Is Shadowdark really as good as they say?

[@theDMLair]

THE SECRET ART OF GAME MASTERY | Get 250 pages of game master advice, knowledge, and wisdom to elevate your role-playing game! thedmlair.com/collections/the-secret-art-of-game-mastery MY SHADOWDARK ADVENTURES www.patreon.com/thedmlair

[@BuggyDemon]

I have a question. What do I do about a player who hasn't played D&D before and is constantly on edge? They also play like they don't want to play. For example whenever I try to push a quest that everyone else agrees to they are like "No I don't trust this" or "I don't want to". I also can't just kick them out because we don't have a replacement person and we are already low on players. What should I do?

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Ran Shadowdark at PAX Unplugged last week. 12 rooms, two combats, 2 hours. What blast!

[@Cyryvy]

Hi Professor!

[@TonyCrenshawsLatte]

The best thing about Shadowdark for me is that it actively encourages my players' survival instincts. They are very aware that things can go sideways fast, so they get cautious and creative to make their way through the adventure, and it keeps me on my toes because their creative solutions are often really awesome. It's engaging both for my players and me as their DM.

[@Subject_Keter]

All it is a percieved mood shift and players acting. The game doesnt summon pinkertons to enforce such things and the rules can be transplated. 😂

[@tomambrosio5527]

@@TonyCrenshawsLatte i reward my players indirectly for running away. No leroy jenkins at my table.

[@benjaminmckay6983]

@@Subject_Keter EVERYBODY HOP IN, JOIN ME AS I HOMEBREW 5TH EDITION D&D INTO AN EARLY 20TH CENTUARY PARANORMAL HORROR INVESTIGATIVE GAME BECAUSE 5TH EDITION D&D IS THE BESTEST THING EVER MADE, AND IT'S PERFECTLY DESIGNED FOR EVERYTHING I JUST NEED TO HACK THE ENTIRE SYSTEM FIRST BUT OTHERWISE IT'S THE PERFECT MATCH. I FULLY INTEND TO TRANSPLANT ALL THESE DOPE RULES FROM THIS WEIRD BOOK CALLED "CALL OF CTHULHU" (IT SAYS TTRPG ON THE COVER WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?!?!).

[@jimprindle6662]

“Hey Luke, you don’t suck.” :)

[@theDMLair]

Thank you!

[@EricBrockway]

I haven't played Shadowdark, but from what you're saying it really reminds me of playing the old BECM D&D from the 80's. Sounds cool. Good video.

[@wozar7461]

It is very similar to that. You could easily call Shadowdark the child of Moldvay BX and 5e.

[@simontmn]

It's a bit less deadly than BECMI but does feel fairly similar. The spellcasting system is very different from any version of D&D - and very cool - though.

[@defnlife1683]

@@simontmn yeah the magic reminds me more of DCC.

[@DmDungeonMastery]

Shadowdark is amazing! I want to slowly wean my players off of 5e and move to shadowdark, the combat is one of my favorite things, and i love the dark gitty feel of the game. Primo, plus Kelsy is great and id much rather give her support rather than wizards of the coast.

[@theDMLair]

Amen to all of that.

[@brentnorton1602]

Since the OGL scandal we have been delving into the Shadowdark and we have not looked back. I can run my TSR modules, Pathfinder APs, and Warhammer fantasy adventures using one book. We have a great time using it in our sand and sandals Clash of Titans themed game. Can’t say enough about how Kelsey is a great person.

[@HorizonOfHope]

Shadowdark is incredibly fun, our group plays basically almost entirely using the in-built random generators, and I am the GM. I have one or two modules ready to go but only if the random one is a bit awkward to implement.

[@FixDnD]

It seams, Shadowdark presents the unknown horror that lurked beyond the surface and DnD 5e has a more supernatural heroic vibe to it where the PCs do not really have to care about consequences or failure, but more about „what else can I do on my turn that’s crazy awesome unbelievable 🎉“

[@kumithebear]

Nice to see you rep Shadowdark Luke. I've been running it since the OGL, and will keep coming back for more SD content. Thanks man.

