Is the Criminal Justice System Racist? A Soho Forum Debate

[@glensven]

Such a good debate, but only 8K views. While, CNN with 2 idiots yelling at each other for 5 mins, providing no data gets millions of views.

[@MeanBeanComedy]

It's up to 11!

[@o.b.9781]

You hear actual facts here. Independent media is so much better. Wish people weren't so brainwashed. CNN and Fox News are both bullshit.

[@smkngunzzz1843]

You Cowards also need to be educated in knowing your arguments against Racism are nothing new. You all today are no different than those who during Slavery use to argue in favor of it. Those who would argue that Slavery wasn’t immoral and that Slaves were treated great. Get it through your thick Numbskulls that you’re not standing on some moral high ground today just because we’re in modern times. For those people back then they considered themselves and their arguments to be modern and moral. Until it’s clear to All (Especially the victims of Racism) that Racist Policies and Practices no longer exist your arguments amount to no more than some Racist from 200yrs ago trying to Rationalize and Minimize Slavery.

[@FattedHard]

It seems to me that Radley's argument focused mainly on race while Rafael's argument brought more information that suggests that it's way more than just race at play. Did anyone else come to this conclusion as well, or is it just me?

[@LtDeadeye]

I agree. One pattern I've discovered though with most debates on this topic is that statistics seem to be hand waved on both sides rather that directly knocked down.

[@hanamlchl]

Radley's argument for black juror dismissal alone is fraudulent - *because juror dismissal is never JUST about race.* It's about things like education, ability to be unbiased and set aside prejudices. An acceptance of due process, and innocence until proven guilty. Things which the black community has *demonstrably* proven unable or unwilling to do as of this last month. *So of course black jurors get dismissed more often, but not because of their race.*

[@MeanBeanComedy]

Yeah, that's usually the case. I see more claims of racism now that are just pointing at a disparity and blaming it all on racism instead of really delving into what might be going on

[@LtDeadeye]

@@hanamlchl I'd like to add that, unless I'm mistaken, the attorneys involved have a mutually hostile relationship and both participate in the selection process. That said, I'd like to see the traffic stop disparities regarding the change from daytime to night time statistics be addressed.

[@LtDeadeye]

That Dude I haven’t read the study but I wonder if they break it down to how the probable cause is gained. Pacing a car will only allow the officer to see the back of the headrests inside the vehicle. Using stationary radar and lidar places the officer potentially in front of the violator but it would be typically at such as distance as to not be conducive to identifying the race of the driver until he’s already been flagged down. Do they distinguish between violators who receive the citation and those who don’t? It is possible to talk oneself into a ticket after all.

[@lynnsmith399]

Cops in unions are more aggressive. They’re protected. There are ALSO studies that show that. Unions are most prevalent in large urban cities, which also tend to have higher populations of nonwhites. Correlation DOES NOT equal causation.

[@FedUpSouthernGirl]

I reside in a right to wk state and yet my biggest gripe is that those who only do the least amt of wk necessary are still not fired so long as they fit a certain demographic. Sorry if it sounds racist but in my line of wk, which is at the state level, those who ive witnessed do the least amt necessary to meet state criteria (whose standards are quite low) also fit in a certain demographic. Anecdotal, yes. Point being that even in nonunion states, govt standards will always be lower than that of private biz. And, I can only imagine what a unionized state's standards are if employees can get away with *only* doing the absolute botrom of the barrel, *least* amt of wk possible while still having no thrrat of losing their job/pension. .

[@samson136]

There are probably a million reasons behind the unequal outcome. This is probably only one of them. But a major cause

[@lynnsmith399]

Samson Samsonson Which is why I can’t stress the last line enough.

[@bonsummers2657]

But sometimes correlation does show causation,… on other things at least.

[@ariellawaltman6693]

Nothing to do with racism

[@DetectiveStablerSVU]

The worst part about these types of things is that no matter whether somebody gets their argument objectively invalidated and destroyed they will go on believing the same thing, writing books about it, and spreading the misinformation with an uninformed community patting their backs and lining their pockets. At least those who watch can be influenced.

[@alexanderx33]

Weirdly I don't think they actually controdicted each other, at least not directly. They are mostly talking about different situations and different specifics.

[@johnnybgoode2484]

So many people act as though there was not a crime problem in the inner cities before the '94 crime bill. If that's the case, from where did the political will derive that led to the bill, in the first place?

[@duzzitmatter8679]

Ask Joe Biden - he sponsored the bill.

[@WillStrong7]

I don't think anyone claims there wasn't a crime problem, but that doesn't necessarily mean the bill made it better or the bill wasn't an overreaction.

[@Dbulkss]

Ask the SLAVE PARTY DEMOCRATS ABOUT THERE CITIES.

[@bostoncommonterry]

Walls Defend Conquest for White Supremacy

[@ayandas874]

What created the inner city violence problem, other than the drug trade? Which organisation is responsible for starting this drug trade in USA?

[@hankmoody5514]

The word "Racism" & "Racist" hold no meaning anymore.

[@lanceknightmare]

If you were more self aware you would realize your reaction is manufactured for political reasons. Of course, the term intellectual has been bastardized by the Republican Party to fit their narrative. I am not specifically talking about Donald J. Trump. He is merely using tactics developed in the 1,800's or before. A fraction of conservatives have always been anti-intellectual and this is purely for political reasons.

[@soulfuzz368]

Analogy Accepted the word bias or preference works great.

[@danielferris152]

@@lanceknightmare We need a common language, with common definitions, in order to communicate. A personal attack (accusing him of basically being brainwashed), without a reasoned response, is the height of being anti-intellectual.

[@justiceforjoggers2897]

@@lanceknightmare Copy pasta makes no sense here.

[@lanceknightmare]

@@danielferris152 You do not even understand the context of what you said in your post. How could you understand what I said in mine? Common definitions are part of the problem. Everything has to be understood by the common. Thoughts have to be based around a curtain type of thinking. When I say certain type of thinking, I am talking about specific parts of the brain being used to communicate. You say my post is not reasoned therefore it is not intellectual. What you are really saying is my post is not intellectual because I do not think like you. You have an aversion to insults clearly.

[@Muonium1]

I'm so goddamn sick of the word racism I literally don't even care anymore.

[@bennieblanks5129]

So true. The racism fatigue is real.

[@theodenednew8874]

That’s racist

[@lanceknightmare]

If you were more self aware you would realize your reaction is manufactured for political reasons. Of course, the term intellectual has been bastardized by the Republican Party to fit their narrative. I am not specifically talking about Donald J. Trump. He is merely using tactics developed in the 1,800's or before. A fraction of conservatives have always been anti-intellectual and this is purely for political reasons.

