Is MTG Arena Shuffling Rigged??

[@Jesterrr21]

The fact that we lose to 100-200 card decks as often as focused 60 card decks, speaks for it's self. These decks would never compete consistently at paper tournament.

[@redcenturion88]

omfg this. its a huge problem in historic

[@sebas8225]

Those 100-200 decks are essentially the only effective way to use the algorithm and beat miller decks all day long, the alt of using graveyard eff cards is useless against miller decks since the algorithm sets you up to have those cards at the bottom of your deck thus making them useless.

[@Devin____99]

Keep a hand with 4 land, next draw is a land. Keep a hand with 2 land, you’re not getting a land until you’ve already lost the game

[@jamest358]

I've also notice that. That's why I immediately concede the game if I miss my 3rd land drop

[@Celticninja011]

@@jamest358 i do the exact same thing.

[@thescoon1]

Statistical anomalies happen every time I play. Today, I drew 6 lands in a row in a 16/24 40 card deck, then drew 5 lands in a row in a 17/23 40 card deck within 4 games of each other. The chances of drawing 6 lands in a row with those ratios in less than 1%. Seeing it twice in 5 games is not bad luck, it's bad algorithm, and it happens all the time.

[@joaogrrr]

It's not bad, it's "working as intended"

[@ted6462]

It's manipulating you on purposed. The purpose is to make WoTC money and to keep you gambling and spending money.

[@eyesofthefox]

I got 7 lands in a row off draw with 24 lands on more than a few occasions...

[@mattisjoey711]

i got a folder full of mathematical impossible scenarios that i get with MTG arena's shuffler

[@youbluethatone1017]

Sure 🤔

[@eyesofthefox]

I hate how Arena influencers that make mythic decks evey day refuse to admit that the shuffler is rigged because it takes away from their clout.

[@nicolbolas8758]

I am mythic player and not netdecker making my own control decks, but this stuff shuffle is really bothering me. I remember few years ago my mate said something wrong (he played paper alot) I thought he just losing and angry, but turns out he was right about draw cards.

[@anannoyedpanda]

​@@nicolbolas8758 You can't be a mythic player playing control sorry bud.

[@nicolbolas8758]

@@anannoyedpanda should I drop screens? Or vids? Right now playing jeksai apparatus, my friend using azorius apparatus also myth

[@anannoyedpanda]

@@nicolbolas8758 You don't seem to understand. If you control, you aren't worth being a mythic player. Mythic players know how to play the game, not just tell others they can't.

[@nicolbolas8758]

@@anannoyedpanda why not worth wtf is this 😂 what are you talking about

[@cavemantero]

FUK YEAH ITS RIGGED. I have over a hundred opening hand photos showing 3 of kind, full houses, etc, that should be impossible considering the odds compared to poker hands that only have 52 cards in a deck where as I play consistently, 61-80 (due to mill and shuffler fuckery making 60 card deck efficiency irrelevant). The worst part of the shuffler is that it CLUMPS your lands and intentionally so...typically if you have a +50% win rate either by streak or with a certain deck. It riggs your hand positively when its wants to fuk over your opponent or the other way around in favor of your opponent when it wants to fuk you over. How many game have you had a 3 win streak only to get absolutely steam rolled by perfect opening hand god-curve? This is why the power creep in the card design is such a HUGE PROBLEM...the more often players can win on turn 1-3 the easier it is to rig the hand for or against someone. This is all with the intention of generating what is known in gaming development as the 'frustration' mechanism or mechanics which attempts to get players to spend more.

[@Cindershadow]

either way, the shuffling is this way for everyone. It is not so much frustration but more the limits of the programing

[@thescoon1]

The key in this comment is the fact that when you follow your wins as well as your losses, the rigging becomes more apparent. I have perhaps 1 or 2 actual close games in about 10 matches; the rest are either me steamrolling or being steamrolled. This isn't reflective of playing paper Magic, where most of my games are actually interesting. The number of times I've gotten to 3 wins in draft, only to find my openers start to degenerate. I see more single-coloured mana in openers, 4+ land hands, 1 land hands... I also don't believe you're always matched up against those with the same win-rate, making it more likely that no one profits from a draft.

[@IeuroI]

THANK YOU.

[@ted6462]

@@thescoon1 Yup, it's WotC promoting addictive behavior through manipulation. Anything to get you spending money--harmful doesn't matter to them.

[@morgan6321]

So happy others have noticed the rule of three

[@jwark04]

All I know is I never had any of these issues with mtgo. With arena the most improbable card is always drawn every single game. A lot of people are not comparing it to paper they're comparing it to mtgo.

[@Cindershadow]

Mtgo a long time ago was much like this in researching this topic. Something from then and now changed to make it better. But the bo 1 draws are highly sus

[@treasurehunt7812]

I can play this game and generate the same results, repeatedly. The conversation about the shuffling algorithm being inadequate or flawed is not the point. The point is after a series of game the shuffler begins to flood you with land or starve you of land. The shuffler works fine. Use a deck for repeated wins over a concerted period and then land flood / drought. Delete the deck, rebuild the identical deck, play again - problem fixed. Then, after winning for a concerted period, again, back to mana flood / drought. They're rigging the game to frustrate players into making purchases. Just like Wargaming does. Just like Pearl Abyss does. All of the talk from Wizards about the shuffler being imperfect is just a bunch of BS, and a distraction from the real issue. It's them pretending to admit guilt, without admitting the truth, which lends them credibility. But here is the thing - MATH... ever heard of it?

