Is this the FASTEST and CHEAPEST 8-Bit Computer Ever?

FlexiSpot E7 standing desk: bit.ly/3EVNWJX
PCBWay www.pcbway.com
The Agon Light claims to be the fastest and cheapest 8-bit computer in the world. Is that true? Let's have a look at it and learn about its surprising "re-writable" architecture.
Links:
Agon Light www.thebyteattic.com/p/agon.html
Agon Light Github github.com/TheByteAttic/AgonL...
TheByteAttic channel / @thebyteattic
BBC Basic port www.bbcbasic.co.uk/bbcbasic/z...
BASIC benchmarck page docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
Agon Console8 heber.co.uk/agon-console8/
Agon Console 8 Github github.com/AgonConsole8/agon-vdp
Agon Light at PCBWay www.pcbway.com/project/sharep...
Support Noel's Retro Lab on Patreon: / noelsretrolab
You can also support Noel's Retro Lab on KZbin by joining this channel:
/ @noelsretrolab
Chapters:
00:00 Intro
03:14 Exterior
04:43 Specs
05:31 BASIC and benchmark
10:04 Architecture
14:13 Re-writeable architecture
19:23 Updating firmware
20:46 Level 1: BASIC
21:58 Level 2: Z80
23:43 Level 3: VDP
25:36 Getting one
27:06 Conclusion
Music tracks:
Funky Stars by McKlain mcklain.bandcamp.com/track/fu...
Battro OST by McKlain mcklain.bandcamp.com/track/ba...
More awesome music by McKlain: www.mcklain.com
🛠 Tools I use ➤ noelsretrolab.com/tools.html
Connect with Noel's Retro Lab:
Discord ➤ / discord
Facebook ➤ / noelsretrolab
Twitter ➤ / noelsretrolab
Instagram ➤ / noelsretrolab
Mailing list ➤ noelsretrolab.com

[@NoelsRetroLab]

I forgot to mention that you can get 50% off on their chair with E7 standing desk order. Thanks again to FlexiSpot for this amazing workspace!

[@dieSpinnt]

Before I forget it to mention: Grown up men can't get USB-Power supplies with an on/off button/switch? (Or hubs with wonderful on/off switches?). (You after 4:00 , your valid critique about a missing power switch). So good that we girls are here and know the solution for EVERYTHING! (=42) Thanks for showing of this cool device, Noel. Entertaining and educating as usual. Thank you for the video!:)

[@KaiHenningsen]

@@dieSpinntHmpf - looking at my USB 4-port hub with on/off buttons and LEDs. (Mainly so I can switch my headset on and off without pulling out cables or clicking through menus.) Viel Spaß beim weiteren Spinnen.

[@SuperHaunts]

@@dieSpinnt shutting off the power isn't that big of a deal... but if you have an onboard switch, then you can monitor for proper Shut down including closing open files. Much better than just ripping the rug outWhile you are standing on it.

[@VioletGiraffe]

Typical: the peripheral controller is a 32-bit chip 20 times faster than the main CPU.

[@waytostoned]

Sigh, yeah...

[@benholroyd5221]

I agree, I suspect I come to the opposite conclusion to you though. I infer you're saying you should get rid of the microcontroller. I would say the opposite, get rid of the z80. To me the draw of 80s 8 bits isn't the processor per se, it's the limitations combined with the standardisation and 30+ years collective experience on the platform. A modern microcontroller is still very limited, but it's standardised. I'd like to see something like a pi Pico on a board with a crappy keyboard, vga out, and that's it. That to me would be the spiritual successor to the spectrum/c64

[@AlexanderRacheev]

@@benholroyd5221 Just look for the picomiteVGA, it's exactly the thing that you're describing. ESP32-SBC-FabGL by Olimex is also very close to your description, just featuring esp32 instead of Pico.

[@VioletGiraffe]

​@@benholroyd5221, I'm not at all saying to get rid of the ESP32, and your suggestion makes a lot of sense. I just find this imbalance funny.

[@benholroyd5221]

@@VioletGiraffe it is weird yes. But the thing is they want cheap, and an old processor. The processor probably costs more than MCU. From a performance/common sense/ cost pov, you'd just ditch the z80 entirely. Tbf, back in the day, it wasn't unheard of to have random things more powerful than the actual computer you attached it to. The c64 disc drive had its own 6502. The laser printer for the Mac se had a more powerful processor than the pc itself had. The cpm card for the apple 2 was basically an entire computer with a z80 in it.

[@deckard5pegasus673]

I have to disagree with people saying the Argon is not a true "retro" computer. If you study the architecture of the original Apple 1 computer, it was designed almost in the exact same way, with a "terminal graphic" circuit independent of the CPU circuitry. Also saying using the ESP is "cheating" IMO is incorrect if your are comparing it to other supposed modern "retro" computers. Other computers like the commander x16 use FPGAs, SD cards, etc.. all of which are NOT retro, but modern components not found in original 8 bit computers. Using an ESP is ingenious, opening the computer up to all sorts of tinkering and hacking, allowing people to learn so much more. Obviously this is inline with true spirit and real reason of the "retro" movement.

[@talideon]

On Europe, Olimex are a great option, and their Agon Lite variant has an extra port (their 'UEXT' port) that gives you access to some neat modules they provide, and exposes I²C, SPI, and RS232.

[@S0urceror]

Great to see you”re enthusiastic about the Agon. I’m the author of the Dezog debugger and ElectronHAL and ElectronOS. With this you have the concept of personalities so that it can assume the identity of a CP/M machine or a MSX1. I even have Kings Valley running on a virtual TMS9918.

[@jackshen2660]

well, the esp32 is a 32-bits mcu dual core, 240MHz. You can actually write a "wine" liked software. Which means one chip for all.

[@toddbeets]

I have an AgonLight, Maximite 2, and the Ultimate 64 and reflect on the niche for each one. The Ultimate 64 is exquisite -- its only downside is that there is not an Ultimate 128 with BASIC 7.0. The Maximite 2 is powerful and appealing, the ultimate in BASIC-all-the-things at amazing ARM speeds -- but BASIC is your whole world, If the Maximite 2 had the equivalent of Supermon and Turbo Macro Pro built in, it would be a Commodore 64 update for the 21st century. I haven't figured out the AgonLight niche yet -- but am enthusiastic.

[@espressomatic]

USB-A for power? That's... bizarre. And completely non-standard.

[@NoelsRetroLab]

Right? Although I think it was changed to a USB-B in the latest board revision.

[@lawrencemanning]

It’s typical of the guys mindset. You only have to look at his YT channel. He is well known to manage his “community” and delete comments that criticise his choices etc. I steer clear if anything he has done.

[@rog2224]

@@lawrencemanning You aiming for 'bitter' there?

[@trance_trousers]

I don't usually get excited by modern day recreations of 8 bit computers, but this one is very interesting. As someone who spent hours and hours programming on an Acorn Electron back in the 80s, the BBC Basic included on this is a big plus, for me at least.

