Is This Even Music? John Cage, Schoenberg and Outsider Artists

[@NahreSol]

For those of you who are curious about how EXACTLY L.A. and I interpreted "SOUND FIELD," here is the overly specific answer: L.A. used a lot of shape-based interpretation of each letter with his phrasing, dynamics, and sound. I think he relied on geometric direction to guide how he interpreted each part of the letters. For my part (FIELD), I used pitches F and D, and interpreted the I as a cluster (on the score, a cluster looks like an I). I repeated ideas in 3 a lot because of how the E has three horizontal lines. And I also used minor thirds because the L has a 90 degree angle, which is 1/4 of 360 degrees. Based on that I divided an octave into quarters, which gives you a minor third. I used prepared piano/extended techniques as a tribute to Cage and other composers mentioned. Thanks for watching the episode!

[@Sam-cv6un]

Very nice! I always think these kind of hyper-specific representations of a certain idea are really cool because they give a window into how the person (or persons, in this case) actually think about and interpret what they perceive. Thanks for sharing. :)

[@splashesin8]

😊

[@raoulvanherpen9620]

this would work definitely work as composition! Like what I heard, tnx

[@benhavey4107]

Great episode yet again! I wish you talked a bit about how Schoenberg saw himself as CONTINUING the Romantic tradition of Beethoven through Mahler (as opposed to Cage who was breaking away from tradition purposefully). While his harmonic language is new his rhythms/sense of drama/formal structures are firmly in classical traditions.

[@jeffMinnesota952]

so can we hear it?

[@wellurban]

My favourite John Cage quote is “music never stops, only the listening”. Not only does it re-centre listening as a creative act, it helps bypass the usually unproductive question of “is this even music?!” and get to more insightful questions like “if we pay attention to this as music, what can we learn and feel?” One slight quibble: by Schoenberg’s time, classical audiences would have been aware of music that had already moved a long way beyond Mozart’s tonality. Brahms, Liszt, Debussy and Wagner had started to leave older ideas of tonality behind, and Stravinsky was going further. True 12-tone serialism was still massively shocking, but not nearly so much as it would’ve been in Mozart’s time!

[@dr.rebuttal3009]

How in the world is it music?

[@dr.rebuttal3009]

Really tell me what am I missing here? In one video he just clicks the timer and opens and closes a tiny egg shaped box a few times. Where is the art or the tune, the melody, the effort, the performance, the appeal, the cadence, anything. It is just daily noise you hear. How is a truck engine not music?

[@segmentsAndCurves]

@@dr.rebuttal3009 My man ask the real question here.

[@dr.rebuttal3009]

@@segmentsAndCurves which real question?

[@segmentsAndCurves]

@@dr.rebuttal3009 The last question in that comment.

[@PfhorShark]

I friend of mine who did a dissertation on John Cage told me that I talk like he did. Ever since then, the water walk has made SO much sense to me. I find myself cooking, washing, and drying up like him walking around a stage with the stopwatch. He wants everyone to just chill out and stop having expectations of anything. Those psychedelic drugs, man.

[@lonelykid7691]

John Cage is the man who saved my life and sparked the musical endeavor I'm currently on.

[@TheNativeEngine]

Cool!

[@MreenalMams]

Same here..

[@vrai3078]

I started the VRAI project around a year ago(which is what my channel is) and is basically an art project I use to practice composing (so expect alot of half baked ideas lol),but it is very helpful and provides a secondary output for my ideas without the pressure of well trimmed and refined compositions ,which I am constatly working towards.I actually started learning about music first with many experimental 20th century composers and only learned about classical music and western practice after the fact ,so appreciating experimental music almost comes natural to me.

[@dr.rebuttal3009]

How?

[@johndeer1866]

@@dr.rebuttal3009 4:33 of silence made him realize he is an idiot

[@Helaw0lf]

For those of us on autism spectrum, outsider music is not quite jarring at first listen. We might be weird at first but I feel that plays a role in what our tastes/interests are. My definition is music is universal, most things can be musical.

[@Kwijiboz]

0:45 Arnold Sch... *NO WAY* ...oenberg *oh, ok*

[@Superphilipp]

I don't get it.

[@chambeet]

Superphilipp I didn’t get it either haha.

[@dylanr4854]

Google Arnold Schwarznegger I guess

[@SlyHikari03]

Get to the choppa!

[@Timliu92]

What killed the dinosaurs? The Ice Age!

[@Trikeman728]

Whoa, never thought I'd see the day someone on the Internet discussed John Cage without bringing up (and usually exclusively focusing on) 4'33" 😂 Snark aside, y'all are making some really interesting and thought-provoking stuff here! Thanks for sharing with us all!

