37]

@@nobodynobody3903 I know about the NOx emissions, I'm sure my fellow countrymen are ingesting enough cancerous particles in other ways. XD I mean, I would like to have a different car (say a CR-Z for example) but I got what I got and I'll stick to it and maintain it well for the time being.

[@nobodynobody3903]

@@Noukz37 Seems legit to me🤷‍♂️😄

[@nevco8774]

@@Noukz37 At the end of the day switching to an EV requires more financial strain on folks who might not be able to afford the change rather than just using thoughts and prayers for the environment, unfortunately.

[@Noukz37]

@@FixingWithFriends I think so, but they're useless anyway XD

[@danielbiren4646]

My Civc is already 25 years old and has 43 mpg. I made the math and a Tesla Model 3 has to live 8 years, without changing the battery! And most Teslas are being sold by Leasing companies, where they never lease a car for 8 years. So I guess driving my old Civic is the most environment-friendly thing I can do.

[@dhruvsharmas]

My car gives 50 mpg.. im not buying anything for next decade lol

[@ayushk4099]

You drive Prius?

[@dhruvsharmas]

@@ayushk4099 nope.. vw ameo diesel with dsg

[@chocolatemilk2076]

Very good

[@speeddemon2262]

Makes sense just can't imagine shelling out almost $40k for a new car

[@EngineeringExplained]

That's fair!

[@trevorsgaragemusings]

The real question is does the environmental concern resonate with the buyer enough to take on new debt and/or expend savings. Unless the answer is yes, it's cheaper to keep the old car. Total cost of ownership needs to be lower to consider buying new, the lower the better to hit your break even point sooner. Your graphing only brought emissions into the picture, not personal total cost of ownership.

[@Kraven83]

Question: do you factor in the environmental impact and the amount of energy required to recycle the batteries? It's not trivial at all.

[@1969nitsuga]

Lithium... A nasty stuff. CO2... A natural component of the atmosphere used by plants to grow. Quite obvious.

[@Brian-om2hh]

That is probably the reason why the Volkswagen EV battery recycling plant feeds the residual charge from the batteries they receive, back into the recycling process to partially power it. The benefit is that both the cobalt and lithium content of the batteries can be recovered to around 90%, and reused. That's hardly trivial either......

[@cjeam9199]

@@1969nitsuga Lithium is a metal, it’s a natural component of the earth’s crust. It’s mostly inert, and is non-toxic. CO2 is a natural component of the atmosphere, and excess amounts is changing the climate and causing millions of deaths a year.

[@1969nitsuga]

@@cjeam9199 There is no evidence of those CO2 effects. What has been shown is a direct correlation in solar activity and spots as the trigger of climate change, which is cyclical in nature. The earth is actually colder than 20 years ago.

[@TrickShiftGarage]

Very very interesting. Now, the question is will someone that upgrades to an EV, keep it longer than 3 years?

[@zuranku]

They don't. What's funny is that over a longer period of time we will witness these junk cars struggle to be disposed. They are not as salvageable as older cars so in the end, the greatest option, is once again, keeping your old car.

[@Agent24Electronics]

I suspect a lot of them will ditch it as soon as the battery dies and they realise how much it costs for a new one.

[@nelsonw8848]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Some will and some won't. I don't have that much faith that people will suddenly change their car buying/leasing behavior just because it's an EV. But in the end the EV will be sold used and continue to be less CO2 polluting than an ICE vehicle.

[@nelsonw8848]

@@zuranku I don't think that will be the case. Rich Rebuilds/Electrified Garage recently had a video about replacing the bad cells in a Tesla battery pack for around $7000 vs Tesla's $23000. More battery recycling will come online and as EVs become more and more mainstream, these costs will go down.

[@nelsonw8848]

@@Agent24Electronics Did you watch the video? Jason just said that Tesla says that the battery retains 90% charge at 200k miles

[@Travelbeatcreations.official]

Driving 70K with my 1,4 turbo diesel car with just 0,38 or 3,8 liter for every 100 km since December last year, it makes totally sense to just keep my pocket rocket and drive it even more, parts are available and repairs can be done. Apart from that, i have two french cars from 1985 and two japanese Subaru Loyale/Leone's from 1990, one of these is rare coupe with full time 4wd and turbo. It's not the XT Alcyone, but it has the exact same specs and XT in its name, which I find to be very unusual being a Subaru Leone coupe. Reusing old cars is good for the environmant no matter how you put it😁👌

[@jasepoag8930]

I'm just keeping my V8 for now and offsetting my carbon emissions by not reproducing. Surely eliminating a whole line of progeny will have a greater impact than getting an electric. I'll look into electric once the infrastructure matures, and maybe they can bring the weight down on the battery packs.

