Is the Episcopal Church Totally Apostate?

[@AnglicanApologetics]

Thank you for uploading this discussion and debate. I’m a layperson in the Anglican Church of Canada discerning vocational ministry and this gave me a lot to think about. The peace of the Lord be with you.

[@b.r.holmes6365]

What if ACNA parishes strategically took over local failing Episcopal churches?

[@wormius7350]

My concern would be what would that look like? Would it play out like a corporate takeover?

[@legacyandlegend]

​@royquick-s5n TEC sued the ACNA for church property. The ACNA won, but I'd imagine that the churches who are conservative and stay in the TEC probably do so because they don't want to deal with a lawsuit. They'd probably be happier in the ACNA.

[@pampham27]

I think Anglican reconquesta should not be limited to Episcopal church but the Anglican Communion

[@josephr.gainey2079]

​​​​​@@pampham27Including ACNA which can't decide whether or not to allow women to be priests (although the Bible clearly states women can't be priests), openly accepts and tolerates multiple divorces and re-marriages (despite Jesus' very clear teachings on the subject), yet, despite official statements, go out of the way to condemn and make feel unwelcome even those homosexual who are, and sometimes have been for their whole lives, celibate. TALK ABOUT HYPOCRISY OF THE FIRST ORDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@RandomCanadian-y1t]

In Canada, all the ACNA churches lost their buildings- There were lawsuits and the Anglican Church of Canada won. In Canada, the failing denominations are very territorial because there’s a lot of money at stake with their properties

[@mr.awsome1288]

Before watching this I just want to say sometimes it gets disheartening being conservative in TEC. I was the only youth member at our convention who actually believed in God, let alone cared. It's sad to see all the old dying members who are still faithful look at me like the second coming because they haven't seen a young person interested in church for so long. It's horrible to think what's going to happen to my church, the second oldest continuously operating in Utah, when I'm gone cause everybody else is 60 years or older. The only time I feel genuine hatred is when I see and hear the leeches who don't care paradeing the corpse of my church around taunting the faithful who are far too old or timid to actually do anything. Sorry for the long post, but there's no one besides our Lord I can vent to like this.

[@ConfessionsofAConvert]

I don't know why or how you continue operating in such a (literally) godless realm. Your venting is heard and understood, but I would seek other options though I know that causes a lot of pain. Coming from a former Protestant.

[@Coolrunnings007]

@@ConfessionsofAConvertum because God doesn’t call everyone to run away from problems. That isn’t a long term solution. The long term solution is to win some or most of this apostate churches. And some people are called to do that. You might not be called to that but he is.

[@kloa4219]

​@ConfessionsofAConvert It's not that people reject Christianity, it's that Christians actively take joy in rejecting and ostracizing others. You're seeing the end results of that with declining priests and parishioners.

[@clivejungle6999]

@@ConfessionsofAConvert The struggle for truth is its own reward. Every denomination has problems in different ways, theological liberalism is a problem but not as severe as Roman errors.

[@Gwoog55]

@@Coolrunnings007you should try St. John’s by the U:) excellent church with plenty of people of all age ranges

[@theupsidedownminddickens7242]

If the good Shepherds abandon the good members of the flock and leave them to the wolves because of the wolves within the Shepherds and the flock then who is there to protect the good members of the flock? Is it not the priests and the bishops that are to sacrifice themselves for the sake of the flock even to their own destruction as the prophets of old did, never breaking off to start a new country or new order but rather contending with the one that be to the bitter destructive ends. Just a thought. Thank you. May our Lord God save the Episcopal Church.

[@theupsidedownminddickens7242]

@@royquick-s5n you mean when the christian Jews abandoned the temple and the non Christian Jews? Oh wait they didn't abandon them either. They merely left when God himself told them to leave. Notice how only after a thousand years of martyrdom contending for the church when the schism happened and abadonment became the norm because you are much more concerned with the church of this world than with the Holy Church of Christ: a single body, not splintered. Humans are gonna do what their pride tells them is right. As for me I will stay, I will fight, I will die for the church (well until they excommunicate me...haha...even then I will not condemn them but I will still contend for the faith with them). God save the church.

[@fortisrisuspater]

Great conversation! Both the TEC and ACNA are facing vast problems of theology and those must be addressed for the good of the church. If the ACNA does not deal with the problem of Women Orders and Bishops who deny the real presence they will soon see fracturing among the province. Here is prayerfully hoping that Christ will cause both the TEC and the ACNA to return to orthodoxy.

[@gregorypizarro9403]

ACNA might be the new TEC if they don’t put a stop on women ordination

[@JusheisAwesome]

Based! When can we expect more Reconquista content???

