Is the Flow Arts Community Toxic?

Is the Flow Arts Community toxic? A lot of people seem to think so...but why do they think that, what does it mean, and is there anything we can do to fix it? In this video I explore the idea of toxic communities/relationships and how these concepts might be applied to Flow Arts culture and what if any fixes we might have to look forward to. Fair warning: this video takes on some rather difficult topics!
#FlowArtsCommunity #ToxicFandoms #LearningFromOurMistakes
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[@theothernameno1took]

I see the community as toxic from the standpoint of gatekeepers. When I go to a camp or workshop, I am IMMEDIATELY picked on for having "crappy, cheap, gear" because it's not house of poi brand. It's very good gear that I've used for many shows, so it's in no way dangerous. I have seen myself and others be sneered at for trying to join a class or flow group for not being good enough, or not picking things up the first time they're shown, or not being able to do things backwards (?!) For some reason?! I understand not wanting to teach or at least not want to teach things for free. But to sneer at people when they ask about a trick you are currently doing, is rude and unnecessary. And I've seen this again and again. I've been treated as scum and seen others treated the same way when pressing past the beginner stage and into the intermediate zone. I've had my poi taken out of my hand at a class before and told they were garbage and I had to use a set that was far too big for me with a grip I couldnt handle. I just left that class, with a few others. None of us were noticed. I've gone to a beginner class before just to see what they were doing and saw the teacher admit it was not going to be a beginner class because that was boring. The new people had to leave. There was no place for them to go to that day. This was the only class that was supposed to be beginner...

[@natvan5869]

That sucks , those people probably suck in general No one likes a bully

[@cHAOs9]

Keep doin you. As long as you have moving lights you make raves more fun. Thank you.

[@melz410]

I came to Drex to improve my Poi, I stayed for the social commentary

[@DrexFactor]

Hallelujah! I worry frequently that throwing social commentary into the mix will be unwelcome to my audience. It is really comforting to know that it is connecting.

[@elsah3339]

@@DrexFactor on the contrary, I’m getting back into poi and along with your training videos and the really good 80HD Tech walkthrough and review, you have saved me so much time and heart ache attempting to feel accepted into a community that has large leaks from the greater US society as a whole. What I think you perhaps inadvertently unlocked in your commentary is the true dynamics of many many groups where having a skill is thought of as the “ultimate”. The breakdown and synopsis of what you have observed speaks to many different communities, one of them is the tech community with large biases against under represented groups (me as a woman in tech) included. Keep up the great work, and thank you for all layers of the story!

[@coreywright6192]

I love the flow arts particularly poi! But I went to two flow arts festivals and honestly the second one I had to force myself to go and I kind of dragged my self through the weekend because I enjoy being one with the flow and it's best when a group or a community all can work off of each other with Grace and embrace. And before I went to one I imagined that the floors community would be the most accepting and grounded and open-minded and to my surprise , I basically found the complete opposite to be true there to be honest it kind of disgusted me ! I mean most of the artists especially the seasoned ones the gained a lot of tricks up their sleeves carried themselves with the attitude that they were royalty or something and was weird to even look at those pros/vets. Let alone have a conversation with them.... In short the community was very clicky and snobby as hell but those who were in a more humble /selfless section of the flow and it's community...those folks were exceptional and admirable and gave me inspiration that area of people is where the real treasure is !

[@orichic51]

It is also like this within the music scene and the overall festival scene. I haven't been apart of either community for long but I quickly saw a down spiral of morale within these communities, especially after the pandemic personally. It makes it difficult to continue on with flow arts or these specific music events. Everyone wants to be a snob and entitled because of their intelligence, experience, skill and connections but are only destroying the communities even further. I don't have much interest in going to flow meets anymore nearly as much as I did the past few years and I don't have an interest in going to a flow arts festival, only because I can feel a sense of judgment that would come onto me and my partner instead of a sense of acceptance. It is a very sad reality.

