Is This Doctor Who's Most Political Episode?

[@HarboWholmes]

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[@CobaltXMusic]

Literally editing a review in your style of Songs of War right now, it's fate lol

[@fredrickcampbell8198]

I must say, the starting minutes of your video is an important antidote to polarization. The more media portraying this, the better.

[@jonathankozenko]

I also absolutely love that one bit from the 7th Doctor's anti-nuclear war bit in 'Battlefield' (underappreciated story), where he talks the villain out of launching a nuclear weapon, as she comes from a world where no such thing exists, and she just sees the use of one as a quick victory -- "Death falling from the sky - blind, random! Machines of death and light brighter than the sun! Not a war between armies, or a war between nations - just death, death gone mad! A child looks up in the sky, his eyes turn to cinders - No more tears, only ashes! Is this honor?! Is this war?! Are these the weapons you would use?!" The latter part in particular still gets me

[@CobaltXMusic]

Beautiful speech

[@roeiweingarten9389]

I always read the "let Clara Oswald get inside your head" line as him telling bonnie what Clara told him in DOTD, not that she literally changed her mind from the inside

[@thogthemighty7960]

I always interpreted the "you let Clara into your head" line not as Clara's will enforcing itself over Bonnie, but the voice of her reason, much more metaphorical.

[@cinemagoose]

I know it's beating a dead zygon at this point, but Capaldi is breathtaking across these two episodes

[@backpackerraden6268]

"ooooh it was the horse...." But also yeah he gets so much to do this story and doesn't waste a moment of it. Part Bob Woodward, part Cicero, part worried grandpa and it all merges beautifully. It's absolutely nuts that we got this performance and "Heaven Sent" in the same season.

[@wc8246]

This episode alone caused Capaldi to become my favourite doctor, I'll find myself overlooking some of the worse parts of his role, and focusing on the better ones because of it. I have simply never been so engrossed, so hung on every word as I was by the speech in this episode. He really became the _Doctor_ of War in a way I don't think we expected.

[@Samviking01]

This

[@brobro9169]

Capaldi was always the best of the new doctors to me, it’s just SOME material he was given was hard to get through at times

[@Samviking01]

"Have you ever wonder if imposters are Among Us" Well done Harbo for playing algorithm correctly

[@wolfwarrior9451]

Very clever, but felt like a mental flashbang

[@TenthSgtSnipes]

I think I’ve never not teared up when Kate backs down, just her “I’m sorry” isn’t just a placation but is so, so genuine in guilt it hits hard.

[@backpackerraden6268]

On the topic of Jenna Coleman as Bonnie: just conceptually it's crazy to imagine playing a character who's pretending to be your character that you've known for years. How do you give the audience enough breadcrumbs to not make the reveal either too obvious or too surprising? And yeah she's wonderful as a scenery chewing villain. Great review as usual

[@CineScarborough]

She's easily one of our country's greatest actors, and further proof that, contrary to what some believe, many of our best actors originally came from soap operas (Jenna Coleman having appeared in Emmerdale before Doctor Who).

[@backpackerraden6268]

​@@CineScarborough she's always an actress I'm happy to see in a project for sure! And yeah the bias against soaps is a bit silly. Are there bad soap actors? Absolutely. But can you really fault the good ones for just doing it to pay the bills when starting out?

[@leacwm]

@@CineScarborough she also played melia in xenoblade, many good actors also come from jrpgs

[@Seb_Falkor]

This was the episode that got me into Peter Capaldi and back into Doctor Who after I dropped off like many others after Matt Smiths departure. Found it on randomly and I'm so thankful for it because Capaldi is now my absolute favorite Doctor

[@insightfulgiraffe]

Secret Invasion could have learned so much from this. One of my most favorite two parters and my most FAVORITE Doctor's speech

[@Captain_Maeve]

I don't think that it implies Clara changed Bonnie's mind, I think its in reference to Clara helping him make the same choice in the 50th, and him passing it on to Bonnie.

[@lucypreece7581]

The timing of The Zygon Inversion for me is what gives it more impact. That episode aired pretty much a week before the Paris terrorist attacks. Also Capaldi is just absolutely GOLDEN in that big scene. It's pure art. If Heaven Sent didn't exist that would be his Magnum Opus.