[@leooz8071]

Sir, thank you for your service!!!👷

[@richard.20000]

Why using combo Z80+ESP to complicate things? ESP32 is modern 32-bit RISC CPU running at 240 MHz with HW FPU support, some versions are even dual-core. 240 MHz ESP32 can emulate Z80 code while being faster than the new 18 MHz Z80e. It seems to me overcomplicated to use heterogenous CPU. I think better way is to use only ESP32 - it will be cheaper, faster and can emulate ZX Spectrum, C64, NES easily. Maybe ESP+ESP or even 3x ESP for Amiga-like coprocessors. To be honest I do not see the need to reinvent 8-bit computer for other reason than studen project purpose. Everybody knows 8-bit computers were bad, 16-bit were less bad and 1st usable minimum is 32-bit (and that's why most today MCU are 32-bit). I don't want to sound negative. It's meant as constructive critique. Otherwise good job, I appreciate every new home-brew computer.

[@MonochromeWench]

It really surprises me that after almost 50 years z80 based processor cores are still being manufactured. The intel 8080 architecture really had some legs on it.

[@joefish6091]

8080 was first gen and meh, The Z80 is on another level. ditto the HD64180 (Z80 on steroids) and Zilogs Z180, theres also the Zilog CPU with Tiny BASIC built in.

[@jyvben1520]

but the Z80 is not from intel, compatible but greatly enhanced.

[@amihart9269]

Yes it did, 40 of them to be exact.

[@Bob-1802]

Amazingly these are very cheap to get, the new pin-to-pin compatible versions (CMOS Z84C00xx) can be bought for less than five bucks. Other new old processors like the 65C02 are more expensive.

[@davidg1830]

Z80 cores continue on production, but this SBC CPU isn't Z80, nor it is 8-bits. eZ80 CPU isn't an 8 bits CPU, although Zilog advertised it like being 8-bits, in fact it is a 24 bits CPU. eZ80 has 24 bit registers, 24 bit address, 16 or 24 bits ALU, so clearly it isn't an 8 bits CPU. Of course it can be set in Z80 compatibility mode, the same way a 32 bit x86 CPU from Intel can be in 16 bit more.

[@RMCRetro]

Nice overview, we've just sent h0ffman a Console8 and Steve has cranked the VDP up to 32 channels of audio so hopefully he can make it (and all Agons) sing!

[@NoelsRetroLab]

Awesome! I'm very curious to see how the Console8 evolves!

[@thebyteattic]

WOW!!!

[@willofirony]

You never mentioned the 'inline' assembler on the BBC Basic. I had a couple of models of the BBC, up to Master. The Basic experience was probably as good as it gets for Basic but the inline 6502 assembler was awesome. It could reference Basic variables and DATA lines and it could produce pure assembler applications. This flexibility made it wonderful for 'what if's in minutes and see the results in seconds.

[@NoelsRetroLab]

You're right, I didn't know about it until afterwards. The Z80 por does allow Z80 assembly, which is awesome. I'm super impressed with BBC BASIC (and quite a bit jealous that wasn't my BASIC experience back in the day).

[@SpikeBlighty]

Excellent review. I like your thoughts regarding the custom OS layer. The interview with the creator was very enlightening. Thank you.

[@wombatillo]

USB A to USB A is an abomination. Was there an actual reason to not use B, micro B or C type USB?

[@rog2224]

It was what he had to hand wend designing the original, and what Noel has is one of those Rev 1 boards. The Origins board uses a more standard USB-B (or C on the Olimex clone)

[@greenaum]

It's an official abomination, "illegal" under the USB rules. An A-to-A cable could be used to connect two power supplies together causing all sorts of disaster, possibly fires. The bloke must have just had a lot of type-A sockets hanging around, but yeah you never use an A socket to receive power, it's always for the supply side.

[@ShinyQuagsire]

​@@greenaumactually they legalized it under USB 3.0, and it's used for USB device mode/debug on some laptops

[@andresdominguez9333]

@@rog2224 The USB connector in the pictures of the Olimex's board looks to me like a type A. If the pictures and documentation is out of date it would be great if they can update it.

[@manicdataminer]

The Olimex version made some changes, including using USB C for power and female USB A for the keyboard (which still has to be PS/2 compatible). Otherwise, it is 100% compatible with the original version shown here.

[@jasmijndekkers]

Nice content and a great video. Keep up the good job! Greetings from Steven from the Netherlands

[@ezContents]

That's an eye-opener. Thanks for the complete overview.

[@cjheeley]

Bernardo is a really talented individual who's created something special. I've watched all his videos on the development of the Agon light (although I didn't understand a lot of what he was talking about). I really love his restoration videos of old 8 bit systems, the Wang being a favourite of mine. He really goes the extra mile and his attention to detail is beyond belief. A really cool guy and a fantastic YT channel

[@NoelsRetroLab]

Yes! And that reminds me I didn't add a link to his channel in the description. Done. Thanks!

[@OzRetrocomp]

Bernardo knows his stuff. The stuff he does is well above my pay grade, but I enjoy seeing and hearing about it.

[@ct92404]

​@@OzRetrocompI feel the same way. You don't necessarily have to 100 percent completely understand something to be able to enjoy it. I get the basic idea, and that is enough for me for now.

[@SuperDavidEF]

I'm definitely interested in a follow-up video in the next year or two.

[@winstonsmith478]

Thanks! Now I understand the capabilities of this SBC. Also, I didn't know about the Agon Console 8.

[@jedivino]

Thank you Noel for featuring my game Draegerman! Yes, it was my first learning basic game and it was a really fun way of learning on the Agon Light.

[@NoelsRetroLab]

You're welcome! That was actually really impressive for a learning game! ❤️ (That's coming from a game developer with 30+ years of experience 😃).

[@nfavor]

James Sharman on KZbin made an 8bit pipelined CPU. I forget the clock speed but because it's pipelined the performance was impressive. I'm curious how his processor would do with your benchmark

[@skilz8098]

His build is amazing. I've watched just about his entire series towards it. It's like he picked up where Ben Eater left off.

[@piconano]

Strangely enough, the ESP32 inside will beat the eZ80 to the curb. I prefer 8-bit computers with lots of standard ICs too. He could've used 2xESP32-S3 and go for the title of "cheapest 32 bit computer".

[@NoelsRetroLab]

Right. That's when things get weird. If you just want max performance you could even remove the Z80 and implement everything in the ESP32 😃 But it's not all that different from those accelerator boards on Amigas or other computers that end up being more powerful than the computer itself.

[@Rob2]

Of course when you are looking at things like that you just get a Raspberry Pi4 or Pi5 and have a "cheapest and much faster computer"...

[@another3997]

The most interesting 8 bit micros were the ones with custom ICs for graphics, sound and I/O. Most of the '80s and '90s computers had them, and of course, Nvidia, AMD and Intel will sell you custom graphics chips that use a standard connector and fairly standard APIs.

[@another3997]

​@@Rob2It gets even worse if you consider buying a cheap, used PC or even a new one. The price to performance ratio can be pretty amazing. Fortunately, we have the luxury of choosing from a variety of devices, whichever takes your fancy.

[@Rob2]

I mean the Pi5 could run an emulator for some 8-bit system at a much higher speed than this board... and with much better specs for video and storage. @@another3997

[@rustkitty]

This is a really interesting concept, I'd love to see what a demo scene could do with this hardware. Also like you, normally I'm not too excited about 8-bit computers where you have to plug in a keyboard, but with this hardware and firmware flexibility it could be repatriated into any existing microcomputer with a dead board. Or into one of the many aftermarket keyboard+case combos for Apple ][, Spectrum/N-GO, etc.