[@Muonium1]

@@lanceknightmare If you were more self-aware you'd realize how pompous and utterly imbecilic your comment is.

[@dollcrazy300]

You must be white.

[@jeffersonianideal]

Reduce the number of laws police officers are obliged to enforce (e.g., victimless crime statutes), and the number of conflicts between police and citizens of all races will likely decrease.

[@karozans]

I agree. I think that both of these guys lost sight of the true issue. It's not an issue of making things safer or racism. It's about freedom and Liberty. Even if "stop and frisk" reduces crime, it also reduces freedom and Liberty and that is not a valid tradeoff. "I'd rather have dangerous freedom, than peaceful slavery."

[@jeffersonianideal]

@@karozans Yes. It's the 5,000 pound ball and chain in the room that too often goes unnoticed and unaddressed.

[@hanamlchl]

Seattle just completed an experiment in "reduction of police interactions". It did not go well.

[@Bkintariah]

Very dumb recommendations. As if human beings are not prone to manufacture and deliver crimes. You people keep coming up with this drunken ideas its stupid. The white guy in the debate suffers from extreme white guilt and black horrification.

[@jeffersonianideal]

@@Bkintariah Really? What percentage of arrests and incarcerations are a result of victimless crimes, a.k.a, crimes against the State?

[@thomasheideman6103]

RE: 2:30, I'm lilly-white and I've been pulled over more than 30 times in my lifetime. I've been cited unfairly for speeding, I've been pulled over and issued citations for doing just 6 miles over the speed limit, I once had a cop ask me to step out of the car, push me against the hood, and cuff me for complaining about him shining a light in my eyes (he was testing me for drunk driving... I hadn't had a drop). I don't think blacks are lying by saying that they're treated harshly by police... but we also know that black Americans do offend more frequently and I realize it sucks to be a law-abiding black man who gets lumped in with bad actors... but I think if we're to have "honest" conversations about race... that we can simply overlook the enormous imbalance in rates of offense. Also, we'd do well to stop assuming that white Americans never get treated unfairly by police.

[@admthrawnuru]

Out of curiosity, do you know why you are pulled over so much? Do you drive fast, drive a fancy car, filed a complaint against the police awhile back and got your name on a list, etc?

[@j00bar]

Balko notes this if you continue to listen. He notes that many of the studies he cites control for rate of criminality, but he also invokes the studies around colorism, that the darker a black person, the worse their treatment in the criminal justice system - that is, between two given black people, the one with the darker skin is statistically significantly more likely to receive harsher treatment along the various axes he tracks.

[@hanamlchl]

@@j00bar He claims the studies control for rate of criminality, but he himself does not. He simply cherry picks the ones that conform to his narrative.

[@sebrofk_]

As a black man I have never thought *white Americans never get treated unfairly by the police* but I would like to say this. If you were a black man statistically you were more likely to be shot in those 30 times you were stopped rather than just harassed. I would also like to say that bringing up *arrest rates* does not support your argument as being *arrested* for something is miles different from being *convicted of a crime* and I’d also like to point out that people love to bring up *some* numbers and statistics that may ring true but I never see all the facts. Like how 1 out of every 10 who are on death row are actually innocent which is a horrifying number. Or how the innocence project estimated around 5% of prisoners are actually innocent of their crimes and were put their purely off of police misconduct or false statements. People also love to say that “this was too long ago for this to be about race” the civil rights act was pass in 1964. My English teacher when I was still in school was still a Highschool student by then, my grandmother whose still alive and young was alive to see that pass. Those people that put those racist polices in place and fought to keep them there are still alive and well. If Martin Luther King Jr wasn’t assassinated like all our leaders. He’d be 7 years younger than Betty White.

[@hanamlchl]

@@sebrofk_ So when they build a police patrol algorithm based exclusively on 911 call density and that winds up targeting black communities, is that racist? If the system targets bad behavior and the black community finds itself being targeted disproportionately then that's on you.

[@danielferris152]

A no point did Balko give an example of HOW the system was inherently racist. That is, what law, procedure, idea, or structure creates these disparate outcomes. Neither did he describe a system that would resist such outcomes. I was disappointed that the ideas were never discussed, and the questions were never asked.

[@dahnke_liminal]

Daniel Ferris He did though, he characterized it as a residual effect from Jim Crow policy. I wish they would have went into this more though as well.

[@xxcrysad3000xx]

@George Ryan If the only evidence for systemic racism you are willing to accept takes the form of "We are passing this Bill or Policy with the express purpose of disproportionately targeting and harming black people", you're never going to find it. People are rarely stupid enough to state their true intentions honestly in public.

[@homewall744]

My take is Rafael won the argument, but I agree with Radley's changes that reduce police enforcement for non-violent issues. And get rid of the "exact precedence" criteria for qualified immunity. And get rid of plea bargaining that puts the accused in a predicament of choosing to defend himself or risk worse outcomes. And pay jurors a reasonably good wage commensurate with their duty to make judgement of a criminal proceeding....slavery isn't the way to create a just jury pool, while all others in court are paid well.

[@javiervillanueva4152]

Rafael seemed more knowledgeable about the subject matter and was able to refute all the points put forward by his opponent referring to vast amounts of relevant evidence. Radley kept repeating his points, even those which had been proven false. I understand that admitting you are wrong takes great intellectual courage, but not doing it damages your reputation even more.

[@smkngunzzz1843]

Right, let’s all agree with him so we can ignore racism and just go on like there’s no problem at all. Let’s just all believe that when cops kill blacks they always deserve it. Let’s just all be a Stupid Ass Coward like you who wants to ignore Racism because he was raised as a POS.

[@hanamlchl]

Balko's argument about policing high-crime neighborhoods and the police's poor success rate in black neighborhoods conveniently ignores the fact that the black community refuses to work with the police. "Snitches get stitches". Straw man more, so pathetic.

[@brianmclaughlin7104]

Spend one day in a criminal defense office and see what goes on for yourself.

[@EVERYTHINGDEAD2223]

What goes on

[@SlyNine]

The white guy just repeated his claim over and over again again backed it up with anecdote and some correlating statics. Correlation does not mean causation. Instead of claiming there is evidence. Talk about the evidence, the methods, the limits. The problem is your don't control for area, crime scene characteristics, what they were doing when they got arrested for drugs, behavior, income ect. You can't cite a bunch of studies that only control for a handful of variables. If only you would hold these studies to the same standard of evidence you hold IQ studies that show differences between races.