[@Jackson-ub1uv]

It's insane just how much _better_ these _two_ episodes handles the idea of shapeshifting infiltrators than the _entirety_ of the MCU's Secret Invasion

[@R.senals_Arsenal]

This is S tier, this story is a masterwork, the speech at the end is perfect and I remember watching it the first time w/tears welling up, totally forgetting it was a TV show and just feeling it, and being proud of the Doctor for his beautiful solution, and then proud of the writers for making it a victory of words and ideas over ignorance and petulance. Absolutely my favorite modern WHO moment.

[@isobarkley]

"london........... what a dump" is one of my favorite jokes

[@Sillimant_]

It's not a joke, it's an observation

[@danielgertler5976]

This is everything marvel's secret invasion wasn't. Also, here's an example of a truly great episode under moffat's era. I don't get why people always whine about his time as show runner while pointing out the bad episodes but ignoring amazing episodes like this, hell bent and eleventh hour, meanwhile they only seem to remember the great peisodes of RTD era and forget there were also some pretty awful stinkers in that run too.

[@Anni6758]

For me its that moffatt has such amazing potential. Episodes like this are sooo close to being perfection. Imagine if he could sort out his inability to complete a storyline, plotholes and awful writing of women. He would be sooooo incredible. And thats the real shame and why his run is dissapointing - because hes sooo close.

[@yospidey0078]

I swear people have a lot of rose-tinted glasses for the RTD era. Tennant's first series isn't really that good compared to Capaldi's first series.

[@justanormalhumanbeing1903]

12's speech shoukd genuinely be studied in film studies or media classes in gcses and a levels and such because it is an absolute masterpiece

[@y_fam_goeglyd]

I love this episode for so many reasons. But just when it was briefly there, as you showed in the clips, the humour was absolutely spot on. As he introduces himself to the commanding officer, she says, "Yes, we know who you are." Guess what I had a mental flashback of!

[@baxtermortimer1550]

doctor who did in a two parter what Disney's Marvel couldn't do with an entire show (Secret Invasion)

[@talesofawhovian9690]

It becomes all the more embarrassing when you remember that *211.6 million* were invested on “Secret Invasion”, while these two episodes had a budget of around 2 million.

[@FTZPLTC]

It's funny that we can talk about shapeshifters in Doctor Who and just skirt by the Doctor shifting shape now and then.

[@blitzwinner71]

Capaldi's speech in The Zygon Inversion, imo, is the best speech in the entire franchise. This speech is timeless, as who knows what conflicts will appear in the future, whether it be on Earth or wherever the human race ends up. What it preaches makes it the most important Docotr speech of them all, which inturn for me, makes it the best. (Other opinions are welcome, I've just wanted a reason to say this)

[@JazzyWaffles]

31:00 I don't think Bonnie changed her mind because Clara MADE her do it. I think the implication is that, without Clara there, she wouldn't listen to a thing the Doctor said (see: the Master in the Series 12 finale).

[@tbcDavben]

This was the episode Capaldi became my GOAT- Heaven Sent and majority of Season 10 just further cemented it. The story will age extremely well with time imo.

[@barry1369]

During the speech at the end I found an answer to a question I’d been debating in my head for years. Who’s the best doctor. Tom or Troughton? The answer was neither. It’s Capaldi.

[@Read-alert]

It has admittedly been a few years since I've rewatched it so I could be wrong about how it presents the issue, but I remember having a distaste for the way the story handles assimilating into new cultures. The idea that the "good" Zygons being the ones who want to disappear completely into humanity and erase their own history and culture and the "bad" ones being the ones who want to be seen and proud as Zygons feels... underexplored if nothing else. But otherwise, yeah, some of Capaldi and Coleman's finest work, and it really makes the episode stand out

[@Sillimant_]

Good - respect the culture of their new home Bad - arrogantly flout the rules and culture of their new home It's not that complex. When in rome, do as the romans

[@gaynarchist]

It also feels very on-brand for a british television show. I've never particularly liked this episode because of its takes on this and some other subjects that feels....particularly not great. Its not as overtly bad as "the doctor roots for space amazon" but still.

[@The_B1shop]

The zygon inversion is one of my all-time favorite episodes just for the doctors war speech alone, one of my most treasured moments in tv in general.