[@Davidprograma]

Hi Noel, and thanks for this video. I had already heard about the AgonLight, but after watching your video I ran to Mouser and got one - this weekend I will be tinkering with it. I've been thinking about designing/building my own retro (or not, just simple) computer for a few years without getting to a firm conclusion. But the architecture of the AgonLight is quite close to what I ended designing in my head - an ESP32 for video and I/O, and another CPU for the main work load. I already know the ESP32 from working on the ESPectrum emulator, and its tricks for generating video in software. As I am realizing that I don't have the time for all the things I wanna do, I've decided to take a shortcut and try the Agon. Maybe I could write a game for it - I just wrote a game for the Next, so who knows? Thanks again for your video, it has clarified a lot of things about the Agon.

[@iamdarkyoshi]

Given this is open source, I feel like a single PCB with modern mechanical keyboard switches and this board's hardware all in one would be pretty easy to do.

[@NoelsRetroLab]

For sure. I wish someone would do something like that and I'll design a case for it 😃 Seriously, being open source, it's begging for it.

[@greenaum]

It just doesn't make sense to build your own keyboard. Decent keyswitches by Cherry are a few quid each. Even cheap nasty clicky buttons would cost a ton more than just buying a cheap keyboard. PC keyboards have been a huge commodity item for decades. The cost is as low as they can make them. It doesn't make sense to make your own unless you have a really good reason, and the main idea for this thing seems to be "Z80 + cheap". You can always do it yourself if you're willing to spend the money, or do some 3D printing. But even cheap PC keyboards are pretty good, you'll have to spend a ton of money to equal one, never mind beat it.

[@wishusknight3009]

@@greenaum I think it would be kind of neat to biuld something akin to the Pi400. Though using an existing keyboard structure.

[@greenaum]

@@wishusknight3009 Just thinking... for your money you might even be as well using a touch screen. Or even just the resistive element without a screen. Or perhaps capacitive sensors, on a PCB, beneath some sheet of thin plastic or something. It'd be better than those horrible click switches, and be implemented in software so more configurable. Just get an XY coordinate and decide what key that is. There's the old-fashioned resistive carbon sheet or even indium tin oxide. But I bet there's something better you could do. Maybe the technology used in things like phone screens could be simplified down to something practical. Or else, maybe, just put some electrodes on a PCB, put wide wires on each side of a rectangle, and spray some carbon in between, or even roll it on as paint. Consistent thickness would be important. Or else just buy a cheap keyboard. But making a traditional keyboard-style keyboard would cost you way more than it does for companies who churn out millions of them. You could maybe adapt them with 3D printed keys. Actually somebody has produced new keyboard membranes for old 1980s computers. Maybe use one or two of those, steal the rubber domes from a cheap keyboard, and print your own body and keys. Or if they can have membrane manufactured, so can you. Maybe a flex PCB? Two sheets of that and some flexible plastic separating them with holes cut in it. You could make any keyboard you liked from scratch with that, I suppose. Long as you nicked the rubber domes from somewhere. Without a membrane, there's the PCB buttons that joypads use, with domes with a carbon button in the middle. Somebody must make those domes though you'd have to buy a lot I suppose, still you might sell the rest on. Maybe you could even 3D print the domes with some floppy springy plastic and get the carbon buttons from, I dunno, graphite? Or dip rubber in conductive paint?

[@wishusknight3009]

@@greenaum I have gotten a new PCB for one of my Model M's. it is not a small undertaking putting it all together, there is also a small list of replacement parts one needs to get to make a keyboard, not everything can be transferred from an old unit. Though modifying the gerbers to incorporate the circuitry for this computer does seem to be very possible. Beyond my abilities but not out of the question. Getting a donor board could make it cheaper. I was thinking though to just build this little unit as it sits, into an existing keyboard of some sort. Though finding something with the space is the real challenge. It would need to be an ergonomic or something that has some internal height and rear real estate for plugs.

[@shaurz]

Olimex make a version of this and they're also making the Neo6502 which uses an RP2040 for the graphics.

[@RichardHallas]

Great video! At last, the sort of coverage the Agon deserves. I’m just surprised that you didn’t mention one of the most important aspects of the system, namely the GPIO, which is addressable from BBC BASIC. Great for hobbyist electronics tinkerers or people who want to use the machine as a super-easy to program microcontroller. What other system lets you address pins directly in interpreted BASIC? And again, this is very educational. I see the Agon Light as a spiritual successor to the BBC Micro (more so than the Raspberry Pi, actually). It’s an instant-on computer that you can just turn on and program; it uses BBC BASIC, which is the best and fastest 8-bit BASIC around (ignoring its 32-bit version!); and it can interface easily with all kinds of home-grown hardware projects, just like the BBC Micro was uniquely good at. Much as I’m excited by Console8, I’d love to see the Agon being taken up in schools and universities etc. and used as an educational tool there for both computing and hardware projects. I think it’s perfectly suited for that, in a way that hasn’t been seen since the 1980s.

[@another3997]

RiscOS on the Raspberry Pi let's you address individual gpio pins in it's integrated, interpreted BBC Basic. It also runs extremely fast. 😉 The BBC Micro was complex and expensive when released, so was only accessible to many people via school or college etc. That severely limited it's user base. The RPi is the opposite, it also has the most amazing official and 3rd party support, and a huge community. It's something I don't see any other system getting close to. The Agon II Light looks to be a great system, I'm looking forward to getting one. I hope it and it's community continue to grow, but it's audience is different to the Pi's.

[@niekvans]

As nice as BBC BASIC may be, I have to respectfully disagree that this should be used in schools/universities. For young people of today, it makes much more sense to learn something like Python (or MicroPython), which could in some ways be regarded of the BASIC of today. By learning Python, you learn something that can immediately be applied throughout your study/career, unlike BASIC, which is basically useless for any professional work. You can get an ESP32-based board with VGA output that can run MicroPython for something like 15 euro. Another option is starting with something like an Arduino, which is also very easy to get started with programming.

[@SuperHaunts]

@@another3997 what ARE the Statements for reading GPI o on On RiscOS?

[@tohaason]

@@niekvans If that was just any BASIC I would agree, but at least BBC BASIC is structured. A structured language is great for teaching your mind how to design a program. In that sense Pascal (a useful variant like e.g. Turbo Pascal - which is probably what I will use on the Agonlight2 when I get mine - I'll move to CP/M) is a great way to get into the right mindset before proceeding to something else. It doesn't really matter which language you start on, as long as it's not something like non-structured BASIC. Moving to something else is easy-peasy.

[@ericrosen6626]

I keep a couple of USB-to-ps/2 adaptors in my "toolbox" (and ps/2-to-din) just in case I run into an older system. In the last 10-15 years, I can count how many times I've needed any of those adapters on one hand while still having fingers left over-- but I do KNOW that if I threw them away, I would have a need the next day :)

[@st3ddyman]

BBC Basic supports inline assembly language.

[@amihart9269]

I actually had heard of the eZ80 before because I had played around with writing assembly code for the TI-84+CE which has an eZ80 CPU.