[@TroyKnoell]

I play BECMI with my daughter whose not interested in the complexities of 5e. There are things about 5e that she likes, so we can incorporate those into BECMI. It sounds like Shadowdark has some interesting things that we could implement too. One of the nice things about all these OSR games is that there are people, like yourself, who are making adventures for them. And these adventures can easily be played with ones OSR ruleset of choice.

[@theDMLair]

Yes, it would be super easy for me to take a Shadwodark adventure I made and run it in a different system, especially if it was a rules light one.

[@timcox3856]

Shadowdark is awesome! Like others here have said, it's replaced D&D at our table. So much fun packed into one little book!

[@jennf1881]

I want to second how great Shadowdark is for newbies. My non-gamer partner finally relented and agreed to play a one shot. She really enjoyed it.

[@wozar7461]

This was a brilliant video and it summarized a lot of good points of Shadowdark (and other OSR games). The only thing I have to add is a definition of OSR and further reading. The Old School Renaissance/Revival (OSR) is a play style movement that draws inspiration from how D&D was played in the 70s and early 80s. It refers both to the play style but also the movement around the play style. I'll mention in general no one has found a set in stone definition of it. For further reading you should take a look at "Principia Apocrypha" by Ben Milton (Questing Beast), Steven Lumpkin, and David Perry and "Quick Primer for Old School Gaming" (revised in 2024) by Matt Finch.

[@Subject_Keter]

The best TTRPG is the one you make yourself after cutting and stitching the stuff you like. 😂

[@nykolostark]

@@Subject_Keter That's what I'm doing! I use 5e as a base, cut out all the bad parts, and add in rules from previous editions, as well as rules from other games that I like. About to playtest soon. 👌

[@WeissM89]

Amen brother.

[@zednumar6917]

All hail Shadowdark! All hail Our Lady of Darkness and the Queen of Shadows, Kelsey Dionne!

[@sirguy6678]

Excellent video! The shelves of many a bankrupt game store are lined with the “best and most fun TTRPGs” I would love to see a list of role playing games (all genres) of old TTRPGs from the last 40 years…from Tunnels & Trolls to Shadow Dark a history of role playing games

[@Subject_Keter]

I feel like a actual dive into "cool rules to steal tm" is better then "people dont like dm fiat... ao buy my game full of dm fiat" 😂

[@Slo-Mode]

I really like how the classes feel unique and distinct in shadow dark. Each party member has a thing with out it feeling like everyone else can do that thing too.

[@EvilLPS]

So good to see you talking about SD! If there is more content like this I would love too see it!

[@TheVTTDM]

ShadowDark is great! I ran Ravenloft per Mike Shea's blueprint and only one character from the STARTING party survived... And that was due to a natural 20. AND, of ALL the PCs that were in the game, that same character was the only survivor! BTW, I know Luke doesn't like roll20 but someone there made a serviceable ShadowDark character sheet and it works pretty well. If you've got the PDF of the rulebook it's pretty easy to copy and paste monster descriptions into the NPC sheet.

[@theDMLair]

Great to hear!

[@simontmn]

The loading of monsters from PDF & characters from the online generator into the Roll20 char sheet is very cool, yup!

[@lore_shards]

What class was the surviving character? Were they smart or lucky?

[@Hellvector]

Hey Luke, you don’t suck! Glad to see you sharing the love of the style of play that Shadowdark encourages and so readily facilitates!

[@FrostSpike]

Shadowdark essentially takes you back to D&D BX days but with some familiar D&D 5e d20 mechanics. It relies heavily on DM rulings and interpretations in any given situation, rather than hard & fast rules (although the expansions cover some of this). It requires a high degree of trust between players and the DM as it's the sort of game that tests player ability rather than character ability in problem solving situations. Character differentiation within classes is mostly up to the players' roleplaying rather than anything mechanical - just like it used to be. I've run a couple of short, 10-12 session "campaigns" in Shadowdark and it plays fine, but nothing I couldn't have done in other, similarly lightweight, systems. If you drop out the graphics and convert the Shadowdark QuickStart Player rules to D&D 5e letter-size two-column format, it comes in to a mere 16 pages. 19:40 As Luke points out the Shadowdark spellcasting mechanics can be be quite brutal and sucks for low-level casters. We adopted a houserule that the first time a character casts on a day they get a free cast and start rolling on their second cast.

