Is the Horde evil?

[@i.j.dragonfly3123]

The bad writing does not lie in Sylvanas's behavior. She's always been the most evil leader in the Horde. The bad writing lies in the fact that she was ever made Warchief in the first place.

[@thisguyhd6591]

That was the jailor zooval not. It was rigged.

[@music79075]

The Horde is literally made up of The Forsaken, nuff said. The Orcs, space alien vikings that murder-raped, pillaged across the bottom half of one continent and then under Thrall... did much of the same thing just no longer controlled by Demon blood. Still chopped down several sacred forests, invaded peoples lands and started wars The Darkspear Trolls practice cannabalism, slavery and are the degenerate cast offs of the Zandalari who are one of the most vile and ruthless factions in the series. The Tauren, the token good teammate The Goblins, a fetid almagamation of the worst stereotypes of Jews, Black Americans and Italian Americans rolled up into a fantasy race. The Blood Elves, a race that actually somewhat morally grey but also has a massive crack er i mean Then there are the Haunderen Pandaren who saw that group of people and said "Yeah they seem reasonable!"

[@thisguyhd6591]

Humans chopped down sacred forests too.

[@thisguyhd6591]

Humans also invaded lands and started wars. Just with trolls. They stole so much land from them. They went all “colonies MURACAH Indians guns yeah!”

[@ZeptionHellsing]

as a player don't care i like both faction, maybe horde less now cuz some tiny fluffy fellows but as for Lore and who is bad guy? Horde was always evil, from the first time those Orc step out of the Dark Portal toward history only moments of "Hey are we the baddys?" is when thrall gets in charge and MAYBE stops a few of the bad things from the horde but all in all they destroy more things are always the aggressor and sure you can try to Blame it all on Garrosh or Sylvanas but they where doing nasty stuff from the beginning that the Horde is very good in creating new Mister H who want nothing but to look the world burn is nothing but the tip of the iceberg sure when those guys are in power bad things get 10 times worse and more war is incoming, but the horde was bad from the beginning now can the horde find redemption? sure disband the horde join the alliance, Delete every single Undead because increasing the Undead population to have an undead faction is only good for war literally everysingle thing an Undead wants its the opposite from a Living Person, so yea.. no more undeads pls, plus being undead is a torture they can feel the maggots on their own body WHO WOULD WANT THAT!! NOW ASIDE FROM LORE and into Gameplay, i would like to see the Horde lose the ward Join the alliance and break this there is always 2 factions thing and make a different enemy who players can join, or something different because horde vs alliance is getting old they stop war to deal with big baddy then restart war then stop and kill baddy then restart war, nothing happens.... end this stupid war and create a new faction or enemy, but sadly blizzard won't do that the 2 faction system is something they won't change ever... sad~ but something like instead of horde vs alliance being Alliance vs Fel or Void and players can be part of the enemy faction with corrupted characters also blizzard sucks at distributing races between the factions... Bloodelf, Nightborn... come on.. blizzard... those are Alliance races, sure 1 bad human, omg o horrible lets join the faction who Haves Trolls and Undeads, Literally the sworn enemy of the Blood Elf/High Elf, BUT hey!! those Alliance guy have that 1 BAD guy!! and we can't join them~ and i don't say we need them now on the alliance this is just a point to add for how badly blizzard manages FACTIONS and why Horde should be disband so we have only 1 faction with all the races

[@thisguyhd6591]

Man… you are bad at this. The horde tried to make peace with the alliance when thrall was leader. Guess what the alliance did ? They said fuck you go away. So no. Alliance is way worse. Stormwind was build by slaves. They refuse to make peace. They are prideful and think they are the only race that deserves to live. They are highly racist towards all elves and even enslaved the high elves. Wrynn was a war maniac full of hate. And the horde only invaded Azeroth because they were kind controlled by demons. They had no choice. So when the horde comes to apologise to the alliance and wants to make peace the alliance invades the Stonetalon mountains and refuses to leave the land. Instead they take it as an aggression towards them, basically playing Russia by invading and pretending they are getting invaded. Even the Noght elves told them to stop, the alliance said fuck you to the elves and the elves attacked, when they were beaten they gave up against the elves and went on a compromise to join forces. ONLY because they couldn’t win against them. The first humans slaughtered worgens too instead of finding a cure. And never gave a shit about their fellow kingdom. If you wanna talk moral high ground. know your dam story!

[@AnteikuNation]

Thank you for the hard work in this video. From one KZbinr to another I can appreciate the time you put into this video. And thank you for breaking Sylvanas down in such a smooth intriguing way. Good job brother!!

[@gameboi360]

Massacring civilians for NO reason. Yes they have crossed the line and are pure evil.