[@wyattr7982]

Hot take: SMD soldering is a lot easier than people realize and I think it’s totally within the realm of your average DIYer

[@NoelsRetroLab]

I agree with you in general... until you get into really fine pitches. I wouldn't recommend soldering some of those ICs for someone doing their first SMD soldering.

[@SuperDavidEF]

@@NoelsRetroLab I'm agreeing with you on this one. I have done some soldering of some small SMD components. Even though it was a bit intimidating at first, I got through it and it turned out to be no big deal. But these chips on the AGON Light would probably be more than I could handle without a lot more practice!

[@johncochran8497]

Surface tension and solder mask are your friends my dear fellow. The rest is simple physics which you need not bother to think about since it's handled automatically.

[@another3997]

​@@johncochran8497Walking a tightrope across the Grand Canyon is just "simple physics", as is jumping out a plane at 10,000 feet. I wouldn't recommend either without some kind of practice... and probably a parachute too. 😉

[@johncochran8497]

@@another3997But the tightrope is a situation where physics is working against you. Soldering is where the physics is working for you. As I said, solder mask and surface tension are your friends.

[@whiskeytuesday]

If someone was to implement the gameboy PPU in the VDP... and write some kind of transpiler to translate the LR35902 specific opcodes to the eZ80, or a really thin interpreter layer maybe... this thing would be a reasonably phyically accurate gameboy color. That's kind of neat.

[@NoelsRetroLab]

Right. You could do that with almost any old/slow enough platform, right? That's the beauty of this device.

[@whiskeytuesday]

@@NoelsRetroLab you could, I mention this specifically because the LR is sort of a z80 already (and sort of not; It's not a strict subset or superset of the 8080 or the z80, weirdly).

[@AndrewHelgeCox]

You might have issues with the timing being off.

[@ToumalRakesh]

I still wanna get a Color Maximite 2. It sucks that that thing isn't available anywhere.

[@wishusknight3009]

I was extremely disappointed with the x16. With how expensive it is, and that it didn't really have a design philosophy consistent with what they were wanting it to do. SNES controllers? really? It couldn't even use standard joypad protocols? It turned out to not be as open of a community project as i had hoped, and Dave started to show his snobbishness to those who were showing legitimate criticism for its feature creep and scope. I understand using the FPGA graphics solved a lot of problems, but that kind of made the whole thing just sit in the middle of nowhere. Little of what one may attempt to learn on it will be usable in any other ecosystem and the graphics core is somewhat locked down anyhow. But the ESP32 of this machine is something used for a lot of other projects and knowledge learned on the Agon will transfer to a lot of other things. And it also has aspects very familiar to a lot of tinkerers.

[@dieSpinnt]

Hardware-Sharing the access to the SD-Card between the ez80 and ESP32 would be absolutely cool! Imagine the possibilities of the co-processor (wrong term ... its a GPU) loading resources through an API without any work for the CPU. BTW there is also SRAM with dual ports on the market that could be shared between ez80 RAM and ESP32 PSRAM in static mode. That would be a BEAST! Hehehe

[@4bits4e47]

A valuable learning tool for those with insatiable curiosity and a great deal of time and patience. I achieved much of the same learning of BBC Basic using an RPi running RISC5 OS. Great review!

[@wishusknight3009]

The ESP32 also ensures that some of what you learn can be transferred to other projects. That was a great design choice.

[@bazodee2]

Just the thought of having to stand infront of computer longer than a minute or two makes my bad knees ache.

[@nedmerrill5705]

Did a lot of Basic and Z80 assembly programming on a TRS80 back in the day. This sounds like fun to me. I'll be getting one.

[@talideon]

Locomotive BASIC is actually partly inspired by BBC BASIC, and as BASICs go, they're both relatively fast interpreters, leaps and bounds beyond Microsoft BASICs and Sinclair BASIC. The killer feature though, if you want speed, is that BBC BASIC is effectively a macro assembler!

[@Booruvcheek]

I could not stand Sinclair BASIC because of the stupid "can't just type the keyword, must find the key combo" thing.

[@another3997]

​@@Booruvcheek Later Spectrums didn't use that system, so you wouldn't have a problem. The keyword system itself was OK once you got used to the layout, even if the physical keyboards left a lot to be desired. They were built down to a price that made them affordable, that involved making compromises. Otherwise a lot of people wouldn't have got a computer, or even ended up with one of the many dismal failures that came and went almost overnight.

[@Booruvcheek]

@@another3997 I understand the desire to cut the cost, I even understand that having keywords as special symbols / characters simplifies the job of Basic interpreter significantly. However, by the time I got my Spectrum clone in 1990 (being a kid in the USSR during its last days you don't get an original ZX Spectrum, unless you're a son of a party elite), I've had some experience with IBM PC clones, and the difference was night and day. I was pretty proficient with QWERTY keyboard already, and having to look up keywords instead of just typing them in was infuriating. On a tangent, every Soviet "home computer" at the time had JCUKEN keyboard ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JCUKEN?useskin=vector#Latin_JCUKEN ), which was also a dealbreaker for me.

[@geowar20]

The Agon light uses an 18 MHz eZ80F92. I have a SBC that used the 50 MHz eZ80F91 that’s 2.78 times faster. There are also the Min-ez and eZ-Tiny that use the 50 MHz parts. Oh, and the eZ80F91 is also superscalar with a 3x performance boost over the F92… effectively a 150 MHz speed. There are rumors about an Agon heavy using the F91 part also.

[@rileyfaelan]

IIRC, in the PC world, the AT keyboards, which had standard-size DIN connectors, had the same signals as PS/2 in them, so there were simple PS/2-AT adapters, and creating one from scratch would also be as easy as taking one connector of each sort and wiring them up correctly. The earlier XT keyboards also used DIN connectors, but a different signalling protocol, so if one wanted to make a converter, something like Arduino Nano would come in handy.

[@greenaum]

RT Russell's Z80 BASIC was used on the Z88, Sir Clive Sinclair's excellent portable computer (and it really is good). The BASIC is copyright 1987, which is when the Z88 was released, so I wonder if it was commissioned for the Z88?

[@Soruk42]

His BBC BASIC (Z80) was also used on the Acorn Z80 second processor for the BBC Micro, which could be run in ROM (so boot to Z80 BASIC) or loaded in as a CP/M application.

[@mewintle]

I have my original Z-88 from when I was 20 y/o. And the assembly language book for it. It was pretty cool, but the keyboard made it too hard to type in software for me to be able to use it for more than curiosity. It was literally a great doorstop for my bedroom door.

[@RevellingTerror]

Hi, great interesting video, particularly your reference to the Amstrad CPC range of machines, I was a CPC games programmer in the 80's working on titles such as Rambo, International Karate, Daley Thompson's Supertest, Spy Hunter, Zaxxon and more. If you're interested I could elaborate on some of the techniques we used on the CPC to squeeze the most speed from the Z80 and how we used interrupts to enable multiple graphic resolutions to be displayed within single frames... thanks.

[@NoelsRetroLab]

I cut my teeth on the Amstrad CPC, playing and cracking a lot of those games (sorry! 😃) and I would absolutely love to poke your brain about it sometime. Can you drop me an email in my contact on the KZbin page or a message on Discord/Twitter? Thanks!