[@ChaBukuBakke]

When I think of "toxic flow arts community" I think Facebook. This is true of FB in a general sense as well. The issue I have which I feel like hasn't been addressed (maybe you talk about it in another video or platform) is: there is a lack of accountability when harms are committed. This lack of accountability is exacerbated through social hierarchies based on engagement not based on character. The FB boosting of controversy elevates a mob over an individual voice - whether that mob is justified or no. Generally when justified there is little questionable about the behavior of the individual being "canceled". When things get murky is when people either take no side unless they fervently agree one way or another. This leaves plenty of accountability that isn't exacted on those that need it the most to be able to transform their behavior. The benefit of the doubt is given wholesale as long as someone is higher in the engagement-hierarchy and not given to anyone lower on that scale.

[@DrexFactor]

There's a lot to unpack here...let's start with Facebook since that seems to be a focal point for several people who've responded on IG as well. I'd argue that many of the problems that have been coming more to light over the course of the past few years (ie, sexual assaults at events, sponsorships only going to White Flow Artists, etc) are problems that have been occurring IRL rather than those fomented by FB. Which, to be clear: I am not arguing against the point that FB incentivizes behaviors that are harmful. That's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Where the question gets murky for me, however, is that many of the problems that have been discussed on FB have their roots in these IRL interactions. FB isn't a great platform to have those discussions, but given the lack of engagement on them face to face I also have to wonder whether it provides a platform for those who have been harmed to be able to speak up in a way that feels safer than doing so face to face. I'd also argue that many who do engage in regular harms are doing so in a way that is specifically geared toward making sure there is as little transparency as possible in order to prevent themselves from being held accountable. One example: a very well known poi spinner reached out to me months ago to tell me that my impression of how he handled accusations of racial misconduct were unfounded but refused to provide any evidence to back his claim and would only engage in the issue if I were to call him up directly. He actively sought to try to have that conversation in a medium where keeping record of his actions and words would be difficult. I do agree that benefit of the doubt is invariably given to the person in a greater position of power or influence (a problem also present in IRL interactions, too) and it's one of many things we need to dismantle in order to have these sorts of conversations in good faith. Another thing that rarely gets talked about and really should: what does the person harmed want? What will help them feel seen, heard, and supported? What do they need from the person that harmed them? What do they need from the people advocating on their behalf? One of the problems I see frequently popping up is that people center their own reactions to harms rather than the needs of the person who has been harmed. This has led to many situations wherein the harms get exacerbated through pitched debate with no clear goal outlined for either side. Without this I think even people with the best of intentions can deepen and contribute to said harms.

[@oliviahamilton8654]

I recently got into poi and bought your beginner course. Now I'm extra glad I chose to purchase your course. Thank you for facilitating an important discussion.

[@baia1225]

Thank you for voicing it for all of us. Always keep em comin pls!!

[@DrexFactor]

Sure thing!

[@thejmjexperience]

Thanks a bunch for everything you do! But this video is priceless!… and relevant in all forms of community. Very well put and hopefully flowmies will adhere to the open mindedness and empathy that is ALWAYS needed in communal situations 🤙🙏✌️

[@megshara]

started learning poi a few months ago and suscribed (and obviously i'm a fan of your tutorials)... but this has converted me into a notification bell - instagram follower kind of fan :) thank you for speaking out about these issues: you are an example that proves you can be measured and empathetic AND unequivocal in your allyship and use of your platform.

[@DrexFactor]

This honestly means the world to me. Thank you so much. I had a bit of a crisis of faith in this video late last night and debated whether or not to post it. It means a lot to hear not only that it connected but also that it's deepened the relationship that I have with people watching my content such as yourself. Thank you so much for this comment!

[@melindaagain]

I’ve usually been the only POC at meetups I’ve been to but I will say people are very friendly! What I don’t like about flowarts is the intersection between flow and drugs. I stopped going to local meetups because I was not comfortable with people doing hard drugs around me. Weed fine but hard illegal drugs are a total no go for me.

[@DrexFactor]

Heard. The drug thing has also been a point of contention for me as well. One of these days I'll make that video. 😜

[@StephanieMichelleWhiting]

@@DrexFactor Would love to see this video.