[@nineten9011]

So you subscribe to that whole race and IQ thing? Despite variables like socioeconomic status and historical poverty and malnourishment of Africans being ignored. You sure do play a lot of mental gymnastics, the studies he cited are all researched yet Rafael response is to keep introducing new variables that are untested for and keeps coming up with reasons why all those studies are wrong and he’s somehow wrong.

[@treyparlin8179]

@@nineten9011 because Variables and Context debunk most statistics.

[@nineten9011]

@@treyparlin8179 unless tested they don’t, you don’t just bring in a random variable out of nowhere. And somehow use it to discredit established research

[@JaffaGaffa]

Im A Swede, and new to beeing a Police officer. It has been A three year Process all in all, with training and on the job education etc. During that process I had an extra job working at A prison. Its not like in the US, much more humane and orderly. Mostly... Well. Anyway, the majority of the prisoners in Sweden are from forigen countris or their parents are. Its stunning! They make up about 20% pf ppl or so in total, Yet they make out of 60% of the prison population. Any American familiar with that number/situation?

[@bonsummers2657]

Thanks for sharing.

[@justiceforjoggers2897]

Walla Walla State Penitentiary became a blood bath after a psychologist applied the Norwegian model on how the prisoners would be treated and reformed

[@darwinkilledgod]

@@justiceforjoggers2897 Do you have a citation or something for that? I'd love to look into it.

[@ariellawaltman6693]

Why is that

[@aedressler]

During assimilation, one is bound to make a mistake legally. lf they're 2nd-3rd generation and still end up in jail, it's because your govt recognizes race is real and it wants to destroy your culture all the while calling you "racist" for noticing patterns. Have you ever heard of Barbara Spectre in Sweden?

[@HitchensRAZ0R]

If we judged systems strictly by the disparity of their outcomes, we could conclude that the justice system is plagued with "systemic misandry" since most arrests and convictions overwhelmingly occur with men over women (plus men are sentenced to 60% longer punishments than women for similar crimes). But we all know that would be fallacious and we all know there is a lot more to it (like men commit far more crimes, so more men in prisons means the justice system is doing it's job). So why are we dropping our logic and jumping on the "systemic racism" bandwagon when it's whole case rests entirely on disparity of outcomes? EDIT: Yes, I know that family courts are grossly unfair toward fathers; that police are more likely to shoot and/or beat up male suspects (cuz they're more likely to fight/hurt/kill the cops); and I'm aware that men have a harder time making a case for DV toward abusive female spouses --- nevertheless, the narrative of "systemic misandry" will never be taken seriously, esp. nowhere near as serious society treats "systemic racism" despite the narrative using the same faulty "disparity of outcome" logic + including all those real problems in the justice system I already mentioned.

[@robertblackshear8963]

I agree. In my opion the outcome of any action defines its hidden intention.

[@granudisimo]

" (cuz they're more likely to fight/hurt/kill the cops)" That's an overall cultural perception because Americans watch too many movies, and cops get those biases constantly reinforced by the pervasive "warrior training" and by the rest of society because, and I cannot stress this enough, Americans watch too many movies. Your lack of deepness when looking at the details of how society works, denotes that Hitchen's RAZOR's edge is a little bit dull on this topic (Maybe because you're talking strictly on the single criteria of outcome disparities, now that I think about it).

[@HitchensRAZ0R]

@@granudisimo strictly talking about the fallacious single criteria of outcome disparities was precisely what I was doing. I didn't want to go on a side tangent and make a long comment even longer by deep diving into all the angels why cops do what they do

[@Mr.Witness]

And yet they are the least violent police in the world

[@smkngunzzz1843]

Like Balko said the system today was established during the Jim Crow era. Anybody that doesn’t understand that era needs an education and shouldn’t be commenting. Anyone who doesn’t understand that what we have today are remnants of that old system which don’t just magically disappear. They’ll never disappear as long there are Cowards afraid to admit they still exist. Many of you are Cowards or just plain Ignorant about the History and how the past always plays a part in the present and future.

[@modelmark]

I think the argument: I have so many studies that say X. Dozens and dozens of studies show I am right. Democracy entering the truth finding bussiness, a bad thing.

[@onceagain6184]

This guy needs to come out of those books and talk to people in the communities that he is talking about!

[@riggermortisfpv526]

I guess Obama was oppressed with no equal opportunity, so was General Colin Powell , William H. Hastie, Thurgood Marshall, Wade H. McCree, Spottswood W. Robinson III, A. Leon Higginbotham Jr., Damon Keith, Theodore McMillian, Amalya Lyle Kearse, Joseph W. Hatchett, J. Jerome Farris, Nathaniel R. Jones, Cecil F. Poole, Harry T. Edwards, Lawrence W. Pierce, Clarence Thomas, Timothy K. Lewis, Judith W. Rogers, Carl E. Stewart, Theodore McKee, R. Guy Cole Jr., Eric L. Clay, Charles R. Wilson, Ann Claire Williams, Johnnie B. Rawlinson, Roger Gregory, Barrington D. Parker Jr., Lavenski Smith, Allyson Kay Duncan, Janice Rogers Brown, Jerome Holmes, Andre M. Davis, Joseph A. Greenaway Jr., O. Rogeriee Thompson, James A. Wynn Jr., Raymond Lohier, James E. Graves Jr., Bernice B. Donald, Paul J. Watford, and Robert L. Wilkins.....the last 39 names are or were black Federal Judges. So my answer to the headline question posed is a resounding NO.

[@iironhide6209]

Just because you can list some Afr Amer who made it doesnt mean that most Afr Amer dont face problems others dont on the basis of race

[@riggermortisfpv526]

@@iironhide6209 Some ? I listed 39 going all the way back to the 30's. It demonstrates equality of opportunity. It also proves there have been black people making policy for decades.

[@watchthis12day]

Another illogical rant. How many "black" people are in america again?

[@Gamerad360]

@@riggermortisfpv526 This does not prove racism, this proves classism.

[@riggermortisfpv526]

@@Gamerad360 I wasn't trying to prove racism. Your statement is hilarious. Honestly funny, but Im willing to bet you aren't even slightly embarrassed because I know you don't know the backgrounds of even half of the people I posted nor did you look them up.....classism indeed ROTFL.

[@wajnerw]

Great debate! Thanks! WP guy started strong but melted down under the other guy's arguments. Rafael was amazing. A fantastic debater.

[@BLUELOVEFOREVER1]

The race baiter is doing a horrible job, he should go take lessons from someone!

[@SlyNine]

The evidence of sexism against men is far far greater than racial differences.

