Isandlwana: What happened to the poor little drummer boys?

[@BawlzOfuzz]

I remember going to Islandwana as a young boy. It wasn't school that got me interested in history it was listening to the stories of utter desperation and bravery that that made me take notice. In a way I'm grateful for the opportunity because its helped shape me into the man I am today. God bless all these brave men. One day I will return to the battle field where my passion began.

[@welshwarrior5263]

There were a lot of myths that came about over these battles. The only people that would really know are the soldiers that were there. Excellent as always. Thank you for sharing.

[@redcoathistory]

Thanks mate...I try and skip a lot of comments these days for my own sanity - but I always skim through to try and spot yours and reply. Hope you are well.

[@welshwarrior5263]

@@redcoathistory Thank you for those kind words mate, It means a lot. My job is horrendous lately so don't get much time to sit down and binge watch your videos as much as I would like. It must be annoying for you with some of the comments at times. Take a deep breath and ignore is the best. Thanks for all you do mate. Your knowlage and passion makes the world a brighter place.

[@michaelwhisman]

There are many rumors about every battle. A soldier who only saw what he could see from his position become experts on the conflict. During Vietnam many men were only mechanics and clerks and nothing more but to hear them talk they won the war by themselves.

[@lukeskywalker3329]

Very balanced . You sir are a true historian . These are revelations to me . Thank you .

[@MikeJones-xw3te]

I joined the British Army as a Boy Soldier in 1972 at the age of 15, turning 16 when I was posted to the Junior Tradesman Regiment. I was actually 17 1/2, when I was posted to BAOR.

[@TheTigerOC]

To my knowledge my great uncle, Tpr. Fred Jackson Natal Carbineers,(NC) was the youngest killed at Isandlwana. He turned 16 on the 25th December 1878 and volunteered to serve with the NC. His remains were found half way between the wagons and the group of NC that perished with Durnford. He was found with Tpr. Malcolm Moodie. The supposition is that Jackson was dispatched back to the camp to get more ammunition. Moodie had been injured in a fall the day before and remained in camp. Moodie and Jackson were carrying an ammunition box back when the camp was over run.

[@redcoathistory]

Thanks for sharing.

[@caeruleusvm7621]

Very interesting, thanks. He must have been at least a great great uncle if born in 1862.

[@TheTigerOC]

@@caeruleusvm7621 My grandmother's brother . So just one gr. Wars (3) for SA delayed marriage.

[@robertcottam9000]

@@caeruleusvm7621 Not necessarily. A pal of mine had a grandfather who was born in 1875. I'm still in my fifties. My eldest great uncle was born in 1872... And so on. Best wishes.

[@caeruleusvm7621]

@@robertcottam9000 That really is extraordinary. I'm in my early 60s, and people are amazed to hear that my one grandfather was interned in a British concentration camp as a child. He went on to have five sons, who all volunteered to fight on Britain's side in WW2.

[@ronbunn1349]

Nicely done Christian; history is always more nuanced than the narratives that gain traction in the popular conscious.

[@redcoathistory]

Cheers, Ron.

[@friendlyfire7861]

Thanks for directing me this way and to the books and article!

[@redcoathistory]

No worries, glad you found it interesting.

[@raymondpiper8294]

I found it interesting that drummers were used to relay orders by bugle . Infact my father jioned the coldstream gaurds at the age of 14 as a drummer , but infact played the official last post for king George v1 at the tower of london . The newspapers show a young gaurdsman flanked by Beefeaters . The title was ,16 yr old drummer Piper plays last post for king at Tower .

[@wizardapprenticeIV]

from what I understand of it, as British infantry tactics transitioned from Napoleonic close order fighting in line, to more open order light infantry tactics (as afforded by developments in firearms) drums where incompatible with relaying orders in such an environment and so bugles where used (as which had previously been used in light companies), though the rank of drummer remained for sake of tradition. The fact about your father is incredibly interesting also.

[@raymondpiper8294]

@@wizardapprenticeIV my dad ended up as Drum major for the 3RRF .When he passed away 8yrs ago i inherited all his srmy photoi albums . He was wounded in Northern Ireland 1970 ...plenty of photos of him shaking hands with the Queen king Fredrick of Denmark etc and of course leading the mass bands at the different tattoos . As a army brat we were in kenya malta gibralter Germany and many more postings ...He was a great soldier and one of a dying breed .Many thanks for showing interest my friend .

