Is Male and Female Mutuality Biblical? A Denver Seminary Panel Discussion

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CBE International

Күн бұрын

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@alanachilders 7 жыл бұрын

I love this! I have listened once already, need to listen again and take notes!

@slvta1982 7 жыл бұрын

Yes thank you for shedding light in the darkness!

@debbiekling6065 Жыл бұрын

The first to describe Junia as a male was Giles of Rome in the 13 th Century, up in til then Junia was a female and their were no known males by the name of Junias in Rome or else where . Look up Ben whitherington III women’s role in church service Scholar and Thealogian

@susanbarackman-artist7670 Жыл бұрын

In my study of learning about mutuality vs. patriarchy/complementarianism and presenting my views and opinions, I have been called names that I am a Satanist feminist, finding things to tickle my ears, my salvation doubted, blinded by satan etc-a real show of true Christian love. When I state how Christian patriarchy with its many rules mostly aimed at women, has morphed into spanking “disobedient” wives and the stories of abused wives who did nothing but submit and obey are in the hundreds, I hear the same old argument that how they practiced a twisted from of patriarchy , not the correct way- My question is, if those who truly believe patriarchy/complementarianism is God’s will for the Christian life what are they doing to help these hurting women and show them Christian love and offer healing? Under patriarchy the only biblical answers seem to be go back to your husband and be more submissive and without speaking a word you will win him to Christ and how God hates divorce-both scriptural admonitions. Yet this advice rarely works--- Why? In fact, from what I have seen the only ones who are stepping up to the plate to offer help and resources to these abused wives are those who believe the bible teaches mutuality-sites such as bare marriage. I wonder how much time do pat/comp believers actually spend in correcting badly practiced patriarchy --- do any of them spend time going to the sites like biblical gender roles that teach spanking wives is biblical -do they spend time correcting them of their errors?

@zerosparky9510 5 жыл бұрын

Thanks for posting. God bless.

@julie-anngillitt6033 Жыл бұрын

Brilliant. Totally agree. When I was first saved, without any understanding of scripture - I never opened a Bible in my life before coming home - I instinctively knew, through the Spirit, I believe, that egalitarianism was correct. THANK YOU for doing the Biblical work that, now I see, confirm these original, Spiritual instincts. :))

@Maxandshe 10 ай бұрын

And yet Jesus Himself commended Mary for preferring to sit and learn instead of busying herself with the domestic chores. Jesus tells Martha, "Mary has chosen the better way".