[@SlyNine]

@Menelaus, The Red Haired King in treatment. Ie, conscription, sentencing, forcing men to switch seats in a plane if sat next to a minor, being shot by the police, education, Etc

[@maloneaqua]

I don't think either argument is that racism is the only difference, or even the "worst" difference.

[@patrickday4206]

@@maloneaqua the reality is most cops aren't that great of people most judges got there extorting people for profit and it's far easier to pull over a poor black person and find cocaine and get a raise then pulling the rich white kid that has cocaine. It's all about easy low hanging fruit for people that don't care about people other then themselves. To be a judge or a cop you should have to actually live where you arrest people or sentence them they would be on their best behavior if that was the case! They would actually face people and their families that they wronged !

[@brendanakers7294]

Not racist it’s more classist there is some racial profiling in police but not in criminal justice .

[@Gamerad360]

Exactly, basically what he's saying a higher percentage of black people are poor, and poor people get treated like shit. That's true, but it doesn't prove racism, just classism. To prove racism, you would compare rich white people to rich black people.

[@chopinbloc]

Like he said, it produces racist outcomes. There are several related but independent feedback loops that tend to reinforce the conditions that keep black people poor.

[@nexus00]

@@chopinbloc democrats created these welfare programs that keep majority of black people poor, they created redlining, not supporting school choice and support school unions that are keeping bad teachers in majority black public schools. Also, they broke down the black family. But, you still can overcome it all by going to school, working full time and stay out of trouble. Your are 90 percentage likely to be in the middle class if you do does things.

[@brendanakers7294]

The Chopping Block as a black American my opinion is it’s cultural

[@soulfuzz368]

Brendan Akers I think it’s mostly cultural too, I grew up in a fairly poor brown neighbourhood. White flight is real, I flew the fuck out of there.

[@ariellawaltman6693]

This has nothing to do with race and everything to do with class

[@maloneaqua]

It has everything to do with class. That said, home equity and retirement accounts represent nearly 70% of US household wealth, and inheritances account for 41% of white American wealth, and 13% of black American wealth...since we're only 1 generation removed from the CRA, and the Neighborhood Composition Rule...pretending race and class are entirely independent entities is intellectually dishonest, at least for now.

[@funnyguy20092]

@@maloneaqua Yeah all you need for that to be true is for a few the top 1% billionaire class to give away their wealth to their descendants..if more of the top 1% are white or even if all are it throws the whole percentage off..That isn't a reflection of the majority of our population.

[@deeksha611]

One in the same thing; racism is a form of classism. Historically labor classes have been racialized compared to their upper-class counterparts, the caste system is an example of this. The beginning of anti-black racism in the Americas formed because colonialists could enslave other humans to do labor with no pay

[@alexanderx33]

0:29 dude that kid from the school paper published an article saying that PC bros only act that way so we can crush puss! Dude! (Credit: Southpark)

[@pyroseed13]

Respectfully, I don't understand how Radley can claim with a straight face that incarceration did "little or nothing to reduce crime." Even if you take the top end of his estimate (and I think Steven Levitt estimated higher), 20% of the variation in crime being explained by incarceration is a huge effect!

[@pyroseed13]

Also, there's no evidence contra Balko that any of these deadbeat incarcerated dads would stay with their family if they weren't incarcerated.

[@148.gforlife4]

Yes the sheriff are racist in jail. So are gangs.

[@Antoniobrady]

I wish they had one presidential debate in this format.

[@alexjones7845]

It seems that Balko is imagining parents thrown in prison for not paying a parking ticket while Mangual is talking about criminals that engage in violent crime or theft. Of course a child is better off if a violent parent or drug dealer is removed from their life. Maybe the opposite is true for parking fines. Just focus on removing or reducing the penalties and fines for the minor infractions that either have no victim or the victims are minimally affect would be beneficial. Also, doing more to remove the violent types will help as well.

[@madcapper6]

I have a major problem with municipalities enforcing laws not for the purpose of benefitting the public but to generate revenue. When you see parking enforcement ticketing a car at 2 in the morning (like I have) when that car is the only one parked on the entire block, you know the motives aren't in the right place. Red light cameras are another example. Cities rent those things for around 10k a month on the taxpayers' dime. On average they generate about 30k a month. To them, the cameras are nothing but an investment with a 300% return. They really don't enhance traffic safety all that much and sometimes, like when cities shorten yellow lights to increase infractions, actually make the streets more dangerous, not less.

[@mikerd1994]

The definition is the issue here. It cannot be falsified because the definition of systemic racism allows any disparity between races to be labeled a "racist outcome." It doesn't matter if you can explain the disparity without invoking racism because the existence of the disparity itself is sufficient.

[@vergo4964]

Guys, spread this. A smart debate with smart people with smart points for once.

[@BLUELOVEFOREVER1]

Really? I didn’t find it so great.

[@modelmark]

It seems police brutality in South Africa is also exclusively directed towards blacks. Apparently even with a black system, the systemic racism from the apartheid days is still stuck at the furniture, cars and uniforms. csvr.org.za/docs/policing/policebrutality.pdf

[@CourtneyHaynes]

Nice but the studies cited actually show when you control for various factors racism is the only explanation left

[@SnakeWasRight]

Unless race is actually in the law books, it isnt systemic; any disparity is done by individual racists or criminal choices. There is no policy, which applied, that ignores race on the books, that can disproportionately affect different races simply by its structure. Who gets let off and who does not, who gets harsher sentences or not, etc, these are not written into law, they're not part of the system inherently. Worst case, it's just racist INDIVIDUALS in the system.

[@marquisecuffe4061]

The problem with this argument is that it thinks “in order for systemic racism to exist then it must be codified within the law” when in reality systemic racism exists in a variety of social contexts and the law. The laws don’t reference race because they don’t need to. The basic structural layout of the US means that Black populations can be disproportionately harmed by a theoretically and ostensibly race neutral measure. It’s kind of a reductive view to just say “oh well if individual ppl are racist against a certain group of ppl, is the system racist?'' I mean systems are made of individuals, those individuals have implicit biases against certain groups of people then it’s kinda obvious that those people would have a direct link to a disproportionate outcome between two races. Before we point out specific people, we need to address the racist cultures, racist laws, and racist policies that produce racist individuals. There are four dimensions of racism: internalized, which speaks to your beliefs; interpersonal, which speaks to your behavior; institutional, which speaks to your organizational culture, and structural, which speaks to society. You can't reduce these problems to individuals because you otherwise ignore the complexities of race; you obscure the four dimensions of racism.

