Is pre-rinsing stupid? Let's find out!

[@PanTheOrganizer]

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[@tau_tv]

I like to rinse the car first with a regular hose sprayer to get any loose stuff off, then snow foam and rinse off with the pressure washer. Foam again and use mitts, pressure wash off.

[@ForensicDetailing]

Good stuff Pan its interesting this one. Heres the heart of it. When a dirt film layer is dry on the car. Then it has the ability to soak in a liquid. In the same way a dry piece of paper soaks in a liquid. Once the dirt film (or dry piece of paper example) is soaked with water it is saturated. It looses the ability to draw in more liquid at this point. So you then spray the dirt film thats saturated with water with your snow foam pre wash (which is a free rinsing non contact wash product) But the surfactant cannot be drawn into the dirt film because its saturated with water already. The water alone is a poor emulsifier of some types of winter road films we get in the UK. So the water rinse hampers the surfactant from penetrating and emulsifying the film. surfactants work by making materials which are not water soluable able to mix with water. But if they cant get to that material they cannot work. Dilution is also significantly lowered. Ive found on UK winter road film quite dramatic differences in product performance, AKA it works significantly better going on dry. Ive also been saying this for years but again Im not looking for universal agreement. plus wasting time, water and electricity or gas. Counter arguments are cooling a car with summer dust only with the water can be useful (yes) Extreme chunks of mud might be good to just blast off first (yes) not all road films are the same constitution some do break down well with water (mud splatter for example) so you might find its not always a big deal either way Or you might just feel rinsing with water first is the best way for you. Viva la difference! ;)

[@ObsessedGarage]

Jon, now we need to know what the more alkaline or heavier detergent/surfactant concentrated pre-washes do the protection layer. Are modern coatings chemical resistant enough resist getting jacked up by these cleaners? I think we'd all be cool with a coating losing a few months of longevity, but what if it cuts the life in half? Also, what happens longer-term to plastics, rubber, and trim?

[@PanTheOrganizer]

It’s always nice to exchange thoughts with you Jon! This is certainly a topic that gets people talking. I think people need to do some testing in their conditions, based on environmental conditions, what snow foam they use, which method yields the best results for them, and to use what works best after they do A and B testing. What works for me, with the insane winters and road salt that we are exposed to in Montreal, might be different for someone living in sunny California for example, or a very humid climate in another country, etc. I also think it’s important to use common sense while detailing. If your car is caked in a thick layer of mud, I would recommend pre-rinsing first. But it was certainly nice to watch your videos on it and for me to show these tests in my conditions too. I think we essentially came to the same conclusions especially when it comes to the choice of a snow foam. Cheers!

[@PanTheOrganizer]

Coatings can typically resist to chemicals in pH ranges 2-3 all the way to 11-12 depending on the coating. We’d have to do long term testing to see, but I wouldn’t recommend a pH 13 snow foam for every single wash (especially for guys like me who clean their cars twice weekly) as that could potentially harm the coating but more importantly it’s not needed that frequently. For someone who only washes their car one or twice a month, I don’t think such a pre-wash will have a detrimental effect on a good ceramic coating. Many of my viewers, especially in the UK, seem to use Bilt Hamber snow foams all the time on their coated cars and even that doesn’t hurt their coating. I’m sure there’s more to the chemistry than just pH. As there are stripping shampoos that are more powerful to remove waxes at a lower pH, compared to these BH pH 12-13 snow foams.

[@ForensicDetailing]

the lsp Deg issue is another interesring one Matt but it's different to this topic. surfactants are not very effective at removing modern lsp because they work through emulsifying. where a surfactant sits on the on the pH scale is not that important versus the specific properties of the chemical used. the biggest commen degrader of Lsp from a chem pov will be things like caustic soda and phosphates or use of other hydroxides.. some closer to pH neutral products can be more caustic than higher alkaline depending on what's in them. alkalinity alone is not a reliable marker in a products ability to degrade. things like coatings can not really be effected by typical surfactants because of what they are chemically. so a coating tends to get mechanically eroded off the panel more. want safe chemicals that have very strict regulations about what's in them, then buy European. specifically German. Koch are superb on this.

[@goodhomeplan]

From my 30 yrs of experience, the UV is the biggest destroyer of clear coats. Also, the final chemistry result within any cleaner is key. Most soaps contain sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide. Why? Because that is how soap is made. Just because they are in the formulations doesnt mean they will kill the clear coat faster. Many surfactants have these as well. The biggest factor to look for (in my opinion) is does the cleaner etch glass if left to dry. If the answer is yes, then use less often. If the answer is no, then the final chemistry made within the formulation is a safer choice for long term, repeative use. Also, some of the thicker gel soaps have high salt contents. Salt in and of its self can corroad over time. Most soaps dont have high ph. However it is loaded in salt. So...the final chemistry of the final product is really what matters in my experience of 30 yrs.

[@PanTheOrganizer]

Hi everyone! I usually reply to all KZbin comments as you know, but there are so many comments in this video it’s a bit overwhelming so I won’t be able to respond to all of them unfortunately. Thanks for understanding. 👍🏻

[@Primus54]

I think it would have been easier to see the results with a darker colored paint. Further, a wipe of 90%+ isopropyl alcohol with a white paper towel after drying might have shown which was more effective. All in all, I think we’ve reached a point of distinction with minute differences. Thanks, Pan.