[@montycasper4300]

The 24th had been in South Africa for a couple of years prior to the Zululand invasion so its highly unlikely any of the men were less than mid teens. Most colonial conflicts were no quarter by either side and there are several accounts of Zulu wounded being put to the bayonet after Rorkes Drift and other battles. After Ulundi the Native Contingents were released to finish the Zulu wounded on the battlefield.

[@Briselance]

"there are several accounts of Zulu wounded being put to the bayonet after Rorkes Drift and other battles" Damn... :-SSS

[@anthonywood323]

Some tribes in North America did the same slitting of the belly, etc. for the same reason...releasing the spirit of the dead person.

[@redcoathistory]

I didn’t know that. Thanks for sharing 👍🏼

[@doverbeachcomber]

On very contentious historical topics like this one, you have to put aside the secondary sources like Morris and the two others the presenter mentions. It’s not that they’re bad; ‘The Washing of the Spears” is a great read and well-documented, and I’m sure the others are worthwhile too. But all are interpretations of the historical record, not the historical record itself. For that, you have to go back to the original sources-letters, orders, dispatches, courts-martial transcripts, official reports, memoirs, and every other scrap of documentary info. Then you have to sift further. Did the record-writer actually witness what he reported on? Was he in a good spot to see everything, or just a little? How soon after the event did he put things down in writing? What biases might have influenced him? And so on and so forth. It’s hard, often frustrating work, which is why relatively few people do it.

[@eardwulf785]

I read something similar about the aftermath of 'Custers Last Stand' Many of the dead soldiers were found mutilated but the Indians would cut out the eyes and sever limbs so that when the Indian eventually died and went to the afterlife the dead soldiers wouldn't be able to recognise them and exact revenge.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

Interesting. I've not heard that before, but Im not too clued up on that campaign.

[@retriever19golden55]

The Sioux/Cheyenne practiced ritual mutilation just as Earòwulf said. The women mostly did this after a battle, and the Natives took anything useful, such as clothes and boots, and of course weapons. Almost all were mutilated, with the exception of a few who fell alone away from the main battle, and just got missed, such as the newspaper man Mark Kellogg. Captain Myles Keogh for some reason wasn't, even though all his clothes and equipment had been taken, except his socks. Some believe it was because of the Padré Pio medal he wore around his neck, some think it was a way to honor his exceptional bravery. Tom Custer was singled out for more than ritual mutilation; his head was pounded into jelly...someone was seriously angry.

[@zulupenman]

The little drummer boy was definitely Joe McEwan, aged 16 ...he was attached to the quartermaster wagons of the No.1 column... he was found tied up by his boots with his throat slit, those are don't know about Zulu customs and rituals will misunderstand what happened, basically that was a show of mercy as performed by many soldiers in battle, especially the Romans... once the throat is slit quickly and main arteries cut ... it's a very fast death and virtually painless... this was present a lot of battles with the younger looking soldiers or sons of frontier fighters... remember the Zulu's were also involved in stimulants before battle similar to the Nazis with crystal meth that Hitler gave them when they advanced on Poland .. most of the Vermach didn't sleep for days, in this case the Zulu warriors used something called "red dust" some sort of Lysergic Acid Diethylomide stored in usually a small empty cowhorn and swallowed prior to the battle.... probably and or / either dagga (strong psychedelic marijuana) ... this definitely made them ultra edgy and hyper and hallucinative. ... and more aggressive ..

[@jimhicksuk]

I had heard similar accounts of this version from other guides. I’m back in March and want to do the retreat route back towards Fugitive Drift.

[@martynpope8218]

Ian Knight went back to this in one of his books. They were termed as "little drummer boys" by many of the troops on the ground who, in the pitch black must've been outraged as well as shocked. Knight ventures that there were no "boys" in camp at the time but young men who were indeed drummers, part of the 1/24 regimental band. They were around 17 or 18ys. However we shall never know whether they were hung on butcher's hooks as they were reported to be. By the time the Impi regiments got into the camp they're bloodlust was up. They were stabbing everything & anything inc sacks of grain, horses & even dogs that were pets of the Co. Commanders. It doesn't stretch the imagination too far to realize that these young men, although not boys, children in the true sense were treated in barbaric fashion.