[@alexiskrohn6944]

Oh dear, do I have lots of thoughts and feelings on this one ;P (Having come to flow in a sober environment)

[@belindablunderbus1365]

I'm really enjoying these videos, Drex. There is no flow community where I live (unless I start one!?) so it's fascinating to hear about this. Ps if you started a side channel just about Drex's Thoughts on Life or whatnot, I'm sure you'd reach a lot of folk..

[@DrexFactor]

Hmmm...now that's an interesting idea! 🤔

[@casterboarderfiend]

Lots to say here and many of my thoughts are not in an actual order. Drex, Bravo on tackling this topic in not only a respectful, analytical, sociological, and multifaceted manner, but also one that inspires reflection. Everyone who pays attention to this sort of discourse knows there will be pushback from the discussion (as noted) but you keep doing the work and reaching audiences most of us cannot. I find your efforts highly commendable. I would also include (to varying extents) disability, religious, immigrant, wealth, and age status as groups that are not only marginalized in the greater context, but in flow arts as well. I would argue that the combination of the aspects of fragility of privileged/majority groups not only carried over from greater communities as a whole, but are often much louder because they believe that belonging to a non-mainstream group absolves them from having negative impact on others. This makes for spaces not only being much more polar in their general standing on how people are treated, but also whether the aforementioned oppressive status quo is honored or challenged because the existence as a subculture or fringe group creates enough anomie from the main culture that it has to create new norms. IMO we need to have more conversations, listen more, and do better to live by the platinum rule; treat others as they wish to be treated.

[@DrexFactor]

"I would also include (to varying extents) disability, religious, immigrant, wealth, and age status as groups that are not only marginalized in the greater context, but in flow arts as well." Yes, 100%. I can't believe I left able-bodied vs disabled off the list but thank you for voicing it here! "I would argue that the combination of the aspects of fragility of privileged/majority groups not only carried over from greater communities as a whole, but are often much louder because they believe that belonging to a non-mainstream group absolves them from having negative impact on others." Absolutely agreed! And it becomes especially destructive when they then talk over people who lack their privilege in those cases. Thank you for your feedback here! I'm glad this resonated!

[@flowdreas5351]

@@DrexFactor I agree with the sentiment of this and enjoy all you’re doing but at what point does the explicit inclusion stop? As in, yes you left out left handed and disabled people but you also left out left-handed brown skinned 6’2” trans males from Scottsdale, AZ that like chocolate ice cream and play in a Rush tribute band. You also left out right handed white skinned 5’9” cis males with one blue eye and one brown eye that has one arm longer than the other that is an accountant by day and a bartender by night that likes only rock music made during the years between 1990 and 1994. Do you see what I mean? It seems like if you don’t explicitly include or acknowledge every single individual person then you are somehow a toxic racist/bigot/homophobe/transphobe/phobephobe that should be canceled because you left out one person in a million people. At some point you just gotta let people mature and find their own way instead constantly trying to coddle them and make them feel special. They need to find that happiness on their own without needing others or else they’ll constantly be forcing the large majority of the community to bend to their will. That is a toxic person.

[@casterboarderfiend]

It isn't about directly addressing every single individual by combination of identities and life circumstances; its about making sure that no-one is left out or treated worse because of their on minority identity, so that systemic marginalization is not continued as an oppressive force. It's not about coddling people or making them feel special. It's about ensuring that they can be included, seen, and respected.

[@HALOn00bert]

I appreciate your insight Drex.

[@DrexFactor]

Glad to hear it!

[@blaebrobinson895]

Are flow artists inherently toxic by nature of the privilege/class it takes to have expendable free time? Yes. It’s a flow “art” that while psychologically beneficial is ultimately self serving and doesn’t uplift anyone but ourselves and the people partaking in the spectacle. It’s not elevated, it’s bread and circuses.

[@amandadurnell7277]

We are Talking clients out of having flow artists hoop performers , stilts and fire performers at Corp events now, because we are fed up with the consistent unprofessional, entitled brat behaviours. Some of these folks are totally unhinged and they cause so much extra work and stress for event producers …. I’m sick of babysitting them, & trying to figure out the Why ,,, and now we are actively avoiding it all together …

[@Syndicate888]

Amazing video. Thank you.

[@jnjfleming]

Great job, thanks!