[@Prep4SurvivingMe]

Hey Luke, you dont suck! I have been reading ShadowDark and plan to run my next adventure with it 😁 thanks for all your talky talky!

[@michaelpinkston2602]

Love it! This might be a great ttrpg to introduce new people into the hobby.

[@tomambrosio5527]

The answer is yes. We have abandoned dungeons and dragons and got exclusively to shadowdark!

[@jasonhawkins6888]

Same here. D&D is old and busted.

[@pistol975]

Excellent video! I am so happy to see you delve into Shadowdark!!

[@JMtheGM]

15:18 In Shadowdark you can die... Yeah, don't get over-attached to your character. Last GrandCon, I ran a gauntlet: 0-level Shadowdark characters trying to make a name for themselves. The *core concept* is character death: the survivors are the heroes. The rule: There is a camp of 24 characters. Each player picks one to adventure with. If the character dies, they pick another from the camp pile that shows up in the following round (having gotten antsy and left the camp to join the team!). The group of players loses if the entire camp dies before they reach the treasure. Everyone had a blast; death toll varied from group to group.

[@BrianKoppers]

I also like that the gm screen is the same digest size as the core book when folded up.

[@francescocasto6672]

First: u surely don't suck! 😊 Second: switched to shadowdark the second I read the free pdf. Never switched back. Third: Shadowdark + Prof.DM's UDT is just the perfect match. Best way to play it i.m.o. 👍🏻

[@theDMLair]

100% agree. i ran Shadowdark at Gamehole Con using UDT and it was perfect.

[@shialar]

LUKE!! You are amazing! Def don't suck. Thanks for the overview and your thoughts on Shadowdark. I've been eyeing it for a few months now, but wasn't sure whether to try it out. I think I will now.

[@rodrigopinheiro3968]

Wow! Welcome to the OSR, Luke! You're gonna like it here.

[@yellowbellytabletop]

Best advocacy video for OSR that I've ever seen. Good job.

[@sharipaynter5075]

You are fun and energetic and definitely do not suck. I enjoyed your frenetic review of Shadowdark. May all your hits be crits!

[@mtgemperor]

Shadowdark has overtaken 5e as my most requested system to use. I positively LOVE Shadowdark! One notable thing that I enjoy the most of Shadowdark is the elegant simplicity of the system; homebrewing is fast and easy. It is such a blast. Alternatively, there is a special add-on known as SoloDark, allowing people to play solo; no DM at all.

[@jonhaynie1987]

I'm going to finish my current campaign with 5e because that's how we started and a couple character arcs are actually tied to the class mechanics at this point. After that, I'm pretty sure I'm switching exclusively to Shadowdark.

[@simontmn]

That's what I did. Finished 5e Stonehell after 7 years back in August, then went to Shadowdark.

[@josephwilliams5732]

Shadow darks death clock made our session memorable 😂

[@d20play]

I fell in love with ShadowDark as soon as I saw it! So fun, so fast.

[@Grumpypapa-DM7]

I've incorporated the spell critical failure chart into my D & D game...players love it...probably could add the spell mechanic too.

[@oxcereal]

You don't suck Luke. You do solid work💯

[@sleepinggiant4062]

Might be a fun change of pace. My players really like investing a lot in one character and taking them to high level.

[@metatechie7487]

Luke, you don't suck(!!!!). But seriously, I'm really inspired by your advice and cats.

[@faerylnhiikira1053]

"Hey Luke, you don't suck." 🙃

[@viniciusandradesilva7723]

My osr homebrew is pretty similar to shadowdark, its a great system for beginners and experienced players, its great.

[@ninjaaron]

I'm the person at the table who wants to follow the rules! But I agree that rules-light is better because they are easier to follow.

[@iangodfrey6310]

Hey Luke! You don't suck! Mean that in the nicest possible way.

[@FixDnD]

Hey Luke You are fine as you are Don‘t worry too much about what the community has to say about you as a person You are you The internet is „non-obligatory“

[@deltapi8859]

I took me a year (at least... let's say 2 years) to learn to GM Cyberpunk RED. Another year to find a stable group for it. TTRPGs are a time investment, claiming otherwise just does a disservice to newcomers. For me Mothership is what Shadowdark is to you. One weekend to read the whole rules, what a difference. It took me 2 Months to understand Cyberpunk RED combat rules. And yeah, there are people who are faster at grasping the rules than me, but I find them over a long time to have played essential rules differently from how they were intended by the game creators. That is something I don't like to experience. Especially because balancing is done with the rules how they were intended. I always say "Every rule is a problem if it creates ten new questions to how to resolve a situation".