[@Cartec09]

A white paper towel will scratch your paint!

[@Primus54]

@@Cartec09 Okay… then a soft, white cotton facecloth. 🙄

[@PanTheOrganizer]

Exactly! A contact wash is always needed after a pre-wash. So I will not drag a paper towel or even a microfiber towel on the paint after just the pre-wash as that could scratch the finish! If people want to do that on their own cars, they’re more than welcome to do their own tests. ;)

[@craigord]

I rarely pre-rinse now (unless the car is exceptionally dirty). I was intrigued by Jon’s video, as well as a few others, so I tried it myself then decided to change my standard wash process 👍🏻

[@FullPcGamer]

What is your standard wash process?

[@craigord]

@@FullPcGamer same as always just without pre-rinsing most of the time. I have variations depending on time and how dirty the car is but the standard for me is; >wheels cleaned >body; pre-wash w/foam over for dwell time > contact wash >protection/dressings >dried What’s your standard?

[@pamposcharalampous]

I would love a good comparison of bilt hamber autofoam vs carpro reset on a really dirty car. Also how ironx, tarx, or even trix deal with plasti dip (parts) on a car. Great video as always!

[@ItsRyan.]

CarPro Lift would be a better comparison surely?

[@adampetten1009]

I use reset only once to twice per year when my ceramic starts to fade, but I pre foam with car pro lift and and I can see dirt running down the side, that or tough mudder on my truck or SxS.

[@pamposcharalampous]

@@ItsRyan. yeah carpro lift sounds like a fair comparison tbh. What i cant seem to find though is enough info about the decontamination products i mentioned above. I have i fiat abarth which has a lot of contaminated areas, but also has some plasti dip parts and stripes on the side. I cant seem to find answers about those products, and im a bit scared to experiment on the car 🤷

[@muckeyn]

Autofoam will beat reset any day as a pre-foam. But that’s not what reset is designed for. Carpro lift is the product to compare, but having all of these products, BH AF is noticeably stronger. As for the plastidip all these products including ironx should be safe. I’m guessing tarx might impact it. Best way is to dip some pieces to test with to be sure.

[@jbrooker78]

I’m currently following your wash process from your, “wash your car like a pro video” from 10 months ago, where you pre rinse with McKee’s 37 N-914 or ONR before you snow foam the vehicle 😊

[@taylor315]

That’s what I do too, like a pre-pre-wash, 1 extra step doesn’t hurt!

[@Vinnie45acp]

Pan, How about switching it up,(from your “wash it like a pro steps”) how about snow foaming on Dry paint let it do it’s job and do it well ( and save on water) then do an ONR/rinseless application wait 1-2 minutes and then go immediately into hand washing. Thoughts on how that would get best results and be most efficient and effective?

[@James-yd8tg]

Pan has guided me though my journey of proper car care since I bought my i8 1 year ago. It's been immensely helpful thank you!

[@Dominari66]

Definitely pre rinse if you plan on using wash mit with the snow foam to get most gunk of the paint. But I've always pre rinsed, just part of pots and pans now.

[@KenVic02]

Between yours and John's videos, I'm sold on skipping the pre-rinse for a daily driver that's not too caked up. However, I usually wash my car after work, and it's piping hot from the drive in the central Florida sun. I don't have enough time in my shaded driveway for the car to cool, so I give it a pre-rinse mostly to cool the paint down. Otherwise, the snow foam will start drying before a proper dwell time. That said, if my car was already in the shade (like the garage) and not hot to the touch, I will definitely test skipping the pre-rinse when I'm able. Mobile detailers have it even tougher washing in direct sun without much choice. I wonder what order they prefer. Thanks for the post!

[@ddautodetailing]

To me it looked as though the pre rinse door was a little cleaner. Glad to see another video on this. I may give it a try during one of my washes to see it in person. Thank's for sharing 👍

[@marshprofessionaldetailing9794]

Although it may be a reflection, the lower door molding on the non pre-rinse door still seems dirty, whereas the pre-rinse door seems just as clean on the paint and cleaner on the plastic molding. Plastic being more porous, I think there's an argument for both sides here. I would imagine using a PH neutral foam could impact the results as well. Great experiment Pan! Thanks for the investigative content.

[@Viriatvs]

I also noticed that, however, we must consider that the dirt on those plastics comes directly from the front tire. Consequently, the back ones will get less dirt as they are further away from the tire. Also, I don't think those were the main focus of the test, cause Pan seems to focus on the painted surfaces.

[@Jayg80]

I don’t pressure wash before snow foam anymore (since John’s video) however, will I cool the panels of a black car in summer before snow foam with a pressure wash first, you bet I will! My point is, we pressure wash first depending on circumstances. Thanks for a great video Pan, love your content 👌🏼

[@AMP8424]

John who?

[@Jayg80]

@@AMP8424 his channel is Forensic Detailing. Lots of great content

[@AskUncleLuc]

Hi Pan. I’ve found that pre-rinsing my cars (4x white) gave a much better result than foaming first. I also found that this method allows you to do the contact wash without needing to rinse the foam off (rightly or wrongly). It’s more efficient.