[@mikevale3620]

I hope your V8 will look after you in your dotage and be some emotional solace before you meet your maker...**just kidding**...LOL

[@jasepoag8930]

@@mikevale3620 my little sister is Asian and 15 years my junior. She'll take care of me, Haha. As for meeting my maker, I'm an atheists, so not really worried about that.

[@russgould707]

It's funny how in the early 90s Suzuki was making a car that got 50 miles per gallon. All these years later with all the vast improvements in technology. Now it takes a hybrid to get that kind of mileage. Something is wrong here.

[@troll_town_usa_pop_u]

Yeah consumer 'requirements' these days are insane and it seems like most discussions won't even address that aspect.

[@15bit62]

For those of us not living in the US you should probably have made clearer in the EV-ICE plot that it is using the US energy mix. It would also be interesting to see what that plot looks like for a more renewable heavy energy mix. Polestar also did a manufacturing analysis that would also serve as a good source for confirming the Tesla numbers.

[@usa-ev]

And the grid is also getting greener over time, and this transition is accelerating as well.

[@idratherberiding3456]

He did state that it was the US energy mix.

[@martsmarts]

Newer cars now (not all but most) have a shorter lifespan with regard to obsolescence. Electronical, digital, computer related tech will age faster than the simple switches and mechanical components. Practical interior and options has left the room.

[@1bun2bun]

That "obsolescence" is majority superficial, talking about leisure and comfort, the engine and necessary functional mechanics of a 2012 are not obsolete compared to a 2022, just the infotainment systems.

[@martsmarts]

@@1bun2bun infotainment, keyless start, electric handbrake, electric steering, electric braking and accelerator pedal, digital gauges, etc. These gimmicks only shorten the life of a car when something mechanical and repairable via DIY or thru a general mechanic can do the job vs computers or complete parts replacement. Mechanical items really tend to last longer than electrical/digital.

[@Winterx69]

My petrol fuelled car is 30 years old and I have it on good authority it will technically run for at least another 20 with the same engine and parts, hands down. For catching up with my car's current lifetime you'd already have to build at least one excess Tesla along with some 4 Tesla battery packages plus at least 2 further ones to meet up at the potential age of 50. That does not even touch any spare parts that already exist for my vehicle and that, in the case of Tesla, will yet have to be produced and stored over the next decades. The global infrastructure for production and maintenance is likewise already in existence for motor cars. Same goes for the global fuelling network. All of which will yet have to be built in parallel for battery driven models at an appealing ratio when considering economies of scale. If, in theory, my car would ever require an engine replacement, that engine has already been produced decades ago, has been stored and is available, thus, does not require any new production to take place now or in the future, like a current day Tesla with its on-demand battery package production. There is no point in needlessly buying into an entirely novel system and producing yet completely new parts, when that forces you to having to throw mint condition 1990s produce spare parts away, that have over decades already mitigated their environmental footprint - and that several Tesla lifetimes over. Show us a Tesla that can match the "efficiency" and "environmental friendliness" of an actual quality (!) motor car with 6+ the lifetime span of your high end Tesla - in any field touched in the above video.

[@tonydalton8712]

100% RIGHT!

[@kyleeverly9243]

Unfortunately, due to the needs of my wallet I am unable to help the needs of the environment

[@waterloo123100]

Luckily vehicles isn’t what’s destroying the environment

[@troyhonda71]

As is the case with 95 percent of drivers

[@bcubed72]

I object in the most strenuous terms to the proposition that "least CO2" = "best for the environment." Creation of new stuff involves mining; pollution, etc. Generation of electricity involves pollutants not associated with oil: mercury, acid rain, even radioactive fly ash. And acid mine drainage, and... None of which is accounted for in the example. There's more to the environment than CO2!

[@coffeehawk]

So buy a used VW/Mazda 4 cyl diesel and get 50 mph mpg the highway. And don't give retired people a hard time if they're still driving big cars that get less than 20 mpg. They often drive less than 5000 miles a year.

[@andoletube]

This is a very interesting analysis, Jason. Although I would never trust figures that came from Tesla about their own products! I know it only affects the numbers marginally, but I think it's worth mentioning that gas cars are getting high scrutiny, while electric cars are all best-case-scenario these days. The agenda does alter the analysis somewhat.

[@MrCh1cken]

I was going to make a similar comment. I don't know that Tesla is skewing the numbers but I'd to see them come from a skeptical source as well.

[@petkogeorgiev2103]

He did already make a video calculating the production emissions of an electric by adding the ones required to produce an ICE vehicle and adding what some researches say is required on average for the battery.