[@keihndeth]

... well you're kind of proving my point by saying that. The point of the video isn't that the Horde is evil (they aren't), it's that people see a title or see an early moment in a story and judge everything before we truly know what happens. I presume that will be lost on many, if not most. It's hard to tell a story in todays fast-food, netflix binge, instant gratification culture. People will judge this video and downvote it before even listening to more than 3 seconds. Its this mentality that is effecting peoples opinion of Blizzards storytelling in this particular case. I urge patience on the fans of Warcraft to allow the story to unfold.

[@JCHauntsman]

But what about massacring civilians for A reason?

[@deadchannel4229]

@Tomáš Pavlík Remember the story is still going. do not hate horde players, because we have the power to make a change in the story. The Horde still has a chance of redemption.

[@Dimension3500]

Amazing video. I always said Sylvanas was Neutral Evil, she is selfishly ruthless, and she NEVER deviated from that road. It was obvious to me that she would burn the Tree. All people complaining about it were just rationalising all her actions and finding excuses do THEY could still find reasons to like and cheer for her. And you know what? I love to hate Sylvanas because she IS Neutral Evil, selfish and ruthless, this what drives her character and everything she does. Amazing video, as always. A shame you don't get more views - among all those Horde KZbinrs whining and saying WoW is ruined and that the writing is atrocious. PLEASE continue doing this! Have a good one!

[@keihndeth]

Thank you so much for the kind words =) . I also love to hate Sylvanas as an Alliance fanboy myself. I love her character. I was sad when Garrosh was ended too. I really thought he had a ton of potential as a Horde leader. In regards to popular WoW KZbinrs, I think the problem is that most of them got into Warcraft lore very late into the game. Like Nobbel for instance, who does amazing work, gets things wrong sometimes as he didn't get into Warcraft lore until WotLK. My point is seeing the lore through a historical lense is far different than experiencing it when it was new and you played through it before it was retconned. I was a huge lore nerd from Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness. It's whats got me into WoW. I plan on many other videos. I currently have a "Allied Race: Forest Trolls?" video almost complete. If it isn't out Tuesday, it should be out by Thursday.

[@i.j.dragonfly3123]

"You must find your path to redemption and redefine the Horde" Oh, knock it off with this condescending, pretentious crap. Players, whether Horde or Alliance, have zero control over the story. You yourself said this earlier in the video, when you defended the way Blizzard is writing Sylvanas. Why is our lack of agency only relevant when it's convenient to your argument? I don't even disagree that the Horde has done some horrific things in the past, Teldrassil being only the tip of the iceberg. But my troll druid did not personally bomb Theramore. She did not blight Gilneas. She did not appoint Sylvanas Warchief. She did not even participate in the War of Thorns. Are her hands dirty? In the eyes of the writers (and apparently in yours), they sure are! All of this is Blizzard, shoving our supposed crimes down our throats because we dared to play one race instead of another. This game isn't designed in the same vein as SWTOR, where players on either side of the war have real choices in the morality of their actions. Instead, we are only capable of being what the plot demands us to be, roleplaying value or suspension of disbelief be damned. In WoW, our choices are to swallow whatever hamfisted narrative Blizzard gives us, or don't play at all. I chose the latter. I couldn't stand the cognitive dissonance of being told to "have faction pride," while simultaneously being guilt-tripped because of a non-player character's actions. In a story where our only two options are now Lawful Boring and Chaotic Stupid, neither was palatable enough to waste $15 a month on.

[@GeneralKenobi75]

No, but none of the Horde tried to stop it. Like with Germany during WWII, the members of the Horde could have opposed Sylvanas but did nothing.

[@thisguyhd6591]

@@GeneralKenobi75 there is an entire quest line that is dedicated to stopping her. Stfu or know your lore.

[@IronCow8]

Amazing video I enjoyed it greatly

[@fischer739]

lol 'The Alliance cinematic'

[@williamarthurfenton1496]

Indeed x10. I have said multiple times that Syvlanas is not at the mercy of fan-fiction crazed fanboys and fangirls. She does what SHE wants, not what they want.

[@sovietheavy5500]

We need someone who do evil things to destroy him for the alliance

[@thisguyhd6591]

The alliance is dishonourable dogs who doesn’t even keep their word. Stormwind was build by slaves.

[@Braigwen]

This still doesn't change the fact that Blizzard has forgotten canon. Cata, anyone? Did everyone forget the Druids of the Flame? How it took months for them to set fire to One Branch? No? Then Blizzard still screwed the pooch. Teldrassil is magically resistant to fire. If they want to take that away, it should have been in that flaccid attempt at literature that was Before the Storm.

[@roebenns7601]

Good job i enjoyed this.

[@infolizard8441]

Wow, that was a great theory

[@voidwalker6581]

Alliance is evil, I blame arthas what he did about sylvanas and her people , so sylvanas she killed 2 thousands not millions high elvs , also alliance betrayed high elvs ,when arthas attacked silvermoon , so is alliance evil yes 100%

[@silver4831]

Arthas was posessed?