[@markymark903]

Like an earlier commentor said... pre-rinsing takes very little time. I see no reason to stop pre-rinsing.

[@Twizz1979]

Yes! Thanks! I'm sold. I've been trying this for about a month now and I love skipping the pre rinsing step. I do feel the surface is slightly cleaner and maybe more lubricated. but if it's for nothing else the time and water savings is awesome.

[@dillanmistry]

I’m am tremendously glad you made this video, snow foaming or even using an apc pre wash first makes the most sense ever; pre-rinsing rubs the dirt on the paint, while using snow foam first makes best use of snow foam, thanks Pan

[@haynknight2002]

Unfortunately I don't have a controlled environment. I live in Hawaii so we have summer and cooler summer. Pre-rinse is a must to cool down the car unless you start VERY early in the morning or are fortunate enough to have a shaded area.

[@coreymerritt7742]

I would prefer to pre rinse just to get larger material off before snow foam thanks pan

[@Focal-zd1mm]

Not doing prerinsing helps to reduce water consumption in reality. But it is also true that only foaming the surface as start do not cleans the panels that well.

[@Cliff1029]

I was spraying ONR before the initial rinse as lube. Am going to give this a go and see how it works

[@DougFresh]

This sounds silly , but I went to carwash school... we learned to put only the presoak on, and always spray it on from the bottom up, the strong Ph can cause "cleaner" streaks running down the car... super vids man!!

[@PanTheOrganizer]

Thanks Dougie! How did you discover my channel by the way? Welcome to my channel. You discovered one of the biggest car detailing channels on KZbin as we surpassed 760,000 subscribers and are getting close to 100 million views! I have been detailing for 25 years and I love to share my knowledge and passion with my viewers. You found the right channel to help you learn everything about detailing.

[@DougFresh]

@@PanTheOrganizer I found it using KZbin search.

[@orwaw1001]

Thanks a lot Pan Every time i think about anything about how to clean the car properly I found the answer in your channel No matter what I think about

[@PanTheOrganizer]

Thanks for the positive feedback Orwa! How did you discover my channel? Welcome to my channel. You discovered one of the biggest car detailing channels on KZbin as we surpassed 890,000 subscribers and we have over 115 million views! I have been detailing for 26 years and I love to share my knowledge and passion with my viewers. You found the right channel to help you learn everything about detailing.

[@orwaw1001]

⁠@@PanTheOrganizer hi Pan thanks for your feedback A few months ago I bought a new car that i really like and started washing at home I started searching youtube for detailing videos and found your great channel Since am addicted to it You’re doing an amazing serious job Simply the best on the field 👍🙏

[@davidgeroge9330]

I split the difference, prerinse the bottom half and foam from top down doing the wheels while I wait for foam to work.

[@DITCH1296]

For me personally, I would never Not “Pre-Rinse” before doing anything ! You can clearly see the results from it, plus what harm can it do if used as part of a safe routine!

[@26DX047]

Clearly see the results? both Pan's and Jon's test results showed no pre-rinse probably got better results, so their tests results were the same but you see something else? As for what harm in pre-rinsing, if no pre-rinsing is just as good or in some cases better why bother? surely using less water, less electric, less wear and tear on your pressure washer, saving time etc etc again why bother. I've always pre-rinsed by the way, we've all got our own routines but if something gets the same or better results for doing less I'll give it a go.

[@DITCH1296]

@@26DX047 We all choose to do what we can to hopefully what we individually see as a “Safe Method” in washing & drying our vehicles, & that is definitely the way forward to go! As for results, I can see there’s very little difference if any, although that said The vehicle was Not heavily soiled, just very mild surface dirt! During our winter period our country uses a lot of Rock salt, and that without question requires more attention to remove, I would still Pre-Jet wash regardless of light or especially the removal of heavily soiled debris, and in regards to the wear & tear on my jet wash, well that’s what I bought it for, & and the extra amount of water used during the Pre-rinse application is minimal! Ive just had my 22 vehicle Ceramic treated by a Gyeon experts, & part of there advised Wash plan included Pre-jet Wash before snowfoam, so I think for me having spent all the time effort and money on treating my vehicle, is to continue in that manner!

[@26DX047]

@@DITCH1296 You don’t quite understand do you lol. Watch Pan’s and Jon’s videos again while putting your perceptions to one side, both mention if vehicle is heavily soiled pre jetwash would be best, that’s common sense. Re. salt again you don’t quite understand, people are finding out now that pre rinsing first probably means the snowfoam is diluted and/or cannot cling as well to the car which means it’s less affective. Yes there is very little difference both Jon and Pan have found in their tests snowfoam on a dry car gets better results, again yes the difference in minimal, but surely if getting better results while using less water, less time, less electric, less hours on jetwash etc it’s a no brainer, why use more water, more electric, more etc etc for slightly worse results. And re. getting a Gyeon Pro to coat your car, you pay someone to coat your car but you’re too stubborn or stupid to understand that slightly tweaking your wash routine (doing and using less) could help keep your vehicle in its best possible shape. Stubborn, stupid or both lol.