[@makucevich]

Good snark...But I like the fact that they skipped the obvious- Or maybe that's what you were saying in the first place ;)

[@makucevich]

@NEARMUSICBEATS Are you referring to 4'33"? It's Cage's most famous (or infamous) piece. 4 minutes and 33 seconds where the pianist plays nothing. It is a long (musical) rest.

[@emileconstance5851]

@Trikeman728, Good point, too often Cage's vast contributions to music are eclipsed by all the focus on 4'33".

[@ProcrastinatingGameCat]

I was looking for this comment. I wonder why they didn’t include it?

[@bwacuff169]

@@emileconstance5851 "Vast"? You seemed to be referring to Cage but used a phrase more appropriate for Walter Piston. Cage was a "composer" minus the first 3 letters.

[@abstractjak4301]

I agree with Edgar Varèse - "Music is organized sound."

[@abstractjak4301]

@FinnRiffs Official Channel Yes that is true. He and I discussed Varése one time.

[@abstractjak4301]

@FinnRiffs Official Channel Yes. When I lived in L.A. I was working a concert video of his. Spent several hours at his home. We talked about things (besides the project), things such as - music, the “Black Page”, great avant-garde composers, his studio that he was re-wiring and things like how the manuals to his new Synclavier are the size of two NY phone books. A demanding and very business like approach. I’m a composer/musician and I gotta tell you he can be one intimidating dude. Fun Fact: When he went upstairs for dinner he put on “Baby Snakes” for me to watch and asked Moon to bring me down a fresh cup of coffee.

[@bwacuff169]

It's more specific, Music is the purposeful creation and corralling of sound in meter. Of those 5 criteria, only the last is required for music to occur: meter. Without a beat, we do not recognize an attempt to communicate with music.

[@bwacuff169]

@@scran "Noise" can easily be musical....so long as it occurs within the context of a beat. Without a beat, the average person has no ability to frame the noise as music. It's the same problem Cages 4'33" has. Perform it as a solo vocal piece on a street corner and no one will have a clue you're attempting to make music. They'll just think you're standing there waiting for someone, or whatever. I fixed this with a variation a few years ago by adding the performance note "The intended audience must be given the opportunity to discern the beat, throughout." For the performance on the street corner, this could be accomplished by tapping your finger against your leg. Some of the people walking by will notice you're tapping your finger and most people seeing that would assume you're thinking about music - at which point you're both thinking about music and the ambient sound around you becomes part of the performance, which is what Cage intended but didn't pull off. And that can only happen because of the beat.

[@fatguy338]

@@bwacuff169 I really don't think meter is necessary. Plenty of music is written without any markings for tempo or ryhthm's. And much music has no discernable pulse. Say you were to listen to one of those soundscapes for sleeping, it's just a single chord that changes harmony and texture at arbitrary intervals, is that not music?

[@SuviTuuliAllan]

Why draw lines when you can draw dodecagons?

[@Sam-cv6un]

XD

[@jumpingeezus5080]

Suvi-Tuuli Allan Or dodechohedrons?

[@jumpingeezus5080]

Suvi-Tuuli Allan Or dodecahedrons.

[@IgorDz]

dogecoins

[@MreenalMams]

How about Dodecadragons

[@benarmeni3370]

Thanks for Discussing Cage's work and philosophy without just reducing him to 4'33"! Love the callback to Cage/Harrison with the ending as well.

[@esser7678]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/e37XiWCGbaqoe9k

[@setphaser]

oh you included the Shaggs, you are awesome. outsider music forever. for me outsider music is the opportunity to say screw all the rules, i don’t need to be a virtuoso, i just need ears and ideas. and that is very freeing creatively, it takes a lot of pressure off and can reintroduce the idea of “children’s play” back into the joy of making music, which is so important to creativity, but is often lost at the first hurdle of scales practice.

[@WarrenPostma]

Well ideas. Ears. Who needs ears.

[@Zer0Spinn]

My pal's name is foot foot (foot foot)

[@MreenalMams]

Who are parents..?

[@fatguy338]

@@MreenalMams i am parents!

[@jamesha175]

oh "where can my foot foot be?"

[@peterjurgens5968]

Yes, that's what I'm here for. XD (Not for Schönberg)

[@cnl1213]

Even this episode on outsider music is rather "outsider", not as palatable as say "how the Trap sound is formed" or "what makes a song sad." Way to challenge the status quo in music education! Onward and upward!

