Is Kneeling Before Statues Idolatry?

[@megred7364]

As a Protestant, I started to notice the hypocrisy around this. If worship is a singing session before a service, should we be singing "The Star Spangled Banner" or any song for that matter, that isn't about God? If images are idolatrous, why are any statues permissible? Why is it OK for me to kiss a picture of my dearly departed Grandma, but not one of Mary?

[@joecastillo8798]

@megred7364 Meg, A Catholic apologist here. Well said!

[@danielhaas9469]

​@joecastillo8798 this is why we take offense is quotes like these: God the Holy Spirit entrusted his wondrous gifts to Mary, his faithful spouse, and chose her as the dispenser of all he possesses, so that she distributes all his gifts and graces to whom she wills, as much as she wills, how she wills and when she wills. No heavenly gift is given to men which does not pass through her virginal hands. Such indeed is the will of God, who has decreed that we should have all things through Mary, so that, making herself poor and lowly,, and hiding herself in the depths of nothingness during her whole life, she might be enriched, exalted and honoured by almighty God. Such are the views of the Church and the early Fathers And The Will of God “God wills that all be saved by means of Mary.” (St. Bernard). “O Mary, after God, we have no hope except in you.” (St. Thomas of Villanova) “This is God’s plan. He has placed all redemption in Mary’s hands so she can dispense it as she wills.” God commanded Moses to make the mercy seat of pure gold. (Ex 25:17) Mary is this Mercy seat. Through her, God speaks to the whole world. I certainly hope you see that this contradicts scripture explicitly.

[@lusttravel1247]

Ding ding

[@megred7364]

@danielhaas9469 I'm sorry, but it doesn't contradict Scripture at all. After all, God dispensed His greatest gift to us through Mary and her will, which was perfectly aligned to His own, the gift of His son Jesus! Salvation literally came into the world through the womb of Mary after she entrusted her entire self, including her body to God. That's Scripture.

[@OxyCleanForYourBrain]

“The measure you give is the measure you get”. The Uber-obnoxious and aggressive accusation of “iDoLaTrEE” made me turn and judge Protestant churches by their accusation and it doesn’t look good: music concerts and self-help seminars where the stage is “the altar”, and speeches and feelings and idolizing wearing suits/looking good and charismatic Pastor Slick-Rick. Kneeling and scraping towards stages that are “altars”. So if I can’t tell the difference about whether God is inside my 30 cent plastic finger rosary and am constantly accidentally committing necromancy by processing my yearning for a dead loved one then prayer is dangerous…actually thats an old heresy that St Teresa of Avila combatted… the “oops you’re accidentally summoning demons everywhere” heresy that scared people away from mental prayer.

[@Bubs777am0r1]

Mr. Heschmeyer as a recently baptized Catholic your material continues to enrich my mind and strengthen my spirit, I came from a Protestant childhood and found my home back in Christ’s church. Clearly God uses you as a tool for conversion. You deserve many more views and subscribers than you have. You are one of my favorite apologists and content creators, God bless you and keep up the good work of the Lord!

[@BensWorkshop]

Welcome home!

[@georgefuentes4112]

Welcome home and amen!

[@wesleysimelane3423]

@@georgefuentes4112 kzbin.info/www/bejne/qZPLaJKJebVlnqs

[@cyndephillipshohbein8232]

Totally Agree and Thank You for stating such!

[@CatholicSaintslayIncorrupt]

Blessing to you finding the ancient prayers of all the saints! ❤

[@Democracyofthedead]

I attend an FSSP Parish, and one of the beautiful things about the Latin Mass is when the priest enters and passes by or in front of you, you bow as a show of respect. It just seems and feels right, and proper.

[@josh39684]

Very timely episode. My anti-catholic sister just grilled me on all sorts of things yesterday and this was one of them

[@swoosh1mil]

@@GizmoFromPizmo “rocket surgery”???

[@alisterrebelo9013]

@@GizmoFromPizmo Are you one of those people that thinks every single verse of the Bible is perspicuous?

[@MeanBeanComedy]

​@@GizmoFromPizmo Is that what Paul or Peter did?

[@alisterrebelo9013]

@@GizmoFromPizmoOxford Languages perspicuous - adjective clearly expressed and easily understood; lucid. If you believe the Bible is perspicuous: 1) Why do Christians quote the same Bible verses and arrive at radically different meanings? 2) Explain to me how someone can read the Bible and OBJECTIVELY arrive to the meaning that God intends for us to understand. Objectively means in a way that is not influenced by personal feelings or opinions.

[@MeanBeanComedy]

@@GizmoFromPizmo But he didn't cite the New Testament, since it wasn't codified by the Church for centuries after the Church was founded.

[@ModernLady]

I kneel during mass. I genuflect and cross every time I pass the tabernacle. When I pass a statue of Mary, I hold my hand to my heart and give a bow.

[@brucedavenport7016]

That's idol worship 101. Not a good idea if you want to be right with your creator.

[@ModernLady]

@@brucedavenport7016 what is? Me kneeling before my God or me saluting his mother?

[@brucedavenport7016]

@@ModernLady Both, if there is a statue involved. I kneel in prayer to God, in fact I prefer to be kneeling when praying and that action is supported in scripture. Genuflecting to a statue is idol worship. Saluting Jesus' Mother is idol worship. Look it up in your Bible.

[@andreeattieh2963]

​@brucedavenport7016 idolatry is against the teaching of the catholic church so stop blowing things out of proportion

[@ModernLady]

@@brucedavenport7016 You would have been horrified if you saw how many people I bowed to when I lived in Japan. So many people worshipped! Luckily for me, I know the difference between Latria and Dulia, and also a statue and an idol. But I agree that if you don’t know the difference, you probably shouldn’t be near statues.

[@timmleonard111]

Thank you for making this video. There is an extreme lack of reverence in many Protestant circles. This was one of the issues that was a catalyst to me converting to the Catholic Church. I'm grateful for your ministry! God bless you.

[@GratiaPrima_]

I’ve been thinking about this, so glad to see this episode! I grew up Baptist. For a while there, we did an Easter program every year called Bow the Knee. “In the presence of your king, bow the knee” we sang. Never. Once. Did. So. No wonder I was hooked at my first Mass when I finally did so.

[@wesleysimelane3423]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/qZPLaJKJebVlnqs

[@johnbrowne2170]

You are basing your salvation on kneeing? lol.

[@Zamalandre]

@@johnbrowne2170What should be wrong about bodily worshipping God ? God bless you all 🙏🏻🕊️

[@GratiaPrima_]

@@johnbrowne2170 that’s not what I said at all.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

“In the presence of your king, bow the knee” - Catholics do this to the Eucharist at the tabernacle, where Jesus is present body, blood, soul and divinity; we are in the presence of our King.

[@fcatulo]

I think the American context weighs heavy on the opposition to bowing down, and it shouldn't be overlooked. Cultures with a history of monarchy have a much easier time with kneeling as a gesture of submission or homage than a country founded on the rejection of monarchies.

[@shamelesspopery]

Exactly! If for no other reason, countries with monarchs are used to kneeling being used in a context of reverence and not worship. For Americans who ONLY associate kneeling with worship, it's harder to grasp how it isn't automatically idolatry.

[@UnknownsoldieroftheLORD]

​@shamelesspopery can't we just point out how in the Old Testament, prostrating is just a way to show respect/reverence toward a person and not worship? By only reading Genesis, you have a ton of examples of people prostrating and calling people who are not God "Lord", yet they are not worshipping

[@veredictum4503]

First time here. I must say I am surprised (pleasantly) by this - because you have put both sides of the argument forth. Usually it is the Protestants attacking the Catholics, in their usual way, quoting those exact verses. It is so good that you have strung together the other examples. I'll have to watch this a 2nd time, taking notes, to make a cheatsheet for rebuttal! Subscribed!