[@DrexFactor]

Glad you liked it!

[@violinladderman3673]

I was part of it back in 2010 till maybe 2013 or around that time frame. I did enjoy it met lots of cool people really enjoyed spinning fire and stuff. The community definitely had there little small groups of friends, but everybody was friendly to eachother for the most part, but when things became more political even chatting online or whatever and just wasn't accepting of another persons opinion i just left, but i still enjoy the arts very much and still practice to this day by myself. That's really the only thing that irritated me about the community. I also blame myself it takes two or more to tango. I can't exactly even remember what it was about most likely something stupid that got out of hand. I do think about wanting to go to another festival i did have so much fun i just don't know or i should say i don't hangout with anyone that spins anymore.

[@vulcanknights]

Yes, no doubt in certain pockets of tribes/festivals & social media groups.

[@DrexFactor]

Can you elaborate on that? Is there a particular pocket or contingent you believe to be more toxic than others?

[@yhoda145]

@@DrexFactor I could possible elaborate. I think the pockets get smaller and smaller like the psytrance community has a lot of spinners who are also very empathic and spiritual myself included. Not all groups are full of hippies and I think other countries can be more toxic cos of society systems and beliefs and behaviours. Here in the UK we are a very diverse community more so then the late 90s early 2000s. We have trans, Homosexual blacks, whites, asian the list goes on so we have learned to be more accepting then say some states in USA or Russia who is. mostly against homosexuality. And I'm sure there are pockets in those areas which are the opposite.

[@kicktherancor3217]

Whole mind expansion. I love you drex. I suffer from abuse and do all I can to keep it away from everyone. This is the ice in my tea. I only want to be there for everyone. Even if I don't know where

[@jeremyquan9201]

How would you apologize for bumping into someone "emotionally" but at the same time explain or mention that it was not intended, in the best way possible?

[@DrexFactor]

I think my response to this would be to ask why it's necessary to explain that. If indeed the apology is about having bumped into someone else then explaining why you did it is kind of beside the point. If they want to know, they can absolutely ask but inserting that in without them asking kind of makes it more about you than it does apologizing for having bumped into them.

[@fisty539]

@@DrexFactor I like a lot of the points you bring up in the video. Personally if someone bumps into my physically or emotionally I don't really care, it would be nice if they did apologize but I just don't expect it. I'll also view people with manners more favourably than the 'never say sorry' guy and generally get on with them better. I think what Jeremy Quan was asking is (and sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth mate), how do you know when it's right or wrong to apologize? How do you gauge what you've done and know for sure? Eg I apologize far too much. I went to a party recently and kept accidentally taking peoples drinks, I'd point out what I'd done and said sorry like 2 dozen times in a couple hours sometimes disrupting the flow of conversation or whatever's happening. On the flipside I also probably did some things that was 'bumping into someone' and didn't notice, I'm bad at social cues too so it is hard to find a balance. Some people care if you take a sip of their drink but 99% didn't. I should just mention that I've gotten a lot better at empathising with people rather than saying 'no I'm right and your wrong!'. If someone says 'hey that kinda hurt my feelings' I'll talk to them and try to understand why what I did was wrong, then apologize. But maybe 5-10 years ago I was the 'I'm always right' guy lol. Appreciate all your content and views man, I like these vids as they help a lot in day to day life too, Cheers from England!

[@joshthebunbun]

What I find helpful with “emotional” bumps (shout out to @DrexFactor Poi for giving me this language) is to break things down into intent vs impact - intent is what you meant to do, impact is what actually happened. I use this to structure genuine apologies by some variation of “I meant to do X, but I understand that Y happened and it caused Z to you. I’m sorry for that, how can I fix this?” It feels kinda forced at first, but once you get used to it it can be an amazingly humbling, effective, and collaborative way to move forward from bumps.

[@MrKanemusic]

I dont know much about the irl or the scattered communities around the internet, i learned about Flow arts on TWITCH, with the Team Flowmies, and it is the most wholesome community i could ever find

[@DrexFactor]

As I said on another similar reply: I'm glad that your experiences have been largely positive. That is absolutely valid. Many others (including myself) have had experiences that are not so positive. And those experiences are also valid.