[@ShilohJanowick]

I love John Cage, his ideas on sound are just so beautiful and powerful

[@odradekfilms]

I make p comparatively conventional punk rock/electronic synth pop. But hearing Harry Partch, John Cage, Pierre Boulez, and Luc Ferrari changed the way I think about everything. “Pop” music loosely defined (as opposed to “art” music, jazz or modern classical) remains closest to my heart, but the techniques of dissonance and chance and textural bizarreness (for lack of a better term) of the avant-garde made me want to get serious about music in general. I also appreciate, side note, how you guys talk about Outsider music without the implicit condescension so many people use. People see outsider art like an amusing freak Show and treat the artists like crazy people or children. Anyway cant tell ya how helpful this vid is, esp for sharing to my musician friends who are skeptical about Cage and free jazz and all that

[@EmilioPortal]

I always remember this John Cage quote (total paraphrase): if something sounds bad, listen for another 30 seconds. if it still sounds bad, listen for another minute. if it still sounds bad, listen for 5 minutes. if it still doesn’t sit well, listen for 20.

[@karuna1936]

Interesting to note that Cage himself said that he would had never done what he did if he hadn't studied Zen buddhism. In fact, all his alternative compositional methods he created so it would have an effect in him simillar to meditation, that is, reducing the self-clinging that is what prevents us from being deeply happy.

[@marknason4572]

How perfect that today my favorite PBS Digital Series, Sound Field, mentions a band I've shared with everyone since my English teacher in high school first gave me a cassette of The Shaggs' Philosophy Of The World #mypalfootfoot. Keep up the great work Nahre & LA, love the series!

[@SoundFieldPBS]

we are so honored to be your favorite! wow. Also, huge fans of The Shaggs

[@grimmschmidt38]

....I love this channel so much. I mean. You HAD me at the invention of Funk, but now you're touching down on Outsider music and John Cage? I was fondly reminded of other times composers pushed the boundaries of what music was considered to be at the time, using nonstandard musical instruments. Mahler's 6th Symphony, Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture (with actual cannons) and Wagner's Forging Song from Siegfried come to mind. To say nothing of Moondog. You both have so much fun on these videos. Thank you for sharing them with us.

[@Icecoldhard]

Paused to say thank you guys for this. I know nothing about music but after listening to you guys I feel like an encyclopedia of music has poured into my brain one volume at a time. Thanks again.

[@SoundFieldPBS]

So glad to hear that, thank you for watching

[@samuelock]

I like the word my school (UMBC) described the category "outsider" music, as "new" music. If you think about it, most of the western-based music made by people today are still based off of the rules of traditional tonality. I like the idea that the 12-tone "scale" and pieces like 4:33 were "new" pursuits in the world of music, because they actually were trying to explore new territory. I used to have to listen to this kind of music multiple days every week but like Nahre said, it becomes something you learn to listen past and then you can actually hear what the composer is trying to say.

[@peterbrough2461]

Aaah, the sound of cracking knuckles, clicking fingernails, squeaking styrofoam, fork tines on rough china and fingernails on blackboards. The music that goes straight to the core of my being and cannot be ignored. 😱😁

[@ADpianist]

Amazinnnggg. Music students are so lucky to have these videos now. 🤩

[@twanswagten]

This video goes beyond my musical experiences I had in the paste related to music. This video definitely opened a a new door for me!

[@MissionMan]

I've had a lot of people refer to my music as outsider music. I've generally taken it as a compliment because that's how they've meant it. I'm definitely not as outsider as these artists, though. I've always just played what I thought sounded good, and wasn't concerned with scales, keys, etc. Most of that is because I'm self taught, though recently I've learned some theory and realized I already knew the theories just from playing around a lot. I just didn't know the terminology.

[@enricopersia4290]

Very cool! I love Nareh Sol and everything she puts her hands (and ears) on becomes wonderful

[@statikverse]

The amazing thing for me about this whole journey you guys take with this is the fact that you break down sound... not just music, or the culture or any other specific focus on the phenomenon of sound. You creatively not only package but also explore sound, as artists... Thank you so much for this.

[@samuelperezbenitez442]

Top quality videos and such an interesting approach with you two. So grateful ❤🙏🏼

[@zorzoridesagain]

Late to the party, but had to watch, and it was good to see so many heroes and musical breakthroughs talked about and experimented with in under ten minutes. Speaking of acquired taste, my entry to modern music was via Paul Griffiths' book "Modern Music" (before a later edition was renamed "Modern Music and After"), which placed Debussy at the starting gun in the final round and Schoenberg's twelve tone system as a bulwark against the ongoing dissolution of the classical music tradition he loved so much. The dissonance in the Tristan chord also churned up huge waves that seem to have never stopped - people still don't seem to know what exactly the thing is. A couple of personal favorites in the story that pre-date Schoenberg, each of which could fill a book (and has done, and plenty more).