[@karllued]

Since 2011, I have been riding scooters. I have a 1997 GMC Safari Van for grocery trips, or really bad weather, with 175,000 miles on it. It had 95,000 on it when I bought it more than 20 years ago. My newest scooter is getting around 113 mpg. No, "e" here. Top speed around 65 mph. I've put over 50,000 miles on 3 different scooters since 2011. I still have 2, and sold the first one to another guy with around 25,000 miles on it, 110cc, Honda Elite. Never failed to start, never had the battery replaced.

[@TwoScoopsOfTubert]

I was excited to hear about the "stuff" portion of the argument... but you left out most of the stuff! Surely the fact that an entire used car will (likely) be going to waste would have a pretty significant impact on the environment. Sure, from an emissions standpoint it's a pretty clear choice - but imagine every car on the road was replaced with a new one based on emissions alone? That's a shitload of squished cars to deal with

[@tomcapon4447]

Isn't it kind of ridiculous to assume a used car gets trashed in this economy? It would have to be pretty terrible for a dealer not to snap it up and triple the sticker price. I told my parents the only thing they should avoid is actually buying a new gas car. We should be driving our existing gas cars into the ground or sell to someone who will.

[@chaklee435]

If literally everyone switches and destroys the used gas car market, sure. As a government, or as a voter, you'd have to think about that. As regular people and car buyers, that's not something we need to consider.

[@misterbulger]

My 04 Mustang GT V8 bought super cheap used gets 26-34mpg. Pretty hard to beat and easy to keep on the road. 3 minute gasups and unlimited spare engines under the hood of any cop car or taxi cab. $80 for brand new brakes plus rotors.

[@ruffleduffle]

Thanks for the metric charts! Any chance you could do these diagrams for Diesel vs. electric too? Would be very interested in this, since diesel cars produce way more NOx and other bad emissions.

[@jeffreythiessen3794]

Diesels also get way better mpg. My 328d is as roomy and large as a Camry and gets 50-53mpg highway miles.

[@pfang100]

Thanks for the very informative information. This can help my partner convinced that my decision to buy a used Tesla model S is actually better than keeping her 25 miles/hr SUV in about three years. Since I'm buying a used Tesla, I also avoided the production carbon penalty you pointed out.

[@lashlarue7924]

The problem is that you think “doing your part” actually matters; it’s like voting; it doesn’t really. 😒

[@scrumtrellecent]

Don't forget Right To Repair... Anyone reading this comment most likely knows the story about Tesla’s $16,000 Quote for a $700 Fix $16,000.00 to replace a perfectly functioning battery pack can't be good for the environment when all it needed was a coolant hose repair.

[@rhett7716]

21k + labour was the quote from tesla fir a 90kw batt !!

[@scrumtrellecent]

@@rhett7716 wow...that's a heavy price to pay to be environmentally conscience.

[@icekk007]

Jason: Have you checked other reference? Typical production emission of a gasoline vehicle is 5-6 ton of CO2. The figure you used was quite high.

[@zackb286]

A regular gasoline engine is only about 30-35% efficient 65-70% heat output. Electric car with even battery, charging and drivetrain loss is still above 95% efficient. So even if a coal powered power plant is used to charge the Tesla, it's still three times more efficient just from an environmental standpoint of fueling them and use of that energy, irrelevant of the mpg or distance per kilowatt

[@Coolgamer400]

keep A and use E-Fuels?

[@mjc0961]

hahahaha no. He already did a video about that. KZbin doesn't like comments with links, but search the channel for "No, Synthetic Fuels Won't Replace Electric Cars"

[@Coolgamer400]

@@mjc0961 i know that video. but i dont think that EV all the way is the right choice. They are good for many fields of use, but not for all. i also think that it will take decades till all combustion engines are off the road, but with E-Fuels we could drive ALL existing cars CO2-neutral from now on. the distribution network for these fuels already exists. just my opinion.

[@J4Zonian]

Here’s another way to look at the decision: I. Find a better way to travel. Walking, bicycling, public transit are all huge improvements on driving. Organize to make those happen more & better in the place you live. II. If you have to have a car, there are 3 impacts: building, running, disposing. It’s built & the impact is set. (Organize to renewablize the grid & electrify primary energy.) The impact of disposal is pretty much set, although we should press for more & better recycling. Whether you ditch it it now or in 10 years has no significant effect on that damage. III. The only thing we can reasonably change individually is the impact of operation. EVs are much much more ecological to run, especially in the way that matters by far the most. They’re getting better, as are grids, & even old EVs get better as their power supply gets better. The only thing that makes sense is to make the life of ICVs as short as possible & switch to the best possible mode while pushing for progressive leaders who will do what’s necessary.