[@treasurehunt7812]

I should add, I'm talking about the ranked single games, and non ranked, but not the drafts, etc.

[@SWUDAD]

best of 3 ranked is just as bad... same thing.. after you have a series of wins in a row you get matched up against decks that you have a 20-40% win percentage against in general... they will go first most of the time in game 1, and your win percentage will slowly creep back towards 50%

[@Jatran]

I just got into it myself and cannot believe how this game holds people's hands. They rig MMR ranking by concede exploit, and then the shuffler algorithm either rewards them with a perfect land ratio/legendaries and handicaps their opponent. This is all because the algorithm is dictating what is "skill" instead of being random. Duels of planeswalkers never had this issue. Those games were amazing.

[@jonburnett90]

I could swear I noticed I won a lot more when I would spend money than I did when I used in game earned currency exclusively. Very few times have I had a good game of mtga. The vast majority of games I played were won or lost by mana screw/flood.

[@bobtower66]

I got into arena because I thought it would be a card game with life like variables, what I got was a video game with matchmaking to make everyone win at least 1 out of 3 games to encourage you to open your wallet.

[@wildhearses]

I play duel color decks with even amounts of both colors- sometimes I'll draw 6 of one color mana and NONE of the other color. This seems to be happening more frequently recently.Sure, in a thousand games this could randomly happen, but it shouldn't happen several times a day. Not to mention having 4 of a card in a 60 card deck, and getting three of that card in an opening hand in some games but not seeing that card at all in other games. Me and my boyfriend bought physical decks during the pandemic and I thought playing arena would squash "bad shuffling" and give me a perfectly random draw, but it seems almost worse as my draws seem really lopsided in unlikely and unuseful ways.

[@DeadxBreadx]

"that's correct." Oh I didn't know we could just say that. "I'm the best." THATS CORRECT

[@darkside6215]

Very instructive. As an old gamer who spend way too much time on video games in general, i appreciate your analyze since i'm disgusted by p2w and scripted games. Most of the games that include a "randomness factor" are scripted nowadays... And it's been going on for a long time. The sad thing is our kids are growing up with this false sense of achievement and in a "pay to win" mindset... and since they are growing up with it as a normality, they will have a harder time than us to see what's going on in those games. I miss the time when games were made by passionate gamers and not greedy businessmen... taking advantage of young brains to milk money.

[@riffcrypt8438]

I played a bit in Eldraine/Theros. Came back and H O L Y S H I T. They have made the rigging so much more obvious, extreme, and brazen it's sickening. With them now holding big money tournaments on the platform I seriously hope someone drops some helpful hints to gaming commissions to get this predatory dumpster fire of shit flushed once and for all, they don't react to fondly to rigged competitions. I can't in good conscious even buy paper magic knowing the type of stuff they do. Good riddance.

[@thefinalboss2403]

They turn it off for competition for the exact reason that they could be sued. They are blatantly spitting in the consumers face.

[@riffcrypt8438]

@@thefinalboss2403 Yup. Back when I made this comment I wasn't aware of the extent to which "engagement optimized match making" had infected all competitive free-to-play games. It is beyond nefarious as it keeps people manipulated into playing, purposefully giving bad matchups to keep you on the cycle of chasing ranks or daily quests, while knowing exactly how long to push you before finally feeding you a few wins to keep you addicted. Very similar to how slot machines work.

[@thefinalboss2403]

@@riffcrypt8438 legalized gambling for children

[@alexgill484]

Try a new deck, buy just one pack to their store and then stop going to the shop...you'll see the anomalies beginning to multiply....go back to the store and buy something again and then boom....anomalies are gone for a moment...coincidence? (reminds me a bit of the famous "Doom Switch" of MTGO)

[@johnhammond6225]

I've been playing Arena for a week after about 20 years of irl play. This game is aweful. The amount of 2 and 3 copies I draw within 2 draws in insane. The Mulligan's are aweful. This is by far the most inorganic trash way to play MTG. I am still confused how everyone doesn't notice this and shit on arena.

[@thefinalboss2403]

Yes. How is this even a question? Anyone who has played the physical game will recognize a problem by game 10 of arena. It's a huge scam. And a joke.

[@d.g.p1900]

Magic the gathering : algorithm puzzle

[@cmunee8935]

If you play decks that would usually allow you to farm wins for stuff, they match you against counter decks or give you shitty hands. Can't have you getting all the stuff you need without spending money. Gonna try to get a high ranking? Forget about it unless you've bought the pass and/or bought a bunch of diamonds. The entire shuffle is designed around improving the experience of users who spend more money. When you bring it up on the forums/subreddit, you're met with a huge wall of users defending the game with the logic that a major company that makes millions of dollars isn't going to rig their game to make more money for them... ...how the fuck can they live in the same, capitalist planet the rest of us do? I'm down for a class action, if only to force them to stop this horrible ass shit.

[@bobtower66]

People like that are why con-men are able to make money, why pyramid schemes work and why i get 6-8 phone calls a day from scammers. They're blind to what everybody else can easily see and it's an arrogant blindness which makes them insufferable to try and have a discussion with. I wish we could have a updated mtg:o as far as I'm aware the shuffler in that game isn't set up to rig the outcome of the game to encourage spending.

[@thefinalboss2403]

We need to lobby our politicians to make these practices illegal.