[@hassanas-sabbagh6562]

I have the book but I haven't read it yet.

[@Sam-cv6un]

This episode was fantastic! Excellent job guys!!! Personally, I don't really have a boundary/definition for music. A lot of people disagree with me, for reasonable reasons, but I feel like any sound can be music in the right context. For me, it just depends whether I'm thinking about it that way. So I guess what I'm saying is that for me, music is really a state of perception than an actual tangible thing. If that's a bit too pretentious of an answer, I also like the "I know it when I hear it" definition, which makes music a pretty personal and subjective thing. People bring different perspectives to what they are listening to, so they hear it differently than one another. That's why I like thinking as music as purely subjective. Also, I think it makes the world more interesting to me. Ramblings aside, either one works for me. All I know for sure is that this channel is definitely doing a good job talking about whatever that weird thing called music is. :P

[@buddyrichable1]

When I first heard Bach as a young teenager back in the 60’s it sounded pretty far out at the time. After repeated listening, I had discovered a new world of music, same thing as the first time I heard Charlie Parker. Great music usually requires a learning curve until you start to love it. So my advice is to give any music a little time, and if after that you still don’t like it, move on. Frank Zappa isn’t going to appeal to everyone but if you finally get it, what a gift.

[@Autofill120]

7:30 this is what the expectation of creating anything should feel like. I love it when I know a huge mental/creative process needs to be resolved, or at least explored. Also, I'm so very glad I subscribed to one of the most rewarding channels. Keep doing what you're doing, best wishes from a pseudo-artist living in the border.

[@teako.reverse]

YES. JOHN CAGE. PUSH MUSIC TO ITS LIMITS.

[@lorendigiorgi]

Really enjoyed this episode. Being brought up with a classical piano background, I used to have a pretty distinct line between music and not-music, but that has faded over the years. I believe there is music anywhere and any time we care to listen to it.

[@bruno_diaz-39]

I love your videos! If you guys are feeling the crowd for video ideas, I'd love to see an episode dedicated to music like math rock

[@SoundFieldPBS]

Always looking for new episode ideas, keep em coming

[@G3Dem]

Ah yes! Sign me up!

[@setphaser]

yes i also really would love an education in mathrock, particularly how it developed into a band like deer hoof who had a whole other take again!

[@kimmy_future4265]

now y'all gotta get into noise

[@Helaw0lf]

Droneology next.

[@katsuura8179]

Another fascinating video! Couldn't ask for a better way to start off the day!

[@zacharytolbart5215]

My favorite avant garde artist is probably Scott Walker mainly how he started from a fairly well known pop career and decided in his later years to become this extremely brooding and experimental musician. Also very influential to Bowie. Another would be John Zorn

[@robertm2000]

"Each work of art ought to imply the standards by which it is to be judged." That has been my guiding principle for any sort of music or other art. And it means that there needs to be some kind of organizing idea at the forefront of the work.

[@Nicksloan91]

Henry Cowell with his tone clusters, Karlheinz Stockhausen with his spatial compositions, Steve Reich's pendulum music, Pierre Schaeffer's Musique Concrete, Varese, and the list could go on and on just for atonal/20th century avant garde not to mention outsider music. (definitely check out the outsider music wikipedia page if you haven't already) Definitely room for a part 2!

[@alvrayniralman8159]

Yep, there's room for a round 48 and more, 😁

[@MH-il1lk]

I studied 12 tone in my undergraduate studies but I think studying the modes would have been more valuable during that time. By the way, Bill Evans stated after studying so many 12 tone rows, he felt like he wasted time.

[@maxmatson1578]

All sound is music! Even Silence is music!

[@LiamFMmusic]

I'm a massive 'Cage' fan......Or anyone bold enough to brake from the traditional......'Different is always better than better'......Great watch, glad to have found your channel......Liam

[@tutatis96]

I think the essence of music is more in the intention than in the result itself. As long as it's made with sound aims to be beautiful in some way it's music. You can make music with random noises and make non-music playing the piano.

[@dotoleeforlee]

I appreciate this video that makes me keep thinking.

[@knasigboll]

The hardest music to digest I ever heard was by the legendary gerogerigegege. I still cna't quite wrap my head around it, but I love how it challenges my notion of music. I guess it's more of an experience.