[@shamelesspopery]

Lovely!

[@tonyl3762]

Go binge the videos on this channel. Seriously.

[@ModernLady]

His videos are literally essays. It’s genius, easy to follow and you learn so much. This has become my favourite channel.

[@wesleysimelane3423]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/qZPLaJKJebVlnqs

[@Philip__325]

And don’t forget his books especially Pope Peter!

[@Koltusky]

I am loving the increased content you are putting out. Seems like there’s a new video every time I am checking KZbin!

[@exmanolive305]

You mention over reactions that happened during the reformation and it made me think that another thing that Protestants discarded for no reason was making the sign of the cross. I think it’s sad that they refuse to do this because it looks catholic.

[@MrsYasha1984]

Yes, i saw at an oecumenical service they do say 'in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit' but don't do the movements.

[@ZTAudio]

This is a typical bit of oft-repeated Catholic mythology. Many Protestant groups teach or accept the sign of the cross.

[@exmanolive305]

@@ZTAudio maybe it’s because I live in a heavy Southern Baptist and Non-Denominational area but I never see if happen around me unless it’s another catholic.

[@ZTAudio]

@@exmanolive305 Could be, but one should be careful to qualify such generalities with “in my experience”.

[@laurenmcnichol5311]

@@exmanolive305 oh yes, I’m from a southern baptist family and they will never do the sign of the cross with my family and I. nondenominational and baptist Americans don’t understand or appreciate the the sign of the cross; they are very wary of it because it’s “not in the Bible”.

[@justthink8952]

Had protestants been consistent, their argument would have weight but they are not consistent. If these acts of praying, singing, bowing down constitute worship that is prohibited by God, then 1) Elton John had committed idolatry when he dedicated the song "candle in the wind" to lady Diana. 2) and those who petition to the authority have committed idolatry 3) those who bowed down their head to another person or saluted another person have committed idolatry. 4) those who kneel down before the graves of their loved ones have committed idolatry. But protestants must protest it is not so. They will say it is idolatry only when it is applied to the statues of Mary and the saints

[@Klee99zeno]

In Asia, people often bow to each other as a way of greeting them. Obviously this isn't worship. When actors finish performing a play on stage, they take a bow to the audience. This certainly isn't an idolatrous act of worship.

[@justthink8952]

@@Klee99zeno thank you for the examples. I'll use them in future. It is going to come handy.

[@blindjustice8718]

Reverence and worship are two different things. Nice straw man, though.

[@tonyl3762]

Bowing is the physical expression of submission to authority. No surprise that it has faded away in Protestantism which acknowledges no Incarnational authority on earth.

[@danielcristancho3524]

No surprise that it has faded away in Protestantism which acknowledges no Incarnational authority on earth.'' Protestants bow, Tony. They bow when they approach the throne of God in prayer. WE don't bow to images or priests.

[@tonyl3762]

@@danielcristancho3524 lol, what throne of God? Where is it? The throne in your imagination?

[@joelancon7231]

Your Channel is super duper edifying, I want to find a way to force my family to subscribe to you

[@timboslice980]

Joe, i love this style of video! It’s like a boxing pull counter, you put your head where you want your opponent to strike, dodge it, then throw a shot with the opponent’s own weight leaning into the blow. You start with talking about how bowing and prostration do not necessarily mean worship but show how lacking it in their respective services shows a lack of proper worship on their end. I love it.

[@wesleysimelane3423]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/qZPLaJKJebVlnqs

[@Deep34536]

They argue that creating statues of our saints is unbiblical and constitutes idolatry, while they themselves make GRAVEN IMAGES such as those of birds, seas, land, and trees on calendars and inscribe SCRIPTURE on them. By their own reasoning, shouldn’t these graven images also be considered a form of IDOLATRY?

[@ZTAudio]

@@Deep34536 Are they praying to the birds? Do they burn candles and incense to the birds? Do they bow to the birds? I think you might need a lesson in “one of these things is not like the other”, lol.

[@Deep34536]

@@ZTAudio Why did you feel so hurt after seeing this comment? Are you also one of those who consider everyone else foolish while thinking of yourself as clever? Apply the same teachings to yourself that you preach to others. And who told you that lighting a candle in front of a statue means worshipping it as God, or that it’s simply done out of respect and honor for the good deeds of the person? You write scriptures on GRAVEN IMAGES and think it's not idol worship because you didn't light a candle or bow your head. Keep this joke for your own community, not here.

[@ZTAudio]

@@Deep34536 I don’t think you’ve substantially answered by questions, or recognized the rhetorical point being made. It appears that you were just waiting for an opportunity to sling some diatribe. If that’s the game you’re after, consider me uninterested.

[@Deep34536]

@@ZTAudio 🤣🤣 I didn’t invite you; you came here on your own because you couldn’t tolerate the truth.

[@Deep34536]

@@ZTAudio Exodus 20 says, "Do not make any images of anything in the sky above, the earth beneath, or the waters below, and do not worship them." So when have we ever made images of creatures in the sky, the sea, or the earth, lit candles before them, or bowed our heads in prayer?🤔 GRAVEN IMAGES are made by you, with scriptures attached to them to make it seem like there's no idolatry involved, as if the weight of the argument shifts to the mere creation of the image. But you've ignored half of the verse by creating graven images while the other half concerning worship remains. This doesn’t make it a safe zone or free from IDOLATRY. The statues we have are of holy figures who lived lives of faith and devotion, and we use them for RELIGIOUS PURPOSES, not for IDOL WORSHIP. Creating their images to honor their memory is not idolatry. Have we ever offered sacrifices before these statues or worshiped them as gods? Whether it’s Mary or the saints, we honor their good deeds and their love and devotion to Jesus. Lighting candles and bowing our heads are acts of respect towards the person represented, not the statue itself. So before making accusations based on verses make sure to examine and understand them properly.

[@cantwheelie_rob]

I was taught as a young Catholic that kneeling before an image of a saint, kissing a crucifix or a picture of the blessed mother is simply a gesture of honor and reverence. It’s not worship and it’s not something that the church calls us to do.

[@danielcristancho3524]

''It’s not worship and it’s not something that the church calls us to do.'' The Second Commandment, which your church removed says different. ''Thou shalt not bow down to them nor serve them.''

[@cantwheelie_rob]

@@danielcristancho3524oh, you’re one of those spewing garbage without educating yourself.

[@Tobeouy]

​@@danielcristancho3524there is no list of 10 commandments in the bible. The first commandment That The True Church uses covers this commandments you speak of.

[@danielcristancho3524]

@@Tobeouy The first commandment That The True Church uses covers this commandments you speak of'' Really? I can't find that part about not making images or bowing to idols in the Catholic commandments or the Catechism. Don't tell me you guys have taken it upon yourselves to EDIT WHAT THE ALMIGHTY WROTE WITH HIS OWN FINGER AND SPOKE WITH HIS OWN VOICE. That's some impudent hubris your church has, there, Tobeouy.

[@danielcristancho3524]

@@Tobeouy there is no list of 10 commandments in the bible.'' Ahh, yes there is. It's in Exodus 20. And unless you're a complete dimwit, you should be able to pick out what the commandments are. Here's a hint, most of them begin with THOU SHALT NOT.

[@glotree]

The contradiction did not escape me, as a child growing up Baptist. We sang about kneeling, bowing, and raising our hands, but we never actually *did* any of those things. And if any of us *did* (I tried a few times); people would actually start avoiding you from that point forward. That contradiction (along with others) stuck in my mind, (even though I tried to sweep them under the rug because they were uncomfortable to think about), and when I began my process of conversion to Catholicism, I lifted up the rug and dealt with them all, one after the other. Baptist doctrine had no answers for me; Catholicism had a satisfactory answer for every single one.

[@AuroraB-74]

I wish the Church would bring back kneeling for communion. I attended a church that had the kneeling alter for communion and it was used for the NO mass as well.