[@thecaristascarchannel9189]

Still dailying my 2nd gen prius with currently 493 000km on the clock. Repairing/maintaining instead of replacing is for sure more enviromental friendly and also better for my wallet 😅

[@rhett7716]

yes recycle reuse, theres too much stuff being dumped, the worlds choking on waste !!😣

[@Jakob_DK]

It depends on you definition of environmental. Regarding climate it is very clear.

[@Markle2k]

I don't have the numbers offhand, but a significant current user of cobalt is an oil refinery. Many of these supply chain gotchas actually cut both ways. The amount of cobalt that is mined unethically is not hugely significant unless you count fractions of percent as significant. It is significant for the individual child forced to mine cobalt, but if sourced ethically, it is near as to nil. 70% of the world's supply comes from the DRC. 20% of that is "artisanally" mined. Most of the artisanal cobalt is smuggled out of the country and escapes taxation and royalties that would keep wealth in the country. A very small fraction of artisanal cobalt is mined involving child labor. So, if you just keep a very close eye on your supply chain, you help the country and eliminate most of the risk.

[@MySuperman112]

I would also love to see how your graph changes when factoring in used electric cars, or EVs that require fewer emissions to produce than teslas with their massive battery packs

[@rdizzy1]

Those cars also have less range though correct? Range was taken into effect as the equivalent to mpg. And the older they are, the less range they have.

[@davisbradford7438]

@@rdizzy1 MPGe isn't a function of range. It's a ratio of Wh/mi converted to mi/gal equivalent. If a vehicle has a smaller pack but still has the same range as a vehicle with a larger pack then the MPGe will be higher. You can have a 300 MPGe rated vehicle that can only travel 40 miles.

[@rdizzy1]

@@davisbradford7438 Yeah, but they aren't going to have a "smaller pack with the same range", as they are all pretty much using similar batteries at this exact moment in time. The numbers will generally stay similar.

[@davisbradford7438]

@@rdizzy1 if you make the vehicle smaller, lighter, and reduce drag; smaller packs will result in similar range.

[@woutermollema]

The difference in emissions for production is very small in this example so it seems to me that the size of the battery pack has little impact. Maybe if you change it to a smaller and even more efficient EV (with a smaller batery pack as well) it will look different. I like smaller cars better anyways (up to a point)

[@brunothepug8807]

To me the Elephant in the closet is the huge price gap between EV's and ICE vehicles. With an assault on the middle class by inflation and taxes soon to rise, the added cost can't be handled by the consumer. Small fuel efficient ICE cars are also much cheaper causing the price gap and to grow and the the break even point in years on your chart to lengthen.

[@tysonkauth7232]

Prices are coming down on electric vehicles vs their ICE counterparts. Everybody seems to just compare the price of a tesla to whatever else they want to buy. Tesla is aiming at the luxury side of the new car bracket. Start looking at Hyundai konas, ot Chevy bolts. There will be a dearth of new midrange electric vehicles hitting the market soon, as well as used electrics becoming more common.

[@mechmat12345]

I think people don't realize how expensive new cars are now. Average new car price is over $40k. The average transaction price for a full sized truck is about $55k. Comparing EVs to the cheapest cars you can get is not an accurate representation of the car market. Bottom line, the average new car buyer could get an EV for the same price they are spending on an ICE.

[@brunothepug8807]

Don't know where you all are but here in the US the Nissan leaf standard is the least expensive EV you can get from a mainline brand. Even after government credits, assuming you have the tax liability to take full advantage of it, it is still about $10K more expensive than a comparably equipped Chevy Spark that easily gets 37 mpg. Given in California, the supposed green state, that electric rates are high and you still pay to charge, it would take beyond 7 years to recoup the cost difference and brake even. This doesn't even take into account the Leaf will cost you more every year to insure and register! Both also high costs in California. So to me it doesn't pencil out. Californians are progressive hypocrites that drive Tesla's as an eco status symbol of wealth, not because they give a rats ass about clean air or anybody else. Their other car is a giant truck they never take off road and don't need which is also a status symbol. If everyone just drove no more car than they actually need gas would be in oversupply and cheaper.

[@cogitoergovexo]

What's best for the environment is not synonymous with carbon footprint. If we presuppose that carbon footprint is the single most important environmental impact, then yes, we have determined that switching to an e vehicle at the micro level (disregarding a macro population wide switchover) makes more sense. If the environmental impact (pollution/destruction of landscape/extraction of limited quantities) of resource extraction is valued higher than carbon footprint, I think it's fairly self evident that keeping an older vehicle on the road is favorable.