[@Packbat]

I think when it comes to music vs. not music, I maybe want to define it backwards from the audience, instead of forwards from the work? Like, music is art that impacts us in the way that music impacts us - it is art which rewards you when you bring the skills to bear on it that you formed over a lifetime of listening to music. Like, as a listener to music, you learn to distinguish between consonances and dissonances, you learn to find regular patterns in the rhythm of performances and put what you are hearing in the context of these patterns, you learn to judge sounds as notes or rhythmic hits or extended noise with timbre - metaphorical color - and their relationships to each other in sound and time. You develop your perception of tempo and your perception of spans of time, opinions about how the progression of sound over time tells a story. You develop a family of skills. Music is sound being understood through the exercise of those skills, I think. ...and I think that makes the line between music and not music subjective, because the question is: can *this* listener understand what they are experiencing with their knowledge of music, or are they unable to? And because people approach the task of understanding music with different tools, different habits, different preconceptions, different past experiences, there will be space where "is this music?" becomes more and more ambiguous.

[@ChiffCharang]

Yes! Context is absolutely everything!

[@SoundFieldPBS]

Well put! There is also a point where the language we use to try to define or explain music limits us in many ways. What does the word music mean anyway? -Nahre

[@dr.rebuttal3009]

If passively defending a composition requires an essay, chances are it's not music. And if it is music then narrate to me why two and a half hour of back to back farting rabbit noise is not music. Why isn't chewing noise music? And if these are musical then so must be ASMR videos.

[@Packbat]

@@dr.rebuttal3009 If people are telling you that you're *required* to like John Cage, you have my permission to flip them the bird and walk away. But don't harass people for thinking it's cool stuff.

[@dr.rebuttal3009]

@@Packbat 1. I'm not harassing you. I didn't say one bad word or any disrespect. I am merely asking something. My manners might've been a little churlish I agree. 2. Nobody forced me to like this music. But, I am inquiring out of my own curiosity. I want to know why you think this is music and how it is different from say ASMR.

[@chambeet]

This channel rocks! Please never stop making these! Subscribed.

[@BluePi1313]

I see music as a language. Each genre has its own type of grammar and rules, and any different type of genre would sound like gibberish to those who do not understand it. Some genres are similar enough, like how spanish and portugese have similar words and structure, and how bossa and jazz have their own similarities. It's all just a way of conveying emotions and delivering an experience.

[@JuanRodriguezTV]

It’s honestly encouraging that people were weird/odd/different/misunderstood like this 6:13 back in 1960- take that mainstream society, you’ll never bring us down

[@Beryllahawk]

What a great way to explain modern art music. And I think you chose some truly excellent examples of the weird and wonderful art that pushes the edges of our ideas. For myself, I honestly feel that it's music if it gives YOU a message, a special feeling, if it does something for you if that makes sense. I listen to music sometimes to relax: I certainly would not choose Schoenberg for that purpose. Not because his work is "bad" or "not musical" but because his work demands attention, not relaxation. I appreciate music that demands attention and thought from its audience. Music that demands an adjustment of attitude, or direct interaction with the work, is fascinating. None of it can ever be the same twice! For a moment when you started talking about making music out of a sentence I thought you might end up with something similar to "It's Gonna Rain" by Steve Reich.

[@Kaneanite]

I describe music as a purposely planned arrangement of sounds designed to invoke feelings or thoughts. Without a plan the sounds are just noise, that's where i draw the line in what is music and what is not music. But i prefer the more traditional arrangement of sounds produced by traditional musical instruments.

[@Sam-cv6un]

But what about artists who are just jamming live? That has no intended arrangement yet most would call that music. Personally, I think your definition is a pretty good one but I disagree with it. A difference in opinion makes the world spicy though so thanks for sharing your thoughts. :D

[@Kaneanite]

@@Sam-cv6un I see your point about jam sessions being music and I agree it is music. Even if the artists don't necessarily have a plan of note arrangement there is still thought put into what is played, even if that thought is only seconds long it still there. I think jam sessions are done just for the enjoyment of music, so they invoke the feeling of joy. To conclude this comment I will just reiterate that jam sessions are indeed music.

[@Sam-cv6un]

@@Kaneanite Thank you for your response, that makes sense. :)

[@Yahntia]

So how about aleatoric music?

[@Kaneanite]

@@Yahntia I'm not familiar with aleatoric music, but I have just read the wiki about it. It does seem like the composer has a general plan for what is to be played, but they leave some things up to random chance to make the piece unique. So I think that fits in my definition of music.

[@Kosmic_fire]

I can totally understand why Schoenberg would be disliked, even hated, but goddamn I think he’s brilliant. His methods and theories were genius and much of my favorite music would not exist without such innovation

[@feloniousfisch7824]

This has to be my new favorite channel!

[@SoundFieldPBS]

Glad you found us!