[@forrestlin9590]

Now, just imagine revisiting this two-parter on 16th October 2023…

[@flo4223]

I loved this episode for 2 reasons: 1, the war themes and anti-war speech were brilliantly executed by all and it was super touching, and 2, I had a hella crush on Bonnie (don't judge me, I was a teenager going through me 'I just think they're neat' phase for any slightly evil women)

[@leacwm]

incredibly justified for both

[@flo4223]

@@leacwm thanks fam

[@scrunkore]

I think a lot of people would admit bonnie was kinda hot tbh

[@DanteTCW]

These episodes are great and everyone in them really give a tour de force as actors. When Kate Lethbridge-Stewart closes the box she has the look on her face (props to actress Jemma Redgrave for her performance) that tells me she let the screams of the victims in for a second and decided that she couldn't bare to be the cause of that much suffering. The look on her face afterwards is sadness mixed with disgust at how she could even think of pressing the buttom, I love Capaldi as the doctor and I love this episode.

[@TheEarthquake1001]

This is my favorite Peter Capaldi episode. That war speech gives me goosebumps. Its so well written, but Capaldi's absolutely amazing preformance is what truly sells it

[@Bacbi]

Maybe I'm wrong but when the doctor said that this has happened 15 times and that it was the longest month of his life. I assumed that he had actually been at this for a month to get this result. Even if the last part isn't true and just meant it figuratively which does make more sense. And they just went through the scale model exercise 15 times, he would still have had to wipe Clara too because if Clara remembered then Bonnie would too.

[@suursuits7637]

People need to give Jenna Coleman more villain roles, she's so good at it here

[@PandanaJim]

Jenna Coleman is brilliant in the show, but in this episode inparticular. I genuinely forget that Bonnie is wearing Clara's face

[@mattevans4377]

Honestly, trying to connect the story to specific situations IRL actually dampens the story, makes it feel less important that it actually is. Because to me, it always came across as being against ALL self righteous groups, who think they are fighting the 'good' fight, and that can end up being anyone, even you and me. That to me is far more powerful and widespread than comparing it to just a single group.

[@jackmonaghan8477]

'The Silurians' from the Pertwee era was a very political episode. Doubly so when you factor in the fact it was written by Malcolm Hulke (a member of the UK Communist Party).

[@lucypreece7581]

I was watching Marvel's Secret Invasion the other month and like my first thought in the first episode was "this is very very similar to the Doctor Who Zygon two parter" and I don't know if that is a good or bad thing.

[@NotAgnor]

This is honestly one of my all time favourite episodes Comedy, direction, cinematography, acting, writing, atmosphere, design I LOVE it

[@Venemofthe888]

These episodes are the first ones I think of when people say doctor who wasn't political before jodies era of doctor who.

[@Sillimant_]

The difference is one doesn't smack you in the head with a frying pan

[@Venemofthe888]

@@Sillimant_ I mean this episode also essentially smacks you over the head with it too

[@epiccarrot88]

This episode isn't political. It deals with Zygons as essentially the same as people. No mention of an increased crime rate, or areas with Zygons being less safe to live in. As a result, you can't really equate it to the refugee crisis as this video insists. It's a story about the general fear of people who are different, not the learned (and, arguably, rational) fear of "if these people come here, the streets will be less safe for my wife and children". "Don't judge a book by its cover" is something most people nowadays agree with. The modern refugee crisis is more a case of "don't judge a library by its books": that the crime rate in areas that accept refugees inarguably increase, even if there are good people among them.

[@incognitoaccount7510]

​@@epiccarrot88did u make ur own copypasta for hating refugees

[@prestigepea1235]

Not the deepest point, but the Zygon "angry baby" redesign is really a step down from the original "sad baby" look. Also, the original Zygons needed to keep their human counterpart in some kind of coma. How do modern Zygons manage to take an identity?

[@leacwm]

this is explained in a 2009 8th doctor audio as them being able to hold onto one body print if they never turn back

[@jackaylward-williams9064]

I’m sorry, but those soldiers in Turmezistan are stupid, there’s no 2 ways about it. I understand why they’re not prepared to risk shooting their own family members, but why do they act like the only alternative is to follow them inside? All they had to do was order the zygons to all wait outside and leave a few of their number to guard them. I think it’s safe to say that if those had indeed been their relatives, then they would have had no inclination to attack the soldiers, so any attempt to do so would have immediately confirmed that they weren’t who they said they were, and we clearly see after the reveal that Kate survived that Zygons aren’t immune to bullets, so killing them later down the line wouldn’t have been difficult. Also, The Doctor specifically told them to leave as many zygons alive as possible, so why did they need to kill them at all if they weren’t posing an immediate threat?