[@davidw.robertson448]

The fog of war covers many a sin. We are rarely told what actually goes on in such conditions. One can only imagine, given the nature of war and the nature of man unleashed. One cruelty justifies another on an ascending scale until anything goes.

[@idontknowpreston3673]

I've got to review your play list because KZbin is casual about notifications to me. This was your usual Informative video. Thanks.✌

[@redcoathistory]

Awesome! Thank you!

[@peterbrown1012]

When I joined the army in 1971, we still had junior soldiers.

[@gimpygunner7327]

Still had them in 1990 Peter. I was one of them.👍😎🇬🇧💪

[@Briselance]

@@gimpygunner7327 As far as I know, one is still able to join at 16 years old at minimum, with a duly-signed written authorization from the parents or legal tutors.

[@davepangolin4996]

I have listened to and read everything I can on this fascinating battle. I have recently wondered why the Isandlwhana mountain wasn’t used as a lookout post for the British.. ascent doesn’t look overly tricky for a young soldier … would you not think that immediately ? The camp seemed keen to send out pickets but not to use the Big Elephant behind the tents ?

[@lyndoncmp5751]

It is deceiving. The very top of Isandlwana still cannot look over the escarpment. The escarpment is higher. The best lookout posts were the high points on the escarpment and further afield..... which is exactly where there were vedettes placed. Zulu movements were actually seen by these vedettes. 👍

[@davepangolin4996]

Thanks. Have you been ? If so how would you rate it ? I really must do it one day

[@lyndoncmp5751]

Dave, No I have not been, sadly. Would love to though. Just read about the escarpment actually being higher. 👍

[@lyndoncmp5751]

Robert, You've actually claimed to the top? Cool. How difficult, or easy, was it to get up there?

[@lyndoncmp5751]

Thank you very much for that description, Robert. Brilliant. Id love to go there some time, and Id try and get up there too 😁

[@watch-Dominion-2018]

how did they make the metal for the spears?

[@joaoconchilha2231]

You're the man, good contain, 👍👍, as always.

[@redcoathistory]

Thanks 👍

[@johnvan6082]

What happened to the wounded Zulus at Roarke's Drift ?

[@beachcomber1able]

Probably got their skulls caved in with a rifle butt, if they were lucky.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

They were killed. They would have been mostly mortally wounded anyway with Martini Henry bullet holes in them. Otherwise they would have crawled off, stumbled off or dragged off. Only the very seriously wounded, likely mortally, were found at Rorkes Drift.

[@paulkelly8456]

I imagine exactly the same as happened to Jacobite Highland rebels after Culloden.

[@davidalexander330]

bayonetted

[@Bullet-Tooth-Tony-]

A video on Captain Young Husbands last stand at Isandlwana would be good 👍

[@lyndoncmp5751]

Hi Tony, You are right. More should be told 👍

[@retriever19golden55]

Yes, I agree. For some reason, he seems to be left out of many modern accounts. He isn't even included in Zulu Dawn. His ferocious and hopeless bayonet charge of course had no impact on the outcome of the battle, but it deserves to be remembered.

[@catholicmilitantUSA]

Nice video Chris! I had no idea there was a controversy about drummer boys; this is the first time I'm hearing it. I'm not sure about floggings being necessarily administered by men; in Sharpe's Tiger Sharpe is definitely flogged by boys (Bernard Cornwell specifically says boys administered flogging as a small show of mercy during the punishment.) I also remember Lance Corporal Jones saying in the first episode of Dad's Army that he had signed up in 1884 as a drummer boy when he was 16 (and I know Perry and Croft took their history very seriously in making Dad's Army) and he refers to himself during that campaign relieving General Gordon as a "Boy Soldier" so 16 sounds reasonable enough. I don't think by the 1870s literal small children served as they had done in days gone by, but I honestly don't know. But what about Makin's testimony? The testimony about the hooks seems to come from multiple eyewitnesses...