[@rockinbobokkin7831]

Your intro of setting up a question of paradigm is a great way to begin a subject like this. Very cool.

[@aznargo]

I love how John Cage continues - and will continue - to troll the world of music for generations. The man truly thought of music as something beyond our own perceptions.

[@yankeedyehard]

This morning I was listening to Howard Stern on the radio and he was interviewing Paul Mcartney, who mentioned John Cage as an influence when they were getting ready to record the Sgt. Pepper’s album. I was introduced to the “music” of Cage, just a few weeks ago, so I recognized the name, which lead me here. I’ve always been a fan of avant-garde music, like Capt. Beefheart and Frank Zappa, however I now realize that’s not really avant-garde music to the extremes discussed in this video.

[@therealjohngalaxy]

I hoped the video would go on. It ends kind of abruptly...... But love the subject! ❤️❤️❤️

[@Ngasii]

I am not one to judge. As a Master's stduent in music I've learnt that anything can be music to someone and am trying to prove this with my reseaech of a genre that took my home of South Africa by storm admits people outside of its culture deeming it "noise".

[@controcalciomoderno635]

Die Antwoord / Zef music?

[@philippfromme9427]

Perfect episode! I just finished reading "The Rest is Noise".

[@templemu]

With synths, especially software based, you can go through a bunch of presets and just be inspired to create music using just the one synth sound; exploring how the characteristics change over the register, like being given a Libretto and you have to write the music for it. A recommended exercise, especially in improv.

[@u_mrmcmisdemeanor]

I've been listening to the Shaggs literally all week... not expecting to see them in this video. This has to be the universe manifesting/telling me something lol. Wish I had the money to buy one of those Avalon guitars... one day...

[@MisterNiles]

Irwin! I love that guy! That was a nice surprise. Harry Partch and The Shaggs in the same video. Thanks for the great video. I finally got Schoenberg after many attempts... over more than three decades. I put on a performance of an LP of Pierrot Lunaire I was planning on selling on eBay, because I hated it so much... and it just clicked. Finally. Too bad. The LP was getting $40. It's not leaving the house now.

[@SubinKimBTS]

The contents are great indeed but I was surprised by the production. Obviously Nahre and LA are not together in the same place through this whole episode but the team managed to make it not awkward at all. A work of very efficient and effective production.

[@GameFiasco]

My new fav channel

[@AlphaHealthYT]

I absolutely love this show!

[@robotjack2193]

When I was in the eighth grade, I had a particularly badass band director. He gave us this definition of music. "The organization of sound and silence in time." He gave us that definition simply to stress the importance of rests to a group of young, green music students. I have stood by this definition ever since. It clarified my own view of what music is. And, personally, I feel that this is the most accurate definition I have heard, or that I will ever hear. Because it leaves open all possibilities for how music could be interpreted in the future. It would seem to me that the single sticking point, if there is one, would come down to music necessarily being sound, i.e. vibrations of a medium like air that falls in the range that can be perceived by the ear or by something analogous to it. On that point, I can't see any way around or outside of it. However, I can imagine there being future technology that we could not currently conceive of that might allow for a new vision of what music can be. Who knows? That band director is no longer with us, sadly. I miss him and will miss him the rest of my days.

[@SoundFieldPBS]

You were lucky to spend time with a badass band director! Thanks for sharing your definition.

[@Kieselwyrm]

I think you can listen to everything in a musical kind of way. What other is silence than a big long rest? You can find music in language, nature and thought.

[@SoundFieldPBS]

Yes agreed

[@HTDel]

Have you read silence by John Cage?

[@efkastner]

Awesome episode as always! My outsider recommendation for people scrolling through the comments is Jandek.

[@Bati_]

Erik Kastner Thank you for sharing!

[@peckish_tooth6515]

I went through a life period where I became interested in an artist not because of their work, but because of a quote from them... Or because of something they had done other than musical works. Or maybe what someone else had said or done following the same criteria. Miles Davis, Enya, Bjork, Worrytrain, Thomas Bergersen/Two Steps From Hell, NIN, Einsturzende Neubauten, Sarah Brightman... I could go on and on... AND John Cage.

[@gsamsa]

Captain beefheart, merzbow, aksak Maboul, anyone?