[@theDMLair]

I played Mothership at Gen Con this year. It was super easy to pick up (with some GM help as I was a player), and the character sheet walked me through character creation, only needing to refer to the book about twice. It was refreshing to say the least. I loved it.

[@deltapi8859]

@@theDMLair "the character sheet walked me through character creation" to me this is like the pinnacle of PnP design. I mean PnP is now a cherished and well understood hobby. Things like this should be the norm by now. I also like how you have ALL the weapons with stats and art on a A5 double page. As well as armor. Instantly fell in love with it.

[@Scott-sk1rb]

Hey Luke, you don't suck! But also, I'm a Shadowdark fan, great review!

[@bonzwah1]

Honestly, i dont even like the torchlight mechanics and the deadly atmosphere. But i still play shadowrun because its my favorite “rules lite” dnd 5e alternative. Its so recognizably 5e for my players, but it removes so much bloat. I literally use shadowrun for heroic campaigns with zero traditional dungeon crawling and it works great.

[@dukejaywalker5858]

Shadowdark sounds excellent... except for the spellcasting rules. I haven't played the game, but I have a feeling that I wouldn't enjoy being a player or DMing for players with unlimited spells / losing the spell altogether. That mechanic doesn't sit right with me... I really like the concept of "spells as resources" and the game of managing those resources effectively. But I'd be willing to give it a try!

[@chaddemink7731]

Luke, you still don't suck! Excellent video.

[@enzobambino]

Shadowdark is awesome! And, Luke, you don’t suck!

[@wapper7777]

There are free character sheet generators for dnd 5E lol. I use them to make combat npc’s and human enemies that feel super unique

[@israelmorales4249]

You re great Luke, you and your team. Great video! ...the UDT is Ultimte Dungeon Terrain not Universal....i think

[@theDMLair]

Oh, yeah, could be. My bad. :D

[@alexabel8010]

The one thing that really turns me off about the dungeon crawling thing is that the "dungeon" seems to always be a _crypt_ in need of a light source... That sort of thing makes my head hurt. I don't think I've played a dungeon crawl in an actual dungeon that was actually interesting. I would really like to. Shadowdark sounds like something really fun to try. So far, I've been having a lot of fun with your friend's system though. (DC20)

[@Galefrie-v4x]

I do love Shadowdark but I honestly hate that people think it's a good system for new GMs Yes, it's a rules light game and it comes with tons of really good tools for a GM to use. However, it doesn't actually teach you how to use any of those tools. It doesn't tell you how to design an adventure. It expects prior knowledge and for a brand new game master would need something else to supplement it - I guess something like your Secret Art Of Game Mastery book!

[@wookieburger]

Hey Luke, you don't suck!

[@BuggyDemon]

I have a question. What do I do about a player who hasn't played D&D before and is constantly on edge? They also play like they don't want to play. For example whenever I try to push a quest that everyone else agrees to they are like "No I don't trust this" or "I don't want to". I also can't just kick them out because we don't have a replacement person and we are already low on players. What should I do?

[@alexabel8010]

Hey Luke. You don't suck!

[@JeffWittyArt]

DCC does player death in a super fun way!

[@simontmn]

I was sceptical until my best friend told me I'd love it, and I ran it. Fantastic game, 21 sessions in, no desire to go back to 5e.

[@jeffschroeds1067]

You don’t suck, and are my favorite KZbin content creator.👍👍

[@theDMLair]

Thank you, Jeff!!!

[@jierdareisa4313]

I love ALL the DM Lair videos!!!! ❤

[@SerifSansSerif]

No. It's D&D 5e made even simpler. The reason it gets classed as OSR is because it's been simplified so that you have even less abilities (but it retains all other 5e trappings including advatnage/disadvantage) and it's written in a way that encourages the DM to be brutal. You can play 5e as shadowdark, and you can play shadowdark to be as light and breezy as 5e. The reason it won so many awards and has so much attention is because it's popular to shit on 5e while cloning 5e and this hits that sweet spot between 1e/osr and 5e.