[@marilynmelzian7370]

I am a member of the ACNA. I understand the arguments for church unity, and would agree that there are some divisions in the church that have happened because of issues that are not heretical on either side. My question is, is an apostate church even part of the church? Once you have denied the core doctrines of the church and sound moral practices, do you have any authority at all? the argument seems to be that it is the local bishop that counts, but then why be part of a larger institutional structure at all?

[@legacyandlegend]

At the end of the day, the bishop only has authority as long as he doesn't contradict or deny scripture. Accepting lgbtq and female ordination make the Bishop's authority null and void. At that point, he's literally just there to keep apostolic succession going so we can receive valid sacraments. Then again, individual churches may not agree with the bishop and only stay in TEC to avoid a lawsuit for leaving.

[@marilynmelzian7370]

I do want to say that I am encouraged to find a discussion among ACNA and Episcopal church priests who are both orthodox. Ever since the 1980s when I attended an Episcopal Church, I have met very few orthodox Episcopal priests. I even have some friends who were more or less orthodox, but I have watched as they have become more and more progressive. When an institution as a whole is very progressive, it is very hard to stay faithful.

[@legacyandlegend]

What about small towns and southern communities? They're typically old poor people. Wouldn't they be conservative? Homosexuality and female ordination aren't seen as acceptable in those places. Liberals are most likely to be in big cities. Not always, though.

[@marilynmelzian7370]

@@legacyandlegend you make a good point. I was encouraged to find that my experience was not wide enough and that there are still faithful priests in the Episcopal Church.

[@legacyandlegend]

@marilynmelzian7370 I believe there are. I'm currently LCMS lutheran. I'm moving next year to a small mountain community. There's no ACNA or lutheran church in that area. There is an episcopal church though. I don't see that particular episcopal church being liberal. If they are, then I'll defeat them with scripture. I've read the bible cover to cover 7 times in 6 different translations. I know what God's word says. No bishop or priest can contradict that. If they do, I'm not going to listen to them. What are they going to do? Throw me out? If they do, then that's just more sin and abomination on their part. I'm not afraid to stand up for God's word.

[@marilynmelzian7370]

@@legacyandlegend Good!

[@josephr.gainey2079]

​@@legacyandlegendIt doesn't matter. These churches are being led astray by wolves in sheep's clothing. THE ONLY WAY TO BE FREE FROM HETERODOXY IS TO NOT BE EXPOSED TO IT AT ALL.

[@Taiyama2]

The fact that the overwhelming majority of the Anglican communion have determined TEC to be heretical is the most important argument for me. At that point, I'm not sure you can even argue that TEC is the mainline anymore. It's equivalent to back in the medieval era when the Catholic Church would put whole kingdoms under excommunication.

[@ConfessionsofAConvert]

I'm a Catholic with absolutely no interest in either side. However, I am intensely interested in hearing these perspectives. Around the 1:29:00 mark, I am very confused how one could say there are dioceses with no bishop, affirm that many (most?) churches have invalid sacraments, and still want to remain within that communion? All of this talk of "politics" in unacceptable when sacraments deal with the souls of the faithful. I really do think you all would find it would be a lot easier to find what you are seeking within the Ordinariate. I know personally I just couldn't live with such a reality of invalid sacraments. I appreciate this debate, thanks for posting it. I will come back to it much.

[@SpooonCar]

Good, and very fair question. As I understand much of your question is made difficult to definitively answer due to the very nature of the Anglican Church. It seems to me that Fr.Matthew holds some relatively Anglo-Catholic views, which would lead him to a different posture on this subject than a reformed Anglican for example. As the articles are now non-binding, questions such as “who can properly administer the Eucharist” and other ecclesiastical matters are more or less up in the air. You know the adage, ask 2 Anglicans a question on theology and you’ll get 3 answers. And I appreciate your concern for Anglicans in suggestion of the Ordinariate, but I’m afraid that the majority of Anglicans, despite what the internet may indicate, are firmly Protestant.

[@SpooonCar]

@@royquick-s5n Sure, but that doesn’t change the truth of the matter. Baptist churches all over are taking Baptist out of their official names, but that doesn’t make them any less Baptist. The amount of pseudo-historical revisionism that seems to be occurring in the online Anglican space is rather confusing. The CoE is literally called a “Protestant Church” in the English Monarch Coronation. The only reason people dislike the title is because of the bad name it is given by BaptiPentiGelicals and Non-Denoms, and they don’t want to do the leg work to repair it. (Plus, clearly Newman thought it was Protestant lol)

[@King-uj1lh]

The Sedevacantism of Anglicanism

[@CaptainBlammo-u7s]

The Episcopal Church broke my heart so bad that I’m a Reformed Baptist now. I have a soft spot in my heart for Anglicans but the apostate TEC can go pound sand.