[@vinciblegaming6817]

I agree. I would love to go to an altar rail and kneel at the altar while I wait for the bread and wine. Just a little while longer, Lord. The way it’s done now, kneeling would be rushed. And I don’t want to rush.

[@cindyknudson2715]

​@vinciblegaming6817 Why MUST we rush? I think maybe we have forgotten where we are and why. Or maybe never really learned.

[@ModernLady]

Kneel on the floor.

[@paulinewoods375]

​@@vinciblegaming6817I cant ineel as I would have difficulty getting back up again unless I have something to hold onto 😅

[@augustvonmacksen2526]

You can kneel anytime to receive the Eucharist.

[@Philip__325]

When I was a Protestant one thing that really bugged me was the strictness of the no images or depictions of Jesus. You can’t tell me for one second that when a Protestant reads about Jesus, prays to Jesus or thinks about him they don’t picture him and have some sort of image in their minds of what he looked it. What do they picture just a black silhouette? I guarantee as well that the image of Jesus they imagine during prayer or reading of scripture is undoubtedly influenced by depictions of Jesus in Catholic art, Catholic/Orthodox iconography and movie/tv depictions whether they’ll admit it or not. I’m curious for Protestants who hold to a very strict definition of no images of Jesus how they picture Jesus in their minds.

[@Nolongeraslave]

@@Philip__325 You realise that your comment admits that we do not have a true image of the Lord. All what we see is some imagination, don't you think? Ask yourself why is that before your are led astray. Why didn't the Lord who walked here on earth saw to it, that nobody painted or crafted any image in His likeness. Isn't it to be true to His Word is Scriptures? "Take you therefore good heed to yourselves; for you saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spoke to you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire; Less you corrupt yourselves, and make you a heaven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female...." In this Scripture God is saying don't even make an image of Me! Only the Elites in Roman Empire could afford their images carved on stones ~ Mary has no picture of her or the Apostles, they are all artist imagination. How do you kneel before an imaginary imagery and make sense out of the whole thing?

[@sheilazanella1294]

St Luke actually painted an icon of Blessed Mary His mother & Baby Jesus. Research it. ​@Nolongeraslave

[@Philip__325]

@@Nolongeraslaveyes I don’t think we have a true image of the Lord but that is not a problem for me. Icons are representative of the subject they portray. Why did the apostles not prevent the use of icon or images in the early church? Scenes of the gospel were depicted in the earliest Christian places of worship as people didn’t have bibles and many were illiterate so these images and stories were how they learned the gospel stories. You know the word Icon comes from the name Veronica meaning “true image”. From st. Veronica the woman who wiped Christs bloody face while he carried his cross and the image of his face was imbedded in the cloth. Becoming the first icon of the church.

[@violetd3487]

Yup. I keep wondering how they can get into mental prayer without any mental imagery.

[@TheMenghi1]

@@Philip__325 --Yes, let us not forget that we have paintings in the catacombs.

[@ssempalarobin-uw6jv]

Here in Uganda, we always kneel before our Parents n elders but don't worship them

[@shamelesspopery]

Well said - I think a lot of this is that we Americans really don't want to bend the knee before anyone... elders, political leaders, and (if American worship services are any judge) even God! It's a pity.

[@veredictum4503]

Good point! In Asian (Chinese) cultures, at weddings, the bride and groom kneel to the parents while serving tea. This is a symbol of "you are now my parents too and I will look after you", etc.

[@phillip6078]

But you do more than just kneeling in front of statues. Catholics made up all excuses, but none Is a satisfying answer to me. I used to worship idols, so I am very sensitive to it. I worship only the Trinity and worship in spirit and truth.

[@ssempalarobin-uw6jv]

@@phillip6078 Yoh, how did it feel to worship a statue. But if you are to take that commandment literally then the world is guilty. Because that means you can't take a picture of anything not even with your phone. Read that commandment again. Otherwise those statues are like images of our loved ones. When people knew before them, they ain't worshipping that block of cement nor the person it depicts. It's just a posture of respect and honor. Yes we love, honor and Respect Mary and the other Saints and look up to them. And if Catholics love to "worship idol" as you call it, why haven't they ever made a statue of God the Father (who face has never been seen) and worship it. I think you are in a state of denial 😂😂

[@phillip6078]

@ssempalarobin-uw6jv I don't have pictures, but that is besides the point. Even if I have picture frames in my house, I don't sit in front of it and prostrate and asked it to pray for me. This argument is dumb.

[@RocketsharK7]

I have been in church all my life. I have never been to a church that did not have people bowed down praying in service. What churches dont do that?

[@classicalteacher]

Icons and staues have already been decided by the early Christians to be licit. They were guided by the Holy Spirit. If you disagree, you aren't guided by the Holy Spirit, you are guided by yourself.

[@Klee99zeno]

Everyone should look at the book of Kings where it describes the inside of the temple of Solomon. There are images of angels carved on the walls, and statues of angels on either side of the ark of the covenant, plus statues of angels on top of the ark itself. The temple was not a blasphemous place, not a center of idolatry.

[@wesleysimelane3423]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/qZPLaJKJebVlnqs

[@Nolongeraslave]

@@classicalteacher I totally and strongly disagree.

[@Michael-gx6mi]

​@@Nolongeraslave yeah because you are your own pope you don't submit to the scripture but your own interpretation to it. The bible is the book of our One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church whereas you cannot say the same. Submit your mind and will to the truth.

[@dpey]

​@@Klee99zeno but they were not decorated as such according to human talent or imagination- they were created according to the pattern and command by God...there is a clear difference between God's command and our own imagination and ideas. The trouble with humans is that we tend to run with an idea we think is acceptable but don't confirm with God of it is, just like when David thought it would be a good idea to move the ark without consulting God or the Levites and Uzzia ended up dying. I often think, when God looks down at us kneeling in front of a statue of anyone, what does He think? Does He like it? How come we don't see any God fearing man or woman do such things in the Bible?

[@kaylanozawa4798]

I think you made a great connection with how most protestants do not kneel before God in prayer, etc., and how this causes them to be even more outraged by the idea of kneeling before a saint. I have always thought it is a Western, cultural issue as you touched on.

[@kaylanozawa4798]

@@GizmoFromPizmo Did you watch the video?

[@danielcristancho3524]

''I think you made a great connection with how most protestants do not kneel before God in prayer,'' Not all Protestants. Our church kneels when we pray to God. WE don't kneel to images.

[@dorakinwarhammer2946]

When the demons bow down before Jesus. They pay him the honor he commands. Mark 5:5-13. You better believe we should be prostrating ourselves to God.

[@mejrija]

Grew up in a predominantly Catholic country. Never gave a second thought about statues and related things until I started watching English language content on YT and came across Protestants. Boy, can they complicate things that are actually simple and self-evident, at least to me😂

[@BensWorkshop]

Great video. Many thanks Joe!

[@susand3668]

Thank you, Joe Heschmeyer, for all you do to bring together Catholics and Protestants. We are separated by our different cultures and worldviews, as well as our theologies! Yet Jesus said we would be known by our love for one another.

[@dizzynoggin]

Thanks again, Joe.

[@michaelong2625]

thanks joe... you are, always helpful.....

[@wenshan9101]

What a relief from the war of words over Pope Francis statement! And beneficial to the soul, too. Thanks, Joe. God's choicest blessings!

[@wesleysimelane3423]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/qZPLaJKJebVlnqs

[@peacemungtsa]

In Protestant churches worship means singing while for Catholics singing enhences worship but it's not the worship

[@elizabethking5523]

You are crushing it Joe!!!😃🙏🏻

[@andrewgunawan4502]

Eyy new Shameless Popery video dropped

[@Bob_Oxnard-sp1gr]

In the Old Testament, worship meant to offer sacrifice (e.g. lambs). In the New Covenant, worship means to offer sacrifice (the Lamb of God through the Eucharist). Worship thus always entails offering sacrifice. No one who kneels before a statue of Mary or anyone else offers sacrifice/worshipping. It thus isn’t idolatry.