[@StarStreamFlowArtist]

Hey what's up buddy (;

[@StarStreamFlowArtist]

@@MandulaEnkara I can send you the invites

[@StarStreamFlowArtist]

@@MandulaEnkara check your latest KZbin upload in the comment section

[@ChaBukuBakke]

We are definitely trying to build something wonderful on Twitch & Discord within the Flow Arts world. In some ways because of how new these things are it hasn't been tested against something of the things Drex is talking about. So while we've not had a lot of controversy in building our Twitch Fam - it may eventually come to a moment of growth to look at a difficult thing that has happened and take action.

[@natvan5869]

5:30 made me super happy thanks

[@blakerowedder2943]

I am consistently impressed with how articulately you discuss these topics. A lot of wisdom here transcends just the flow arts community.

[@DrexFactor]

Thank you so much!

[@yhoda145]

our community in the UK is not toxic at all well at least in our own little bubble of spinners we even have guys in our bubble who are not spinners and we except all people and they like us cos we except them into our tribe. We have such a diverse group and we all see each other as family and we listen and express ourselves without judgement. Even the pros are humble and we always bounce of each other share tips and tricks and we all get together on full moons and have a fire Jam which is where the community magic happens, no one is better then each other we all watch each other and inspire each other with no snobbery so its sad to see that some tribes can be so toxic. I can't wrap my head around why they don't vibe as a tribe. If we even get anyone rude or condescending they wont be welcome in our group we won't tell them to go they will just get ignored, we always help each other, we try each others props and never call them garbage as its a personal choice to you, we have such a diverse group of absolute beginners to absolute masters and I've watch them grow in the group and this is what the community should be like. No one started a master so should never snub on someone for being rubbish as all masters were rubbish to start with. I started spinning 16 years ago and I'm only able to pick up new moves within 10 mins cos of experience and to see pros being rude cos a beginner struggles to do this makes me angry. Can you remember how long it took you to learn forward weave, backward weave and to turn then onto fountains? this is the basics and it took me at least a week just to do it and a month to get my plains perfect and flawless

[@StarStreamFlowArtist]

This is why I developed another community. WITH accountability. Discord ftw

[@DrexFactor]

That's great to hear and I hope that energy carries over to IRL interactions as well!

[@StarStreamFlowArtist]

@@DrexFactor so far so good, we made jerseys with names on our back and invite codes on our sleeves for when we venture out into the world to intertwine it all so it's definitley not just an Online thing

[@ChaBukuBakke]

Curious what that accountability looks like? Do you have rules based around social engagement with one another? What happens when someone in a position of power needs to face accountability for harmful behavior?

[@TavernScoundrel]

Where is the community anyways? Reddit? Facebook?

[@casterboarderfiend]

Reddit, facebook, Instagram, IRL.... If you use the two former, let me know what sort of prop or community you are looking for and I will likely have suggestions for groups you may want to join. (this goes to everyone who sees this comment- I have a large list of groups)

[@DrexFactor]

All over. There are plenty of communities that are meeting face to face in spots all over the United States and the world at this point. Much of the discourse has been in Facebook Groups, Discord Servers, Reddit threads, KZbin videos, Instagram content, and now Tiktok videos as well. If you look for it, it's not terribly hard to find.

[@Zombie1.8.7]

I've met nothing but beautiful people every since I started my poi training, Ive had nothing but good advice of people, I've been tought new tricks by strangers, I've spent the night on Brighton beach with a group of beautiful people who I am now friends with so toxic is the last thing I would put on the poi community or I'm yet to see it 💯 🙉 🙈 🙊

[@DrexFactor]

I'm glad to hear that your experiences have been positive. That is valid. There are quite a lot of people who haven't had nearly as positive experiences (myself included). Those experiences are also valid.

[@Zombie1.8.7]

@@DrexFactor I'm doing your five week challenge At the moment, I'm two weeks & I've already learned Three of your movements or tricks so I'm a week ahead of schedule, You are amazing & I'm always recommending your channel to those I meet of there, I started learning from 4months ago & already I look like a pro lol 💯 🙉 🙈 🙊 Ps KEEP doing what you do my friend🤹‍♂️

[@yhoda145]

same here in Bournemouth, as soon as found this group I was home and left my home town to move here and now have a family I'm proud off.