[@wanyekest6969]

doctor who definitely the did the “skrull invasion” thing better than marvel did

[@ko379]

The Osgood shushing her doppleganger was always a great moment

[@laineydavis00]

Brb, going to go watch that speech for the nth time (this two parter is yet another example of why Capaldi is my favorite Doctor)

[@dougsfilmtv9810]

Good review! I really enjoyed this story and this story really felt like a leftover story from High School and when I first watched this story, I felt like I was in High School even though I was 5 months out of High School. I will admit I do like The Doctor's anti-war speech, and I feel like Peter Capaldi deserved an Emmy for that back then. I do like Osgood in this story and The Doctor and Osgood just connect very well in this story.

[@ajwarner1273]

amazingly well put together video once again keep it up harbo

[@AM-uo2kf]

That scene outside the church does feel rather chilling, you know they are Zygons and the fact the just immediately kill all the soldiers once inside is pretty messed up. But of course the doctor speech about war and how amazingly Capaldi plays it it’s just hard to not be gut wrenched

[@apanapandottir205]

I have such a crush on Bonnie. I just feel like I can fix her, you know?

[@badwolf66]

There is always hope, follow your dream.

[@apanapandottir205]

@@badwolf66 It's me and Shauna, never giving up hope.

[@daisywilliams2779]

Think its a great episode - also the two little girls who are Zygon high command are my cousins! I was v jealous as a long term Whovian!

[@thogthemighty7960]

I knew Secret Invasion felt familiar, but I couldn't place why until now.

[@rgreed20081]

Aliens do exist on Earth in the Doctor Who universe. Even when almost every being on Earth, the Doctor is seen as an Urban Legend. His status as an Urban Legend has a lot of truth as well as some myths.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

You do wonder where all these Aliens on Earth are though when it is getting invaded by other species.

[@lasseehrenreich5502]

A really amazing review. I'm happy that you are taking these real life horrible events apophatically serious

[@samphoenixoficial]

Cooool. this two-parter is my favourite out of the entirety of series 9. Potentially the entirety of Doctor Who.

[@Billyboi205]

The title change I see u Harbo >.> I see U

[@fredrickcampbell8198]

With the invasion of Ukraine, I remember the Doctor's "speech" at the button scene. Yeah, I think speech means prepared speech, which is why I put it in quotation marks.

[@backpackerraden6268]

In fairness, he had 15 times to refine what to say.

[@fredrickcampbell8198]

@@backpackerraden6268 Peter or the Doctor?

[@backpackerraden6268]

@@fredrickcampbell8198 The Doctor. Right before he mind wipes the room he says "well, you [Kate] have said that the last fifteen times"

[@fredrickcampbell8198]

@@backpackerraden6268 Well, I don't remember that part of the episode. Was my memory wiped too?

[@lucygodden7903]

The Alan partridge reference 🥲

[@CineScarborough]

The only thing that ruins this two parter are the utterly ridiculous Sonic Shades. I don't understand why you would give the Doctor a device that two stories ago was so easily broken. If they wanted to give him a different Sonic device to the Sonic Screwdriver, then it really should have been a Sonic Guitar.

[@aeloswindrunner]

The big speech is rightly praised, but part of its impact is as a result of the buildup from the episodes overall

[@iamliberator1101]

A well thought out deconstruction and commentary.

[@LadyTsunade777]

The Doctor's speech to Kate and Zygon-Clara at the end was such an incredible scene. Every bit of his speech was so on point. As much as I prefer my entertainment (of any variety - tv show, movie, video game, novel) to be an escape from reality and not politically/religiously preachy, this was just such an amazing scene. It fit so well, both into the situation and into the Doctor's character. I can never forget "SIT DOWN AND TALK"

[@JoshFortune-nb8wz]

Atleast it aint has political has one of 13s episodes

[@metalheadnick555]

Is it just me or is this what Secret Invasion should have been?