[@ferouihamza]

yeah i was waiting for a mention of captain beefheart or at least frank zappa

[@dr.christopherdiaz4473]

I understand this completely. I think a lot of people confuse the concept of music with the concept of tonal harmony. While we tend to think of tonal harmony as mundane, there was a time when the concept of polyphony was radical compared to the monophonic church music of the time. I tend to think we are in between paradigms, right now in 2019, and have been for some time. We are still looking for that next step in the evolution of sonic organization. Cage, Schoenberg, and others like them (Xenakis is my personal favorite) were looking for that next form of aesthetic. While they ultimately failed, they made discoveries that are very important with regards to modern day music composition or record production, as it is more commonly called. Columbus failed in getting to India, but he incidentally discovered something else. These guys failed at finding something as communicative as tonal harmony, but they did make other discoveries that are very relevant to how DAWs work and the art of making records.

[@common-girl]

I would love to hear your opinion on ambient music, would you consider it music? long range sustaining tones that don't end for 20 min.

[@ryan.1990]

Definitely. Some of the best ambient takes time to appreciate, it's still music, just moving very slowly

[@Xankill3r]

That last bit about outsider music sounds so apt! I definitely have experienced this at two extremes of metal music. On the one hand there is ambient and drone from bands like Sunn O))) , that takes some cues from John Cage with use of noise, and on the other there is the almost complete chaos and dissonance of some technical death metal bands like Portal. In my own case I would say that there was a process of slow acclimatization. I don't remember liking Sunn O))) or Portal on my first listen. Then I heard particular songs/albums that were more approachable - Kannon by Sunn O))) and the songs Curtain and Werships by Portal. Same pattern with Gorguts. Got into them via Colors of Sand (fairly approachable for someone familiar with technical metal) and now I can "find the music" in their song Obscura.

[@SoundFieldPBS]

This is an awesome comparison! Thanks for your thoughts

[@rylyss7836]

omg. i'm so happy to find this channel.

[@paxwallacejazz]

It must be pointed out that Schoenberg didn't happen in a vacume!! He was a tonal master and his texts like " Structural Functions of Tonal Harmony " was used by Gary Peacock when I studied theory with him. The entire trajectory of post tempered European Art Music from Bach to Schoenberg/Stravinsky was a high speed composer driven power dive into higher and higher levels of chromatic density expressed both horizontally and vertically untill it became impossible to continue in that same fashion without expanding/abandoning tonality. Bernstein calls this the [20th century crisis]. It also happened more or less in parallel in the Arts in general.

[@jeremysale1385]

I love this!!! It's amazing to me how much music mirrors other art forms; how you can trace the schools that influence visual art in trends across music and architecture and philosophy - and how much those things, together, relate to shifts in cultural narratives. I feel like the wide upheavals in the philosophy of morality that were partially a rejection of stifling 50's conformity culture, the ones that showed up in abstract expressionism in the visual arts, were underrepresented in music - partly because it's a more monetized artform, but also because people just enjoy pleasant sounds regardless of where they fit in the zeitgeist. Successful auditory artists thus had a much higher bar for 'pleasantness' than other forms, except on the very extreme outskirts. So interesting to see outsider music more eclectic than, say, the Violent Femmes.

[@ionescuflorin7307]

Bebop and especially free jazz were basically abstract expressionism in sonic form

[@charlesfrempong-longdonjr.5045]

Your videos are always so fire! They always really challenge my biases and encourage me to explore genres of music I just had no clue about before!! I'm absolutely blown away that Nahre & LA can make so many quality original tracks that are outside of their comfort zone. That shit sounds so fun!

[@SoundFieldPBS]

Thanks for watching Charles. Much love fam

[@e.k.6859]

This is such great content! Love this channel :)

[@bitegoatie]

Good one - thank you. Creation and vision make the art. The sounds provide the vessel, the embodiment and realization that carries the experience through time to bring a feeling, message, atmosphere, or moment to the audience and into reimagination and memory.

[@Strothy2]

another day another Sound Field video...! love it!

[@matttucker3]

Amazing stuff guys you two absolutely killin it man!!!

[@SoundFieldPBS]

Thanks Matt =!

[@FloridaManMatty]

I’d encourage anyone interested in outsider music to explore the Conlon Nancarrow studies for player piano. Study 21 is a superb place to start, especially for people with auditory synesthesia. Nancarrow worked with the idea that scales could apply to pitch AND tempo, which led to some incredible pieces that can be hard to listen to at first. But once you understand what he was aiming for, it really does become just as “musical” as anything else that typically falls under that heading.

[@asherperkinsmusic2767]

This was super cool. Y'all should definitely look into Eleanor Hovda. I would love to see a video on her approach to using extended techniques across the ensembles.

[@davidduque738]

I needed this channel to raise my music intellect! Thanks

[@friendofbeaver6636]

I never thought I'd see Schoenberg and The Shaggs mentioned in the same video. Great job!