[@videomaniac108]

With the SiC ceramic coating on my car, the pre rinse takes off nearly all the dirt. I don't pressure rinse the car's surfaces during the pre rinse; I sheet a stream of low-velocity high volume water so as to not drive dirt particles into the clear coat with great force, said stream being nearly parallel with the surface. From there I lay a blanket of highly concentrated foam and let it dwell for several minutes, rinse it and then proceed with the contact wash. In the contact wash, I do add a little rinse less wash concentrate to the washing solution to increase the lubricity. This has worked very well for me in the 4½ years that I've had my glossy black car, that I don't think has suffered any clear coat damage due to my washing and drying.

[@nomad90125]

Ive been pre rinsing all my life pan, my late father taught me to rinse with a shower hose before you start washing. 👍

[@79blustone]

Times have changed, better methods have been tried and tested. Its no harm to try a new way of thinking. You won't damage anything. I always snowfoam on dry paint then blast off the dirt. You'll 100% reduce paint swirls and therfore reduce the amount of cutting your clear coat back by polishing. You have infinite amount of soap and only a finite amount of clear coat. Always work with the lesser evil 👍

[@Ozzcaddy]

Thanks Pan for the comparison video. To me there is no right or wrong way to pre-rinse. The steps that I use which I picked up from yourself are: 1. Apply APC on a dry panel, let it dwell for a few minutes. 2. Apply snow foam and let dwell. 3. Rinse off. Some people will leave the snow foam on and use that as part of the contact wash. As I have to wash my car in the street which has plenty of trees, I don't use that method in case a leaf blows onto the foam and I don't see it before manually washing that part, and end up scratching the paint, even though ceramic coated.

[@01123581321341]

Both tests worked really well - but not pre rinsing has saved time and water. Both valuable commodities for the world especially for detailing businesses. Superb video 👌

[@avyfa1946]

Really good and interesting video. Another thing to consider: when you pre-rinse the car and apply your chemicals, you are basically diluting them even more. So, if the car is extremely dirty (like covered in chunks of dirt), hot or cold, I lightly pre-rinse it: Hot car - just to cool it down, cold car - to heat it up, covered in chunks of dirt - just to remove most of the dirt. If it's just dusty, or a little dirty (like in the video), I start with snow foam straight away.

[@eriknoguez128]

I live in a pretty dusty dry/arid climate in a rural area so both of my vehicles get ‘dirty’ hours after washing. One of vehicles is ceramic coated, 6 month into a ‘5 year’ coating and it’s holding up well. I think I’ll start adopting practice of not doing a pre-rinse and see my results on it. Other vehicle only has a sealant that I applied myself. I like to pre-rinse mainly because my pressure washer is a craftsman 1900 psi @ 1.2 gpm, so pretty low flow rate and for the sealant coated car I worry i won’t get enough grime/debris off with standalone snow foam. Thank you for doing this video!

[@joeslatt]

I saw John's video and started applying foam dry, and it seemed to work just as well (if not better) on 5 cars - two black, one maroon, 2 silver/gray. They are all ceramic coated, but some are getting due for a refresh. I think the better way to think about it is to work backwards...Do you do a final detail spray around the car (even better a ceramic booster)?...And/or do you hand wash? Do you snow foam/rinse/snow foam/hand wash? Or snow foam/hand wash? Or just snow foam and no hand wash? I have found that if you're a clean car freak (you know you are), then it's never that dirty, so my method is Dry foam, rinse, INSPECT, either hand wash or not (usually it's every other wash), and then finish with a ceramic detail spray. I can always judge how well I did based on how clean the yellow towels are during the detail spray step. And with this method, I almost never have a dirty towel. On the dirty towel method (working backwards), the two cars that are never garaged need the hand wash step every time I wash them (every 2 weeks). The garaged cars don't need a hand wash at all, so I do the hand wash only every other wash (2 weeks no, 4 weeks yes). I think that you should always finish with a detailing spray, for the cleanest car and the best shine, so if you are doing that, it's easy to tell what "cheats" you can get away with earlier in the process. Glad you did this video, Pan!

[@yosnielectrico]

i respect all opinions , i prefer to pre-rinse always always.

[@tomplatz4318]

I pre pressure wash before foaming, but this changes my mind. Can do the wheel wells and such while rinsing off the foam residue. Great video, short and sweet. Thanks

[@samvela4913]

great video...I snow foam first, let it sit for 5 min, then rinse. 2nd snow foam I then wipe with micro fiber mitt, then rinse. IMHO

[@cheferman65]

I agree with common sense. I can see saving 5 minutes as a professional detailer doing multiple vehicles by not pre-rinsing. For me, time is alloted per job and the cost is accounted for. My clients expect a certain result with the least potential of surface marring. It's a reflection of my methods, quality products and equipment. Great topic and points of discussion. Thank you Pan! Awesome as always.

[@warrenalbert7922]

I use Griots Surface foam dry per the instructions. I typically pre-rinsed now that its crazy pollen season in Georgia. Once pollen season passes I go back to applying the foam to a dry surface. As always, great video Pan!

[@MarioDallaRiva]

Bravo, Pan! 👏🏻 I guess, from a water conservation perspective, no pre-rinse would be a consideration. Great video. As always.