[@muppetpoppet216]

Yes next question

[@robbchristopher158]

I've been debating with my self about switching over to the Anglican Church. If I do switch from the Episcopal Church to the Anglican church I sure am going to miss Father Ryan wiksel from the Episcopal Church that I attend. I've been reading father Ryan's two books he wrote about the last cedar.

[@mp77744]

I’m surprised transgender priests didn’t get discussed.

[@donfaith4880]

There should be a very simple answer to this whole situation. Does this go against the Bible which we hold as the only true doctrine? If it does than this is heretical belief and should be banished by the Bishops. If the Bishops do not follow the Biblical doctrine and teachings they should be immediately removed! As this has shown that the majority of congregations are conservative and want the traditional doctrine. Why are the few dictating to the majority? The church should never accept heretical practices. If they do they can no longer be consider themselves a church of God. The Priest and the congregations should not feel forced to go against the true doctrine of the Bible. The church must stand on the true doctrine and not let their personal feelings or politics interfere with the doctrine. These Bishops that agreed to this change should immediately resign or be removed if the majority of members vote against the changes.

[@IronPyromancer]

Cool, I guess you found the guys.

[@phillipwoodfin-nb7ud]

It is not

[@legacyandlegend]

I'd imagine there are still some conservative episcopal churches. Like tiny towns where there are a lot of old poor people and in the south in mountain towns. Typically liberals go to the big cities. Conservatives stay in small towns.

[@phillipwoodfin-nb7ud]

@@legacyandlegend Dallas, Tx, New York City, Birmingham, Al, Orlando, Fl aren’t small cities

[@legacyandlegend]

@@phillipwoodfin-nb7ud Those are conservative?! Weird...

[@albertito77]

Clergy person 😂😂😂

[@VictoriousCatholic]

Yes, because lest we forget that church was the first to break ranks and say artificial contraception was okay. Now only one Church still says it’s wrong.

[@b.r.holmes6365]

You Ordinariate?

[@VictoriousCatholic]

@@b.r.holmes6365 no, but I am familiar with the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter and its head cathedral

[@anathamon]

@@VictoriousCatholicThe bishop of Antioch?

[@VictoriousCatholic]

@@anathamon no…Bishop Steven Joseph Lopes

[@paulhallett1452]

I am the Catholic grandson of Rev. Paul L.C. Hallett, pastor of St. Albans Episcopal Church in Edina, MN. This whatever it was bummed me out. Brothers - ask the bigger questions - which I know you have - but fellas - maybe it’s time to come home. My dad (Rev. Paul’s son) did so when I was a little boy (we’d done Mass and services before then) and it made a huge difference. The fires of hell will indeed not prevail, but you’re smart enough to know that this doesn’t apply to Henry. If we are putting the past behind us then consider the extent to which England’s predatory war on the Irish and the North American English-speaking world’s long history of anti-Catholic bigotry might be blinding you. Forgive me for any charity I have lacked, and please pray for me and for an increase in charity in me. I will pray for both of you and for the fruitfulness of both of your ministries. Ps: You both definitely know Mary is the Immaculate Conception perpetually virgin and sinless Queen of Heaven. Praise God!

[@clivejungle6999]

Ireland was first invaded by an English king under the blessing of an English Pope. When England was Roman, it was the most Romanist Romans to have ever Romaned. The Papacy blessed the Kingdom of England, including its conquests and expeditions to Ireland even when it was technically a papal fief under John. It only became a problem when England broke from Rome.

[@SpooonCar]

I appreciate the clear place of charity that your comment seems to be coming from, the Lord knows that Protestant-Catholic dialogue could always use more of it. However, I would like to respond with a gentle suggestion. I, merely speaking for myself, but I imagine many other Protestants, am strongly put off by the “Come Home” rhetoric that seems to have gained much popularity as of late. Once again not to suggest that it is intended poorly, but you must understand that there is a subtle condescending tone to it, almost an implication that we are merely rebellious adolescents that need to just give up their foolish stint away from “the church”. In reality, this is not the case at all, and I am sure that a great deal, even likely the majority of Protestants would love nothing more than to reunite with Rome. The problem is that to do so at this point in time would be a severe violation of conscience, and would require to things that we believe to be strictly false. As Luther said “Here I stand, *I can do no other*”.

[@Taiyama2]

You are deeply condescending and it only sparks antagonism in me. Consider changing your tactics.

[@CaptainBlammo-u7s]

@@SpooonCar Preach!

[@CaptainBlammo-u7s]

Papist vultures circling TEC trying to pick its bones clean.