[@applecoreeater]

Zygon base is giving major mindflayer

[@darkermatter125.35]

I disagree that the doctor was showing sny kind of bias when he was trying to determine is Osgood was human or zygon. Due to the nature of the threat, and the fact that there is only one Osgood left, the nature of the revolution posed a threat to her in multiple ways. Which threats she faced were determined by which ine she was. The humsns, on the other hand, were very much showing a deep mistrust toward her. She is inherently very important when it comes to the peace treaty, and her being revealed as one or the other did put that at risk, depending on eho knew the truth. Whether or not the doctor knowing would have done that is something that could be debated, because he wants to preserve peace either way. I also think it is important to consider that revolutions generally have some validity. They are often based in some form of suffering or pain or percieved injustice. To feel that you can only feel safe if you hide who/what you are is a suffocating way to live. But causing the suffering of other humans, especially when it is not their fault, or other zygones when they are happy with how things are, is obviously not the answer. It is particularly devastating when, inevitably, no matter how much pain and death is caused, you end up in the same place you started. You have to come to the table and negotiate some form of peace. There will also be groups that want change later on and it will be a cycle if it is born from violence that was initiated by a group that suffered due to your actions that they did not believe in. That is what causes the cycle of violence. You cannot place every revolution under the same umbrella, in my opinion, even those that do end up with a cycle that is descibed. For example, the many countries that were violently colonized by superpowers and had their revolutions for independence, a revolution to rid their countries of violent dictatorships/other oppresive governments. It usually does not end after one, but the formation of a new country is hard. Finding a fair system when your country has spent decades in poverty and ruled by predatory practices are rarely fixed in one try. People are not perfect. Not to mention how the doctor brings up that this has happened 15 times before. Clearly he knows a revolution should not be stopped through violence, but by bringing everyone to negotiations before all of the death and destruction forces them there. Which he knows from his own experiences, but it takes both sides to have them end up in the same place that many times. It is something we have seen multiple times in the past few years, with countries pushing for peace talks and ceasefires in multiple ways, only for countries with larger militaries to ignore them. I will admit I am no expert on Doctor Who. I was very sheltered growing up, and I was raised in a cult. I was presented with a very warped perception of the outside world and a very racist, xenophobic, homophobic, all the hateful views people who were not the same as what the cult wanted me to be. But, while I didn't know much about what was out there, the small glimpses I caught made the arguments dubious at best. I have to work a lot to educate myself on all of the gaps in my education and the experiences of people from other countries and situations, learning about the fucked up past of my government, and also catch up on all of the media I was not allowed to view, considering I started with a baseline of edited Disney movies. I had to hide a lot for the majority of my life, and still have to when I deal with my family, as certain aspects of myself would be met with even more hatred than I am met with now. I also have had to physically fight for my survival (not in a war setting). There are so many different people whose lives I couldn't have even created in my imagination that exist in the real world, and it takes work to learn to expand your mind in that way (and reprogram yourself). But you do end up being able to place yourself in the shoes of even imaginary beings once you have done it enough.

[@techniqueswithtodd]

This is one of my fave eps. Great story.

[@Ghargr18]

I don’t like how he explicitly says ‘the last 15 times’. It’s been, what, three years? Let’s say four years generously since DotD - so they independently get to the point to trying to wipe each other out and the entire conflict plays out every THREE MONTHS??

[@mayotango1317]

Yes, this is what Marvel's Secret Invasion tried and failed to be.

[@samwitherington8202]

Two episodes of this show does Secret Invasion better than the Secret Invasion show

[@talesofawhovian9690]

And don’t forget these two episodes only had a budget of around 2 million, while “Secret Invasion” infamously had a budget of *211.6 million* .

[@bloctorflux3566]

The Target book is pretty good

[@joringedamke5597]

One almost wants a crossover with SOMA...

[@stevencrighton6890]

How didn't I realise that nicola Murray from the thick of it was in this episode. I am ashamed 😞

[@robertbrookes2000]

Been a while since I watched the episodes, but I still know they're about three hundred times better than the Marvel Secret Invasion show.

[@doctoromega009]

Better than MCUs Secret Invasion

[@badwolf66]

This story was the demise of UNIT until it's true return in 2022.