[@DrEvo1983]

I’ve noticed there is an issue with lands. The first few games I play the deck seems smooth. After I win a few times I get a CONSISTENT type of draw. I’ve made a POINT that every time I get a crucible of worlds, to pull out lands early and often. I will draw a land and pull a land for most of the remainder of the game. I will sometimes draw something that will not impact the board typically. I have built the same decks in paper to a T. The difference is night and day. The amount of times I’ve done this is a lot. It’s like hitting the lottery like 4-7 times a day. It also gives new players a false sense of accomplishment.

[@headlessfool7050]

When this happens, try the following : export the Deck in Arena Clien ( putting it onto clipboard ) . Save the Decklist in a *txt File . Delete the Deck in Arena Client . Createa new Deck via the + Button in the Client, and simply recreate your Deck, but manually ( do not import it ) . I also add the subtlety to give the "new" Deck a different Name . Most likely, you will find your draws will be as s mooth as when you frist started playing with the Deck - may take a few,

[@KrepsyK]

Id like for them to come out woth the information on the multiple hand pick and how it affects the base program

[@ted6462]

They won't because then they would show everyone how it is designed to keep people addicted through conditioning. It's disgusting and solely there to corrupt people and line their pockets.

[@SWUDAD]

@@ted6462 exactly.. it's designed to elicit dopamine and get you highly addicted... absolutely disgusting and vile

[@dreadmoc12]

Izzet Dragons (Seth Manfield list) deals 4 Goldspan Dragon and 3 Prismari. That's every Dragon in the deck. It's a great poker hand. But we're all just supposed buy a truck load of bullshit, smile and say, " shuffle is fine". It's not a fucking joke when Arena is stealing your money. Purchase some gems to play draft, because you love draft, get cheated day in and day out until you feel like shit because you tried to believe it was fair. It's a scam.

[@ivancito7790]

I quit MtG and moved onto Yu-Gi-Oh because of how awful Arena is, and how much better than it Master Duel is. I play 3 different digital card games: Master Duel Arena and the Japan only Duel Masters Plays. In Yu-Gi-Oh and Duel Masters I have a 70% win rate... Only in Arena am I hovering at around 50% The game is 100% rigged and WotC are absolute scumbags. Stop giving them money and playing their garbage game when better alternatives exist. WotC don't deserve people's time or money.

[@nickoslekkas3336]

shuffler aside, it seems that matchmaking is kinda rigged, for example when you play graveyard builds you come across far more decks with anti graveyard mechanics(bo1) or with heavy control decks you are matched against hyper agroo etc it seems that the game try to force you into a 50% win rate.

[@sonichog]

Pretty sure WoTC confirmed this too

[@nickoslekkas3336]

@@sonichog nice XD

[@KrepsyK]

The matchmaker is admittedly rigged

[@94Fabius]

Especially in BO1

[@Cindershadow]

yes the matchmaking is this way, really bad for brawl as they just match commanders up. the matchmaking could be subject to a reverse engineering to get better matchups, but they do take a bit of ELO-thats your account rating, into it

[@sponkmyers7478]

I will quit a every game on turn 3 if i don't have 2 mana on the borde. The game is rigged and i wont waste my time dragging out the game.

[@cholland67]

Yea it's rigged. It's one of the reasons I quit arena. I never had the choice of going first. The times I got to go first, it was automatic

[@d.g.p1900]

The match making based, roughly my calculation is you got 1st... In 7game got one at least... Which is... Is my bias expectation... My/your opponent has been 2nd for 6 game mostly...(and probably lose strike) and you become they lose breaker...

[@alexruas6235]

rigged? not at all, im just going to commit a war crime if i get 4 out my 9 spells in my initial hand again

[@Ragmesesis]

What about the matchmaking? I play combo allways Control i play aggro allways combo i play Control allways aggro....

[@Cindershadow]

that is its own issue

[@Ragmesesis]

@@Cindershadow fun fact the day i put some Money 10-0 after That day 0-11

[@Cindershadow]

geez that sounds ruff

[@Ragmesesis]

@@Cindershadow I play Magic almost Every day in Arena and on paper, Standard, Historic, Pioneer, Modern, Pauper, Legacy and cEDH. Won some tournaments, and reach First month mythic in Arena the Fist month i played ranked That was december since then i got Platinum 3 and Diamond 1 and Now im not playing. Its harder now the Shuffling messes a lot of my games plus the Matches pairing. With a fun deck i had it pair me 15 Times against Sultai ultimatum, when i Change deck the matchmaking puts me up with a bad matchup. Besides you have videos That prove the algorithm 1card of each and 1 Basic land play against sparky an tell me how many times the Basic land Will be in your hand and try mulligan until 0 cards. Try That and then talk to me lolol.

[@3v3pirat37]

Explain it however you wish. I just played 10 games in a row, lost every single one due to mana flood. Used 4 different decks all with 21-25 mana. I drew 9 mana in a row in 4 /10. Its rigged as fuck and im 100% done. They can piss up a rope.

[@Cindershadow]

Yep the game is beyond rigged and the decline is real

[@3v3pirat37]

@@Cindershadow Funny thing just happened. Starting hand was 3 lands with 4 other cards. No bullshit I just drew 17 lands cards in a row , then a single archfiend of dross, then 2 more lands. How the fuck is that even possible lmao. I pulled all but 5 land cars. I was only playing because my gf wanted to try it so i was showing her how and then this happened. Utter bullshit.