[@SnakeWasRight]

@@marquisecuffe4061 well, as you say, all the structures are made of individuals, so it is all reducible to individuals. But all you said was pretty much "nuh uh." Lol sorry, but I didnt see any actual explanation of how you can have structural racism if the system itself is race neutral. Sure, individuals can use the system to their own ends, but others in the system do not. For example, the political system in pretty much any system, is inherently structured to disadvantage the common folk and advantage the 1%. It's the way the systems are that treats everyone in a parasitic manner you can't escape. Whereas there are other systems which can be taken advantage of by individual bad actors, but which are not inherently bad. So, how is any system like that racially? Higher penalties for crack than cocaine in a world where more black people do crack? Meh, maybe, but you can just NOT do crack. How is a system systemically racist if its penalties depend on individual choice and not actually race?

[@moviestarmotivation]

I am happy to hear a debate where two people actually had different points of view. I feel like this Rafael fellow leaned on semantics whereas this Radley fellow talked about the systems and history. Oh my, that Rafael dude took his mask off when he said "incarceration helps children"

[@BLUELOVEFOREVER1]

History and stats aren’t always correct. Especially in todays day and age! Even WIKEPEDIA, and Google have put out false info. We live in an age of disinformation. Our mainstream news lies to us, everyday. Probably being backed by Sorros money! A communist billionaire who has been trying to destroy our country, for decades. Best tool, of the left? Chaos and division. Divide and conquer!

[@BLUELOVEFOREVER1]

The Republican Party was started by a group of Whigs, who wanted to stop slavery, and won! In doing this, they would not set up a judicial system, that discriminates. They should instead be talking about the “Fatherless homes”. That fact alone, is bringing the black (and some whites) community countless dangers.

[@BLUELOVEFOREVER1]

When cops search a car, they are not finding more drugs and contraband in white cars. His stats are in error!

[@stealthsadhu306]

Depending on the situation. When thugs, drug addicted or violent parents are removed from the home the children often improve. If custody is lost or suspended while they get treatment or serve time the system heavily prioritizes placing them with family members. If no suitable or willing ones can be found, care facilities and foster homes are still often better than the chaotic, abusive homes they survived. Unfortunetly so many are by then so damaged they grow up to replicate their parents' dysfunctions and fail in properly raising the government-subsidized, multi-mate, fatherless children of their own. Combine that with no real work ethic, job skills, and generational illiteracy and entitlement, in a segregated neighborhood filled with similar people... .It's hard to keep hope alive. Or have I too just taken "my mask off"?

[@miamiapia]

@@stealthsadhu306entitlement? be so serious. like you said, there's generational illiteracy and how do you think that happened?

[@Off-Brand_Devin]

7:58 I don't understand this argument. The counties are making these fines and fees to generate revenue, but so many people can't or won't pay them that there are 20-30 arrest warrants for every citizen in those counties. Seems the fines and fees aren't doing a good job of generating revenue and would instead be creating more costs to arrest and imprison those not paying the fines. I wouldn't put it past governments to do something so boneheaded, but I'd expect if the point was to generate revenue that someone would look at this and realize it's not really achieving the goal. Is it asset forfeiture that makes it lucrative?

[@FedUpSouthernGirl]

Asset forfeiture is not beneficial to the state or even the bank....look at 2008. Banks dont want to own properties. They want to have a wage slave who pays for the properties. And since govts collect property taxes only if the props are lived in, it truly doesnt make sense to have forfeitures unless every route for keeping ppl in the properties has been exhausted. Excellent pt that I didnt catch on 1st listen Keeping properties bc of "racism" doesnt earn money. And America and especially its banking class are about *making money* no matter who is making it for them. I think the best point made is that this whole theory is based on there being some hidden agenda of ppl who care more abt racial makeup than they do about financial gain. Slavery itself hurt poor whites but caused gains financially for the 1% who affected financial policy and therefore mattered during the time. Ppl are acting like race matttered more than the mighty dollar, which is absurd and alnost comical in its ego centrism

[@Off-Brand_Devin]

@@FedUpSouthernGirl Thanks for the reply. Asset forfeiture is something I know little about. I only suggested it at all because he mentioned it soon after the point of the video I was referencing. So, that was just my guess on how he would explain that scheme being lucrative.

[@soulfuzz368]

Fed Up Southern Girl you have a great way explaining things. You should start a channel, I would subscribe.

[@FedUpSouthernGirl]

@@soulfuzz368 ur too kind. I just wish more ppl would listen to discussions like this more often. Too many want to straw man and seek easy answers to complex questions, thus isolating the masses who are simply trying to get on with life and feed their families. I truly pray we can save our republic. Blessings and peace to you!

[@FedUpSouthernGirl]

@@Off-Brand_Devin it was a great point. I think we r so "spoiled" (which is to say that most of us dont have to worry abt where our next meal, water, or shelter will come from) that we miss the forest for the trees. We overlook the drive behind every action in a capitalist society (money) and instead search for something that, historically, was only practiced bc it was good for the bottom dollar (slavery). I just haven't been convinced that the elites put together an elaborate scheme to imprison a specific population bc of a deep-seated hatred based on skin color. I accept that I could be wrong, but saying that hate was more powerful than greed just hasnt fleshed out in my own study of history.

[@chrisnease88]

Because of segregation, prosecutors have successfully argued down a Batson claim by stating that the potential juror lives in semi-close proximity to the defendant so that they should be excluded from the pool. So Batson does little in alleviating the disparity of black vs white jurors,

[@MeanBeanComedy]

Kevin James is taking a weird career path these days... 🤔🤔🤨🧐

[@jc3cash]

😂😂

[@AKlover]

Over an hour in. Radley's pathetic attempt at virtue signaling to his leftist colleagues has failed miserably. I say that and I will readily tell you I would not piss on A cop to put out A fire.

[@CourtneyHaynes]

But the thing is he used stats not studies that control for various matters. I've seen Candace Owen's provide better data.

[@CourtneyHaynes]

What's irritating is that you think you can control very all factors. You can't. That is IMPOSSIBLE and you're committing a nirvana fallacy when you ask for that. The thing is these studies control for as many factors as possible and consistently find race to be a factor

[@johnnybgoode2484]

Racism is a moral response based on skin color. How can a system be racist without intent? How can the definition of systemic racism NOT include intent?

[@homewall744]

There is a moral aspect to racism, but there is also a legal response. A minimum wage sounds good to people who don't understand economics and think the ends of stage 1 justify coercion that harms the poor in stage 2. It is unlikely minimum wages were put into be racist, but the effect was to harm blacks, especially back teens, more than others.

[@soulfuzz368]

They want the emotional reaction that the word racism holds. Systemic bias or preference doesn’t have that punch.

[@justiceforjoggers2897]

@@homewall744 I'm not buying that argument that labor laws were put in to harm American Blacks and Hispanics though.

