Is the EXEMPLAR the best martial class in D&D and Pathfinder? (with COMBAT DEMO) (War of Immortals)

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

ADDITIONS/ERRATA: -The 3 ikons you choose at Level 1 are your permanent choices. The paragraph about changing your ikon reads: "If you acquire a new item THE IKON'S USAGE COULD APPLY TO, you can switch your ikon to the new item..." However, I believe one can still have a completely different Ikon ability under PF2e's retraining rules, but it takes longer: retraining a "class feature that required a choice" takes a week of downtime by default. -33:16 The 10' emanation of difficult terrain is permanent, but the "raised island" only lasts 1 minute. -45:54 The L20 feat Cutting Without Blade is NOT "having all your ikon abilities at once." You must still imbue ONE "ikon" (which can be anything, even a blade of grass), but it is only ONE of your three Ikons. Meanwhile, all your ikon feats that are "applicable" to that ikon apply. It's unclear what is "applicable": since if you can make even a "blade of grass" into a weapon ikon, I don't think it's always clear whether a particular feat is "applicable" to your random item. Meanwhile, you can have your spark rest in an ikon (using its Immanence ability), AND as a free action turn any tiem into another ikon immediately before or after using it. This gives you access to ONE of your 3 ikons for an instant. -The exemplar's resemblance to the kineticist reminds me that PF2e has been experimenting more with "spellcasting" that's not spellcasting: abilities that, by virtue of the fact that they have cooldowns, give design space for those abilities to be more cinematic and powerful. And yes, this hearkens back to D&D 4e.

[@ikaemos]

Audience: "Bravo, bravo! Spectacular! Mythic, even!" Arena manager, looking at the state of his establishment: "I'll never financially recover from this."

[@tanhy7334]

I'm going to call my exemplar's ikons as noble phantasms

[@ployfrase]

gae bolg

[@christopherg2347]

The Sash can be "Unlimited Blade Works".

[@andrellnogueira]

Let's ne honest, there's very little chance the devs didn't think of Fate when designing this class. Even if we consider that the inspirtations of both are the same, the choice of myths is too similar. Heck, they added Kanshou and Bakuya, who even remembers Kanshou and Bakuya outside of fate fans?

[@tanhy7334]

@andrellnogueira The first character I made while playtesting exemplar was Emiya. Twin stars, dual weapon fighter, some thrown feats, Mated birds in paired flight and Heaven rains and ending as UBW.

[@FirstLast-wk3kc]

Gleaming Blade is Tsubame Gaeshi, lol

[@robertmayotte7317]

Regarding the Humble Strikes feature: Frying Pan

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

And make it the Titan's Breaker with "Fracture Mountains"! And power it with feats!

[@MisterSmith00]

EXACTLY what I was thinking. Edit: (was at work before) I enjoyed the notion of a folk hero Exemplar monster slayer, who would use the “Humble Strikes” with their Frying Pan or an assortment of re-flavored weapons to be cutlery (Filcher’s Fork, a meat cleaver, etc…) Essentially a player character from the Monster Hunter series.

[@MaxTaleYT]

This was such an AWESOME combat demonstration! Please please please bring more of these! I know it's not your usual content, but build videos with these combat demonstrations would be amazing!

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

I've actually done them since the start! There's a playlist on my channel of combat demonstrations!

[@MaxTaleYT]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Yes, I do remember your Kineticist combat demonstration (which was the best imo!), just asking for even more! xD

[@mattg2091]

Cassius Aurelius Praetanimus the Radiant, Dancer in the Seasons, Healer of the World, will fulfill his destiny of having the longest name in the history of our table. At any cost...

[@Olimar92]

Sun Wrecker, it's actually surprising how often "Person of Divine Power attacks the Sun" shows up in world myths. Maui is one, and we all know why he's the one to think of with the Iconic of the class. Though his story also involves his brothers at times. Hu Yi is a master Archer that shot down several Suns, that were once the Sons of the Emperor.