[@abochavez]

What do you all say they let us cut the deck after each shuffle?

[@abochavez]

And I mean cut it anywhere we want.

[@sebas8225]

If it's a split in half then rejoined deck at least my graveyard eff cards wouldnt have to stay at the bottom of the deck all game long.

[@WingsOfPhilosophy]

The algorithm >deciding< what ought to be in my hand and doing some fancy nonsese - that's riggin! Like, I have 4 of X and 4 of Y - but I'll barely ever get Y since, that's how it feels, I'm not supposed to play it as I intended.

[@knessing7681]

So I've constructed an Elf 69 card deck that's suppose to have near zero mana drought ... by turn 3 I should have 4 to 5 mana (due to elves giving mana) ... if not by my 6th draw I should have a steady flow of mana, but nope. Mana engine can never quit start after turn two, you can forget about turn one, due to extremely bad starting draws with 1 or 2 lands (mulligans does not fix the land issues like they say). *Then the Card Clumping and Deck Bias issues* ... half the time when my opening hand looks to have a alright mana curve, I already know the other deck has a Thoughtseize/duress (the game is that predictable for me now) in their opening hand, ontop of that they would have (drawn) 2 to 3 thoughtsieze/duress by their 5th draws. Or I would draw 2-3 Crashing canopy against a deck with no artifacts or Flyers by my 6th or 7th draw or I would draw none against decks with flyers/artifacts. And it is a consistent issue with this deck bias. And of course you throw in the Mana Flooding (regular thing). Out of 50 games 38 lost to 12 wins. 8 of those wins the mana curve was normal and the deck worked as intended, out of the losses 50%-60% Flooding, 40%-30% Drought on top of card clumping and deck bias issues. But atleast there's 95% zero mana, draw, and clumping issues when played 50 times against sparky, it's as if the game uses more than one shuffling and card countering algorithms.

[@isaaczafuto9949]

All I know is if I don't use 24 lands in a 60 card deck I'm getting maybe 3 the whole game with 23 land in the deck. Put that last extra land in and the deck plays great again.

[@Threewulphmoon]

Right? Never disobey the suggest lands button lol

[@_APG_]

Yes it's rigged, just like many other modern microtransaction based online multiplayer games. The reason it's rigged? ---> Player churn and money. KZbin won't allow me to post links, but look up EOMM (Engagement Online Mutiplayer Matchmaking.) Basically by NOT rigging the game to attempt to force certain outcomes vs certain players at certain times it actually costs the company operating the game MILLIONS of dollars per year in player churn. If they didn't rig the game it would cause players to leave the game far more often than when it's rigged against them to force more win-lose-win-lose rather than win-win-win or lose-lose-lose. It's unfortunate, but it's just the science and psychology behind it.

[@antoniomendes7171]

Now that we now the shuffler is rigged what we should do is how to trick the shuffler in our favour?

[@Cindershadow]

Well one thing that was going around at the time of this video was a 13 land red deck, which I think you can still pull off in historic.

[@SWUDAD]

use different kinds of basic lands... use decks that don't have a lot of rares

[@Carcaroff87]

Keep giving them money?

[@Wolfsspinne]

Your incorrect at the snipped of ends of the bell-curve. Both ends are the absolute worst, one being seven lands, the other being seven 5 drops.

[@SonoSarcastico4224]

Well when a game puts u against your worst counter deck which sees the right lands and the perfect curve , saying It Is rigged Is reductive

[@trackatlas6626]

Seriously. Whenever I keep running into a deck I find annoying (like cycling or shrines), I make a hate deck for it. Then when I start playing the hate deck, I never get paired with the original deck I MADE the hate deck to play against.

[@Cindershadow]

Yep that's the MMR at work, match making ratio. A bunch of hidden stats that will pin u up against your counters. It is really fustrating when you have a deck idea but because I've played arena so much my played games stat is so high I always get tier one opponents

[@sebas8225]

@@trackatlas6626 I hate Shrines and millers so much, even tried to run graveyard eff cards to beat miller decks but if the algorithm wants you to lose you'll by putting those cards at the bottom of your deck.

[@lightworkmusic3813]

Yeah I was playing a pretty fun boros equipment and continuously got paired with white lifegain decks. This is the exact counter because my deck relies on tricks involving equipment and switching equipment out. It’s all about going tall with each creature rather than having a ton of them. When someone repeatedly has combos that cause lifegain, counters and makes creatures flyers there’s nothing you can do and THATS FINE. I’m okay with cheesers playing cheese, but when I go and add some cards specifically to counter what I thought the meta was (I just assumed this was THE deck everyone was playing) something changed and then I’m only facing control over and over back to back that doesn’t give a damn about the new additions I sideboarded in so to speak. It’s totally not random. Imagine a judge at a tournament looking at decks and then deciding who plays who based on ANY criteria besides wins.

[@daniellee8162]

I just got into it to get back into MtG. Like many games using "random" RNG online, I'm always skeptical...essentially when it comes to profit. Anytime there is any human manipulation to direct something like shuffling, it means there is other tgings going on and it isn't in our best interest. Arena is not competitive play, simple as that. Until it becomes a fair play, and yes that may mean bigger money will be likely have a advantage, I will never put a cent on this game online.

[@Devin____99]

It also seems to be that rarity almost plays a role in your hand? I could put 4 mystics of the same card in a 60 card deck, as well as 4 rare. You’ll almost always pull some type of hand with those rare, it’s almost like the mystics are mystic rare in the damn deck!