[@Libertyfudge]

The abortion argument was discussed a lot in Freakanomics

[@markstephens2709]

I appreciated Radley’s work when he was with reason years ago. Unfortunately he drank the Antifa Koolaid in recent times. He’s difficult to listen to at all anymore. As with Reason magazine, he is working backwards through facts. His opinion is set, and he works the facts to fit the story he’s fallen in love with.

[@jamescook398]

The arguments here were top notch on both participants... I dont believe they took completely antithetical positions, however.

[@fosterlywill]

I'm confused about Rafael's insistence on redefining systemic racism. If they can't agree on this simple term, then they're never going to come to an agreement. The topic of the debate was "there is overwhelming evidence that the criminal justice system is racist." I don't see how intent plays into this. The burden of proof shouldn't have been placed on Radley to demonstrate intent. I would imagine that it's nearly impossible to know the true motivations of every single judge, DA, and LEO. Why is it relevant to know their personal views on race are if they don't act on them anyway? The only thing that should be relevant is how people are treated. Determining if the criminal justice system is racist should be dependent on the criminal justice system itself.

[@mcodyw]

Radley bases his judgement of the system being racist on a disparity of outcomes but correlation doesn’t mean causation. Additionally, Radley never gives any examples of WHAT in the system is actually racist. At some point he says (paraphrasing) we need to tear apart the system and figure that out. If there really is some racism built into the system but we can’t look at it and figure out what it is, does it exist? If you can find something in the system that is racist I will fight against it with you.

[@fosterlywill]

@@mcodyw Is the fact that it's producing racist results not worth exploring itself? If an action or policy by the government is causing a demographic to be disproportionately harmed, we should stop it and figure out why. Correlation doesn't imply causation, but presumably these studies would have accounted for other factors, no? I would hope that these studies control for gender, income, neighborhoods, etc.

[@mcodyw]

I too would hope that those studies have accounted for all the variables but even Radley admits that not all of them have. Yes, absolutely I agree that we should look at any system with disparate results and see if there is something tangible in that system that can be changed to ensure there is no discrimination built into that system. A good example of this is redlining, that continued on after the Civil Rights Movement until made illegal in 1975. It had both disparate outcomes AND was set up to discriminate. Imagine if we did the same thing with education. “Let get rid of education because of the disparate outcomes.” But definitely should evaluate and explore alternatives, like in education doing charter schools and school vouchers in inner cities. Just not sure throwing the whole thing out is the answer.

[@kirmie44]

The dissent argument felt like it was entirely strawmanning/technicalities

[@AF-we1zc]

May i suggest that the drop in crime had to do with the internet and other entertainment options being a distraction.

[@alexafromsouthcarolina5666]

No actually that's a really good argument.

[@MK-dj7rz]

Having already come across Balko's article in Washington Post prior to the debate (pub. June 10, 2020), I was really looking forward to hearing a discussion of his claim in it, that "there is overwhelming evidence of systemic racism in the justice system." In the article, Balko begins by defining his terms and then surveying some 100 recent studies. I was curious, has Balko misrepresented anything? Perhaps Mangual would give some missing context for these. However, Mangual admits to not having even looked up Balko's studies except *during the debate,* he takes 5 minutes while Balko is talking to skim 19 of Balko's one-sentence study summaries, not the studies themselves. If the argument is over the article's thesis, why would Mangual not have gone through Balko's studies ahead of time to see if he's correctly interpreting them? Instead, he changes the definition of systemic racism and dismisses the consensus of studies in favor of a few contrarian ones (which Balko had already acknowledged in his article!). Regarding the definition, sure, debating it is worthwhile, but if Mangual is going to argue against Balko's thesis in the article, then he needs to work with Balko's definition, which is given in paragraph 3 of his article. Changing the definition of systemic racism mid-debate and then arguing against *that* claim, not Balko's, just creates a strawman.

[@LtDeadeye]

I agree. It would have been great to see him grapple with the statistics. That said, I think his is the stronger argument about the definition of racism. The left is great at coming up with new words for genders and changing the popular meaning of the term phobia, for example, but when it comes to racism, they suddenly grow lax and are content to tar and feather people with the same word used to describe a person toasting a glass of Champaign at a dinner party beneath the hanging corpse of a black man. That word they leave alone.

[@MK-dj7rz]

@@LtDeadeye Yeah, the definition of "racist," like many words, seems to have evolved. It also seems to depend on who you ask, some focusing solely on the intent of the person or policy, others focusing solely on the effects, regardless of intent. What would your take be for it? Would you use the term only to refer to the most heinous actions (like in your champagne/lynching example)? How would you describe policies like the differences in sentencing for crack vs. powder cocaine, a policy (just recently reformed) which resulted in disproportionate sentencing for black offenders than white offenders. It sounds like when discussing something like that, you wouldn't go with "racist." Are there other terms you would feel more fair about? The Associated Press has actually discussed a variety of different terms for journalists to choose from, including "racially insensitive" "racially biased" "racially charged" when discussing things like tweets, jokes, policies, etc that involve race. What sorts of things would you classify as "racist" today, and what alternative terms would you use instead of "racist" for the things that don't qualify for its usage but do involve race?

[@thinksimon]

I was actually surprised to find Balko's arguments unconvincing. If anything they point to any-poor bias (no surprise here), and racism (or over-reliance on heuristics?) by individual actors.

[@CourtneyHaynes]

That.... that was his point. The studies show that race is being used as a factor to stop people

[@modelmark]

Neither of them recommends changing the police to a subscription model with suppliers open to competition and customers able to change supplier.

[@PersonWithFace]

Systemic sexism and systemic heightism are the elephants in the room that no one will talk about.

[@danielferris152]

Worse yet, the causes of those difference CAN be pinpointed. Things like judges being taught doctrines that favor women getting the kids in divorce and separations. The "kitty pass"(not the real term) that intentionally give women shorter sentences for the same crime. The Duluth model that blames men for domestic violence, despite the statistics that say women are more likely to initiate that violence.

[@maloneaqua]

I think I saw them addressed in an older video.

[@markallenbialik]

Why is he debating Paul Blart: Mall Cop?

[@genotriana3882]

No studies that I know of adjust their data for how much the defendants pay their lawyers, what county they commit the crime in, strength of evidence or if the case went to trial. The top factors that are supposed to be used to negotiate a plea bargain are all ignored.

[@pink7930]

Outstanding debate. Great representation on both sides.