[@KaiHouston-m6j]

My mind went straight to Rune Quest heroes. Arkat, and the like. Beat Pot with cooking impliments that shake Divine Empires. :) Hard to add to a game, but so worth it.

[@auberry8613]

Stealing fire is another Maui classic shared among other myths, though how Maui died is maybe a little unique

[@FirstLast-wk3kc]

Ten sums from chinese mythos too

[@LightningRaven42]

The Exemplar can hit a dude so hard that they erase them out of time. Badass.

[@The_Yukki]

Love the fact you can kinda do the "divinity" as your own innate power instead of something you stumbled upon. Gives big league of legends pantheon vibes "The heavens does not fear me because im a God, they fear me because im a man"

[@Olimar92]

That is good, because we don't need to work in a lore even like the Gods Rain if we're not using Golarion.

[@The_Yukki]

@@Olimar92 Yea it's neat for that too, i'm more so about the "indomitable human spirit" thing.

[@zeromaniac5210]

I love the Xianxia inspiration in the Exemplar. My favorite being "Cutting without blade" referencing how high level of sword masters in these novels are often swordless. These master are so good that any random item they pickup can turn to a deadly weapon even a strand of grass. And "deadly" often being that they can cut through mountains and...reality. So to me martials in fantasy doesn't mean they can't do spectacular things. A high level wizard uses a spell to stop time while a martial moves so fast that time stops for everyone else. Wizards got they "power word kill" while martials can kill you with a glare. I think D&D might have thought everyone wanted to be Aragorn and forgetting that Hercules and The Monkey King would also be classified as martials.

[@FirstLast-wk3kc]

Well, Monkey King had studied Dao magic tho... Cultivators and such are a mix, i would say even Dual Class.

[@obamabiden]

there's actually a cultivator archetype in Tian Xia character guide the good aligned half of it actually works (i think coincidentally) as a weirdly good "redemption arc" feat line for undead (Though since undead themselves are archetypes this isn't really a viable thing to do beyond free archetypes)

[@MisterSmith00]

It’s a high-level feat, but… …I love “Seven-Colored Cosmic Bridge”. You teleport…via rainbows. And you blast enemies with laser beams…and then teleport. It’s…perfect.

[@Hespi.]

I love you, you seem like a chill dude.

[@starpencil]

Woah, 0:52 Thanks for the mention didn't expect that to ever happen.

[@solomani-42]

That art looks like Maui. What a cool class. Wish I had this sourcebook when I ran a Roman-Greco campaign and the characters (that survived from level 1) became demigods. Would love to see an AP using these rules.

[@GreatGodGanesha]

I think the idea with cutting without blade is that the item that is your ikon actually does disappear and you "remake" it whenever you hold any object, kinda like having it in an extradimensional space and summoning it only to attack. If you switch which item is your ikon i guess it would reappear and make the new ikon disappear?

[@thebestguyaround9]

I love the combat demonstration

[@MaxTaleYT]

Something to keep in mind with the feat that extends your weapon's reach by 5ft, as well as others that give effects such as the thrown trait or the returning rune, is that they only work when your Spark is in these items, so if you attack at any point without your Spark in it, they just go back to being a regular weapon. So it kinda locks you into not Spark Transcending very often, which is boring. Also, because of that, they don't have a smooth interaction with Reactive Strike at all. Since you need to have your Spark in those weapons to benefit from these reach/returning effects, you cannot use Reactive Strike with them if you used their Spark Transcendence effect in your last turn, since that would remove your Spark from them. So if you have the increased reach feat on a greatsword but your Spark isn't on it that round, you wouldn't be able to Reactive Strike against an enemy 10ft away from you. Same if you had the feat that gives you the returning rune. You could attack against the enemy with a reaction such as Paladin's Ranged Reprisal, if you multiclassed, but if your spark isn't on that weapon, the weapon would then just lay on the floor next to the enemy and not return to you. Or, you wouldn't be able to attack at all if you're relying on the feat that gives you the thrown feat to a weapon that normally doesn't have it!