[@mokaPCP]

Not having any lands or drawing several lands in a row exactly when the opponent needs a breather for a combo happens SO often its insane. Playing irl those things happen maybe 3/10 times, in arena it happens in 7/10 games at least. Its disgusting.

[@magiccardmaster9921]

I have played way too many games where I don't draw any lands or too many it's grouping like cards. Funny, I always seem to lose to their people who have paid them a lot or people with ridiculous deck counts. I have basically stopped playing arena and will only hop on every few months to play a few games of brawl. If I gonna get screwed for not paying them then I'm not playing it

[@nuggets1356]

60 card deck, 26 lands, see only 3 lands until turn 8 to 9 in 5 games in a row. Shouldn't happen. Actual probability says i should see 4 lands to play most games by turn 5 to turn 6 at the latest. Their shuffler is broken and its trash. Shouldn't be hard to make a shuffler thats actually random. Never played another online card game where the shuffler alone screws me out of a fair chance to win games.

[@headlessfool7050]

"Serious" Card games use a different pRNG than MTG:A to generate the sequence which is then fed into the Shuffler . The issues are actually well known ^^ .

[@deltaquadrant5861]

Old post but I t is rigged if I have a deck with flying guess who majority my appointments will be yes the same kinda of decks now I can play arggo red I don't see the flying deck oh what exactly

[@Deathmperor]

I just found out the other week I do shuffle incorrectly lol been having mana clumped together or getting the same cards every edh game. Bit as for mtga I abuse the shuffler playing rakdos treasure running 18 lands and I still flood

[@KestrelForever]

I feel like the huge problem here is that it tries to shuffle the entire deck even when it's all unknown. If you need cards revealed, just roll 1d60 (or 1d40, 1d39, etc) for each card that needs to be determined. Any cards that haven't been seen stay as a lump of unknown.

[@king_leo9664]

Do not spend money in Arena, its a good time killer if you choose to play it with that, but it is 100% rigged to make you spend money.

[@epicpeppy2977]

Iv always wondered about this, it seemed a little off. One way I think it is "rigged" is when you play brawl games. As a player I find myself paired against certain commanders when I have a specific commander. What makes me think this even more is because of match making times too. One commander deck can take seconds while others a minute plus.

[@SWUDAD]

when it takes longer its as if the match making system is looking for a matchup that is more evenly paired (has the same amount of rares, an equal win percentage, or a deck that is a terrible matchup to help bring your win percentage back to 50%)

[@seanskywalker1620]

Got my sub, excellent vid!

[@Shannon_Vlogs]

Yes.

[@Shannon_Vlogs]

Really tho- I was watching Des’s stream one time and he explained how it was difficult to code for true randomization

[@Shannon_Vlogs]

11 mins in and you mentioned Des too 😂

[@cavemantero]

@@Shannon_Vlogs its not difficult for true randomization though (well...as true as the processor will allow)...there are algorithms already out there that can simply be copied...the rigging in Arena is far beyond this though..it is completely rigged to get you to break down and spend. Its a horrid model that is created to exploit whales and highly addictive personalities.

[@Shannon_Vlogs]

@@cavemantero really? Well they’re not doing a great job. I have never felt compelled to buy based on cards I did or did not draw during a game

[@Cindershadow]

you cannot do with with using unity as the base program. that's part of the issues.

[@leto7789]

THANK YOU!!! EXACTLY!!!

[@eyesofthefox]

Ive found when i have more than 24 lands, i get less lands most of the time in my opening hand, when i have less than 24 i tend to get more lands in my opening hand...seems backwards...

[@Cindershadow]

This is correct. The backend will calculate priority hands based on the number you put in and based on over all casting cost

[@SonictheBedHog]

They made a card with the word “Rigging” so now its harder to see Arena Rigging videos.

[@ProjectFallenLeaf]

seriously i thought i was crazy and they still havent done anything

[@GriffRunning]

Yes. The answer is objectively yes.

[@danielsonlisik534]

When you play with your friendlist you can see the difference

[@Cindershadow]

100%

[@seb7391]

Why don't they publish the code? There should be nothing to protect there. Their success is based on marketing and design, the code is a no brainer for this type of game.

[@bobtower66]

Activision uses a matchmaking system that they put a patent on. It encourages players to spend money by looking at the players gear and matching them more often with other players who have spent money. Trying to get the player to spend money. Arena could have a similar thing working in the code. If players knew that would they continue to play this "card" game?

[@Wolfsspinne]

I'd love to see some statistics... As people blame (bad) luck on literally everything (look how many omens of good/bad fortune exist in the world), I usually distrust people saying something in particular caused their bad luck. Sure the shuffler works within mathematical limits, but do these limits affect the outcome in a predictable manner? Aand does the Fisher-Yates algorithm exclude more good/bad draws? Like what's the difference in missing 90% of all existing permutations for a deck if you still had the same amount of good/bad/mediocre results?

[@Cindershadow]

yes bad luck does happen, and so does good luck. with the algorithm it is causing a less then expected results compared to paper. Also with the algorithm they are eliminating a large certain number of possibilities in an attempt to try and make a pseudo random approach to the game. The closest statistics we have is the million game test, however they are flawed vs true random of paper games, as with the entire game of probabilities. There has been many times, during my live streams, I can predict the cards being drawn, with knowing decks and how the shuffler is reacting. Questions i am having, is if the seed generated is redone when you shuffle your deck, or is the seed just placed at a random point in the sequence. Also if from game to game if the shuffler takes the base deck to generate the seed or if it takes and generates from the last seed that was generated. I have many questions myself and maybe one day I can get answers, or one day wotc can have a much better randomization engine.