[@RealSeanithan]

That is one thing I really like about the denomination I grew up in before joining the Church: corporate prayer almost always involved prostration.

[@nyckmaia]

Great Joe! You are the best! Great topic! Thank you so much!

[@wesleysimelane3423]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/qZPLaJKJebVlnqs

[@theokra]

“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them” - The 2nd Commandment. Doesn't get any clearer than that, but certain groups insist that they're "venerating" not "praying", or that these are merely "icons" not "graven images".

[@carakerr4081]

Praying all Christian’s can receive the Eucharist as Catholics ❤

[@Poland805]

Are we getting new episodes outside of Thursday now? That's exciting.

[@anonymouscrank]

In "True Grit," the self-assured 14-year-old, Mattie Ross, mentions she's Presbyterian at the boarding house dinner table. LeBoeuf, the Texas Ranger, chirps "I was raised in the Episcopal Church myself" to which Mattie replies "I figured you for some kind of kneeler." Ouch!

[@shamelesspopery]

😮

[@lawrencet616]

Hi Joe, how are we to explain the scenario at end of Revelation when the angel stop St John to bow down to him? Sure we should bow down to God but looks like we should not bow down to angel (or saints)?

[@lispan3768]

Catholics consider Mary Queen of the Angels because Jesus lifted her up to be so. One theory of Satan's rebellion is that he saw the future and refused to accept a human woman as Queen over him.

[@crownwire7468]

Once again Protestants read, and hear, but they don’t understand

[@monsieurcharcutier4490]

Way to show Christ's love for your believers. You've clearly got following Christ down to the science.

[@Sonicmax8728]

Excellent video as always. Do you have any plans on making any response videos to some of Gavin ortlands recent videos? I feel like he’s really been going after the church lately and I wasn’t seeing much responses to it

[@jessicas8210]

I have a question. I can stand and sit but because of injury and illness I can’t bow and kneel. I was able to do a curtsy when I walked before the alter, this was a compromise, and now I can’t. When I am in mass I lean as far forward as I can and when it’s time to stand I try for as long as I can then I sit in a different direction and lean forward when we’re praying. There are some days I can barely make it to a pew and sit down. But my question is am I doing a good enough compromise considering my body’s ability and condition?

[@rukidding-y2c]

We WORSHIP GOD ALONE. The MASS is WORSHIP. WORSHIP is the MASS!

[@normmcinnis4102]

I think Jesus put it best when He said, when you pray, enter into thy closest. This means to isolate, no distractions, your sole focus is to the Father. This reminds me now that He Is a jealous God, which also brings comfort.

[@vinodkumar-vo2mb]

Praise God 🙏

[@mmbtalk]

Very thoughtful presentation, however it is still a challenge to worship together when the practice of the violates another's conscience. I remember one-time when I was paired to pray weekly with a Catholic at Varsity. I had to tell this dear friend that I was okay to pray with Him, if he was ready to avoid his Hail Maries, while we pray together. Otherwise, we would to do our prayers separately. Fortunately, maybe not so fair to him, he complied with my request.

[@jhamberg8968]

Just curious, what is in the Hail Mary that you find objectionable? I'm looking at the words, and I don't see anything that is against Scripture. For your convenience, here's the prayer below: Hail Mary, full of grace The Lord is with thee Blessed art thou among women And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Holy Mary, mother of God, Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen

[@jeneric]

Honestly, I don't think he complied, unless the program in question was a Catholic program or that you wanted to learn to pray the rosary, It would rather be uncharitable to force the rosary prayer on both of you. On the other hand, Catholics are not limited in the kinds of prayers... I am certain that your friend prayed another kind of prayer he is well aquinted with not because you asked but because he had numerous options.

[@quitgoogle2534]

Most of the words of the Hail Mary are taken directly from the Gospel of Luke. I thought protestants were "Bible-based". Only in the last sentence do we ASK Mary to PRAY FOR US... as in TO her Son, Jesus. Don't see how any Bible based Christian could disagree.

[@Babygreen_man]

@@quitgoogle2534it doesn’t matter that the prayer itself is dominated by scripture. For a Protestant, the moment that Mary is mentioned it trespasses against their conscience. We are commanded to pray only to God. And yet *that* is a prayer for and to Mary. I know that Catholics think of it more like asking Mary to speak on their behalf. But still, for a Protestant, if it looks like a duck . . .A prayer is a prayer is a prayer is a prayer. And prayers are only for God. To a Protestant it doesn’t matter what kind of distinction is made. To them it’s uncomfortable.

[@stevenwall1964]

@@Babygreen_man In the context of the Bible, there are several verses that encourage believers to pray for one another. For instance, James 5:16 says, "Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working." Similarly, 1 Thessalonians 5:25 states, "Brothers, pray for us." It seems you have made the decision that the actual word "prayer" can only mean one single thing. But that is completely against the evidence of history. I live in and work in a field of law and the phrase "I pray thee" is ingrained in the entire Western ethos to mean "ask" in many different contexts. If you won't make any consideration for "context" it will be difficult to understand the words in Scripture. If I say to the judge "I pray thee your honor that you consider my affidavit of evidence for this case" am I guilty of worshipping idols? I am saying directly to a man "I pray thee" to do a certain thing. Does that mean I am automatically worshiping a false God because per your claim is that "a prayer is a prayer is a prayer and prayer is only to God." You seem to be claiming that the word "pray" means only praying to God always and can never in any other way mean anything else. I think you can understand that your view is pretty narrow. In the Bible when Jesus was asked by his disciples how they should pray. And Jesus gave them the "Our Father" prayer. Jesus said to pray to the "Father." But most Protestants I am aware of also "pray" to the Holy Spirit. But why? There is nowhere in Scripture where it states that one should pray to the Holy Spirit. There is no where in Scripture where it actually says the Holy Spirit is God. Unless you can understand the "context" properly you will never believe that the Holy Spirit is God. The only reason you can be assured that the Holy Spirit is God is because of the Counsil of Constantinople in 381 AD. The Bible nowhere tells us to pray to the Holy Spirit but it was the early Catholic Church that stated at the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD that the Holy Spirit was of the “same essence” as God the Father, and God the Son. In the 370’s a heretical group called the “Pneumatomachians,” denied that the Holy Spirit was divine. They believed that Christ created the Holy Spirit to be a servant for the Father and the Son. And that the Holy Spirit was inferior to the Father and the Son, and that prayer should not be directed to the Holy Spirit. It was the Catholic bishop Basil the Great who confronted the Pneumatomachians. When they would not stop a man named Epiphanius of Salamis took other witnesses and confronted them for their false teaching as Matthew 18 directs. False teaching is a sin. And Jesus said if the person does not stop sinning after you take witnesses, then Jesus says "tell it to the church." And so, the church held the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD and in that Council it condemned the Pneumatomachians. The church defined that the Holy Spirit was of the “same essence” as “God the Father” and “God the Son” and that it was in fact proper to pray to the Holy Spirit. And so, we see that the Catholic Church and its Bishops under the guidance of the Bishop of Rome Damasus established the full doctrine of the Holy Spirit and thus the full doctrine of the “Holy Trinity.” The Council of Constantinople also dealt with Doctrine of the Incarnation and the two natures of Christ. You have understand the "context" of Scripture to understand that the Holy Spirit is God and that one can pray to the Holy Spirit. I would also wonder why you condemn using the words from Scripture in your prayers. Jesus prayed the Psalms. The words "hail Mary full of grace, blessed art thou and blessed is the fruit of thy womb (who of course was Jesus)" are directly from the Bible. God told Job's friends that he would not even listen to their prayers; God told them to have Job pray for them. God said to Job's friends "I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly" If Jobs friends took your stance and said a "a prayer is a prayer is a prayer" and "prayer" is only for God then they would be lost. All that said; if I were praying with you and you were particularly offended by the wrongful understanding of some of my words; it would be the charitable thing for me to do to avoid those words until we could have you examine the evidence of history to see that the belief that "prayer" can only mean talking to God in every single context is simply not accurate. For 1500 years no one in Christianity believed that "praying" or asking the saints or Mary "to pray" (which really meant "ask" for us was any kind of false worship. Here is an old article for Joe that explains the issue and gives more evidence that I can give on You Tube. shamelesspopery.com/sub-tuum/ I hope this helps. God bless you in your journey.