[@SoundFieldPBS]

haha not everyone appreciates it like you did friendofbeaver

[@friendofbeaver6636]

@@SoundFieldPBS I have fairly broad taste in music. Dr. Jeffrey Mumford, renowned serial composer, presents a "Signature" concert series (free admission) nearby. I see live performances of his compositions and other "new music" composers performed by incredible musicians several times a year. I'm lucky!

[@eliranmal]

i empathize with so much said here.. when i first heard my life-changing outsider music (autechre, some 20 years ago), the first thought on my mind was - "is this music?", but i had so much curiosity at the same time, i had to have more! eventually they sustained as my favorite artists, up until today :)

[@hassanas-sabbagh6562]

Autechre are not really outsider music; they're indie electronic music super stars.

[@LendallPitts]

The great divide in contemporary classical music is between New Complexity (exemplified by Brian Ferneyhough) and Pop Minimalism (exemplified by Phillip Glass). I identify strongly with the former and not at all with the latter. This is both a matter of personal taste (I dislike repetition in all creative media) and of my belief that classical music needs to have its own space and to continuously develop its own audience rather than attempting to poach listeners from the pop music universe, which is the project of the Minimalist composers.

[@RaymondRAYCE]

Damn. So much respect for this content. Helping me make sense of Sociology of Music at CSUCI. God bless y'all.

[@shanmango]

So this is what style of music Ross Geller was pioneering

[@bakedutah8411]

Electrifying....infinite time (time (time (time...))) ...⏱⏰⏱...☝🏻...🧘🏻‍♂️

[@tumbleddry2887]

LOVE this channel (and both of it's hosts!)....I'm "musically-curious". Although I do play the guitar well enough, I don't have a formal music education....but this kind of outside musical theory just fascinates me (I am a big Bowie and Brain Eno fan as well)...thank you so much for bringing it "out"

[@PannenbergMusic]

I formulated everything I have to say about what defines music in a comment I made a few days ago: "Time doesn't need to have a specific structure, even thought it is always structured by itself Time is always co-existing with sound, at least in an environment which has living of some sort... Because in a living or mechanical environment, there is sound produced by everything... It doesn't even need to be anything we would notice A small blow of the wind could be considered sound. And sound is the unstructured form of music, while what we consider to be music is the structure we give the unstructured. If you'd try to do photography in music, you'd have to use the sound it is made of, not the music that is produced with it." So there is a deep connection between Time -> Sound Music Whilst Sound is created and perceived over Time and is - at the same time - the unstructured form of Music, while what we consider music is the structure we give to the unstructured... So, actually: Sound is music and music is sound And rhythm is just the expressed form of time being divided into fragments, certain or uncertain doesn't matter for a rhythm being a rhythm. Each sound that has a certain time-fragment would then apply to a rhythm or a group of sounds to form the division of time.

[@Tenon96]

Brilliant show!

[@noomra]

Wow, loved this video! Great job! I'm inspired!

[@edwardburner2721]

some of this reminds me the band The Art of Noise, i got their first album, very unusual

[@balinttakacs7111]

"To be in England In the summertime With my love Close to the edge"

[@Helaw0lf]

I got their debut and Dare.

[@statikverse]

8:17 Those last two .... I don't even know what to call them but I felt the intended jarring feeling of the sound... that's... that's fucking amazing to pull off. I had to rewind a couple of times to confirm that.

[@mellotones]

Thanks for this vid, it was dope!!!

[@8883-p2b]

I like John Cage’s 4’33 and his ongoing song that started in 2007, and is about 369 years long I assume.

[@samharchater6470]

I am sorry, I am a simple man, if I hear music that is enjoyable to me, I call it good music, and if I hear music that is not so enjoyable, I call it bad music. Now I know that is probably wrong but I am tone deaf so I can't tell the effort that goes into music that I don't like. That's why I am watching you guys, to educate myself more in music and you're doing a great job of making me understand it. :)

[@SoundFieldPBS]

Thanks for watching with us!

[@TonyMacFarlane]

IMHO all music is a balance between the head and the heart. It has to sit well within your heart to get a groove, but it also has to sit in your head so it won't be boring. Everyone's head and heart has a different fulcrum-that's why there's so much different music! Some people are perfectly comfortable with Coltrane's "Love Supreme", while others can play the Archie's "Sugar Sugar" non-stop all day. I recommend that you try to find one challenging song a week and see if you can find a way to get your foot tapping to it.

[@alexruiz421]

I love your channel guys. Greetings from Mexico. I think we have trained our ears to certain sounds and have limited our capacity for more possibilities. Ancient music such as Prehispanic music based their music from nature. What is more beautiful than nature? yet it is not popular music. So as in every aspect in life Marketing can change our perception of beauty.