[@humanearthling4661]

The criminal justice system is not only racist (which comes from the very top) but it has become corrupted beyond belief. And the System is still at it; trying to defund the local Law Enforcement Departments so the federal fiat government can take over...and it this is allowed to happen, the only ones who will benefit are the 1% who are driving this train wreck of a culture straight into the wall of a fascist totalitarian dictatorship. The fools who are being manipulated through their emotions (no matter that they really mean well, and want racism to end, will learn too late (again!) that they have been HAD! Racism can END by every single individual erasing it from their own minds by disregarding the messages coming at them from the System itself, via its Major Media and its subtle manipulations of weak minds who have forgotten to do their own thinking. Our first task is to turn off the cacophony of the TALKING HEADS who throw a pall of nonsense over our heads so that many have no idea what is being accomplished. So many words; so little said....which is designed to baffle and impress. ..ultimately to lull with just enough truth to make the spiel believable in total.

[@Trip6IX502]

Did I hear that right? The guy arguing in the affirmative said that Every single person prosecuted under Mississippi’s gang law in 2010 was white? Did he misspeak or is he arguing that institutional racism affects white people as well?

[@harddobe]

Simple. 1. Decriminalisation of all drugs for personal use. 2. Do away with criminal asset seizure laws. 3. Do away with random stop and frisk. Let's start there and see how things go.

[@stealthsadhu306]

Really? Many cities and states have tried exactly this. How many more thousands of Black lives need to be snuffed by crime and OD's while you wait "and see how things go"? I find your utter lack of urgency, and your disconnect from reality appalling.

[@roymarksberry4152]

Don't break the law you won't hang no run-ins with the cops.

[@rebirthoflegend4797]

...don't look up stop and frisk then. Something like 99% of stops didn't result in arrest.

[@Apocalypse3434]

I've lost count on how many police encounters I've had despite breaking no laws. No arrests. And I'm white.

[@user-zl4ch7ux2n]

That's definitely false. Botham Jean and Charles Kinsey didn't break any laws. Even, Duncan Lemp was unjustly murdered in his home. That doesn't even include non-violent police encounters. Denying any conversation with police reform will only lead to more incidents and more civil unrest.

[@sofvines3940]

Is Noone going to pause on the statement alleging that the reason cops turn to arrests as means to generate revenue because they don't get enough from income tax? Seems kinda important

[@humanearthling4661]

The stats being cited are designed to CREATE RACISM.....racism that was entrenched already in order for those statistics to exist in the first place! Wake up, people; the system is STILL working the crowd smack dab into more and more racist thoughts and angers because they're trying to foment a racist war. The Human Race must stick together to stay safe. There is only one race of Humans.....the Human Race and the diversity built into it by God.

[@o.b.9781]

14:12 I'm assuming he meant to say "black" there.

[@sofvines3940]

If minority law inforcement is concerned about systemic racism (like profiling) they can stop doing it

[@mosesaltair3893]

I understand Bradley's case to be that the intent of particular officers / authorities is not the important factor in determining whether or not the system is racist. Systematic racism is a system such that we'll produce disparite outcomes regardless of the intent of the people in power. I think arguments didn't support this claim. If his claim was that there's a large amount of racial hostility in the hearts and minds of authority figures that accounts for the disparities his case would have been stronger. In fact, many of his case-in-points don't support how he defines systematic racism at all. For example - black jurors being more likely to be dismissed as jurors by the courts. Given his definition of systematic racism, does this fact support the thesis? He certainly didn't spell out how it does. That fact about black jurors could just as easily, maybe even more so, be explained as a function of racist minds making these decisions. Think through a lot of his claims juxtaposed with with his systematic racism definition and I think you'll find his case very wanting.

[@maloneaqua]

I think you're right. However, I'd assume he took this position because "hearts and minds" are much harder to assess than outcomes-data. How many times does anyone, let alone an elected or appointed official, admit to racism? Anytime someone attempts to use data, as you did (which I think is also supported by stop-and-frisk data), it is always defended as an outcome that is natural, or at best, correlated, rather than caused by racism.

[@WordsofHarmony]

Black people can and have perpetuated racist systems. Some think they can change the system from the inside. Same as people who are in poverty, continue to vote for people whose policies continue to keep them poor.

[@jigga_pops4000]

It’s crazy how this guy dose not debate educated black men.

[@sofvines3940]

"Abortion in minority community can be seen as reason for crime decline" is one of the most racist things I've ever heard

[@Floccini]

Another good debate question would be, are police in US cities more negligent or oppressive. For example, is the criminal justice system in St Louis MO, racist in that it has has not kept the risk of a young black man being murdered at a reasonable level? Is there any study of weather darker white get longer sentences than lighter whites? Humans tend to darken as they mature and so lighter skin and hair might get more sympathy.

[@kermitdagangster1012]

Very good debate....the charge of "racism" on the criminal justice is a big one...that's to suggest that part of the system must be & act to the advantage of one specific "race". Now, the disproportionately number of a group effected by said system must also be in question...what are the roots, causes & culture of said groups...as much as we don't like to admit it or accept it...the family structure plays a big part. Is the system perfect, no, as Rafael mentions...a system run by government can't by its own submission be as effective. The reforms that have transpired over the years are evidence of a transformative response to injustice, but to have every part of society to function, it's citizens (everyone) must participate in a civil & amicable society. Criminality isn't beneficial to anyone (we all agree). Rather than saying or defining "systemic racism" we ought to consider looking at a "dysfunctional system" with continuous reform & auditing to reach & constantly question it's outcome & validity.

[@robertblackshear8963]

It's easy to figure our which jobs a true racist would work. The ones that impact people directly Judges, prosecutors, cops and law makers. Not all but certainly many.

[@babiijean11]

Yeah, asking the dinosaurs if Jurassic Park is safe, huh?

[@GBusey22]

How did they get Bernie Sanders to moderate?

[@admthrawnuru]

So... here's a great example of why no one can agree here. They kinda talked right past each other because they never agreed on the aspect of intent. Consequently, the pro side had trouble pointing to actual institutions which were directed towards oppressing minorities (the St Louis fee system being the only example I caught), and the con side dismissed how clear desperate impact was even relevant. Interestingly, they didn't discuss how a systemic lack of accountability (which I think they'd both agree on) enable racist individual cops to perpetuate racist outcomes. Even if that is not a majority, it's still a systemic racist outcome.

[@georgecataloni4720]

Testosterone explains it all.

[@b1sayan]

Short answer- oh, hell yeah. What a stupid obvious question.

[@unknownchannel3141]

What bullshit.

[@GINGI9519]

It's a shame this video doesn't have more views

[@EmmanuelGoldstein74]

Rafael won this debate. The voters were quintessentially stupid.

[@AstroSquid]

HOW is a system racist, there should be examples??!?!?