[@ramacass108]

The coin flip to see who goes first is NOT random. If you buy something with $ you will go first more often. Period.

[@Cindershadow]

Has never been proven. But what has been proven is if you create new decks over and over again you get better match ups. Also since this video if you tank your games you can do it to a point that you can rocket back to the top with a low enough MMR

[@NuronAtren]

I am new to MTG but I play with physical cards, mostly commander, but MTG Arena helps me learn the rules for playing.

[@Cindershadow]

Yea learning the rules with arena is about the best thing of it. But the game has gone in the wrong direction since the beta, welcome to MTG

[@mrstrawhat9227]

you can now flaunt your knowledge of "the stack" at the table.

[@cavemantero]

DUDE...they have MTGO and no one complains about that.

[@Cindershadow]

They use to complain on mtgo

[@d.g.p1900]

They use to

[@fsmoura]

Heck, yeah! I swear that shuffler is out to get me! ( oДo) But I keep praying to RNGesus nonetheless 🎲 🙏

[@sebas8225]

The shuffler will put your graveyard eff cards at the bottom of your deck when pitted against miller decks.

[@justinnee8558]

i also noticed how everyone always has the best freaking hand for there deck and its always better then mine. or the mana flood is real. I play like 22 land decks andi can see 10 of my 22 lands in the first 5 turns pretty consistently. I hope for a day where wizards implements a real shuffler instead of trying to make all games fun make them authentic to what happens in card games. Sometimes you just get bad hands and lose.

[@coreywright6826]

It doesn't take 3 hours to explain that mtg arena is rigged in favor of those that spend money on the game. It doesn't take three hours to explain that while I was spending hundreds of dollars on mtg arena that I was consistently winning and consistently in mythic rank. It's not about paper vs digital. It's not about drawing the perfect hand every game. It's about players who don't otherwise have the means to spend large amounts of money on paper magic to be able to play the game they love and test their skills in a fair environment. I've net-decked decks from a few different arena top 8 lists that were otherwise very successful and competitive decks. The exact lists. I didn't have the same success as the pro-players. Not even close. Until influencers and pro-players stop brushing things under the rug and hiding behind "the numbers" or "the probabilities" and start to call out wizards on this problem, which they won't lest they want to lose sponsorships and money, it will continue. Period.

[@janarmstrong4945]

Instead of using all one mana picture … use different mana pictures of a given colour … the AI will see them as separate cards and mix them better

[@Cindershadow]

Yea you can do that with your land base

[@nicolbolas8758]

Confirmed?

[@steamsteamy]

I want to talk to a lawyer. This is supposed to be a "fair gaming" website/app. And mtga is not that.

[@headlessfool7050]

2 1/2 Years later... The RNG/Shuffler is not "Unity" . In another post, same guy from WotC informed that they re using MT19937 ( a pRNG ) which feeds a Fisher-Yates Shuffle . Most of the post you quoted he put up on reddit is akin to gaslighting . The gaslighting part is where he tries to tell people all is corrcet 'cos Math and people's observation just fooling them . Simply put, having MT19937 generate a sequence or order assigning Cards somehow, and then sending it through Fisher-Yates once will produce the results we all see every day when playing Arena - the clumping of Cards to absoultely hilariously improbable effect - given a certain method of assigning Values to cards before the actual shuffle . Then there are the questions about where does MT get the seed from, how (often)/when is it reseeded, how is the sequence cut, what is done to flush the twister, what is done to get it out of a bad state . In fact, many of the Problems we see on Arena seem to hint there simply is no real mechanism to check for whether MT has gotten into a bad State, and to fix it if so . And being prone to get stuck in a bad state, being hard to get out of and the seriality of outputs when in bad state are some of the best known Problems with MT . On a sidenote, that Algorithm - Mersenne Twister 19937 (32 bit period

[@Cindershadow]

Unity is the background of the base game, and Fisher Yates was the stated algorithm. Now the biggest question here at this time to when I made this video, how breakable is the 32 bit number, as someone discovered with the store by going 32bit+1 broke it, and they were able to buy millions of packs without spending a dime. So comes down, if you can play with other methods of the 32 bit number, like when desolator and I got over the number in life.

[@headlessfool7050]

@@Cindershadow The 2 32 bit integers mentioned are 2 different things . The problem with the overflow is basically a memory issue which could be prevented *easily* by restricting the possible inputs . The Mersenne twister ( which also is an Algorithm ) generates 32bit pseudorandom numbers - what I wrote above abt the 32 bit period is wrong, I recalled that incorrectly. The period ( = number of unique sequences it *can* produce bfore repeating itself ) is actually much bigger . Unity is the engine in which the Game is created/produced . p.s.: Im wacthing CovertGoBlue's Vid on the 13 Land RDW from 4 yearas ago atmo for laughs :) .