[@thisguyhd6591]

@@silver4831 Arthas was in control. He beat Nerzul and continue ravaging like nothing changed

[@Braigwen]

Excuse me? Stark contrast to the Alliance's history? So, after the Orcs were freed from the Demon's control, which you seem to have forgotten, they were enslaved by the Humans. Or is slavery ok as long as it's against a non human race? Admiral Rodgers ordering the attack on a peaceful Horde vessel at the beginning of Cata wasn't good. It was an act of war that Rodgers wanted to keep hidden. That's why he ordered the attack against the Goblin ship escaping their island. Or are Goblins and Orcs all evil simply because they're not one of the 'pretty' races? What about the attack at Camp Turajo? The Purge of Dalaran? The Alliance aren't the angels you pretend they are. Tyrande is a bigot who hates all Orcs. Malfurion is an eternal screw-up who hates Illidan because he took charge. Anduin is a naive little Gary Stu with magical lie detecting bones. Moira is a scheming back stabber. Greymane has committed treason multiple times, even going so far as to divert much needed troops to attack an ally. No. The Alliance aren't all good either. That's why we hate this. This is white washing everything the Alliance has ever done. Slavery is now good, genocide is now good, attacking without provocation is now good as long as it's all done by the Alliance. No. You are the one who needs to take a step back. This is not carefully orchestrated. This is a blunder that Blizzard may not recover from for some time. This is bad, rushed writing. This is not Wildstar. Simplistic, childish writing has no place here.

[@keihndeth]

What I'm referring to is horrific acts. Not bad acts. Not acts of war. Theramore being destroyed the way it was not an act of war. Nor was plaguing an entire civilization like in Gilneas. Or paving the road in Outlands with the bones of the women and children of the Draenei. Or slaughtering innocents the way Sylvanas did with Teldrassil. Camp Taurajo, the Purge of Dalaran and imprisoning Orcs does not compare to those atrocities. Thats just a matter of fact. The Humans could have killed them, but remember when they were imprisoned they were still under the effects of Bloodlust. Matter of fact, the cost of the upkeep for the camps broke the Alliance which is part of the Warcraft 3 storyline. You're welcome to be a Horde fanboy. More power to ya, just recognize it and accept it.

[@Braigwen]

I would rather nuance be in the story. Not cartoonish characters with no other motivation than Evil and Good. What I want, are characters with actual motivation. And no, I am not asking for Game of Thrones levels of intrigue. What I am asking for is writing that is better than this. I understand that Sylvanas is evil. She's also pragmatic. Practical. Tactical. She is also trying to ensure that she stays out of the Darkness as long as possible, because we all know what's waiting for her there. But, if acknowledging that there is good and bad in all characters makes me a fangirl in your mind, fine. Let's wait and see when BfA comes out. See if people don't do a double take at Tyrande having a completely different character. Let's see how people scream why Sarufang didn't declare Mak'gora against Sylvanas the moment she told them to burn the Tree. Because if the writing team was worth their weight in salt, Saurfang would have sent Sylvanas' head flying the moment she gave the order. Also, this is not 'Morally Grey' as it was advertised. But some would call me 'Entitled' if I am irritated that things are not as advertised.

[@keihndeth]

The very fact you feel so strongly only shows how well of a job they've done. That was the point of this video. It spurred your emotions. For the Alliance its "Those monsters!" and for the Horde it is "This is not MY Horde!" That's good writing.

[@Braigwen]

For a lot of Alliance, they're taken aback by the writing. I am thinking about this as a player, not as a member of the Horde. As a role player, I can't reconcile this. Why is my choice being taken away from me? The Alliance gets a quest to rescue civilians. The Horde does not. Why? If they wanted to push players away from the game, they succeeded.

[@Braigwen]

I am not saying that the Alliance is all bad. Nor am I saying that the Horde is all good. Where's the nuance? Where's the 'Morally Grey' choices we were promised? Where's the choice at all? It's no where to be seen. We just have to participate in this because plot. No. I refuse. I'd rather cancel my sub, than have my choices made for me by what is looking to be rushed writing.

[@veravalo]

The Horde is evil, and I support the Horde! Doing horrific things to get things done is definitely one way of doing it. No reason for the Horde to show human virtues which in my opinion are a weakness and waste of time. Thrall's Horde is dead. We are here to do what's right.... FOR THE HORDE.

[@silver4831]

Thrall's Horde IS the Horde ya silly.

[@GeneralKenobi75]

So you support genocide then?

[@thisguyhd6591]

@@silver4831 it’s the only right Horde. It was the Wise horde. Since Thrall stepped down there’s nothing not been Baine to keep the principle’s of the true horde alive.