[@crazywhofan6676]

It's a great episode, but it's no more political than the time the Seventh Doctor fought Margret Thratcher.

[@william2496]

So much better than Secret Wars!

[@fortunespam2858]

More like the entire 13 doctor teneir

[@tyzongiillmore5929]

This is what Disney+ Secret Invasion tried to be

[@SebTheNoob314]

1:18 umm actually... in terms of televised episodes Trial of a Time Lord is the "biggest" (Unless for some reason you count the Key to Time). Or... it's Thie Five Doctors - at 90 minutes long

[@cartoonkelly7924]

Imposters among us huh? Sounds sus if you ask me. But if you need to vent about it.

[@tkic3164]

I wrote a paper in college around these episodes. We had been reading a book on America's immigration crisis along the Southern Border, which was really biased on the immigrants' side. At one point it talks about what it calls the "Area of Exception," essentially another term for othering and making the immigrants' lives expendable. The paper was about that term and what could be done about it. Using these episodes, especially the final speech which I linked in the paper, I showed how the book was guilty of doing the same to the border patrol, local governments, etc. All it was doing was escalating the conflict for the author's own gain. The only true solution was to forgive and work together to account for both sides. I didn't have time to initially turn in the paper, so I turned in what I had. The professors were so intrigued that they gave me an extension to finish it, and it ended up being one of the few assignments I got a perfect grade on.

[@Maeve_Rose]

if it was my mom, i could. my mom has been dead for years now... and while it wouldn't feel good, i'd probably be more mad my mom's image was being used to manipulate me.

[@erubin100]

I would say the ONLY thing that hurts the argument for me is the same reason why X-men doesn't totally work as an allegory: IMMIGRANTS AND REFUGEES IN THE REAL WORLD DON'T HAVE SUPERPOWERS! I think the doctor and kate wanting to know if osgood is a zygon does kind of make sense, because a renegade zygon could easily take osgood's form and infiltrate them, or one of the "good" osgood zygons could turn on them any time by turning into someone else and they wouldn't know it.

[@ReddwarfIV]

I am surprised none of the UNIT soldiers got angry at the Zygons for pretending to be family members, before shooting them all out of spite. It's weird that they all reacted the same way.

[@cleverdunce7638]

doctor who in among us when?

[@VuddyProductions]

w video my good sir

[@Redboots]

it's also real apparent that truth or consequences was based off isis/whichever name was applicable at the time, since iirc that group changed names a lot. personally I would more describe the story as a political commentary on the political situation at the time rather than specifically anti-war, because whilst it does have anti-war elements it more focuses on the fear that there may be bad actors within a group of refugees, and then rightfully it points out that those exact attitudes drive people to extremism, as well as other general bigotry towards traits of that group such as in this case the fact a large majority of syrian refugees are muslim, which iirc wasn't the most popular position to hold. however, despite how well I think the story handled its premise, I feel like it is propped up by that speech. I'm not saying it's only good because of that, since it is a genuinely great story, but I feel like if the speech wasn't there the story would feel a lot more of a 'this topic is relevant; let's do that!' type of deal.

[@deceo2119]

It's definitely the one with Trump man, right?

[@nairrdlairrd]

Marvel’s Secret Invasion wanted to be this two-parter.

[@charchar635]

Oh look it's secret invasion but not shit

[@josgibbons6777]

Come on, there are loads of stories at least as political as this one, especially in classic Who.

[@ThyLfz]

Guys, I think he thinks this is Doctor Who's Most Powerful Anti-War Message, referring to the fact that this is Doctor Who's Most Powerful Anti-War Message. ecause this is Doctor Who's Most Powerful Anti-War Message. I cant believe this is Doctor Who's Most Powerful Anti-War Message!

[@epiccarrot88]

This episode isn't political. It deals with Zygons as essentially the same as people. No mention of an increased crime rate, or areas with Zygons being less safe to live in. As a result, you can't really equate it to the refugee crisis as this video insists. It's a story about the general fear of people who are different, not the learned (and, arguably, rational) fear of "if these people come here, the streets will be less safe for my wife and children". "Don't judge a book by its cover" is something most people nowadays agree with. The modern refugee crisis is more a case of "don't judge a library by its books": that the crime rate in areas that accept refugees inarguably increase, even if there are good people among them.