[@vasilis23456]

Last semester I had a class where we programmed a video display processor to an FPGA in Verilog. Most people who implemented VDPs in their final projects ended up synthesizing a microcontroller onto the FPGA (Xilinx/AMD's Microblaze) and then programming the VDP in C. The reasoning behind doing this is that it takes 10+ minutes to synthesize a Verilog implementation while it takes 5 seconds to compile a C program. Bug fixing is much faster and easier on Microcontrollers, and Verilog simulation outputs are wavetables, it would be very hard to make a program that reads the HDMI traces and puts them in an emulated video window.

[@jeromecollobert]

I've one olimex version myself and i'm totally agree with your conclusion. I'm very interested about new highspeed 8bit computer or gaming console and unfortunately totally disapointed by the experimental aspect of VDP. I'm not the target 😢

[@Barnardrab]

Questions: 1) Would it have been possible for them to install a DisplayPort in addition to the VGA? 2) What's the best gaming performance you could get out of it? Could it top the Super Nintendo? Support 2D and 3D vector graphics? I think squeezing the full potential performance out of 8-bit CPUs is an intriguing concept. The advantage that you get with 8-bit CPUs is that they are smaller, cheaper and use little power. They are ideal for systems that do not require significant computing resources.

[@tomiluukkonen4035]

Found about Agon almost a year ago and concept itself is brilliant. But only 6-bit colours by default still puzzles me. Even with fixed-palette 8-bit (256c) it would be SO much easier to port old games from 8-bit era? And Agon badly needs support for USB-keyboards and hdmi-output. I still use PS/2-kb but I'm old and luckily still have those around. Where is Basic-compiler for Agon - that would make a huge difference (2-5*speedup) when porting 80's homemade programs?

[@synchronuse]

You can buy USB - PS/2 Adapters for keyboards

[@kazriko]

This isn't the fastest 8-bit computer I've seen. The chips from Rabbit Semiconductor (rabbit 2000/3000) are near z180 compatible and run over 30mhz. The rabbit 6000 series are 200mhz, but I haven't actually used one so I don't know if those are still 8-bit. There's no basic environment for them yet though. You usually program them with their own C variant.

[@ProDigit80]

I would love to see a Fast/impulse/scream Tracker program run on this, using 4 to 8 channels and small samples (sawtooth, noise, sine, triangle, or a mix of any of them), and maybe some effects like reverb, echo, distortion, fuzz, buzz, EQ, and a few others..)

[@Kimdino1]

This Re-writable architecture thing - that's how the Sinclair computers were built. Clive Sinclair did it for cost reasons. At the time hardware was expensive, while software, once written, was free. He had a damned good processor (for the time) so he decided to let it do a lot of the work, There was a bit of hardware help from his ULA but this could easily be paged a for RAM with your own software, or hardware). Thus I had my ZX81 running high(er) definition graphics., albeit veeerrry slowly. And my Spectrum running, with two 5" floppy drives, as a full CP/M 2.2 system. Though I must admit that there was a lot of software 'borrowed' from a Pied Piper. Many people were very scathing of the Spectrum due to it lack of a dedicated hardware sound etc. but to me this was its beauty. It meant that it could be made into anything you wanted. The only limitation was that one lone CPU had to do ALL the work. At that time I had never thought of slave processors. But back to the point - that Agon IS replicating a classic 8 bit computer. It's just that I would probably have used another Speccy at the time as the ESP32 wasn't not available back then.

[@charlesspringer4709]

Here is a video tip. When you are holding the item you are talking about, wave it around wildly so we can not see it. I almost got a look at it, so you are not waving it enough! Anyway, you can buy 65C02 chips rated 14MHz that will run at 20MHz.

[@mewintle]

Lol

[@marcdraco2189]

"8 bit computers usually have many more chips" When was the last time you looked inside of a ZX81? Half the price and a fraction the number of chips of the ZX80... and this was back in 1980. Or even a Commodore Vic20 or 64 which ran on the 6502 platform? A fraction of that number - not that I can ID which computer that was from. And they were all accessible with basic soldering tools. SMD parts are a bloody nightmare, I know this because my current audio design has to use 402 parts so I can get them all into a 20mm circular board which already needs breather and fixing holes. BUT SMD, due to the shorter leads is much more reliable at high speed due to the lack of stray inductance/capacitances that are inevitable with traditional through-hole parts.

[@Optimus6128]

It's funny that I must have been watching Bernando somewhere in a totally different space, maybe in theories of everything or other podcast doing philosophical discussions about science and consciousness, then in my more familiar space I watch this video, I am like "nice device, but have I seen this guy before?". Haha, it's the same Bernando doing retro hacks!!! Wow, impressed.

[@thebyteattic]

😄👍

[@Optimus6128]

@@thebyteatticOh wow, hi there! Interesting device btw, I am planning to buy one at some point (probably the console release), curious to get me coding into some ez80 based platform sooner or later as I have previous experience with z80 and I am curious.

[@spudhead169]

Noel, your personal opinion is exactly what I come here for.

[@tarzankom]

This reminds me a little bit of the Apple-1. It was a computer with a computation area, and a separate terminal to handle display. This sounds similar.

[@0LoneTech]

The Apple 1 had a hardware terminal built with discrete components, quite a neat design you can grok. This has a separate computer over an order of magnitude faster and larger. It would have been easier to run BBC BASIC for SDL or Brandy directly in it.

[@crystalsheep1434]

Cool the eZ80 is the same chip as the one un the TI-84 plus CE. I was thinking that someone should make a portable pocket computer with this chip and this is a good starting point for that

[@landtimforgot]

As well as the Z80 second processor and Z88, BBC Basic was available for the Z80 based Tatung Einstein.

[@BrainSlugs83]

I was researching modern Z80 equivalents a few years ago and stumbled on to the eZ80 series of chips; except for unpredicted branches, the added pipelining makes the CPU run another ~4x faster than a classic Z80 (if they were running at the same clock speed), and the eZ380 CPU can run up to ~200 MHz IIRC (which is insane, as it would be the equivalent of a 600 to 800 MHz classic Z80. The serial line audio / video isn't that bad if it has things like hardware sprites, samples, etc. -- Loading and setting things up might lag (or not), but at runtime, you wouldn't really notice. -- As for the "fake hardware" it's at least more real than the Commander X16 in that regard, as there are no FPGA defined devices. A microcontroller really does have a lot more real limitations than an FPGA...

[@jnharton]

I understand the desire to not use an FPGA instead of "real silicon", but people to seem to forget that custom silicon, customizable gate array chips, and various kinds of PLDs were used back then.

[@Torbjorn.Lindgren]

I agree that it's certainly not less "real" than a FPGA which is what the others use. And FPGA is WAY harder to develop for, and here he could bypass even most of that because FabGL for ESP32 already existed and does graphics, audio and PS/2 keyboard/mouse... He's mentioned possibly making an Agon Heavy later if it's stable enough to support a second version, there's a number of choices that ought to be compatible up to at least 50MHz (so more than 2.5x) and/or has way more IO lines.