[@Cindershadow]

Nice. Either way from memory issues, and limits of unity and the RNG, and the predictability of arena it is not a fair way to play mtg at all. So many things are wrong with the program. I should go thru some old live streams of me calling out the cards off my deck. Also have the rigged drafting video, where lists of what is in packs that bots have

[@headlessfool7050]

@@Cindershadow In fact its like its "regardless of the details", the shuffler is broken, hand smoothing messes up starting Hands, matchmaking is a joke and in combination, those 3 leave ample room to either "rig" games or account for all the BS we constantly encounter that makes us think game is rigged . If I woulwd not think all this is done intentional for various reasons ( so yes, I tend to think its "rigged" ), i would find it sad . But then it DOES make me sad, since it would be SO easy to make this Game great, and actually resemble paper magic, and give people ample enjoyable gaming expeience - instead of the constant aggravation of the sour feeling to having to play against the algorithms and "inteneded" outcomes more than the opponenet, to the point that even many of the wins feel stale since you realize they just happened cos this time, it was oppo who got shafted . Maybe 1 in 5 games - if at all - feels like an actual Game of Magic, where we both have a fair chance to get our Decks humming , and it really is a test of Deck strength and a battle of wits .

[@MontviewBlvdBabiez]

Arena players think they're playing real MTG.... SMH. That crap is so fake! I feel bad for the people who spend thousands of dollars on that garbage...

[@joelauger5904]

I play a 100 card mono colour deck with 45 mana, and consistently get a flooded or drought, last game i played today 3 mana in starting hand and 25 turns without another before lossing, this should be nearly statistically impossible. It's just a bad system at best and straight up rigged at worst. They have made it overly complicated for what should be a very easy system. If it was random at all you would get hands, without mana or mostly mana but at the start but that never happens.

[@nicolbolas8758]

they should open random bo1 format

[@NetherVoiD]

This is outdated. The new MTGA who plays first is also rigged. I play every day for 1 month till my daily prize is all checked out, i always get to play first 2 to 3 times only out of all the games I play would be lucky if I have a 4th first play. But anyway they are accustomed in lying about fairness.

[@giorgosgernas9698]

Just take down the following stat from your own games. Bad hands when you are about to rank up vs overall bad hands

[@Cindershadow]

and opening with 2 lands in your hands in 80% of the cases will starve you

[@TheOblivionMemeGuy]

The solution? A cycling deck lol. I've drawn so many starting hands of 2-3 Boon of the Wishgivers which costs 7 mana. Thankfully I get to cycle every card in the deck for 1 mana so the shuffling algo can f itself lol

[@Cindershadow]

the surveil deck when it was in standard really broke this as well. being able to constantly toss cards away helped fix the land draws and more

[@joaogrrr]

The solution is not ever spending money on this game

[@SWUDAD]

the problem with this is that you get sick of playing the same deck, and than you hate arena even more for making this the only way you can enjoy the game

[@godfireprime]

losing 7 games in a row cuz you end up with 2 lands on turn 6. isn't a messed up shuffler?

[@NHTYSYX]

Mtga forces me to use forest cards like cultivate and cultivation etc...just to make up for lack of lands...

[@IeuroI]

zynga poker shuffles better than arena, and Yeesh, zynga poker is a straight garbage fire

[@DJVinyl]

Everyday I'm suffering ;3;/ JK

[@ramacass108]

How much is Wizards paying you?

[@Cindershadow]

Nothing. I have actually quit playing arena entirely because of the way the game is designed and the greed aspect of alchemy

[@Jeremy9697]

It's funny when someone explains a process and ppl say stupid stuff. Just because no one likes how the game may be rigged doesn't mean you can't understand how algorithms work without being biased.

[@georgemccann9141]

so places like manastack have deck builders and they are no way near as fucked as the rigged shittflur on MTGA and with the current cards considered too powerful for modern flooding historic???

[@erickbock1380]

The MTG algorithm divides players into: those who spend money and those who play for free. He gives those who spend money good hands and draw cards that are useful to them. The first 2 months that I spent money I had almost no good cards and yet I reached mythic in 10 or 12 days, when I stopped spending money I didn't reach mythic for like 8 months. Any other proof of MTG Arena fraud? Sorry for my english.

[@Cindershadow]

Unfortunately I have not seen this one. When I made this video so long ago it was mostly based off dev postings in a now deleted forum they use to post bugs and development. But off the MMR, match making ratio, and deck strength when you spend money on decks and cards early in a set it can put you ahead of the curve placing you against the other players doing the same thing. It is beating the wave that is coming of the free 2 play that are not quite at the level of cards, so it does make sense

[@erickbock1380]

@@Cindershadow All online games always have rewards for those who pay to play. What is the reward for those who pay to play in MTG Arena? It is clear that they are not the envelopes that are purchased, to think that would be silly. Therefore they must have other rewards and that is where the rigged algorithm comes in.

[@abochavez]

One drop Colorless, instant, cut target players deck.

[@Bantzhole]

This guy is simping hard for wizards. Acting like it's to much to code true random. Has absolutely no idea what he's talking about as it pertains to coding. Its not impossible wizards is just a greedy ass organization that would prefer the game be rigged vs spending time and money on a proper engine.

[@Cindershadow]

Idk how this was aiming for Wizards, I tried to break down the code of the game, it is not really possible to run this game straight up random as the shuffler, it has to run algorithm just because of the complexity of limitation with computers and variables for shuffling

[@Jeremy9697]

Anything in coding that seems like true randomness is not because true randomness doesn't feel random. Many studies have been done on this. Algorithms have to be used to make things seem random in any coding because true randomness never seems like it

[@riffcrypt8438]

Well, he isn't really simping for them as he states they aren't just using a simple system that would demand 0 computing power, like an honest system where you click to find an opponent and you just find an available person then in the match each card is assigned a number and then each draw is RNG. He states they make an entire unique seed for EACH DECK. The client struggles under the weight of the system that was made to rig the games. The video just doesn't highlight or press on this critical point.