@FaithHopeandLoveMinistry 3 жыл бұрын

I have just finished reading Mary and Early Christian Women: Hidden Leadership. The fundamental message that God allows women to be religious leaders who preach and give direction to men is true and deeply needed now in the Catholic/Christian faith. I wrote this review from the idea of writing a letter to the author. The best part of this book comes when the author’s (Ally Kateusz) hard work and courage reveal the long “hidden” stories of Christianity’s early female apostles (Romans 16:7) and deacons (Romans 16:1-2 and 1 Timothy 3:11). However, I would warn the author (and the readers) to have more faith in the actual Bible and to be more careful to separate the “wheat” from the “chaff” (Matthew 13:24-32 and Luke 3:17) in terms of the extra-biblical sources. Spoiler alert! This book does not prove that women have ever received what the Catholic Church terms the “ministerial priesthood”. In my opinion, she does prove that the Catholic Church’s current conventional narrative (CCC 1577) about how the apostles only chose men as their ordained collaborators and only had men for liturgical service is false. She proves this in the chapter on women preachers and baptizers. However there is a conspicuous lack of narrative evidence that the women apostles Nino Thecla, and Irene ever conferred the sacrament of Confirmation (Acts 8: 14-17 and Acts 19:1-7) or Order (Acts 6:-1-7, Acts 13: 1-3) To be fair there are some excellent novels and histories (2nd century) based on earlier oral traditions that were written down by early Christians. Unfortunately, later church authorities downgraded women's leadership and these true stories that were handed down from generation to generation were censored or destroyed. Kateusz tries to undo that damage. One of the gems of this book comes when Kateusz proves that honoring Mary as the mother of God (Theotokos) was universal among Christians before the Council of Ephesus. Let the reader be warned! There is a lot of “chaff” in this book where the author completely brakes with the actual Bible and the Catholic faith. Here is the case in point, Kateusz claims that Mary offers herself along with Christ at the Last Supper. Obviously, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John could not have forgotten that. If what Kateusz puts forward is true, then all she has done is call the reliability of the canonical Gospels into doubt. So, at that point she is basically adding whatever she likes to the Catholic religion. Second, she wants to throw 1 Timothy out of the Bible because she claims that it can't be reconciled with her thesis. The third instance of chaff in her book comes when she unfortunately sites doctrinally unreliable texts like the Acts of Phillip alongside good doctrinally sound texts like the Life of Thecla. Here is some of the good “wheat” that is on display in Kateusz’s book. Kateusz argues persuasively that the Six Books written down in the 2nd century are based on older Apostolic oral traditions about Mary the Mother of God. The Six Books were read in Christian churches and are probably the most reliable extra biblical sources that the author analyzes. She looks for common events in Mary's life and ministry that are present in this source and the Dormition narratives of Mary’s death, as well as The Life of the Virgin associated with Maximus the Confessor, the Protoevangelium of James, and the Gospel of Bartholomew. The chapter on women preachers and baptizers proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the women deacons from Roman 16:1 and 1 Timothy 3:11 were commissioned to preach, baptize, and oversee new Church communities in mission territory. It is believable that they could have been the religious leaders for these communities until male presbyters and apostles could arrive who would have been able to confirm the converts and set up local presbyters. It is notable that Kateusz cannot present a scrap of evidence that the female apostles were ordaining presbyters for their communities. Confirming and Ordaining are among the first things that Paul does when he arrives in a community. Here are some other highlights • The book confirms what Hans Urs Von Balthasar theorized about Mary being the greatest theologian. Kateusz shows that early Christian oral tradition describes Mary sending out a group of (male and female) missionaries from Jerusalem, supervising their preaching, and giving them further instruction. • Many early Christians believed that Mary's religious leadership was fully equivalent to the male apostle’s “high priesthood”. This is demonstrated by how the Protoevangelium of James has Mary twice entering the Holy of Holies in the Jerusalem Temple and by Romans 16:7. The Gospel of James or the Protoevangelium of James is always going to be a good witness to the Marian beliefs of Christians that lived in the first centuries however there are serious doubts about its historical reliability. • Early traditions have Mary offering her prayers along with liturgical incense in an action that was later restricted to Ministerial Priests. • The Life of the Virgin is part “wheat” and part “chaff”. It has some value in bringing out Mary's leadership in the early community. However, the author’s contention that Mary offered herself as priest and victim along with Christ at the Last Supper borders on blasphemy. Once again this isn't about being for or against patriarchal Catholicism this is just about being consistent in Catholicism’s understanding of the canonical Gospels. You simply cannot add Mary co- presiding at the Last Supper and still cite the canonical Bible as an infallible witness to Jesus’s life and ministry. • Kateusz relies on early Christian catechisms like the (Didascalia Apostolorum) and written collections of oral tradition to conclude that it was common in the early church to have two presiders at the Eucharist one male and one female (father and mother). She thinks that this demonstrates that women were ministerial priests. However, there is no reason to think that a female deacon couldn't co-preside. This is much more consistent with the canonical New Testament than believing that females transubstantiated the Eucharist. Remember other than consecrating the Eucharist deacons (in the 1st century) basically could do everything presbyters did in the early Church. That is why St. John Chrysostom expressed confusion about whether he was in fact reading about the deacons (and not presbyters) in Acts chapter 6. They seemed to him to be demonstrating the managerial, pastoral, and other non-sacramental responsibilities that were only given to presbyters in St. John Chrysostom’s time. One of the highlights of this book is learning how early Christian writing and art proves how Jesus and Mary are inseparable. It proves that doctrinally orthodox Christians venerated and prayed to Mary in the 2nd and 3rd centuries without any doctrinal guidance from the Church. Another joy is learning about how central Mary’s leadership was in the founding of Christianity. I could see that the author probably has multiple PHD's in art history because she spent a lot of time analyzing the symbols inside historical church artworks. Her argument for women priests is basically this. Roman 16: 7 and reliable oral traditions from the 1st and 2nd century agree that women were given the extraordinary title “apostle”. Furthermore, the author's analysis of art history reveals that artwork inside Catholic churches and monasteries depicts women wearing a symbol of priestly ministry. Artwork is clearly very subjective even if you do have multiple degrees in art history. For me the decisive point is this, if author’s argument for women priests were correct her Life of Thecla would have Thecla performing the sacrament of Confirmation (laying on his hands) as well as baptizing. That along with the fact that Paul easily could have included a simple one sentence note about women priests in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 just as he did with women deacons a few sentences later are the two fundamental reasons that I don't believe the author's argument for women priests. That being said I still enjoyed the majority of her book.