[@79blustone]

Yeah that's another plus point. I've been doing this method for years and its the best way, it isn't diluting the SF when it contacts the wet surface. When it hit the dry dirt its still 5% PIR dilution 👍

[@doneB830]

2/3 of the world is covered in water, and all water naturally recycles.

[@Bloodstryke]

I believe you would have had more clear results by using a more PH neutral foam soap which is what most people at home use. The Bilt Hamber Touchless is so strong it cleaned both panels by chemical strength alone which is why you had results that were not significantly different IMO.

[@79blustone]

Its a sugar based cleaner with not nasty chemicals in it. Its a reasonably high PH to take care of a very dirty or stubborn dirt films. You can adjust the PIR ratio to 2% in the summer and back up to 4% in the winter. I adda bit of Bilt Hamber Surfex HD into the bottle when its really dirty for exceptional results. I guess it depends on your climate etc. I've got no problem against a PH neutral for the right conditions 👍

[@JD-lz4ct]

How about testing it with a snow foam more people use. A lesser quality in other words. See if results are the same.

[@danielbogdanbonta9501]

I use to wash a car like this, preparing it for a compound, polish and coating. A citrus diluted 1-10, from a pump sprayer, let it do its magic for 5minutes then rinse A foam wash, and using the foam to further lubricate the surface, i do the 2 bucket wash, leaving the paint super clean after rinsing it. And of course i follow up with the chemical and mechanical decontamination if needed. This way, the first citrus wash helps to get the majority of the dirt of so the next foam wash with the wash mitt doesn't scratch the surface even more. You should try it ☺️. Thanks Pan and keep up the good work!

[@kayakkevin]

This test is on a vehicle with an Adams graphene coating though right? Certainly that would affect the test vs on just a thin wax as most people would be doing. As always, helpful info though.

[@KiranPatel-fk1pg]

Most people have coatings not wax these days as coatings don't need to be applied so regularly and so much better in everyway

[@KiranPatel-fk1pg]

@@KilaByte33 Most people who are into detailing coat their car. Those that don't are typically the ones who just buy stuff from local stores.

[@PanTheOrganizer]

Most of my viewers have ceramic coated vehicles. This was actually the most appropriate test for the majority of my audience. But you can always do these tests at home on your own vehicle. No need to wait for KZbinrs to do tests. I used to donall sorts of testing way before I even started my channel. It’s my curious nature.

[@tonydipasquale2568]

Hello Pan, new subscriber I love your channel. I own a 2018 Explorer Platnium. My question is should I oil spray protection before detailing and ceramic treatment or after? Thank you

[@yowtesla2464]

Hard to tell from the video. They do look very close. I go back to Yvan Lacroix often saying pressure washing dirt without lubrication can harm your finish. So for me, I would try to avoid pressure washing without lubrication first, unless of course as you said, there is just so much that the foam cannon won't penetrate. Another great video Pan.

[@tdevans11]

That's what I was thinking too.

[@peterjurenovskis5933]

I noticed that Phil (Miranda Detail) uses APC as a ‘pre-rinse’ to assist in removing road grime before snow foam. Thoughts?

[@PanTheOrganizer]

Phil specified that you wouldn’t do thag before every regular wash. You would do that once in a while to get to heavy grime or as he does his customers’ vehicles it’s a good way to start with a fresh surface and perhaps help break down older waxes and sealants before moving on to his other detailing steps. I wouldn’t use an APC pre-clean every time I wash my personal car though, as I wash it twice weekly and it’s not needed. So it depends when you use the APC as a pre-treat. There are certainly times where it’s suited to do it. As Phil does.

[@dichicodetails4994]

I sometimes pre rinse, other times not, and other times pre soak with ONR; the last one was because of a PAN vid. All work well if you are using the right products; right products thatnks to the many PAN vids. Keep up the great work PAN!

[@dinto_louis]

Pan, as you have mentioned cleaning achieved with & without the pre - rinse are very close.. But my concern is - which would be less damaging to the paint/coating..? pre - rinse & then the snow form method or the snow form directly on dry surface..? Would the pre - rinse drive the dirt into the paint more when compared to using the snow foam on the dry surface..?

[@TheCeki1982]

There is no reason to suspect, to suppose, that without rinsing dirt will adhere or cause damage. Damage is mainly caused by mechanical washing, i.e. with contact with the paint or coating. And not by just a snow foam. The focus is on efficiency. So whether it is really necessary to rinse the vehicle first. I just shared a link above.

[@DrinkMoxiee]

The dirt only drives into the paint if you pressure wash extremely close to the paint, if you're at a safe distance when pressure washing then theres no need to worry.

[@Dmaelstrom]

Thanks for the vid. If the result is so comparable, it suggests that it works better without rinsing as when rinsing with a power washer already removes dirt. Following this, I will not pre rinse unless I have a lot of muck.

[@jacknash3365]

Good video, I’m glad you did this test to match with Johns, just gives me even more confidence in the outcome. One thing which may have slightly given an unfair advantage to the pre rinse stage, was you spent longer and was more direct with the lance(edit lance) position, rinsing the one side. But it didn’t seem to affect the test.

[@adriansayer5269]

Since Jon did his video I’ve stopped pre - rinsing. Rarely get heavy mud deposits in Uk. Really happy with the switch. Good to see your test Pan! Thanks

[@PanTheOrganizer]

Thanks Adrian!