[@shanehebert396]

The FPGA in the X16 is basically just a graphics card, which even some 8-bit systems in the 80s had specialized graphics hardware to handle sprites and such (not to mention the 16-bit days with the Amiga's graphics). It's actually potentially *less* capable than the 'graphics processor' in the Agon Light since the VDP is an ESP32 processor... just a straight up computer on its own running at 240MHz. You can even use just it and ignore the eZ80 side of it ;)

[@paulie-g]

In terms of 'real', FPGA is more real because it is real hardware, except redefinable. FPGAs are often used to replace ULA chips which were a predecessor technology to FPGA. Personally, I don't get the FPGA hate. This same Zilog ez80 processor can be supplied as a core (and presumably softcore for FPGA). It's just an implementation detail and a way for regular humans to design our own hardware without committing six figures to tape out and fab a chip. If you think a microcontroller 'imposes more restrictions', you've never designed in Verilog or RTL. It's an order of magnitude more difficult. That particular microcontroller already has IP cores on-chip implemented to do a lot of the difficult video bits like RGB565, that's why it was chosen.

[@another3997]

​@@shanehebert396Most 8 bit micros had custom or dedicated hardware for displaying graphics. In that sense, modern PCs amd consoles are no different... GPUs are custom parts with standardised APIs. An FPGA can be a full computer too, the whole Commander X16 could be fitted on an FPGA for far less cost than the current version. I doubt the Agon 2 could be made cheaper. Horses for courses... buy whichever system(s) suit you best. 🙂

[@tohaason]

Interesting. I've had an eZ80F92 development board (from Zilog) laying around for ages, but I haven't got around to do anything with it. I went and ordered the Olimex variant from the Pi Hut.

[@MadsonOnTheWeb]

That's great. z80, most of those newer computers I've been seeing are some sort of 6502. Not gonna lie, I'm kinda tired of those. I wanted to see z80 or even something more like 8088 or even 68k (but I guess those last ones aren't available anymore).

[@jnharton]

There are plenty of 68000 family CPUs kicking around in the wild, although the official support chips might be hard to find.

[@MadsonOnTheWeb]

@@jnharton So, I see this z80 is kinda of a microcontroller and I know that coldfire is based on 68k. But not sure about pricing.

[@kc9scott]

I’ve long thought that a great niche would be a computer with an 8-bit data bus (and truly 8-bit code) but 24-bit linear addressing (maybe upgradable to 32-bit). I’m initially from the Apple II world, and one of the obvious learnings from using a 6502 is that the stack pointer really needs ability to access the entire memory. A few years later, the 65C816 came out, and it was a disappointment, since has 24-bit addresses, but only a 16-bit stack pointer. So the eZ80 seems like it might fit this niche. Is it in fact the first processor to do this, after all these years?

[@johnm2012]

Do a web search for "V20 MBC" and/or "68k MBC". You might like what you find.

[@jeffrowe6004]

lol, had to laugh when you mentioned turning off the pc and retyping the program when you was talking about saving on the sd card. I learned to program on a Vic 20 because I had to retype games from Compute magazines so many times..

[@paulstubbs7678]

A nice little computer, Using a USB 'A' for the power in, well that's a bit weird. I'd probably swap that out. HDMI, is unfortunately a propriety standard, you have to sign up with them $$$$ to use it. You said you had some DIN connector keyboards, but no PS2, well (apart from the very early PC5150 & XT) they are the same thing, just a different plug, you can just use an adapter, or cut off the plug and fit a mini-din, or wire a full size DIN plug up to the Agon pcb.

[@RetroHoo]

Hey! Locomotive Basic was good too 😅 Certainly compared to what you got on the Commodore! I actually learned to program on my Schneider/Amstrad 6128 with green screen in 1991 😊

[@another3997]

Just about ANY Basic on any other machine was better than the version on the C64. Even the Sinclair ZX81 version had graphics commands built in. 😂

[@RetroHoo]

I can't really argue with that 😅. I was always very impressed by Locomotive, but yeah, it didn't have functions/subroutines

[@AlistairGale]

Why are we calling them 8 bit cpus, when clearly every useful mode is 16 bit?

[@NoelsRetroLab]

Because the eZ80 can only read or write 8 bits at a time (the ESP32 is a different beast, but that's not playing the role of CPU).

[@youreale]

I agree that using the ESP32 is like cheating a bit (no pun intended);

[@gerrytemple5044]

Very interesting little thing! I bought a Colour Maximite 2 for 110$, which is 32 bit and comes with a fantastic MM-Basic and a solid metal case. It also has higher resolution graphics with plenty more colours. Would be great to see a comparison. Cheers, great fun! 👍

[@johnwilson5980]

in 1985 I got myself a secondhand pc planted in my hands by my nice landlord. Australian Made, 286 DX40 with I would . This computer was faster than the imported computers at the time.

[@douro20]

There is MSX support in the works. MSX-DOS already runs on it using a firmware level compatibility layer.

[@col8981]

A lot of the commands in BBC basic could be abbreviated when typing in a listing e.g. P. = PRINT , LO. = LOAD they are expanded when you LIST (LI.)

[@marcdraco2189]

I didn't know that - was that option always there or added in later versions. I don't have my original Model B any more.

[@johnm2012]

​@@marcdraco2189It was there from the beginning. OS commands, issued from BASIC or any other language by preceding them with an asterisk, could also be abbreviated. The dictionary was ordered in such a way that the ultimate abbreviation *. (star dot) expanded to *CAT which was similar to DIR in DOS or ls in UNIX.

[@marcdraco2189]

@@johnm2012 Well damn! In all the years I spent writing code in BeeBeeCee BASIC too. I could have forgotten of course, it's been a few decades but more likely I missed that bit in the manual! :)

[@johnm2012]

​@@marcdraco2189The included manual was the spiral bound Welcome Guide. It's available as a pdf online if you want to check for yourself.

[@marcdraco2189]

@@johnm2012 I had one. I learned how to program using it. But for “reasons” I don’t remember that. Of course false memories are telling me I DID do that but I don’t know if I should believe them any more. The only one I recall shortening was REN. Because that would be a lot to type.

[@jgharston]

That benchmark is mostly testing the speed of the display I/O, not the speed of the BASIC. To test just the speed of the BASIC itself, not the speed of the video I/O system, you need to remove line 60.

[@forbiddenera]

Man..I thought I was bad for using an intellimouse for farrrr too long..crazy to see one still being someones main mouse

[@pandacongolais]

Fun and original computer you got there ! May be another use for this board is evaluation/development, with product development purpose. I don't know about modern Z80 CPU/MCU use, but since many Chinese product are still using 8051 (or 8051 core based) MCUs, more than you would suspect, why not use Z80 based ones too ? Question : at 13:50, you wrote that the speed of the serial connection is 1 152 000. Is this a typo, because the usual "confortable" value is 115 200 ? Or is it the actual speed, which would be justified by all the data the serial link has to handle ?

[@AndrewHelgeCox]

I believe it's in the megabit range.

[@David-lk1hq]

I believe 1,152,000 is the correct number - according to the manual github.com/TheByteAttic/AgonORIGINS/blob/main/Agon%20light%20ORIGINS%20Manual.pdf

[@LordOfNihil]

i kind of have a problem with the requirements for a retro-ish keyboard and monitor. the fpga rout i think would have been better in that regard. as it could have supported usb, hdmi/dp, perhaps some modern networking, and still have enough space to run a simple soft processor to handle other tasks. if that wasn't enough you could reconfigure it to your own needs and provide a header so you could spin a custom daughter board for whatever additional interfaces you may need. this also gives it more educational value for people who want to do electronics or architecture design. even if it does tick up the price point significantly.