@NMcRae Жыл бұрын

Hard to keep people with so much to share within 3 minutes. 😂 Very informative and thoughtful. Too bad some yellers had to intrude.

@douglaswebster1028 2 жыл бұрын

We wouldn't be having this discussion had Jesus appointed at least one of the twelve a woman, but He didn't!

@nicksanders9148 2 жыл бұрын

but remember the story with mary and martha tho, we should not being talking about it tho i agree with that

@Bible33AD 2 жыл бұрын

He could have appointed one non-Jew. He didn't! So should a gentile never preach the Gospel. You slandered Jesus but don't realize it. You should. For your own sake.

@ValerieM8 2 жыл бұрын

He was following the rules to be a Rabbi. He was given certain respect, access and allowances with the required 12 "official" disciples. I suspect the society of the day would not have permitted his ministry to last a month if he had officially declared Mary, for example, as one of the 12. The heavily patriarchal society just couldn't have accepted it and His ministry would have gone nowhere. Yet Mary was there the whole time apparently. And Jesus certainly didn't seem to have a problem with it. And he broke the lesser rules all the time - speaking to women in open-air settings (and a Samaritan, at that!), healing on the Sabbath, plucking wheat on the Sabbath, etc. Of course, this eventually got him killed, but it took time for the Pharisees to come up with something to convince the Romans to agree to put Him to death. The people liked Him too much requiring the Pharisees to be very careful and deliberate. Good thing He had gotten in all He needed to say and do by then. ;-) It's like He knew just the best way to go about things under the circumstances. :)

@heymichaelc 2 жыл бұрын

Not not only did Jesus not appoint women, the apostles followed the same.

@harveybarham 3 жыл бұрын

So the implicit overrides and supersedes the explicit? So the Text in Romans describing Phoebe and Junia as one a deaconess and the other an apostle is more authoritative and therefore more instructive than Paul’s specific, prescriptive prohibitions in Ephesians, Corinthians and Timothy???

@nicksanders9148 2 жыл бұрын

yes look up steve Denoons teaching on women and translations, you wont regret it!

@nanette3900 2 жыл бұрын

Paul also stated there is no male or female in Christ. What he wrote in specific personal letters was not to instruct all churches and some indicate he was actually quoting jews to argue against their mindset. Hence his words we are all equal in Christ.

@dougmasters4561 Жыл бұрын

@@nanette3900one verse doesnt erase the other You cannot ignore that Paul said women cant have priestly authority in the church by Paul also saying there is no male or female on Christ. We are OBVIOUELY male and female. We obviously live as male and female and have been given some, however little, specific male and female directives.

@paulsemakula8600 10 ай бұрын

@@dougmasters4561 hi I think you would find that Paul never said women can’t be priest and the New Testament priesthood is of all believers no distinction based on sex.

@dougmasters4561 10 ай бұрын

@@paulsemakula8600 but he does say that.

@debbiekling6065 Жыл бұрын

Jesus will set it straight one day

@Maxandshe 10 ай бұрын

I was shocked to discover that a famous Bible college only instructs males into pastoral roles. It makes me wonder what God thinks.