[@knightsrepose9448]

Be good to have references to clips. I'd like to see the ones by Daniel Block.

[@knightsrepose9448]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/qH7OoKKqZtCrqNE

[@AndrewKendall71]

This is so so much the reason catechesis needs to be strong and ongoing in churches. There are churches (sometimes more remote or sometimes in newly evangelized areas or in places where catechesis has been taken for granted for generations) that need to be corrected in just this way. Incidentally and relatedly, this recognition of the difference is behind the convention of kneeling on a left knee to a superior and kneeling on the right knee for worshipful adoration of God. Also, I agree with Daniel Block to this degree - kneeling, bowing has been lost too much. It's the exception rather than a regular practice. That IS a loss.

[@wbl5649]

They ignore the bow knee verses but will have 300 raising their hand(s) during worship/pray music because Paul said "“I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands…” (1 Timothy 2:8 …)

[@ndreece09]

I just want to know when in history did bowing or kneeling become an “automatic” sign or gesture of worship? 🤷🏼‍♂️ the Protestants these days are triggered by the slightest of things

[@Babygreen_man]

@@GizmoFromPizmojust speculation but. No image or icon could ever capture his likeness. Do you think he considers it hatred because though of him the image is not him? Besides, there’s the danger of becoming attached to an *image*. If you’re constantly worshiping before it and projecting your image of God onto it. That attachment alone must anger God.

[@mrjkstark]

For American protestants, here's my response. If you have issues with venerating icons, I better never see you saluting the US flag either (or would you also condemn US troops for saluting the flag or a superior officer?). You won't cross yourself? Don't put your hand over your heart for the national anthem either then. And do you also call out many eastern cultures for bowing to one another out of respect.

[@joeybwalsh]

To answer your last question, I do think most Protestants are against the traditional East asian bow, which is sad and is a result of Protestants often conflating Christianity with western culture. Protestants in China that I know will not put their hands together because they were taught it was Buddhist. One thing I admire about the Catholic Church is how they have always claimed other cultural practices for Christ rather than trying to replace them or get rid of them. I visited a Catholic Church in China and noticed that when they greet one another during mass they put their hands together and bow to say “peace be with you”. This is a good example of why/how Protestants think Catholics are corrupted by paganism and it results in many Protestants being ethnocentric - if not entirely xenophobic. On the other hand, with Catholics, incorporating the Christmas tree, for example, is not incorporating paganism but rather the Holy Spirit working in the Church to sanctify every tribe, tongue and nation for the kingdom of God.

[@GiWolf6060]

I think there is a qualitative difference between the two. It would be like if at a baseball game they asked you to kneel before the flag, kiss it, and then pray through it to the founding fathers. Then when you protest, ask what the big deal was since you already put your hand over your heart. It is really not even similar.

[@blindjustice8718]

There's a difference between respect and worship. We aren't worshiping the flag or a superior officer. We aren't praying to God through them (Sergeant Major full of grace....) Nice straw man though.

[@coffeecat086]

As someone with mobility issues, how do I handle this? No facetiousness whatsoever, just genuine questioning. I’ve always wondered how people with disabilities fit into various aspects of religion.

[@stevenwall1964]

I am sorry for the difficulties you face. I was sick for much of my life and being that way made it difficult for me to live a normal life. But I was never considered a person with disabilities and whenever I feel cheated in life for many other reasons, I know that I have certain advantages that people with disabilities do not have and so my heart goes out to all people with disabilities including you. I don't know what your situation is but I will pray for you this week. And as far as your question goes I think what Joe is saying here is what worship is NOT. He is not saying that you have to do any physical action to worship God. It is a matter of the heart. If a Catholic bows before a statue or makes the sign of the cross it is NOT automatically worship. Protestants claim it is and Joe as usual just gives the evidence as to why the Protestant is wrong. But the point is that if one does have mobility issues and cannot bow, or kneel, or make the sign of the cross that in no way takes away the ability to worship God. I cannot pretend to know what it is like to have serious or even less serious mobility issues. I feel tepid even writing "serious" vs. "less serious" because what do I know? But when I was really physically sick and was in a bed and it just hurt to move, I would just say the name of "Jesus" in my mind over and over. I would think "Jesus," "Jesus," "Jesus," over and over again. What I could not do physically I would just imagine mentally. Worship is a matter of your thought life. In the vernacular we would say "worship is from the heart." You do not have to "fit in to various aspects of religion" as you put it. As a Catholic all you would have to do is think in your mind "Jesus I worship you" and really mean it. It will not matter if you cannot kneel, bow, or make any other movement. If all you could do is bow your head slightly, then do that. If you couldn't do that then close your eyes and think about God. That is the great thing about common Catholic prayers like the Rosary and the Stations of the Cross you can just listen to them and focus on the words in your mind. In the Rosary and Nicene Creed you have all the elements of who Christ is and what he did. Even following along with those prayers read by someone else in your mind and really meaning it, is true worship. I hope this helps. I have no authority to give advice but I was touched by your question on behalf of yourself and others who have mobility issues and was hoping that I could at least clear up that one point.

[@aussierob7177]

Many non-Catholics say praying in front of a statue of Mary is "idol worship " Well, the statue of Mary is not an idol, and any prayers to Mary are not worshipping her.. But, no many times you try to explain it, it fall on deaf ears.

[@vinukola]

Many people say that robbing a bank is robbery and is a crime, well a home is not a bank and if children rob small things in the house its not robbery. But, no many times you try to explain it in fall on deaf ears....

[@LL-bl8hd]

The Orthodox don't tend to do much kneeling or genuflecting. They do full prostrations (forehead to ground) or bows.

[@frederickanderson1860]

Statues that bleed and cry is overlooked

[@someonesomewhere6316]

Always educational and informative! Catholicism has the fullness of salvific revelation. Thank you.

[@geraldhill7547]

Just started watching but want to make couple points... The Shekinah, God's presence, was on the ark. The high priest once a year was the only one in the presence of the Lord. When they were moving the Tabernacle they had Specific Instructions how to take the ark. They weren't just running around bowing down to it like the picture. With that said, the icons and the statues in Orthodox and Roman denominations are clearly not a problem. Let us look to the Semantic Domain Hebrew Dictionary פֶ֣֙סֶל֙ a physical likeness or representation of a person, animal, or thing; carved out of wood and sometimes stone, and functioning as an object of non-sanctioned worship In my book the worship of Christ is Sanctioned worship. Let me watch the rest.

[@bodolawale5448]

Thank you Joe, I will not judge anyone. I will choose to knell, bow and postrate to my LORD God.

[@josiahhockenberry9846]

I bow to my Holy Mother every morning, not because she is God, but because she has shown me the way to her Son Jesus Christ and for that, I love her.

[@vinukola]

Your holy mother from heaven might be saying, don't do that, cause 1. I don't look that way, that's not me. 2. You don't have to do that. Just follow my pattern of faith in your character.

[@rahawa774]

Every knee shall bend ❤

[@rwyland]

If you are going to expound upon reverence for Saints and their images, I’d recommend adding in early Church arguments especially against iconoclasm the councils articulate. I appreciate the modern arguments against Protestantism but classical arguments would be helpful to support them.