[@Terriblyawfulshows]

Amogus

[@NomonyRNT]

yeah but communist russia did do that. so uh

[@velocidellix]

That moment when Doctor Who did Secret Invasion better than Marvel 😐

[@jessicastrike5640]

The story the MCU Secret Invasion wishes it could have been

[@lonewolf9578]

At least this story had some set up

[@PickyPaige]

Sadly this 2-parter has been somewhat ruined for me since I realized what the Doctor is saying in his speech! He completely ignores all the mistreatment that many of the Zygons have suffered and frankly the episode didn't really show us any, to form our own opinions so we need to take Bonnie at her word. The Doctor, basically brushes all her issues off, with a simple "So what?" and doesn't even try to criticize the humans for their oppression of the Zygons! On paper the Doctor's sentiment of war is bad and it must be avoided at all cost is a completely correct one that I fully agree with it, but in reality what his speech also means is that, as a minority no matter how oppressed you might be, it's always unequivocally morally wrong to fight back against your oppressors! And in the real world we can clearly see in the Russian Invasion of Ukraine, how sometimes, hell a lot of the times, there is no arguing or peace talking with the oppressors, because they want it all or they are not arguing in good faith, so the only thing left is appeasement or surrender, which I vehemently disagree with! It's a weirdly conservative take, for a supposedly progressive show!

[@R.senals_Arsenal]

I don't see it as conservative at all. The Doctor brushes aside her excuses because they aren't presented as reasons, but just excuses. And even if there were valid reasons, there is nothing that can justify what she intends. It isn't that all wars are bad or you should never defend yourself against an aggressor, it is HIGHLY situational. And Cyclical. The Doctor is no pacifist, but he knows the outcomes and he is trying to talk down the aggressors with truth and consequences. If we could get The Doctor into a room with Putin maybe after a few dozen rewinds he could talk him down too, I mean, he IS the Doctor, but sadly the Doctor isn't real, and Putin is an egomaniac. And the situation, here we go with it being highly situational again, is totally different because Kate is not a good stand-in for Zelensky because she's got an aggressive possibility too, and Ukraine is just begging to survive and thrive.

[@JohnFromAccounting]

The Doctor was very clear that talking is the way to solve a crisis, not bloodshed. I don't know how you had such a bad read of these episodes.

[@cameronjosephvideos5942]

Have the Zygons really been mistreated though? We don't really see much evidence of that, even Bonnie's allegations seem very weak. Her argument is they deserve the right to appear as themselves, a request that would lead to absolute chaos knowing how humanity is, and that they were left to fend for themselves as if humanity somehow owes them further accommodation. Humanity offered them a place on a planet that owes them nothing after they came looking to conquer. Humanity already got the short end of the stick in that deal. All we do get is a vague, we've been treated like cattle, but that's an extremely vague accusation that doesn't seem to refer to anything. Sure, it could be worse than we see but there's nothing to suggest that. What it actually looks like is humanity graciously offered asylum to a people who tried to invade them, then didn't just bend over when the Zygons started making more demands.

[@PickyPaige]

@@cameronjosephvideos5942 That's what I'm saying! The episode doesn't give us any scene that shows them being mistreated, but I don't think it's fair to assume that they haven't been mistreated! Yeah, but that is a conservative opinion! Who the fuck cares what the humans would think? People and in this case the ZYGONS have the right to be themselves without fearing repression by the humans because their feelings got hurt by the sheer existence of an alien! The Doctor not taking this issue seriously basically him agreing with the conservative viewpoint of conformism, be it that refugees should fully assimilate or you could even say that he supports people who harass others for outwardly showing their LGBT! Yeah the episode should've done more to show us the situation that the Zygons are facing and let us make our own mind about whether their actions are justified on some level or not but it didn't and that makes the episode less than ideal! There is also nothing to suggest that it's not, you say it yourself, we know how humans are when it comes to our own species let alone aliens!