[@elpelu123]

its working as intended haha! is just not good enough for the task... Like a bad shuffler!! LOL! oh snap! So its all about 32 bit limitation... lameness! 25:00 Are we getting into the nonsense region of the universe?

[@FutureSight666]

i got 9 lands in a row with a 1.5:2 ratio

[@sebas8225]

Thats insane.

[@elpelu123]

HAHAHA!!!! I just had a shuffler ranting run going...

[@LunarSoda17]

Yee.

[@billypoker7822]

micro transaction keeper, doom swithed triggered. they cover their tracks constantly.

[@stopUkrainewar666]

But would it be otherwise for a game that have been rigged by judge before ? ... nah

[@theroomfloor]

I honestly cant take what you’ve said seriously. Your telling me they cant fix the shuffler with for example a tiny bit of code on top that simply reorders cards that are stacked together in your deck? For example 10 lands all bunched together. You can add simple rules in very small bits of code that fix the issues with shuffling template they use and the engine it runs in. Im no programer, but a lot of what your saying is rubbish. The system is rugged deliberately its obvious to most

[@Cindershadow]

That tiny bit of code is so massive you need a super computer to hold each possibly, this is why they use an algorithm.

[@theroomfloor]

​@@Cindershadow This is rubbish again. You can have a tiny KB piece of code that states that when the condition is met of, for example, 5 lands together - move one of them to another part of the deck. Its not perfect, but would give the illusion of randomness. Its like putting garlic in a blender after you've already chopped it. Its easy, and I don't even know that much code but I could write this is Javascript!

[@bigbonerecords.4080]

Everything in MTG Arena is rigged.. Even the Random Player matches

[@CharlesPerrin-xr3cb]

That game is total crap

[@ramacass108]

Why are you trying to back up wizards of the Coast. when you start on MTGA you get fair shuffles and a fair chance of going first if you play for a couple months without buying anything you start going first maybe two out of 10 games and you start getting incredibly crappy draws when you play drafts or any other type of event it’s super clear their algorithm is rigged why are you trying to defend them? Do you think they seriously can’t just make a random generator for 60 cards and then just randomize some random order of 60 cards you seriously think that that’s beyond them?

[@Cindershadow]

The RNG with decks is not possible in computer programming and thus an algorithm must be used, combined with unity it creates a poor experience. I am in no way defending them, I want them to do a hell of a lot better, but MTG arena has become a shell of what it once was this program is very flawed

[@damurdaflock2097]

Lmao people talkin about 40 and 60 card decks try a 100 card deck i made it to mythic just 2 months ago

[@SomeDewd]

More bullshit to defend wotc. Anyone worth their snuff knows Algorithms can be manipulated. People do it all the time - this is not new. Korean MMO's do it all the time and many, many more.

[@stopUkrainewar666]

its 100% rigged

[@Raiden08110]

Another one bullshit facts for you (coming from Hearthstone btw): -Plays a game, needs thalia vs heavy control, nevers gets it until lost. Next game: thalia in hand. -Plays another game, needs Cathar vs heavy creature mirror match deck, never fucking gets it until lost. Next game guess what: yeah cathar is in hand. This was back to back games btw. Like fuck that.

[@way2bent]

I have had that kind of thing happen so many times it is ridiculous.

[@Michael-ib6ky]

Never attribute to malice what can easily be explained by incompetence. I don't think it's an evil conspiracy to make you lose games (shuffler, not matchmaking)- I think the algorithim is fucked.

[@PeterFlash]

"Never attribute to malice what can easily be explained by incompetence" I generally agree with this statement, but I do think that in this case it is possible that the matchmaking is "rigged" in some way to prevent players from quitting after a bad gaming session and to keep player engagement up. You could achieve this in multiple ways, the easiest being to rig the matchmaking itself and adjust the difficulty of opponents to "force" a win. It is also known that the devs are using tools to analyze deck strength, archetype and probably a lot of other ways to rate the strength of a deck and possible counters to it, so this could be another way. None of this is difficult to implement. Other F2P games already "rig" the matchmaking to stop people from quitting the game, so I don't think it's some "evil conspiracy". Too bad we will never know for sure.

[@SWUDAD]

Research "Engagement Optimized Matchmaking Framework".... basically a money making ecosystem that has been developed with these types of games to get people to spend more money, keep playing, and increase profit. for lack of a better phrase getting people addicted to the game so they are in a state of "Allostasis" and need more of the game going in their favor to feel better.... which to feel better with this game often means spending a lot more money to get better cards... think about why so many cards are "Rares", and why aren't their easier way to obtain like them like trading with other players, or selling cards???

[@thefinalboss2403]

It just happens to be broken in a way that makes them boatloads of cash... and never gets fixed... What a crazy coincidence! Nah bud. It's all very deliberate. It's obviously deliberate.

[@ctrlrun3149]

HS is rigged hots is rigged cs go is rigged valortant is rigged lol is rigged not sure about dota

[@tyst5927]

Not only is the shuffler rigged but who goes first is also rigged. In best of one I have gone 2nd like 15 times in a row once and many times its 8-10 times im a row on the draw.