[@iphidamasfilms1245]

13:52 this is exactly why i laugh when people say America is a "Christian nation" or a "Christian culture," because this is so completely foreign, even antithetical to American culture.

[@someonesomewhere6316]

I sometimes do think Protestantism is the Beast from the West.

[@monsieurcharcutier4490]

👏

[@vinodkumar-vo2mb]

Praise God 🙏 Every Knee should bend ❤

[@ajayjosemedia]

14th minute was very interesting

[@tsmith2434]

Perhaps my bible knowledge is lacking, but when do the people bow before the ark of the covenant/cherubim?

[@Christ__is__King]

Joshua 7:6 Then Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the Lord until the evening, he and the elders of Israel; and they put dust upon their heads.

[@tsmith2434]

@@Christ__is__King Thank you I didnt notice that verse before. However this doesnt appear to be a positive endorsement of bowing before images as shown a few verses later, Joshua 7:10 The Lord said to Joshua, “Get up! Why have you fallen on your face?

[@yoofij4724]

Kneeling is good and should never be forgotten. But, in certain cases, e.g., Peter rebuked Cornelius, the angel rebuked John, and this predicament must be answered so that everyone is satisfied

[@vinciblegaming6817]

Sometimes, the men confronted by angels thought they were seeing God. And the rebuke is “I am not God.” There is a posture of the heart that goes with the physical posture. If I’m falling on my face to someone who I have a great respect for who did something wonderful for me, and I recognize they are but a reflection of the God they serve, I’m not worshipping, I’m honoring. But if I do so because I think that person IS God, then there’s an issue. Generally, I don’t think an onlooker can rightly ascertain the situation of one’s heart which is why the Catholic Church says no sacrificing - that’s strictly for God alone. Only God knows the heart of the one kneeling and who their heart is attuned to. Kneeling before a miraculous sign is not worshipping the sign if my heart is contemplating the marvelous goodness of God.

[@yoofij4724]

@@vinciblegaming6817 I don't think Cornelius thought God has come face to face to him, or John thought the angelic messenger was suddenly God. But yes, revering those God has sent or blessed is good

[@vinciblegaming6817]

@@yoofij4724 I think the angels can be easily mistaken for being more than they are when God is beyond our imagination and angels are unlike anything we’ve ever seen. It’s ironic, then, that He would become like what we can imagine and like what we always see to be with us. And the risk of that was he’d be rejected and despised. It’s easier to think an angel is God than it is to think a man is.

[@alexanderkaufman3575]

With Peter and Cornelius, here is the exact verse "As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”" My initial take is there is a difference between honor due to God and that due to man. It seems like that Cornelius is honoring Peter in a way that is more than what he is due. The alternative is that it is an act of humility on the part of Peter. Kind of like how maybe how a soldier will salute their officer when they come into the room, but the officer immediately says "At ease." The soldier is giving the officer honor which is due to him, but the officer tells him not to worry about in that instance. I think some more work may need to be done here to determine which of these is more likely to be the case, but I hope I am making sense. I also think that the concept of bowing or kneeling out of respect is something lost in Western culture. I took Taekwondo for many years and I would be required to bow towards my instructors at the beginning and end of class. I am not treating them as god, but as my instructors, they are due a level of respect, and in Korea, that is how one shows respect. Europeans will often greet each other with kisses. In China, students will bow their head and look downward when their teachers are talking to them, when in America it is the opposite and disrespectful to not look at someone (particularly an authority figure) when they are talking to you. Idolatry comes into play when we give honor to someone that is not God, which is due to God ALONE. Bowing, kneeling, etc. while most certainly can be given to God and are due him, but these things are not necessarily due to God alone! We should always be asking ourselves: 1. What honor is this person (whether God, angel, or man) due? 2. Am I giving them that? We do not want to give too little honor to someone when that honor is owed to them, but like wise, it is also wrong to give someone MORE than what they are owed. When it comes to kneeling in front of a statue, the other thing that needs to be asked is this: What is the object of that honor? The statue itself or the person represented by the statue? It would be wrong to bow down and serve a statue of Jesus - in the sense of directing the honor and worship towards the STATUE rather than the person Himself and using the statue as a visual aid in devotion. Again, I hope all of this makes sense.

[@juyeonglee1605]

Simply yes.

[@scottward4316]

Ex 25:22. “And there I will meet with thee and commune with thee, above the mercy seat between the two cherubims……”. God is who they were bowing before, not the cherubims.

[@silveriorebelo2920]

the head of a fundamentalist is full of petty commandments about what we can do and not, as if we had not yet left the mosaic covenant...

[@bigjohnconnect]

I look at statues as visual aid.

[@danielcristancho3524]

''I look at statues as visual aid'' No problem. The problem begins when you start bowing to them.

[@Chris-t4i]

TELL that to the Lord GOD Jesus ...

[@danielcristancho3524]

@@Chris-t4i I have and He's already answered me. It's in Exodus 20: 4-6. We are not to bow to images or serve them.

[@urkosh]

Indeed, worshiping is not 'just' bowing/kneeling, just as not all bowing is a worship. God wants our very self - our hearts, with our gratitude, repentance, pleas, and love. Bowing without realizing this, is not a worship. On the other hand, one can pray/worship in any position, but bowing/kneeling helps the us, the finite material beings, to lift up our hearts to the Lord Jesus Christ. In the Byzantine Eastern Christian liturgical texts there are parts with explicit call to "bow your heads before God" and bowing is a living part of Eastern tradition. Actually in the Slavic translations of the Divine Liturgy the verbs to 'bow down' and to 'worship' are denoted by the same word (poklonyatysia). All in all, bowing/kneeling is just a helpful means to worship.

[@Anti-pro73]

Idolatry in general is defined biblically as “worshipping the creature instead of the creator”. Gestures like kneeling, bowing, saluting, are not acts of worship in themselves unless you are islamic.

[@Neb-ie5mj]

Think I’m crazy but I thought I saw you at Mass on Sunday Joe!

[@shamelesspopery]

Where?

[@Neb-ie5mj]

@@shamelesspopery Immaculate Conception St Marys but it could have been your doppelgänger!!

[@urhumbleservant]

2:46 Representational art ≠ Idol

[@jayguevara6153]

I was really hoping you'd touch on Revelation 19:10 where the angel rebukes him for kneeling at his feet...

[@ddoggall]

That incidence was post-incarnation of Our Lord. Prior to the Incarnation of the second person of the Trinity, angelic beings were superior to men. By becoming a man, Our Lord elevated humanity above the angelic.

[@notdisclosed]

The extreme aversion to images representing someone ends up as on attack on Sacred Scripture when it uses letters to represent God and his friends.

[@badonlikoy5571]

The LORD said, Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves and do not place in your land a carved stone to BOW DOWN BEFORE IT (Leviticus 26 :1). And they did not stop worshipping the demons like idols of gold, silver, bronze, wood and stone that cannot talk, cannot see, cannot walk and cannot hear (Revelation 9:20).

[@philipmarchalquizar7741]

In Japan, Korea they bow each other.. But they don't worship each other.

[@lispan3768]

We are all united in the body of Christ which is why Jesus's mother is our spiritual mother too. Saints in heaven are friends just like our friends in Christ on earth. Many people do not have a loving mother and are healed by the spiritual mothering of beautiful loving Mary.

[@TheologyNerd777]

Council of Nicea 325 AD Cannon XX "Forasmuch as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord’s Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing."

[@waltem8]

“But Joshua rent his garments, and fell flat on the ground before the ark of the Lord until the evening, both he and all the ancients of Israel: and they put dust upon their heads.” -Joshua 7:6 Joshua and all of the Jewish elders fell prostrate before the ark with its graven images of cherubim on top.

[@hirehammer925]

@@waltem8 But wait, it was the very presence of God and he did tell them to build those articles and no other. So where is the comparison?