[@R.senals_Arsenal]

Actually,@@cameronjosephvideos5942, humanity didn't offer anything. UNIT made a deal and kept humanity in the dark. 😅 We have all pre-judged humanity before giving them the opportunity to be prejudiced against the Zygons. I mean, we all know they would be, but that is my own prejudice against humanity, my strong belief that a good bit of it would not act in a "humane" fashion. But as to if they've been mistreated I would say yes and no. Overtly, probably not, but tacitly they are being made to hold human form and "stay in the closet," which is highly problematic. There are probably some council housing issues too. They agreed to it and a deal's a deal, but still not ideal for them and I can see how it would inevitably lead to unrest. Yes, UNIT on behalf of humanity has been gracious, but they're still imposing a demand that is unsustainable in the long term. But that's not really the Doctor's focus, he's always about the short term stopping of people killing each other, then walks off and lets humanity sort out the politics of it.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

I don't enjoy the Zygon, I think they dragged down The day of the Doctor quite a lot, where unneeded in the episode and served no real connection or purpose. And to be honest in this episode I did not like them either, never was a fan of shaping shift and guessing who is the real one who is the imposter. It's a great speech wasted on such a meh monster and episode. And I could not feel sorry for the Zygon fully because most of them did just sit around and allow the extremists to keep pushing to invading the Earth and are infiltrating it on purpose to take over. Some are even replacing people, taking on their lives which is creepy to me. Why Can't they just go to another world where there are no Humans, and this whole idea the world is full of Zygon is never mentioned again at all in future stories, even when Earth is invaded or under attack we never see the Zygon resist it at all, like when the Cybermen come around or The Daleks again?

[@mayotango1317]

You must watch the original Terror of the Zygons.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

@@mayotango1317 Don't they try to take over Earth in that as well. So them being good guys really does not well as well either then. And it does not change my point though I think they're not really that interesting a villain. Never should have been in the day of the Doctor episode either.

[@johnphamlore8073]

Imagine watching a Star Trek episode that is the best ever written, by someone the class of a Harlan Ellison, only at the end, the captain concludes that there will never be peace between the Federation and a near-peer planet, ordering the Enterprise to sterilize the surface to eliminate a competitor. But it's the best written episode ever, which The Zygon Invason / Inversion were not. Wouldn't you be shocked that the producers decided to foist on the audience a Mirror Universe episode, and that a line had been crossed that could endanger the show? Well that is exactly what I thought when I saw Zygon Invasion / Inversion, and that day I knew that viewership was going to plunge into the floor and that the show was going to eventually have to do something drastic to try and revive itself. I knew that was a series killing set of episodes. Rewatch most of Doctor Who, I dare you. What is the actual nature of evil in most of Doctor Who? I contend the show's stated nature of evil, from Ian in The Daleks, is that evil is instrumentality, the concealment of motives and information to manipulate someone to do something that can only harm them to benefit you. As Ian battles morally and wins with the Doctor: "Now listen, you two. What victory are you going to show these people when most of them have been killed? A fluid link? Is this what you're going to hold up to them and say, 'Thank you very much. This is what you fought and died for'?" The Doctor this one time thinks it's just fine the truth should be concealed from an entire people because revealing it might be inconvenient, the exact opposite of his stance the entire rest of the show. I am going to assert anyone who likes The Zygon Invasion / Inversion is not a fan of Doctor Who the show. Because for this ending, the Doctor embraces instrumentality, celebrates it, proclaims it is the answer. And then the show instantly immolated itself. The Zygons are invaders. Not only that, but in Terror of the Zygons, the Zygons state they need to drastically terraform the Earth just to make it comfortable for them. They want to heat it up. Really, the planet the Zygons should want, if only someone had the power, is not Earth, but Gallifrey. And the Doctor does have the power as was shown later that very season to make that happen. And it would be the just outcome, because Gallifrey started the Time War that blew up the Zygons' planet in the first place. You dare to criticize the Timeless Children when this is the set of episodes that basically set in motion the direction of the show that led to the Timeless Children? The sign of an episode that isn't moral is when viewers look at themselves in the mirror and pat themselves on the back, with no need to change. And that's all I hear from those who like The Zygon Inversion / Invasion, that others in real life are the problem, and they have nothing to fix, nothing to be ashamed of. When in reality anyone who thinks that this should be challenged by real fiction, such as what Doctor Who the show used to be. What these episodes really said is that the little people, us, need to be shoved aside, even killed, because they're too stupid to be able to cooperate in making a good decision on how to run their lives. You really want to support fiction that says this? Not my Doctor Who.