[@another3997]

By the time you've added all that, you might as well by a Raspberry Pi or similar. There comes a point where everything is modern except the CPU itself, and yet it will cost more money and perform worse than other products. HDMI has to be licensed, so that's understandably missing. Communications can be handled over GPIO if you wanted. This board is for tinkering, experimenting and having fun playing around. If you want a 'complete' solution, just buy an old PC... they have everything built in, they're cheap, powerful and you can program in BASIC or just emulate any 8 bit computer you want.

[@LordOfNihil]

@@another3997 if you start using a raspberry pi, you might as well just use a pc. the benefit of these low spec boards running very close to the bare metal is that its fully comprehensible. every subsystem can be understood in detail by a single individual. pi and pc both go way beyond that. on the other hand the esp32 can run circles around the "main" processor. using this to then emulate all the hardware you need. at that point why do we have a main processor at all? an fpga can be the hardware, an actual extension of the data bus and function similar to retro hardware while providing quite a bit of extensibility.

[@alphaforce6998]

A product being billed as an 8-bit computer will cause most people to presume it is some kind of retro hardware, so it may be true that it is cheap to essentially emulate hardware in this "blank slate" system, the main differentiating factor between retro and modern computers has been the detachment of software from hardware. Modern computers tend to treat hardware and software discretely in the sense that the underlying system is a "software environment" provided by the OS. Older hardware had a more appliance-like blending where the software that could run on it was strongly restricted by the underlying hardware. You could say purpose-built and utilitarian, vs modern "general purpose". So, if the goal is to learn about computers then the former is really the only way to go, because it is the only way to truly see how the programs you write interact with the hardware.

[@SuperHaunts]

I think I'll get one to learn on, then buy a second and make it more modern usb friendly, especially keyboard wise

[@MagnaRyuuDesigns]

the eZ80 is pretty versatile. It's used in newer Texas Instruments Calculators as well.

[@agw5425]

I would love a 486 DX 133 with the most compatible/capable graphics "card" for use with win 95 or 98 so all or at least most old games would run as if on original hardware. A couple of usb ports would be fine for external keyboard/mouse, fdd and cd drives as long as it can boot from at least one of them. A new "old" pc that is complete and ready to run with only normal setup like the os and no additional drivers required would be worth much to manny. I use a thin client as a retro pc for win 98 today but there are issues with the graphics being to "new" and not compatible with many old games. A "old" pc in that format but with compatible hardware would be a dream come true, especially if it can be made at raspberry pi price levels. Can a 486 cpu and wodo 3d (or similar)graphics be made with modern hardware without breaking the bank even?

[@ryanyoder7573]

Windows 95 really needs a Pentium with 16MB RAM. I built and sold computers when 95 launched and did so many Pentium 90 upgrades it was nuts.

[@squirrelarmor]

I learned assembly on an ez80 via the TI-84 Plus CE. Pretty sweet chip.

[@Kimdino1]

Does it expose the full Z80 bus? In a setup like this I would imagine that very little of the Z80s I/O space is used. And to have access to ALL that would be awesome. Direct, simple access to 8Mb of address space dedicated to hardware, and directly addressable at the lowest level. An dream beyond imagination for a roboticist.

[@jacquesmertens3369]

We have to give credit to the guy who designed this, if only for keeping the 8-bit legacy alive (on a 24-bit processor that can accept 8-bit commands). Having said this, it's not a product I would buy. Sorry. A bit too much DIY, no on/off switch, no hdmi, no possibility to connect a regular keyboard etc.

[@NoelsRetroLab]

I wouldn't be surprised to see a version in the future that directly addresses a lot of those issues (pure guess on my part though).

[@drramtop1576]

The architecture of this board seems rather strange, it looks much like an ESP32 with a Z80 co-pro. Having components loosely coupled using serial buses (I'm presuming SPI?) is going to make programming the Agon quite odd for anyone used to retro 8-bit machines. I guess the saving grace is the price, which is low enough I can see it being useful for 'raspberry pi' type projects, but ones where ease of programming matters more than raw performance. Speaking of performance, the eZ80 doesn't seem all that quick. I tried the little BBC basic benchmark on a 16MHz 65C02 with Acorn's BBC basic 4.3 and it completed around 40% quicker than the Agon (1.07s).

[@mwaddams]

No, UART for the link, SPI is used for flashing.

[@rog2224]

I've not felt much of a disjoint. It's not more visible than using a Coprocessor on an old BBC B

[@another3997]

I could be wrong, but I don't think Richard's Z80 port of BBC Basic is as optimised as the original Acorn 6502 version. I'm sure Richard himself said as much. But compared to the 2Mhz BBC Micro, the Agon 2 is a rocket ship. 🙂

[@justfellover]

Before I ordered, pcbway advertised that they would do the assembly for up to 20 boards for $30 for first time customers. Right now, the order for 10 of them is under review with a displayed price of $350 for assembly, plus $160 for the boards. Hoping they do the right thing, after going to such effort to lure me into their store and all...

[@DanielMReck]

USB-A for power INPUT?! Have some STANDARDS! (Thank goodness they fixed it to USB-B for the second revision....tho USB-C would have made more sense as a modern project.)

[@awilliams1701]

The 6502 is faster than the Z80 by about 3 times. That means the commander 16 is actually still faster in performance. I believe it's 8mhz that's about a 21 mhz z80 equivalent. It's not a huge difference, but still

[@awilliams1701]

I was actually curious so I checked out your benchmark page. Neither this nor the commander x16 are mentioned on it. lol And in the video you didn't give the time. But I'd say maybe 5 seconds. I would expect them to be close though...or not. You do give it later in the video as 1.8 seconds. So I was off. But I would expect the CX16 to be in that ball park.

[@NoelsRetroLab]

Yes, the Agon Light was 1.8 seconds. I'll update the chart. I'm genuinely curious how the X16 performs there (not like this is a good benchmark of all-around performance). If you have one and you can run it, let me know. The eZ80 is pipelined, so that probably accounts for even extra performance over a fast 6502 (just guessing).

[@awilliams1701]

ok with those enhancements it might actually be able to compete. I'd be curious for a comparison.

[@awilliams1701]

@@NoelsRetroLab I tend to live comment so I frequently say things that are updated later in the video. lol yeah that pipeline enhancement might make up the 3x difference. I don't though. I'm on the wait and see. I can't afford it at the moment after dropping $10k on a new AC unit. and dog only knows how much to fix my roof. sigh..... And besides I haven't even had time for my C64 in a while.

[@geowar20]

Regardless of the CPU clock speeds the 6502 with only one accumulator and two index registers (8-bits each) spends much more time marshaling data to and from memory than the Z80 with one 8-bit accumulator and three 16-bit registers and two 16-bit index registers. I program both in assembly and find the 6502 much more restrictive.

[@mkvalor]

12:21 Yeah - I was wondering, myself, why this is considered an "8-bit CPU" when its natural register size and address space is 24 bits. I imagine the next obvious improvement would be to widen the memory controller/bus to 24 bits as well (or even a cache line that is a multiple of 24 bits).