[@Maranatha99]

​@@hirehammer925Exactly!

[@Maranatha99]

God's presence was on the cover of the ark between the cherubim. That's why Joshua fell, bc of God's presence.

[@ednewcomer]

According to Scripture, at the name of Jesus, every knee shall bend (Philippians 2:10-11, Isaiah 45:23). This profound truth is rooted in Jesus’ obedience to God the Father, culminating in Our Lord's exaltation and glorification (Philippians 2:9).

[@Maranatha99]

"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God" Exodus 20, 4

[@kainosktisis777]

@@Maranatha99 So in Ex 20, we are commanded to not make such images, & 5 chapters later we read the following: The Mercy Seat (Exodus 37:6-9) 17And you are to construct a mercy seatd of pure gold, two and a half cubits long and a cubit and a half wide.e 18Make two cherubim of hammered gold at the ends of the mercy seat, 19one cherub on one end and one on the other, all made from one piece of gold. 20And the cherubim are to have wings that spread upward, overshadowing the mercy seat. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the mercy seat. 21Set the mercy seat atop the ark, and put the Testimony that I will give you into the ark. 22And I will meet with you there above the mercy seat, between the two cherubim that are over the ark of the Testimony;f I will speak with you about all that I command you regarding the Israelites. Why do you think we were commanded to make no images & then here commanded to fashion images of cherubim? How about this? Joshua 7: 6Then Joshua tore his clothes and fell facedown to the ground before the ark of the Lord, remaining there till evening. The elders of Israel did the same, and sprinkled dust on their heads. So they bowed before the Ark - but weren’t they commanded not to bow before images? Art in Scripture - Places of Worship: Exodus 25:18-22 Exodus 28:33-34 Exodus 36: 35-38 Exodus 37:7-9 Numbers 21:8-9 1 Kings 6: 18, 23-29, 32, & 34-35 1 Kings 7: 18-20, 22, 23-29, 32-36, 42, 44, & 49 1 Kings 8: 6-8 1 Kings 9: 1-9 1 Chron 28: 18-19 2 Chronicles 3: 5, 7, 10-14, &16 2 Chronicles 3-5 🤔

[@most_rustic_patrick]

@@Maranatha99 so I did some digging and found a protestant website source qbible. They examined both Greek translations and determined by strongs exhaustive concordance greek lexicon, that both Matthew 1:25 and 2 Samuel 6:23 have the exact sentence structure to be used as a select period of time not a change. The "ou" is how they determined this. So, looking back, you jumbled greek words, found out early writings on Joeseph having kids not of the same marriage, Mary always being shown as a forever virgin. I'm going all the way back to our first convo. Is there a slight possibility. That the CC got it right, and in fact, the Protestants (at least some of them) are lying to you. In order to keep you far away from those historical biblical catholics...? Just like you view my church is the way I view your legion of "churches"

[@peacemungtsa]

Did you listen to what he said or were you impatient to counter him without listening?

[@Maranatha99]

@@peacemungtsa what's the matter? I have just quoted one of what we call 10 commandments.

[@peacemungtsa]

@@Maranatha99 what's the point of quoting when he has explained?

[@macbride33]

Your posture before someone or something does not necessarily correspond to "believing that thing is a god." However consider Romans 6 Don't you know that you are slaves of anyone you obey? You can be slaves of sin and die, or you can be obedient slaves of God and be acceptable to him. Do you yield your whole being to the Father in humble submission...like His Son?

[@curiousbrunette2677]

I think they are very confused the difference between idols and Catholic images and statues

[@fantasia55]

There is no worship in Evangelical Christianity. Worship is via the Mass.

[@marlena.]

We can worship God everywhere, not only in Mass...

[@ChristoverMarxfortheWin]

That is as wrong as trying to defend the Country of Vatican and the money-making scheme they have made of Christian life. Not to expend on how stupid a statement it is.

[@StringofPearls55]

​@@marlena. That's true but true worship requires sacrifice otherwise it's just supplications.

[@fantasia55]

@@marlena. You're following a recent, man-made tradition. Early Christianity regarded the Mass as a continuation of Old Testament temple worship.

[@RedRoosterRoman]

That's not true. Mass is the highest form of worship. But the church acknowledges adoration is also a form of worship. In the psalms David prays that his lifting of hands should be like an incense sacrifice. The mass is the greatest sacrifice of all- but we should avoid deny the fact that protestants worship God. ​@@StringofPearls55

[@vinukola]

The design of Cherubim and the other things was given to Moses by God as a heavenly pattern. But in the NT, Jesus nor the Apostles didn't prescribe any imagery in the heavenly pattern. Bowing before images made out of human imagination is indeed falling into the category of Idol Worship. For example the Roman Catholic depiction of Mary, Jesus or the saints is far from reality and doesn't even come close to their biblical descriptions. More importantly as God ordained Moses to build the heavenly patterned imagery, no one in the NT has been ordained to do any of that sort. Moreover Apostle Paul has clearly stated that all of that imagery was a shadow, but the substance is of Christ. And that as Christ was raised by the Father we should walk in newness of life. But I still agree with the bowing part, not before a statue but before God in Truth and in Spirit. I must admit most modern evangelicals have a hard work at that as rightly pointed out.

[@RutilioNamaziano1]

Ottimo!

[@dynamic9016]

🙏 🙏 🙏

[@damnedmadman]

This prideful mentality is also infecting the Church, especially in the West. Holy Communion received standing, in the hand, is its gravest example.

[@JamesMoore-uq5oi]

But hand communion is more ancient than tongue communion in practice, and look at this reverence from St Cyril of Jerusalem (4th ce): "When you approach to receive, do not come with your hands outstretched or with your fingers separated, but make of your left hand a throne for the right, which is to receive so great a King."

[@damnedmadman]

@@JamesMoore-uq5oi This is the error of historism. Just because something was practiced in the early Church, it doesn't mean we should go back to it, because the Church matured over time and developed practices that increase our devotion to God and His glory. And people of today more than ever need to kneel and bow down before Jesus, and to receive Him like a child - small and helpless. Going back to standing and receiving in hand is a noticeable decrease in reverence and humility, and inevitably a decrease in faith. And by the way, this text in context still demonstrates a much higher reverence compared to what is practiced today on the West: "So then after having carefully hallowed your eyes by the touch of the Holy Body, partake of it; giving heed lest you lose any portion thereof ; for whatever you lose, is evidently a loss to you as it were from one of your own members. For tell me, if any one gave you grains of gold, would you not hold them with all carefulness, being on your guard against losing any of them, and suffering loss? Will you not then much more carefully keep watch, that not a crumb fall from you of what is more precious than gold and precious stones?" This is exactly why kneeling and receiving in the mouth have developed over time, along with all other liturgical gestures. And certainly the motivation to get rid of this was not for the greater glory of God, but for convenience and "emancipation". And these are definitely wrong reasons.

[@damnedmadman]

@@JamesMoore-uq5oi have you seen my response or has KZbin censored it? 🤔

[@JamesMoore-uq5oi]

@@damnedmadman Censored it seems 😕

[@damnedmadman]

@@JamesMoore-uq5oi Well then, in short, read the continuation of this quote. It clearly demonstrates great reverence of the author and includes other gestures of reverence. Obviously greater reverence wasn't the motivation behind introducing it again, but rather convenience and false ecumenism. And BTW we're not supposed to go back to ancient practices assuming them to be somehow better, this has been condemned by the Church. Kneeling etc have become the practice because the Church grows in understanding and thus also in reverence. Hope this wasn't censored? 😄

[@williammcenaney1331]

Catholics should recall Bock's points when they receive Holy Communion in the hand from a layperson's unconsecrated hands. In the Traditional Latin Rite's baptismal ceremony, the priest consecrates the baptized person's tongue to make it a suitable place for the priest to put the Blessed Sacrament. That doesn't happen at Vatican II-style baptisms. Before I gave up vernacular Masses for the Traditional Latin Mass, I watched another parishioner receive Holy Communion in the hand, turn away from the extraordinary minister, and drop tn consecrated host into his shirt pocket. Communion in the hand isn't sacreligious in itself since Fr. Adrian Fortescue shows that there's an Early Church precedent for it. But today, receiving in the hand makes sacrilege much more likely. Hardly anyone holds the patten under a communicant's tongue at the New Mass to catch fragments of the Host. But if tiny pieces of Christ's body stick to a communicant's hand, he may wash them down a bathroom drain or flush them down the toilet. Communion in the hand is liturgical abouse the Church allowed because it was already widespread. No one banned it. Tha strikes me as cowardly.