[@jonny_mazerati9410]

That face on the thumbnail 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@DrexFactor]

You should see the shots that didn't make the cut ;)

[@jonny_mazerati9410]

@@DrexFactor lol! I actually would like to see them ! 😎

[@juanchoporro]

firtst world issues... :v

[@DrexFactor]

While I can assure you they're not, I also kind of what to address a pet peeve: there's no such thing as the First World anymore. The terminology dates to the Cold War when countries aligned with the United States were considered the "First World" and countries aligned with the Soviet Union were considered the "Second World" while countries aligned with neither were called "Third World". The term is outdated and imprecise both because it became a proxy for economically underdeveloped (many Third World nations experienced excellent economic conditions despite being excluded from the vast majority of the world's trade for the better part of 50 years) and because it no longer reflects the political realities of a world in which there are many actors working at cross purposes.

[@melindaagain]

Issues are issues man. Not great to compare to others. If you need help, get help. No need to minimize. People should recognize their shortcomings and work on themselves.

[@shizz74499]

As a 32 year old white male who has heard the world, for years, tell me how I need to change, I'm always at internal conflict and working on the stability of my own self. Women, LGBTQ, any color, any race, any character, and sex: if you have internal struggle keep that shit inside until you understand it and love it. Then you can join the grown ups at talking because the only good talking can accomplish is from people who have been doing work on talking before they spoke.

[@DrexFactor]

There is a whole lot to unpack from this. First up I'd ask how easy it may be for someone to understand and love themselves when confronted with communities that marginalize them for something out of their control. Asking them to do all that work internally kind of lets everyone else off the hook for participating in that marginalization. As a person with Major Depressive Disorder, it reads very much like being told that I shouldn't talk about it unless I'm able to manage and love it. That's pretty challenging when confronted by loads of people who will tell me that my illness is made up or my own fault for failing to think positively. Rather than have to build up the mental shields and walls to have to engage with people who refuse to confront their ignorance, it would be really nice if people would take the initiative to work to understand that there are experiences outside their own sphere of existence that are equally valid. It's my job as a man to try and understand the ways in which many of the messages I've been exposed to over the years from friends, family, and media have influenced my perceptions, stereotypes, and expectations of the women around me...and to realize I'm not the only one that is placing those expectations upon them. As for how you need to change...not gonna lie, it really sounds like there's some resentment in that statement. That being asked to consider the experiences of others somehow makes you feel as though you aren't good enough. One thing to meditate on might be that if people are asking you to change your behavior or learn about experiences other than your own, it's because they want to keep you in their life. If indeed they considered you irredeemable they would ghost. But the fact that people have asked you to change is a sign that they care about you and thus that you are good enough to keep in their lives. They might be just hoping you're able to grow and become an even more positive influence in their world. There's clearly a lot going on there that I don't know about, but what I do know is that several people in my world have challenged me over the years and the results have always been for the better. I've become a better, more empathetic person as a result of those who told me that I could do a better job at different points.

[@shizz74499]

You can feel a whole lot of ways about it but the facts are the ones doing something about it are the ones who are able to handle things without the need to cooperate. Those who handle themselves move along without need for others to part ways or hear them out. The rest of it is kids with a disorder on any level and I myself am always working on these challenges diligently. As the saying goes those who speak loudly want to be heard those who act loudly need say nothing at all.

[@DrexFactor]

@@shizz74499 "Those who handle themselves move along without need for others to part ways or hear them out. The rest of it is kids with a disorder on any level" Yikes, dude. Just yikes. Wanting to be heard isn't a disorder. That's asking for basic human respect.

[@shizz74499]

Wanting to be heard and being able to do something regardless if you are heard is the difference. If you care to handle your disorder then you do so without anyone accepting or helping you. The only person who has to acknowledge your disorder is you. It's not my disorder. Did your teachers always help you get an A?

[@shizz74499]

Ghosting means the Devil is your master because you changed who you were.