[@FirstLast-wk3kc]

You can shift into second icon and Transcend back. Just a little helper that adds options

[@blueThumbnail]

YEAH! A nice LONG, GIRTHY video for the exemplar

[@DGenHero]

*moans*

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

I hope you all can handle it

[@cyrusmann5443]

​​@@TheRulesLawyerRPGok buddy

[@KaiHouston-m6j]

I just watched Legendary Vigor.... :)

[@rekcroom]

Now I want to build an exemplar with the express purpose of giving them the longest name possible

[@berndarndt9924]

56:30 Magical items in PF2e are not boring because they give balanced small number buffs but because they give you no cool abilities that are worth using in/out of combat. The goal of paizo was to make magic items more than just numbers. They miserably failed at that in PF2e. The game would have been fine without having item bonuses. Yet, it's still the main reason why people get items.

[@quinqueshire6847]

An Exemplar on the watch? Sounds like a perfect chance to play Carrot from Discworld. Such a missed opportunity.

[@fefeman2856]

Ikons : his sword (insanely sharp), his body (pretty sturdy), his codpiece (very important)

[@deadpoolegor]

Thank you for video! Wanna add that you can throw weapons with one actions with Quick Draw feat and Thrower's Bandolier. Shurikens also have reload 0, so can be thrown even without that feat. And the sheath is noth only ikon for throwing weapons, there are multiple throwing ranged weapons (chakri for example), they can be used with starshot and unfailing bow too

[@empyreal_lord]

I think exemplars are a continuation of PF2e's belief that martial classes can be larger than life. I have a ranger with high Athletics who can superjump around--monks can do that even moreso, gunslingers can use a shotgun for a rocket-boost jump, etc. PF2e martials also getting in on extraordinary shenanigans is one of its big selling points for me!

[@Zhunix]

"Look at my mythic mole" xD

[@charlespickering2726]

Mythic sMOLEder

[@carlosmartins-ci6fq]

Imagine a big, muscular, bald guy, I'm not him but "I'll tell you then, you're welcome!"

[@franciscoteixeira174]

Ikons are better relics than the relics from the default rules

[@empyreal_lord]

I've been waiting for War of Immortals for so long and I'm thrilled to finally have it in hand! My character concept is a minotaur from Iblydos who was "myth-spoken" by a cyclops oracle and is striving to become one of the hero-gods

[@EasilyBoredGamer]

This class is the closest I think I've ever seen a d20 game come to capturing the feeling and power of playing an Exalted 3e game

[@jeronemitchell]

I think stopping the analysis at the Dedication feat leads to a misleading idea of the archetype. It is by far the strongest Dedication in the game. However, after that the feats are all kinda meh. Unless you are starting the campaign late you are probably eating two less-than-optimal feats. You could take the Dedication without taking any more feats, but the trade off is that you've cut yourself off from getting another archetype. By 12th you're getting Second Ikon and some decent 6th level Exemplar feats, but that is mid game. This isn't to say the Dedication isn't the strongest; I don't know if there is a martial concept in the game that isn't made mechanically stronger by Exemplar Dedication. It moves the power curve up. However, as a full ARCHETYPE, it does have some drawbacks.

[@CL-jq1xs]

just take multitalented and get the dedication at level 9 or 13. Then grab the second eikon or the high level feats ignoring the low level feats. If you aren't human then just take adopted ancestry. If you have any archetype that you are interested in just get the dedication between level 2-12. Just like that you avoided the drawback of locking your archetype. Using an ancestry feat for effectively 2 untyped rarely resisted damage per damage die is already too strong with or without its other features.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

I think part of the assumption here, though, is that a group has the Free Archetype variant. In a game by RAW, many people will not spend more than 1 class feat on an archetype. So the Dedication's power is very important. Also, I would still say that Exemplar Dedication + 2 feats is stronger than nearly every other archetype. The Rogue Archetype makes Sneak Attack (a 2nd feat) cap out at +1d6 damage. The exceptions I can think of being Champion and Psychic as I say in the video, which for me only means there's more than 1 archetype that could use some curbing.