[@nachomandetailingservices1057]

I use a waterless wash now prior to contact wash basically my philosophy on this thing is if I’m pre-washing with water then I’m still pushing the contaminants around the vehicle or into other areas that I may not be able to get to as easily so by me doing a pre-wash with a solution like a waterless wash that has the ability to encapsulate the dirt when I do Pre-raise it before I wash I’m encapsulating the dirt and contaminants and just not slinging them all over the car.

[@PeteGrk-eb5ck]

Great video Pan, I pre rinse , then spray snow foam and lastly I do the two buckets method. I alway use pre rinse just to be one the safe side.

[@j-sonS]

i started using rinseless in a foam cannon to be my prewash at the standard dilution. once i pre rinsed with the 256 to 1 ratio....i then foam cannoned which now doesnt leave water spots since the rinseless pre rinse tends to knock down water spots.

[@celestino4088]

You read my mind, I came across John's video earlier this week and wrote out the question on this topic to send to you. You beat me to it, lol. I saw the logic that foam on dry made sense not only for the dilution aspect but as in that video, the layer of water that will prevent the direct contact of the foam to the panel. In your result, watching on screen, I was putting my attention to the image of the background reflecting in the panel and to me, the dry shows to project a better image but yes ever so slight. Great comparison and yes using common sense. The question i had prepared was in two part. So you wonderfully answered the first, the second is if there is a true difference between a hose foam canon vs a pressure washer foam canon since both are available on the market. Thx Pan.

[@JOSEPHwHAN]

This is the video with the golden answer. Amazing work. Thanks Pan!

[@PanTheOrganizer]

Thanks Joseph!

[@Pittsburgh-412]

Imo, when snowfoam is applied to a dry vehicle, it seams like it sits on the panels longer than if the vehicle was wet already. That makes it better at cleaning

[@1804Mak]

pretty much the same results but you save water by skipping the pre-rinse. Clear winner here

[@hondacar]

Because my car tends to gather garage dust and some road grime, for me, pre-washing with water wouldn't benefit me. My car has the Professional CarPro ceramic coating and even though the Bilt Hamber products are great, I wouldn't use their snow foam( or any other brand) which has a high pH level on a regular basis.

[@TheTuri08]

Its always been dry paint for me. Wheels first, then degreaser (3-5min) dwell, foaming with foam cannon over the degreaser (5min) dwell, rinse off thoroughly and over with the touch wash, rinse thoroughly, apply your choice of protection on all the wheels and paint (some protectants might be applied before the drying process and then dry after). Not only have I always thought pre rinse is less time effective but also very much unnecessary when you have all these types of chemicals doing the work for you and lets be honest its always more satisfying seeing chemicals actually going to work rather than rinsing off the dirt with water

[@eurosonly]

I'd say yes because the water helps breakdown bigger pieces of dirt before you go in with the foam. I also think that foam should only be used on larger and taller vehicles to make your job easier. It's a convenience item of anything. If you're gonna use soap with two buckets and do it by hand with a wash cloth, no foamis needed. Unless you plan on using foam as the soap. Doing both is overkill I think.

[@donmckinney4091]

I always pre-rinse my Telluride even if it's light dirt!

[@edwardt8194]

I would like to believe that pre-rinsing introduces greater chances for scratches since plain water has less lubricity than snowfoam. What i mean is the water would drag debris on the surface w/o proper lubrication.

[@yarinsheiman7789]

Definitely going to always snow foam from now on!

[@flytyingguy1]

I always Pre rinse my car before I do any sort of washing or snow foam . If the car is dirty which living in the south with no snows& garage kept I’ll snow foam after I rinsed & wash the snow foam with the mitt. Then blow dry. Car is Graphene coated.

[@bigguwapbrixks187]

I’m loving the last 2 steps this and snow foam thanks pan we need more of these tests thanks

[@Lndmk227]

@2:31 - Calling it now. No, or only slight, difference between the two methods. Edit - Yup! The only time I think pre-rinsing is important is if you, like you said, do a lot of mudding and/or dirty, off-road, or bad weather stuff. Save the water otherwise.

[@nomad509]

I would think a pre-rinse becomes way more important when a pressure washer is not in the equation. Since I rarely get true foam from a cannon I have a tendency to presoak the car with ONR before rinsing just to knock down the surface before a mechanical wash. It most likely was a carry over concept before pressure washing.

[@gmans7859]

Really depends on how dirty the vehicle is. I think pre- rinse is best practice and the minimal standing water diluting the first foam is also minimal. I would just mix the pre-foam slightly sturdy to counteract. My son and I foam the car a second time so there is soap already on the car as we begin the contact wash. Lubrication, Lubrication, Lubrication. Excited for tomorrow. Sunday Wash Day. Received the new Microfiber Madness Wash Mitt . 😁

[@alisolkanu4763]

This saves me Eight quarters at the self car wash. Thanks Pan. Now i can focus on spending that extra time to foam the car soaking wet

[@PanTheOrganizer]

Thanks for watching Alisol! How did you discover my channel by the way? Welcome to my channel. You discovered one of the biggest car detailing channels on KZbin as we surpassed 840,000 subscribers and 105 million views! I have been detailing for 25 years and I love to share my knowledge and passion with my viewers. You found the right channel to help you learn everything about detailing.