[@RIVERSRPGChannel]

It is a fun game I like no dark vision

[@Subject_Keter]

You know you can take out dark vision right? 😂

[@DmDungeonMastery]

​@@Subject_Keter Why are you hating so much lol go play 5e

[@Filix-wo7cx]

some of this is pretty good idea... but i rather just implement these rules into my D&D worlds, and call it a "homebrew" system... usually i get more players in that way, than looking for entirely different player groups.

[@atlasdm]

No, it's not as good as they say. BUT it's good enough and the creator is pretty cool which counts for a lot.

[@engteach1680]

You don't suck. In fact, I think I would enjoy your games.

[@princesskanuta3870]

Very good video!

[@theDMLair]

Thank you! :D

[@akogias]

I've played lots of indie and osr games, and I've played shadowdark. It's only "as good as they say" to those that come to it from DnD; otherwise, it's not really better than most simple game systems out there. It seems to me that it's become more prominent because of the hype around it and the charm of its creator.

[@michaelmuirhead910]

Sounds like a lot of fun, it’s one of my target games for the next garycon.

[@PuppetMaster1791]

Hey Luke, you don't suck and bacon is amazing

[@theDMLair]

Thank you! Bacon is the best.

[@victorbazan2676]

Very rad, thanks for this!

[@davidmc8478]

The only thing I would disagree with is the need for additional books. You will find you need several of the cursed scrolls as the core rulebook is a bit thin on content.

[@spke9663]

I really like Shadowdark and have had a blast with it, but if I had a criticism it’s that it doesn’t work as well as a long form campaign in my experience. The gritty, stressful feel will begin to fatigue people after awhile. Players that are more into character development often don’t get the same satisfaction they do in meatier options. Character death can be interesting but when it becomes too pervasive it can lead to a lack of engagement in developing long term character goals or growth. There are so many great rpg’s out there I think it’s more important to find a game that suits what the players are wanting to get out of the game. For some Shadowdark is exactly what they are looking for, other groups it may not be the best fit. Personally, I prefer it as something from a one shot to a short campaign.

[@chevaliermalfet4538]

Great review! Aristotle said that virtue lies between the excess and the deficiency. Shadow Dark falls too far into the deficiency for my liking. The lack of interesting player characters and “quick deadly” combat make it seem more like a board game. With no real investment in a character, players are really just are moving tokens on a game board. That takes all the intensity out of combat beyond winning or losing like a card game. It diminishes tactics beyond the set up as well as encouraging risk aversion. Not for me but I can see where it could be a fun party game.

[@theDMLair]

I can see what you're saying. In my experience, a character is as interesting as the player makes them, regardless of simplicity or complexity of rules/character options. I've seen plenty of characters in heavy systems like D&D and Pathfinder 2 that were just meh.

[@chevaliermalfet4538]

@ I defer to your experience but from a design perspective effort and investment are likely to correlate. That’s not saying the character can’t be interesting… only that if replacing a character requires little effort and they aren’t likely to survive than it’s far more likely characters get treated like token on a game board. That lends itself to style that’s not my cup of tea.

[@kidthegeek]

My single biggest issue right now is how to turn them into campaigns. It feels more like characters are more likely to die so it makes it tougher to build a long campaign

[@theDMLair]

I don't run campaigns that are character dependent. I never have. That can lead to plot armor, not wanting to play if X player can't make a session, and low stakes (because death is usually off the table).

[@dylanhyatt5705]

You can run campaigns - for example you might have a kingdom with various towns besieged by goblins - the campaign is about liberating the kingdom - if a PC dies, another can be generated for the current campaign lvl in a jiffy (for nuance, maybe a 1 or 2 lvls lower).

[@FinK-gz9xv]

Gary Gygax used to just start his players at level 3 to avoid them dying too easily.

[@unicornchowder]

good review

[@randallcarter3353]

Where on your Pareon page is the Shadowdark material? i am %25 Tier member and can only find the kinks for monthly Lair drops.

[@theDMLair]

They are in the Google Drive that I share with $25 patrons. If you don't have it, message me on Patreon.

[@randallcarter3353]

@@theDMLair Ah - I got it. Was looking for a link on Patreon...didn;t remember about the Google Drive link.