[@PeBoVision]

Forgive me if this question reflects my inherent stupidity, but having a customizable VDP, does the Agon-light support sprites out of the box in BASIC (I'm sure that the speed of the systems makes them superfluous) or can sprite functions be implemented by the user within the VDP ? Again with all of the information you have provided on the ESP32, I hope this is not a dumb question but I really look at this as a BASIC box with unlimited potential for high-evel language programmers with direct low-level support. Regardless, I look forward to seeing where this goes.

[@NoelsRetroLab]

Not a dumb question at all! Yes, it does support an implementation of sprites. And the cool thing is that if someone wanted to, they could implement something pretty different.

[@PeBoVision]

@@NoelsRetroLab Switching between the Commodore, Texas Instruments and Atari sprite implementations (PM graphics for the latter) would be SOOO much fun. Giant multi-coloured sprites that you could set in motion, while your code moves onto more important things!!! And at the speed of this things collison detection would be flawless!! This really is exciting. Thanks (as always) for the video.

[@PeBoVision]

@@NoelsRetroLab It sounds like the machine I always dreamed of back when I dreamed of "THE" machine. It will certainly be a community worth watching.

[@blarghblargh]

Maybe im confused, but is there a "default" vdp implementation? Or is it always some sort of blank slate once you get down to the assembly level?

[@NoelsRetroLab]

Yes, there is. The one I showed running BBC BASIC and any of the demos. And you can always start tweaking it from that code.

[@andyleighton3616]

Yeah by default there is VDP, MOS and Basic. The version of VDP and MOS sort of have to be kept in sync (although I guess you could write new VDP extensions as long as you keep the existing VDP API the same). Without any VDP code - it just doesn't work - it wouldn't know how to output anything to the screen, or how to read the keyboard etc.

[@GenialHarryGrout]

I used Sinclai QL SuperBASIC which didn't need lines numbers for subroutines. I never programmed in BBC Basic so would have to brush up on that

[@rog2224]

BBC BASIC V, which is part of RISCOS, doesn't need line numbers, if memory serves. The OS is a little idiosyncratic, but I believe it can be configured to boot directly into BASIC on RPi, if you're interested in tinkering on something that might feel a little closer to SuperBASIC. BBC BASIC on BBC B/Electron kit was my fourth BASIC dialect - ZX81, TI BASIC, MS BASIC on Apple IIe, and then BBC BASIC, so line numbers are sort of ingrained for me.

[@GenialHarryGrout]

@@rog2224 I learnt to program in the early 1970's and that was BASIC so when home computers became a thing in the late 70's early 80's then I was ready has soon as I set up my computer. IMy first home computer was a ZX81 followed by a Dragon32 then the QL so line numbering was how I was taught and how used while programming in that language. I only stop using line numbers when I became a developer for a software house who didn't use BASIC.

[@alk3myst]

Great Video! Don't need this right now, but I so want to buy one.

[@robertramsey8871]

Because of the fact that the microcomputer functions from a disc in this case an SD card, there should be another SD card port and unintegrated function to make copies of SD cards. That way there would be a definite usage for the modern-day PC enthusiasts, but a way to backup the operating system very quickly with just a few commands

[@prozacgodretro]

Is the EZ80 and Z180 similar? or possible the same or something?

[@radekhn]

The cpu core is actually Z180. So you can see in the eZ80 instruction set few one from Z180. If I remember correctly it can multiply. However the Z180 MMU is not there.

[@etmax1]

One thing about quoting the clock speed, I'd prefer that was never mentioned as it has almost zero relevance. What is way more important is the average instruction cycle time, as for example the original Z80 had something like 10 or more (can't remember exact numbers) clock cycles per instruction meaning that if you compared it to an ATmega which has an average 1-2 clock cycles per instruction so a 4MHz Z80 runs at ~0.4MHz (or slower) and an ATmega at 4MHz runs at 4 MHz or 10 times faster for the same crystal Frequency.

[@NoelsRetroLab]

The Z80 has a variable number of clock cycles per instruction (some of them are just a couple), but the eZ80 has extra pipelining, so I think they reduced that by quite a lot. But yes, the clock frequency only makes sense when comparing it to the same architecture, not to a different CPU.

[@juanantonio4955]

Great Noel!!

[@kazriko]

As to if it's 8-bit, I imagine it depends on the ALU rather than the bus width. The 8088 was a 16 bit computer with a 16 bit ALU, but only had an 8 bit data bus.

[@kc9scott]

I normally think of it based on the data-bus width, but you’ve got a good point. I think the reason we could maybe call an 8088 16-bit is that it was based on the 8086, and you could run the same code on either an 8086 or 8088, i.e. 16-bit code. Likewise with the 32-bit 68000 vs. the 68008 with just an 8-bit external data bus. Wikipedia (at least currently) refers to the 68008 as 8/32 bit. OTOH, back in the day when the CPU chip was only a small portion of a computer’s hardware, the cost and differences in bus-connector size and chip-count from the external data-bus width were significant factors.

[@johnm2012]

Wouldn't that approach make the Z80 a four-bit CPU?

[@perfectionbox]

Neat. So if e.g. I wanted it to emulate a TRS-80 Model III or a CoCo, the video system could be reprogrammed to do that?

[@thebyteattic]

Probably, as someone already did MSX emulation on it!

[@andyleighton3616]

A CoCo would be out that used a 6809e as the processor - not a Z80. A TRS-80 Model III to some extent - that used memory mapped graphcs (so you could peek and poke straight into video ram), the way the MOS/VDP works is sending commands like set this pixel, or draw a line from here to there - so anything low level probably wouldn't work. But you could probably get some high level BASIC stuff working and I guess someone could port TRDOS. The alternative is to write an emulator that works entirely on the VDP chip and which doesn't use the main RAM or EZ80 processor. As someone else mentioned MSX - that is a little different as that had a TMS9918 chip to handle the graphics and the video graphics were not in the main RAM (you used VPOKE and VPEEK). Later MSX models had better video display chips - the TMS9938 and TMS9958. As you can probably guess that makes it much cleaner to emulate - the VDP code emulates what the TMS9918 did in terms of graphics.

[@csbruce]

The CMD SuperCPU for the Commodore-64 & 128 ran at 20 MHz. You could argue the 65816 is a 16-bit CPU, but it has a hardware 8-bit 6502 emulation mode.

[@another3997]

This version of the Z80 has so many built in peripherals and modern amenities, it's difficult to classify it. Older CPUs don't have those benefits. Without running as close to identical code on each CPU, it's hard to tell which is faster. The original 6502 version of BBC Basic is better optimised than the Z80 version, so even the Basic benchmarks aren't that helpful.

[@TalmidAndy]

While I don't have the appropriate skill set I would love to see the ability to connect retro hardware/software to the Agon, such as the weather satellite system for the BBC computer.

[@KipIngram]

Holy cow - I was only familiar with Kastrup via his philosophy work; had no idea he was an online hardware dude too.

[@martinenglish6641]

I will get this card to use as a PLC and see how it does. I now use Raspberry Pi boards to replace and upgrade industrial customers PLC's.

[@Mrcometo]

Great show! 8:30 I miss the Grundy NewBrain

[@NoelsRetroLab]

That was actually a TI-99/4A. I never had the pleasure to tinker with a NewBrain. Some day...

[@sentientechnologyworldwide]

Hello Sir! Could this be used for SMS? Thanks