[@brianlane723]

Seems like you could award ikons as part of the relics subsystem.

[@fefeman2856]

41:20 does "hurl at the horizon" allow to give the thrown property to a weapon and then, latter, add a returning rune to it?

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Sounds right

[@fefeman2856]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG neat. Now there's a character concept I can finally do

[@FirstLast-wk3kc]

The combat demonstration reminded me of the hype within class, even tho i loved them yet still

[@quiethusky]

In regards to getting an exemplar into a typical campaign, I would not lean so hard into the "epicness" that the given suggestions have and instead have the character act more of what you might expect out of a sorcerer who is either aware of their powers and using them for their own means or else doesn't fully understand it and is trying to find answers. If the table/GM was good with it, I'd seriously consider just rebranding the exemplar as a divine, martial-focused sorcerer instead (mechanics all being the same,) though I'm not super fond of having to do that for a class versus playing them straight.

[@MisterSmith00]

That, I feel, is the perfect mindset…one that mitigates the rampant “main character syndrome” that has everyone a little spooked about Exemplar in general. It can just be some individual who somehow has this unusual power.

[@obamabiden]

43:17 i know this is a high kevek feat but this is crazily impressive for a dndlike game, and by impressive i mea. "This is literally a godbound ability"

[@raynorzeraph953]

We love our giant hammers with a spike on the other end...!!!

[@raynorzeraph953]

On the note of throwing weapons, I may be misremembering but isn't there a sheath that can hold multiple copies of a throwing weapon and can also be inscribed with runes?

[@blueThumbnail]

Yes the shadow sheath ikon

[@The_Yukki]

Throwers bandoiler or something like that

[@Nerolunaking93]

@@The_Yukki Yes it can hold up to two bulk of weapons and imparts any runes onto weapons drawn from it. Also it has a two action activation that recalls all weapons back to it. Essentially it allows you to have 20 ammunition of a thrown weapon without needing a returning rune tax.

[@Etherwinter]

OMG you can make a healer/support exemplar. I'm going to do that.

[@soldier660]

Daam Ronald : ) !!! now i have to test my characters fight 3 ones too at level 10 too see if them are as good as this exemplar XD !!!

[@Olimar92]

Pathfinder Infinite is going to have a few products that will be Epithets.

[@brianlane723]

This entire book is a huge gift to design space.

[@rickcarson591]

Book marking the video so that in the future if any Pathfinder fans want to trash-talk 4th edition I can show them this.

[@wade138]

Rondo, it's got what plants crave.

[@christopherg2347]

9 Weapon Icons. Assuming you only get one Weapon Icon, that would mean there are: 9x12x11=1188 Ikon Combinations. So at least that many different Exemplar builds.

[@cosmoniums5990]

You can get up to 4 ikons with a second one of any of the three types.

[@christopherg2347]

@cosmoniums5990 That would be another times 10. But even worse, I realized there is no rule against duplicate Ikons.

[@cosmoniums5990]

@@christopherg2347 hmm. That has potential unless an errata would change it. Mostly to stop the weapon juggling at level 8, by picking two weapons of the same type and a doubling ring.

[@BuckysKnifeFlip]

Sure you could slash the sun, but can you "Stone Soldier! Destroy the moon!"

[@Alex319]

I wonder if one way to fix the issues with the archetype is to say that it only allows non-weapon ikons? Then you can still have an alchemist with the horn of plenty, etc. But you don't just get the extra damage. (Although it does stop you from using shadow sheath.) One idea would be to just say that you don't get the spirit damage bonuses but still get everything else.

[@abobbins]

The Victor wreath is still insanely strong. Spam counteract anything every 2 rounds with no cool down.