[@redcoathistory]

Hi mate, great to hear from you. Sharpes Tiger is set in the very early days of the 19th century so even if Cornwell is correct, the 75 year between that and Isandlwana means it is fairly irrelevant. With regards Dad's Army, I can't comment as to how good the research of the writers was but yeah, joining at 16 as a boy soldier sounds reasonable. Probably would be at least 17 or 18 before seeing combat. As I think I say in the film - it is the pre-teens that we are mainly concerend with. Hope that helps.Speak soon, Chris.

[@zephyer-gp1ju]

Boys are often shown on the British Navy sailing ships. When did stop using them?

[@jamesflint9584]

even now in 2022 it would seem barbaric what they did to the dead , But look on both sides of coin the zulu warriors had many traditions. Have an open mind and understand why they took unforms and preformed rituals on dead at Isandlwana: the zulu warriors deserve a lot more respect. Keep up the great work on this channel. Love watching these vids.

[@billredding2000]

Their "traditions" is what makes them primitive violent savages, plain & simple. Africa never amounted to anything...still hasn't. And that's not counting the same savages infesting American cities, with all THEIR "tribal violence." So nothing's changed...not matter the time or place. Wherever they are, they're the same they've always been. Absolutely NO "respect" for them here. -- BR

[@robanderson473]

I have a relative on my Mum's side who copped a spear in the arm at iNyzane, the same day as Isandlwana and a friend of mine has a great great uncle who was in H coy 1st Btn, 24th Regt, at Isandlwana. Enough said about H company, one can only imagine.

[@redcoathistory]

Hi Rob, I have a film about Nyezane - I went their. Have a butchers on my page if you are interested. Thanks

[@robanderson473]

@@redcoathistory Cool! And hiya Redcoat.I'm not on social media except Comments I make on videos and talk back radio! Can I find it on KZbin?

[@redcoathistory]

@@robanderson473 Yes mate - you are on my channel now. I am the guy who makes the video you just commented on 👍

[@raymondpilarczyk2773]

I think the saying that anyone who judges the masses by an individual is an idiot holds true, but what about the select individuals who lose control in something as horrific as war. In other words, I do not believe the Zulu as a whole tortured anyone, but it is quite possible there were a few disturbed individuals not representational of the whole who might have

[@lyndoncmp5751]

Yes, law of averages. All 20,000 can't have behaved perfectly.

[@bengreen171]

this is actually a really good example of why it's really important to consider more 'postmodern' philosophical ideas and the validity of the various Critical Theory approaches taken by academia today. It's an illustration of how a 'western centric' view of the world can be very misleading and can perpetuate bad ideas, simply through a misunderstanding of cultural practises. The way non European, non Christian people have been (and unfortunately in many cases still are) portrayed as barbaric, simply because their social mores are unfamiliar and strange to western eyes, is something we should be at pains to correct. I wonder how many Victorians read about the battle and were 'shocked' by the 'brutal savages' behaviour...while not batting an eye at the idea that the British army might have sent young boys out there to do 'adult' work....

[@georgegonzalez-rivas3787]

Hey, I read WAshing of the Spears too, and what you describe as 'desecrating the dead' was clearly reported as the 'manner of death'. Zulus would overwhelm an enemy and HOLD HIM DOWN while others would open his belly and inflict death wounds. You don't have to hold down a corpse. Yeah, I know it's dangerous to speak ill of the dark-skinned victims of colonialism. But that NOT what the Zulus were. THey were a brutal expansionist empire that used terrors such as mass impalement, to drive entire populations of people just as black before them. By 1879 all of South Africa was filled with black refugees of Zulu incursions. Cry me a frickin' river.

[@iainsanders4775]

Ie. the Mfecane, etc..

[@philhutchings7354]

Opening the belly of a corpse prevents bloating and allows/attracts animals to feed on the remains. It was actually part of their religious rights. To a foreign army it would appear as a desecration. Worlds and cultures colliding. Either way being stuck by a spear in a melee would be terrible.

[@FiveLiver]

He's gone native.

[@georgegonzalez-rivas3787]

@@philhutchings7354 What a load of revisionist/apologist crap. The bellies opened belonged to struggling captives.