[@soulfuzz368]

Racism of the gaps is all they need apparently

[@CourtneyHaynes]

Loaded question. You don't give examples for an entire system. It's like asking for examples of why your average test score is 87. That's a nonsensical question. You need all the info together to know the average. And systemic racism is an average

[@maloneaqua]

You didn't hear any of the reports cited?

[@bonsummers2657]

Genetic pre-dispositions to criminality is clearly a valid consideration. Environmental factors of course factor in, but still, genetics plays a part.

[@humanearthling4661]

Example: Human Earthling Edited June 27, 2020 at 3:17 P.M. Why is my comment made a minute ago, posted way down on the time slot? Human Earthling 1 minute ago (edited) The criminal justice system is not only racist (which comes from the very top) but it has become corrupted beyond belief. And the System is still at it; trying to defund the local Law Enforcement Departments so the federal fiat government can take over...and it this is allowed to happen, the only ones who will benefit are the 1% who are driving this train wreck of a culture straight into the wall of a fascist totalitarian dictatorship. The fools who are being manipulated through their emotions (no matter that they really mean well, and want racism to end, will learn too late (again!) that they have been HAD! Racism can END by every single individual erasing it from their own minds by disregarding the messages coming at them from the System itself, via its Major Media and its subtle manipulations of weak minds who have forgotten to do their own thinking. Our first task is to turn off the cacophony of the TALKING HEADS who throw a pall of nonsense over our heads so that many have no idea what is being accomplished. So many words; so little said....which is designed to baffle and impress. ..ultimately to lull with just enough truth to make the spiel believable in total.

[@jaysonwestbrook312]

been a staunch fan of Balko since "Rise of the Warrior Cop"... pulled the thin blue wool off my eyes.

[@clairegendron8978]

Although I watched this show late in April, 2022; I vote for Mr. Balko as the winner of this debate.

[@reflect.]

The guy in the blue blazer got destroyed.

[@Apocalypse3434]

Interesting how Rafael referenced May 31 for Chicago as being extraordinarily violent because of the protesting. It was just days later Chicago Police had 13 officers break into Rep. Bobby Rush's campaign offices to lounge and drink coffee while nearby businesses were being looted. It just strengthens Radley's argument that police haven't really been very good in resolving to violent crime.

[@humanearthling4661]

Human Earthling 1 second ago, June 27, 2020 at 3:08 P.M. --- [I cannot find my latest comment...so have no idea if it has been posted] So I will repost it: The stats being cited are designed to CREATE RACISM......and because racism has been so intrinsic in the System, it predated the time when racism became a problem between people. Please understand how propaganda works to manipulate the Population if we are not careful enough. One sneaky method is that You Tube has developed a habit of posting my comments to the general Public so far down that it seems to have been made ten years ago and not at the date and time I truly posted it.... So from here on out, I will include the date and time of my Posting.... Sorry I must be so pedantic, but it seems to be required these days.

[@victorcasillas8057]

This Raphael would have tried to make the same arguments in the 60’s or in the early twentieth century about slavery or racism.

[@garyjohnson8327]

Opening comment... you described classicism. Look at data in Appalachia, Oklahoma, Ozarks, etc. I appear White and have been caught in the insurance, revoked license, bench warrant cycle several times when I was young and poor

[@jlann8243]

He has to show that the varriables he is presenting is not included: 1) are actually affect the numbers and, 2) are not actually included. You cant just look or hear about a study and disprove it my imaging new varriables. Thats not how it works. Until he has data proving the varriables he thinks should have been included affect the results. An intelligent person would go with the body of data pointing to the system producing racist outcomes. Like my man in the video said the data supporting racism is 21:1.

[@Droselover-hu1gt]

Well, the assumption is that there are factors that you have to account for to isolate racism. It is self-evident that there are variables that affect racial disparities that have nothing to do with race.

[@jlann8243]

@@Droselover-hu1gt Yeah that’s my point is assuming is dumb.

[@blaynecarver2236]

Kevin James took the L.

[@foresthaviland3612]

KEVIN JAMES

[@CourtneyHaynes]

Nope. He won.

[@TEGRIDY_FARMS]

@@CourtneyHaynes He lost 47% to 40%....

[@CourtneyHaynes]

@@TEGRIDY_FARMS "Update: Voting on this debate ended on Tuesday, June 30, 2020, at noon EST. Radley Balko won by convincing 21.62 percent of the audience to change their minds. Rafael Mangual convinced 10.81 percent." reason.com/podcast/radley-balko-and-rafael-mangual-debate-systemic-racism/

[@CourtneyHaynes]

@@TEGRIDY_FARMS look this is simple: if your method for determining truth is to first look to the best studies on the matter and work your way back, systemic racism is in fact a problem in the criminal justice system. If not, i would be interested to know your method.

[@tex6924]

18:44 SUS

[@LtDeadeye]

If discussions such as these were had more often then perhaps there wouldn’t be riots. But only one side (the same side who cries out that the conversation must be had), it seems, is able to speak freely while the other takes damage by simply not affirming the other.

[@bbellcamp]

Liked. But, opening statements are wayyyyyyy too long ans scripted (=boring)

[@jigga_pops4000]

I would love to debar Rafael I have w fact no one has been able to diss prove

[@johnvannewhouse]

HAte it when I like BOTH sides in a debate...but it makes for a DAMN GOOD DEBATE!!!!

[@ProductBasement]

Don't want to run afoul of the system? Don't break the law

[@hero3717]

bootlicker

[@snubnose333]

if 10 cops patrol one neighbourhood, and 2 cops patrol a diffrent neighbourhood. isnt there a bigger chance that crime would go unseen in the neighbourhood with only two cops patrolling. so how do you account for that data.

[@raulmaximo5810]

Privatize the Judicial system!

[@elmoblatch9787]

That is literally insane.

[@googlewolly]

Some judges may be, but police, in general, aren't.

[@googlewolly]

@Neach ie You're wrong. Again, in general, police aren't.

[@googlewolly]

@Neach ie I could ask you the same. Anyway, I know numerous police, and they're not prejudiced.

[@michaelkubach9062]

Well said👍💯

[@PaulMEdwards]

Poll results in this article published on their website: reason.com/video/is-the-criminal-justice-system-racist-a-soho-forum-debate/

[@furyofbongos]

Rafael loses just on his $0.99 shitty ass mic.

[@Therealgordongekko]

lol. Obviously you don't understand the term "per capita".

[@manutdfan4321]

Radley's debate tactics are extremely dishonest and deceptive

[@nineten9011]

No they’re not You simply don’t like what he says and you choose to attack him personally for it.