[@dizzynoggin]

Not only was their early church precedent for standing and taking Communion in the hand, there's precedent in the Bible as well. Starting with the first Passover. Eating standing from the hand is how a servant or slave would eat. After the first Passover, (when they started doing it again) they would eat Passover reclining at table to symbolize that they were free men, that God had freed them. That's why Jesus and the Apostle's were reclining. Gideon at the well, when God chose who would fight, he only chose those who took water in their hand and stood to drink. (Before Gideon decided it was all about him.) Also, the Church teaches that once the Body and Blood of Our Lord no longer have the appearance of bread and wine Jesus is no longer present. So, I don't understand the whole "tiny pieces" thing. If they're too small to see then they wouldn't look like bread, right? Too small for someone to see, they would no longer have the appearance of bread. This sounds like you're arguing for consubstantiation instead of transubstantiation.

[@williammcenaney1331]

@@dizzynoggin Sure, no one would notice a microscopic piece of a consecrated host on someone's hand. But a visible one could still go from there down a sink drain. In the early Church, parishioners much much more reverent that many 21st-century Catholics. As Fr. Fortescue's book about the liturgy probably says, ancient Catholics needed to lick the Blessed Sacrament off their hand. That's not how you eat a cookie or a potato chip. Since Archbishop Bugnini wanted to please heretics when he and his committee designed the Novus Ordo Missae, they made it stress the meal aspect of Holy Mass. So, who would spoon-feed you at a fancy dinner party? Compare the Novus Ordo's rules the ones for the TLM. The Novus Ordo rules say that someone should reverently pick a consecrated host that lands on the floor. He doesn't need a purificator. He doesn't need to pray when he takes the Host off the floor with his unconsecrated fingers. But at the TLM, the celebrant must always touch the consecrated Host with his thoubs and pointer fingers. The Novus Ordo rite is for another religion. If you doubt that, remember when Michael Matt noticed that Anglican minister used the Novus Ordo rite at an Anglican liturgy. So, someone there said the clergyman did that because the Novus Ordo rite was compatible with Anglican theology. Now you know another reason why my conscience won't let me fulfill a Mass obligation at a Novus Ordo Mass.

[@williammcenaney1331]

@@dizzynoggin No, I'm not arguing for consubstantiation. My current point is the even if Communion in the had isn't sacreligious, it can promote sacrilege. Again, I watched a man drop a consecrated host into his shirt pocket. Though I assume he didn't mean any harm, some might put one there to desecrate it later. Satanists take steal them to do that. If particles stick to my hands after I receive Holy Communion on them, I could was the particles down the church's bathroom sink. I kept pointing to a Host on the church floor because I worried that an usher's seeing-eye dog might eat it. Maybe you remember that in about 1993, Dr. Alice von Hidebrand wrote an article to argue against Communion in the hand. She said that though the Church forbade it, she then allowed it because it became too widespread. Yes, I know there's a precedent for Holy Communion in the hand. I read about it in Fr. Adrian Fortecu's book about the TLM. He says that after a Catholic received the Blessed Sacrament that way, he licked it off his palms. Communion on the tongue stresses a passive receiviving instead of active taking. When I receive Holy Communion, it comes from a superior, my pastor. He's not a bakery employee giving sample cookies to customers because he wants them to buy more. You're right. People received in the hand at the Last Supper when Our Lord sat with them at the table. Since he give them the consecrate species, we know he wasn't allowing sacrilege. But I'm sure they were much more reverent that many who attend Pope Paul VI's kind of Mass today, In about 1993, I went to an apologetics conference at the Franciscan University of Steubenville. A woman cupped her hads to receive Our Lord that way. So, Fr. Peter Stravinskas held the Blessed Sacrament until she received on her tongue, Read "The Great Facade" by Christopher Ferrara and Dr. Thomas Wood. It'll tell you about a World Youth Day where people kept consecrated hosts in a cardboard box. When it reached some motorcyliesists, the grabbed handsfull of them and washed them down with beer. If that's not sacreligious, I don't know what is. At the Traditional Latin Mass, the faithful must receive Holy Communion kneeling and on ther tongues. Since the TLM is the only Mass I attend, no priest will expect me to receive the Sacred Host differently.

[@blag345]

It's obeisance, not obesiance.

[@dave_ecclectic]

Is kneeling at all idolatry? Why do you kneel before your bed, and bow before your dinner table?

[@peterzinya1]

Nothing wrong with kneeling.

[@josephology3290]

We Catholics don't worship statues anymore! Now we worship banners! ha ha ;-) PS: and we don't worship Mary anymore either! Now we worship Joseph! ha ha ;-)

[@sbaker8971]

If you want to try and convince anyone of anything, it's best to tell the whole story and not just parts. For example, the jews weren't bowing and worshipping the Ark of the covenant. They were bowing down and worshipping the glory of God above the ark.

[@johnkeenan9192]

I was born in Northern Ireland and brought up in the roman catholic faith. I remember as a young boy going to mass with my younger brother and listening to the priest speaking in Latin when he was doing mass. I said to my brother I don’t understand a word the priest is saying but then after all he’s the man of God so I just accepted it. In my early twenties I was invited along to a Baptist church by some friends in our town and I heard a message from the Word of God. I felt this was the first time that I had heard a message from the Bible that was clear and spoken in a language I understood. There was no ritualism no images no statues. I felt liberated. You say that roman Catholic’s don’t worship statues, I totally disagree. I have many roman catholic relatives and friends who are very committed to the roman catholic church who have statues and images of Mary and the Saints in their homes which they bow down to and pray to every night. Gods word plainly says we are not to do this. Exodus 20: 3-5 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; I remember visiting a roman catholic church in Drogheda, (a town just across the border from Northern Ireland). As you entered the chapel there was a large white marble statue that was supposed to be of Saint Peter sitting on a throne. There was an inscription at the base of the statue which said whoever kisses the right foot of this statue will receive remission of sins. To my surprize when I looked at the statue the little intricate markings that should have been on the toes of the right foot were completely worn away as if it had been polished. Obviously, it had been kissed numerous times. As you made your way into the chapel and up to the alter rails there was this grotesque artifact in a glass case which was actually the decapitated head of Oliver Plunket, (a former Catholic Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of All Ireland who was hanged, drawn, and quartered on July 1st 1681.) People were kneeling before this Grotesque artifact and praying to it. I believe many roman catholic people do these things out of ignorance because they do not read Gods Word and have never been encouraged to read Gods Word. William Tyndale who was burned at the stake for translating the Bible into English is famous for saying these words to the clerics who opposed him in his time “I defy the Pope and all his laws. If God spare my life ere many years, I will cause the boy that drives the plow to know more of the Scriptures than you!” My prayer is that God would open the eyes of all who profess the name of Christ to have a better understanding of what Gods Word really teaches. John Keenan.

[@Maranatha99]

Thks for your words. I grew up Catholic in Spain. God saved me when I was 25. I serve Him since.

[@Maranatha99]

Joe has failed to present one single example from Scripture. One.single., where God's people kneel in front of statues. The ark of the covenant doesn't count bc it represented God's presence. The brazen Serpent does not count either bc it was common by God with a specific purpose