[@joshfosberry6291]

Oh man ... would a Thrower's Bandolier work with the Shadow Sheath? As a way to have a variety of thrown weapons while only needing one set of runes? I guess, also, you can put more potency runes on a thrower's bandolier? Not that I'm making a goblin exemplar with this in mind or anything.

[@acdcguy18]

Great vid! I wonder which weapons would be good options as the base for this "super weapon. "

[@kingklaus1524]

Making it so that the Exemplar Dedication has some form of cooldown on how often they can trigger their Transcendence and need to Shift Immanence normally (not freely during Initiative) could drag it far enough away from the might that Exemplar has without making it too foreign to its previous. Possibly even tag in later Dedication Feats which balance this out making it so that you gain the Initiative Shift Immanence eventually and you can use your Transcendence every other turn or so but require you to invest more into Exemplar rather than dip once for a cool new toy at full strength on top of some other martial.

[@HeribertoEstolano]

The Exemplar seems pretty similar mechanically to the Solarian.

[@justincampbell5987]

I feel like the sandals should provide an item boost. Not status

[@bryanstrahm9961]

Re: "Cutting Without a Blade" 20th level feat: My reading of this implies less that "i get all my abilities at all times" and more "I no longer need a specific item to gain the benefit, anything can be my ikon". So you could be butt naked and declare a random hair on your body your worn ikon, or a glob of spit as your weapon ikon, but you'd still need to shift your spark around as normal. It's a pretty disappointing ability if it just boils down to "you can no longer have your ikons taken away from you".

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

All your immanence abilities are active at once, yes? And let's say you Spark Transcendence with Ikon A in Round 1. Next round, you can Spark Transcendence with Ikon A or B or C, am I right? I'm not sure how this isn't your ikons not being "all available" - one still is limited by the 1/round limit on Shift Immanence and Spark Transcendence, sure, that never was in question. Do we have different understandings?

[@bryanstrahm9961]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG From my reading, immanence abilities are only active when you have the spark in them. So when you Spark Transcendance and/or Shift Immanence, you lose the passive immanence ability of the ikon you were using. Ex: if I have Titan Breaker and Victor's Wreath, if I spark the Titan Breaker, I lose the bonus spirit damage until I move the spark back on a later turn. Under "Divine Spark and Ikons", page 30: "Each ikon has both a passive immanence effect and an active transcendence effect. Both of these effects require your divine spark to be in the item."

[@MaxTaleYT]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG I tend to agree with Bryan's take. This feat is really really confusing and needs clarification. I feel that if you had all your immanence abilities are active at once, it would clearly state it on the feat's description.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

@@MaxTaleYT Hmm I think I see what you guys are saying, but the provision saying you can put your spark in even a blade of grass immediately before or after Striking with it or otherwise using it. So I read it as giving you the immanence ability of ONE (probably non-weapon) Ikon, but you also can make any other object ONE of your other ikons for that use only.

[@aminehsu6629]

I wonder if Gleaming Blade would work with Wish Blade....

[@KaiHouston-m6j]

It is Rare, but in a team of Mythic warriors, you being Exemplar does not seem an issue, The Dedication is an issue, though a Mythic warrior might take this?

[@RexfelisLXIX]

Cats will cat.

[@allanmiller9036]

do you have a list of all the modes you use with foundry?

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

The video description describes where you can find it

[@TrenchCoatDingo]

MY BLADE

[@PersephoneApplewhite-uk8ts]

I wasn't really feeling the Exemplar from the playtest, I was way more interested in the Animist. But this has made me think of like, making Nordic myth characters. Superheroes, almost

[@ragnarogk]

How i will rule the exemplar archetype: Gives the action to inbue the spark to an ikon for a duration (maybe 1 round, maybe half your level in rounds) after that it autoamically returns to you. Make gaining the trascendence ability a feat. Make second ikon require that feat or only give the immanence if you dont have it (so both ikons works the same). This way you have to inbue 1st turn, have the feat to spark trascendence and then you can juggle your 1 or X duration, sparking trascendence between your 2 ikons so it restarts the duration) maybe the more than one round duration could be a feat too

[@The_Yukki]

Paizo still struggling with layout i see? Why would you list options alphabetically. They shpuld be grouped by type and then alphabetically within those groups, or by level (if there are any higher lvl ikons which doesnt seem like there are)

[@brianlane723]

1:01:29 ... BALEFIRE?!