[@michaelpinkston2602]

Need more bacon in your videos.

[@theDMLair]

I know... I know...

[@keithrosa8016]

luke, have you ever played 1e AD&D? sounds like you may like

[@ceranko]

Shadowdark has some great products. The cursed scroll mags are great!.

[@Loko-wl7fo]

Hey Luke!, you DON'T suck!!!

[@Subject_Keter]

But he sucks so much 😂 Avatar of suck

[@theDMLair]

Happy to be that avatar. It's amazing how I can suck so much and yet be so successful. (Imagine what my achievements might be if I sucked just a little less.)

[@cerrelle]

@@theDMLair don't sell yourself short, you are mediocre + at best. =)

[@SteveSwannJr]

Like many others, I ditched the world's most popular role-playing game. I went to basic fantasy. Doesn't get cheaper. Checks all my boxes. I'm sure Shadow dark is great, I just don't want to put the money into it

[@fabiowagner4252]

It really is an amazing game!

[@greggp4840]

Unfortunately point 2 by itself was immediately enough to turn me away. But I'm glad others are enjoying!

[@5olaris88]

With the exception of budget I hard disagree. I have played big box games ran with all the "pros" you have listed and shadowdark games with all of the mind numbing "cons". This is a video describing a (subjectively) good table dynamic VS a nauseating painful dynamic.

[@Subject_Keter]

I know most stuff doesnt survive contact with players but all of his positives are "ya nah, irrelevant data points pretending to be facts and mainly due to a change of focus" Like how people say terraria is better at building but never build anything in minecraft. Or dark souls is so good but constantly spam I frame dodges 😂

[@Frederic_S]

Luke does not suck at all!

[@trouqe]

That is a nice shirt

[@JAH711]

Hey Luke, you’re pretty cool

[@Koinezar]

Question - will Shadowdark be a good option if my players really don't like dark and gritty dungeon crawls?

[@Doodle1776]

Shadow Dark, from my understanding, is very OSR-like. Which is funny that many 5e players discovered that more rules and more choices make the game less interesting and less enjoyable. I love rules light to rules moderate games. Despite the hype and claims 5e is not rules light and it leans towards rules heavy. More so with all of the subclasses and races. I swapped to Castles and Crusades for our main game and we also play Whitebox, and now Cairn. All OSR or OSR adjacent games.

[@theDMLair]

Yeah, D&D 5e is very much a rules heavy game IMO.

[@pccleric]

Shadowdark? Isn't that the game that Bunny Daniel constantly sells for?

[@robinblaine5385]

Team "don't suck"

[@mifigor1935]

Well after hearing your description I don't think it's a system for me. I don't like systems that force you into being creative and I like PCs having defined roles in the party and while I do enjoy those moments when I find an unconventional solution from time to time I like to be able to look at my sheet and think what do I have that can help solve the problem. Also with those amazing moments done by creative players also come a lot of moments where session stops for over 30 minutes cause players can't decide what to do.

[@theDMLair]

I get what you're saying...but don't most game sessions regardless of system have countless moments where indecisive players stop the game's progress?

[@andykaufman7620]

The character sheet does not determine what you can and cannot do. I creatively cast a fireball from my nose as a Warrior. The character sheet doe snot say I can do that GM, but I am creative and I am not limited by my character sheet.

[@bamboozledgreatcrowd8982]

Yup!

[@mkklassicmk3895]

The whole game isn't roll playing. You do not have to engage in any sort of roleplay to play these games. It is vastly more satisfying if you do but it's not actually necessary.

[@Subject_Keter]

"This TTRPG is good because it has very little rules and alot of DM Fiat!" "Isnt that why people hate DnD and other ones?" 😂

[@SerifSansSerif]

Agreed....

[@mavfan21]

My one ding is the classes and progression are boring and bland. I wish it had more options for making your PC stand out. That's OSR for you, but I had hoped Shadowdark would fill the huge hole that's there for a rules light game with interesting PC builds. She took a lot of ideas from Index Card RPG when making this game and Milestone Paths/Abilities are things I wish she'd put into SD. I hate the concept that "all Fighters/Thieves/etc" are basically the same mechanically.

[@jasonlehman4591]

hey luke, you don't suck

[@theDMLair]

Thank you!