[@404notfound.....]

I see an ever so slightly difference, however the front does project a more clearer image. I have applied snowfoam both ways, but after seeing this I'm going to go back to the dry method 1st. Thanks pan 👍

[@clarkkent459]

Not all of us can use a garage for car washing. I pre spray my car down to help bring the vehicle surface temperature down from being in the sun. I don't always get a chance to wash before sunset, and black gets Hot fast. But still a good video.

[@guyharrell5898]

Seems it would be best to spray foam on dry, let dwell, pressure wash / spray off dirt ( that now has a slippery substance to slide on) thus less damage to clear coat, then spray foam on and do the 2 bucket hand wash. I always wondered how it could be good to blast off mud and rocks that would be scratching the paint.....

[@bullrage74]

Thank you for doing this. Hopefully people will save water and time by cutting out the pre-rinse stage when it isn't necessary.

[@PanTheOrganizer]

Thanks for watching Steven!

[@toddcox]

To me the scenarios for no prerinse vs. prerinse are as follows. No prerinse: 1. Minor traffic film/car cleaned weekly or every two weeks and properly maintained. 2. Environmentally controlled wash such as inside a garage. 3. Location under various water restrictions or water scarcity. Prerinse: 1. Caked on Mud or thick dirt and debris. 2. Weekend warrior or DIYer who lives in hot climate that does not have a garage. Some people have to wash their car in the heat and don't have a lot of options such as shade, and time of day to work around the heat. Those folks have to be smart, such as prerinsing to cool the car down and control evaporation while the product dwells on the surface. Some of us have to juggle heat, evaporation, and lubricity in order to get the most out of a particular product. It's the trade off for not having to deal with nearly as much road salt as Canadians. 🙂

[@Jimbo5063]

Great video, Pan. I almost never pre-rinse before applying the snow foam. The only time I pre-rinse is when there are bird droppings or something caked on the vehicle.

[@johng241]

They are very close but I do see a difference (better) with the pre rinse. If you look at the molding seam on the non-pre rinse, there are some mineral/dirt deposits still evident. Also, in response to below, if it were true that the pre rinse prevents "surfactant" to be drawn in, then why is it so hard to tell the difference if it did not work?

[@LuisAvila-mi7xe]

Hello Pan, from Panama city Panama. My common sense is telling me that pre wash is better to do it without pre rinsing. Because the reason why we doing pre wash is to prepare the surface for the contact wash. The pre wash soap is liquid already and it will lubricate and drag the dirt, then with the rinse of the foam will help the dirt to fall off. And then the surface is ready for contact wash without that much of dirt. If you pre rinse the car before the foam, the water will dilute more the foam without letting the pre wash soap to penetrate on the surface and drag the dirt. Also remember you are using a pressure washer to rinse at the end of the 5 minutes for the soap to do its job.

[@LuisAvila-mi7xe]

Also I forgot. A friend of mine once told me water does not lubricate alone. When using soap is to lubricate for the dirt does not mini scratch the paint.

[@79blustone]

Adam's advanced graphene is definitely doing its job well. I love Bilt Hamber as I've mentioned before. A very good tip- reduce your Touchless to 4% PIR then add around 50-75 ml of Bilt Hamber Surfex HD into your MJJC then top it up to 1ltr mark. This turns the cleaning power up to number 11. Also if your car is ceramic coated you'll find its just starts beading and sheeting like you just applied it for some reason (its just a super strong surfactant APC) but for that demonstration on that amount of dirt would be ideal. I've used the exact same equipment as you Pan today. 😊

[@TRK-up2zw]

I can almost buy into what Yvan at DIY Detail says, which is that a high pressure pre-wash rinse can potentially blow particles not only off the paint but also into it, causing small scratchess. What do you think?

[@frankpeutz9106]

I think it also depends on whether you have a "greasy" dirty surface or just a dusty dirty surface (eg sand). In the case of greasy soiling, it is my experience that applying the snowfoam directly is more effective .... Also if you want to see if it is really clean, in the future it might be better to carefully rub the cleaned part with a white viscose cloth and see if there is still residue present. Nevertheless, I find these kinds of discussions and tests much more interesting than discussing another new product. Because honestly when I have something that satisfies I'm not going to change quickly (know what you have). Experience is key, keep it up! Frank (EU)

[@TheSkeptic_1]

This was a nice comparison to see. Most of us don't have the luxury of doing our wash in an environment out of the way of direct sunlight, so I think that's a factor, too. This does motivate me to skip a quick rinse before just blasting it with foam, letting it sit, and rinsing it off. One thing I struggle with is the amount of product that fits in the foam cannon reservoir; I don't have enough to spray the car with foam twice. It always seemed to me the best way to avoid scratches was lubricity. So if I could foam/rinse/foam/wash (with a bucket that also has soap and a grit guard), my contact wash risks damaging the paint less. Do better-known foam cannons like the MTM tend to more efficiently preserve the amount of product used?