[@TheGrandScoobah]

Both War of the Immortals classes feel hella strong. Power creep?

[@MrDOCASERRO]

They are not hella strong, they are however very realiable and have many ways to impact the combat, others classes outperform them when it comes to certain aspects, barb outdamages them, clerics outheals them etc. But what gives us that impression is that there is always *something* for them to do, in the exemplar's case it is because they have a very good action economy thanks to their transcendence and epithet, and in the animist's case it is because of the versatility that their apparitions provide

[@abobbins]

Is animist better than bard though?

[@ragnarogk]

regarding thrown weapons: Thrower's Bandolier let you etch to it he runes you want for 2 bulks of throwing weapons and recover all weapons attuned to the bandolier as a 2 action activity. Disclaimer: it is technically legacy. (Treasure Vault)

[@shoulung6203]

This is hardly the first dedication feat to be stronger than other archetypes. I'd also argue that the very purpose of magic items is to allow you to break reality in interesting ways; otherwise you might as well be using technology, which has to obey the laws of physics.

[@illoney5663]

The Thief of Moonlight change is very disappointing, especially as the first one in the playtest was so cool, where you "stole the light from your foes eyes" making them blind and you invisible.

[@Wukong330]

Im making my Vampire God Exemplar. I absolutely LOVE the Exemplar but I feel like this class gets to do a lot. Other classes feel slightly underpowered in comparison. The archtype I would only use as like a blessing from a Godly being.

[@sqoo5]

Fighter and barb out damage it, champion is still more defensive, cleric out heals it, etc. This can do a lot, but I wouldn't say better than others.

[@Wukong330]

@sqoo5 you can build a character that heals every round while still getting to attack. Ridiculous sustain and utility. I'm not complaining. I love the class.

[@BossTripp1]

Interesting..

[@ragnarogk]

Cutting without blade: my interpretation is that you can use a toothpick with all your weapon properties wich has desintegrated but reintegrates an instant when you attack with it jsut to gains its benefits.

[@gamingleaf]

😊😊

[@sjwarhammer4039]

7:20 Increasing damage die size!? As a Foundry GM this saddens me. The system has no ability to automate changing die size :(

[@unindel2125]

Sure it does. There's a DamageDice rule element that can be set to override the dice with simply "upgrade": true" and it'll bump the die up a tier. This should be really easy for them to add to that feature with a predicate checking if the weapon is simple.

[@sjwarhammer4039]

@@unindel2125 Oh didn't know that. Is that new? Because when I put in an issue about automating Insight Coffee for Investigators I was told they couldn't automate changing die sizes.

[@unindel2125]

@sjwarhammer4039 Hm maybe there's a reason it doesn't work on strategic strike dice? I'm not sure why it wouldn't be possible but I haven't tried it.

[@DoctorDucky250]

This class looks like it exists as the ultimate red flag for the type of player that has main character syndrome, be a pompous entitled asshole to the other PCs "because I'm part god," and wants to have an obnoxiously long name "just because I can" (the joke gets old pretty quickly though). Mechanically, I have nothing wrong with it, but as a package I think it will be attracting the wrong type of people, so I think I'm a little hesitant to allow people to play it.

[@peikonpoika83]

exemplar make vanilla martials look really bad and even pointless :D

[@magnusprime27]

Maui from moana..

[@Dezbood]

Haven’t watched the video yet, just started it. If the title is true, the class deserves a nerf right out the gate. There shouldn’t be a ‘best.’

[@gamingleaf]

😊😊