[@Bloodstryke]

In my experience the cheaper foam cannons and better ones use about the same amount of product. I use MJJC Pro v2

[@David-Godin]

Griot's Garage has one where you put a restrictor in the solution tube that makes it so you can use straight soap. It works well

[@robertrobertson5120]

Very interesting demo. I usually prerinse before contact washing, however, I will try without and see for myself. Thanks again Pan for your demonstration! 👍

[@Straga-qf1pn]

Just saw the forensic detailing video about this yesterday and planned on asking what's your opinion about it in your next video. Instead, your next video is exactly that. Small world :D

[@Pedroluvslupe]

Not stupid at all but if you skip it it saves time if your a car detailer

[@airborneSGT]

With pollen season in full swing I pre rinse to get it off prior to snow foam 🤷‍♂️

[@PanTheOrganizer]

Yes. Again, the use of common sense is always important while detailing.

[@HiAleks]

pre rinsing or not, its almost the same results, think that the type of shampoo it's the most important part.

[@JohnSmith-dd1vl]

Pan, as usual great video. Technical note: "SPEED X5000%" is kind of tautology. There are two logical ways of showing increased speed. One is to show multiply factor ("x5 speed") other is to show speed in percentage ("speed 500%"). Mixing both is rather not too common and "SPEED X5000%" can be hardly understand.

[@vexeloquence2547]

Hey Pan, there was a time where someone told you to use a lubricant before rinsing the car cause the power of the water would just scratch the paint if not using it, like with a diluted ONR all over the car before rinsing or snow foaming the car? Is it not necessary anymore?

[@royweiss75]

I personally use a 16:1 diluted ONR before the pre rinse and let it dwell for like a minute, before I rinse as I see noticeable difference in its ability to remove the dirt and help the snow foam. I also notice substantially less dirt during the contact wash phase on the wash mitt

[@iangeorge6409]

Do you spray the diluted ONR on the panels or do a regular ONR wash? Interested.

[@vexeloquence2547]

@@iangeorge6409 diluted ONR direct on the panel so it add lubricant before putting pressure water on the dirt, wich i think can damage or swirl the paint

[@royweiss75]

@@iangeorge6409 direct onto panels and wait for 1-2 minutes

[@XxdjforrestxX]

My idea is spraying water doesn’t provide enough lubrication to keep the the dirt from micro scratching

[@jamesk3565]

love the comparison, using common sense for a pre rinse is definitely needed

[@PanTheOrganizer]

Exactly!

[@vogash]

Imho while pre rinsing dry car, some dirty can scratch a paint, while shampoo on dry car can soften a dirt and give some kind of lubricant, but may be I am wrong. Good test will be to do polish for a car and make 3 washes on very dirty car, half car to wash with rinsing before and other side with foams before and then investigate a paint

[@burtgummerVerified]

How about using a white glove test afterwards?

[@PanTheOrganizer]

No. That could scratch the finish. You always need to do a contact wash after a pre-wash.

[@rbbcpa]

I use the waterless rinse product you referenced in your updated car wash video then I apply the snow foam. Seems to prep the surface quite nicely.

[@krishikkeshnayakxmarvellou9739]

Pan is 60 ml Adams advanced graphene coating is enough to coat a full size suv

[@PanTheOrganizer]

Yes if you’re talking about coating just the paint.

[@krishikkeshnayakxmarvellou9739]

@@PanTheOrganizer pan including glass areas, it has 8 glass area

[@APPLEtv4VIERACAST]

I would give the edge to the pre-rinsed side.. maybe in my head…but I would still pre-rinse, for that 1 or 2 gallons of water extra…products are otherwise expensive enough, so that little bit of water extra, I would still spend.

[@andrewdalbenas1941]

Where does lubrication play a role in this? Is there enough lubrication in water alone (pre-rinse) to knock off the loose dirt or is it safer for your paint to snow foam first?

[@rozpanthir]

Hi Pan and thank you for the video. Perhaps if you snow foam first the soap gets soaked up by the dirt encapsulating it thus power washing makes it slide off easier. This is as apposed to prerinsing first which could possible cause microscopic damage to the clear coat as the dirt is struck by the jet of the power washer sort propelling it on to the vehicle prior to pushing it off. My thoughts. Best

[@PanTheOrganizer]

Pre-rinsing first potentially prevents the shampoo from perfectly clinging to the surface to do its emulsifying action. Less efficient fighting and encapsulating dirt. That’s the theory.

[@fcolliopoulos]

Great video. Can you try doing a different video with a standard snow foam for example gsf. That built hanger one has a higher ph and better cleaning ability.

[@ObsessedGarage]

GSF will do basically nothing.

[@fcolliopoulos]

Basically what I figured

[@barrybij8079]

Splitting hairs... i learned that that soap you use works pretty well

[@preteshpatel959]

I suppose if you don't do pre rinse first do a double pre wash so you get twice the pressure power hitting the panel with chemical. Doing a pre rinse first does take some dirt off though. I think many will always come to a contact wash after a pre snow.

[@amill1563]

Hi Pan, Scotty Kilmer (also on youtube) says he uses exterior car polish on the interior windshield to keep it from fogging up. Perhaps you can make a video out of this idea.

[@PanTheOrganizer]

Scotty has a great channel but he’s a mechanic, not a detailer. ;)

[@amill1563]

@@PanTheOrganizer True