[@edward1676]

NO WORST THAN WHAT THE BRITISH DID...

[@scettybagle5552]

Id like to know what they expected you can't just show up in uniform shoulder a weapon and kill the enemy and then when the tied turns just throw your hands up and be like oh im just a wee little lad you can't kill me, because they're gonna crush your skull before that sentence is finished.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

It didn't matter what you were or what you had at Isandlwana. If you were just a cook, you were killed. If you were a pet dog or horse, you were killed.

[@aaronberridge431]

War is brutal by its very nature. Both sides are there to kill each other by fare means or foul, nothing is off the table. If you don't understand that your in the wrong job.

[@Briselance]

"Both sides are there to kill each other by fare means or foul, nothing is off the table." That doesn't mean anyone has to torture or wantonly kill anyone, or that anyone could ever be morally or legally justified to do so. No one with that kind of penchant for sick fantasies and gross, hard-core sadism has any place in any armed force, or anywhere else besides as a patient/inmate of a high-security mental asylum or jail. People who mistake being a soldier at war with having absolute free reign to commit any kind of atrocity have no grasp whatsoever of what a soldier is.

[@aaronberridge431]

@@Briselance i don't think the zulus gave a s## t. Their house, their rules.

[@SuziQ499]

I think you have to go by previous history and that shows the Zulu did indeed torture their enemies , Many people don't understand that the Zulu had a history before the British and fought many wars with other tribes.

[@michaelwhisman]

I find that Internet armchair warriors have not even actually read a book about their subject. Few of them are veterans of any kind.

[@outpostraven]

Great video

[@SeanRCope]

Feel a kinship with those young men. Join the Sea Cadets at 12 and served making leading petty officer by 17. The first time I went to General Quarters for real I was 15 my post the flying bridge 1983 Bering Sea aboard the WHEC 720 Sherman. I went to sea every summer as long as I could. I never wanted to be just a kid. Oh, and Step Dad was a Ogre. I suppose that’s the most popular reason.

[@GRACEORT]

Not sure anyone can categorically prove that no soldier was tortured or not because there are no witnesses who made it out alive that were in the thick of things long enough to sit and watch the Battle unfold. They we’re running away and their entire focus was to survive, not sit and look down on the Melee below them studying and witnessing such things. We do know that the Zulu DID perform torture, it’s not bad if it was against their ethics or Custom. Besides this, what is torture? Undue suffering. Many Soldiers would not have died from injury alone. Many were ran down whilst injured and then no doubt pressed upon whilst seeking mercy only to be clubbed or stabbed relentlessly or as pointed out in the video hung up in unnecessary painful ways to then be further subjected to disembowelment whilst still alive. Still thing no torture took place? Let’s be real here …..

[@lexevo]

Good point. I agree that the British would’ve had at least 500 wounded, that were simply executed. And execution, however they did would be a form of torture. Had the Zulus taken prisoners, many Zulus would’ve been treated the same at rorkes drift and Ulundi.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

T. H. Makin of the 1st Dragoon Guards wrote in his diary that he saw “large wooden structures like a double scaffold, where two other boys had been hung up by their hands to the hooks and, as they had decomposed, their bodies had fallen to the ground". Why would they have been hung up if not for torture. We cannot dismiss accounts such as the above. They were there, we were not.

[@GRACEORT]

@@lyndoncmp5751 exactly, can’t refute evidence like that. Torture was not uncommon in Zulu Culture. One of the best examples was when during Shakas reign he had the old woman witch doctor impounded in a Hut, almost devoid of all light and two starved hyenas locked in with her. Unable to defend herself with nothing more than feet,fists and shouts over days and unable to sleep the hyenas grew braver as they sneaked up and snapped at her, taking samples of her flesh until the inevitable happened and she succumbed to her terrible fate. There was practically nothing left when they released the hyenas. Or when they impaled those for punishment on spikes, their own people or not. There are other accounts of captured British Soldiers being tied up and slowly tortured through the night, their screaming heard for miles sending many British Troops nearby into fear. I could keep going. Plenty of testimonies in the many books and witnesses who were there. Isandlwana would have been no different for sure

[@lyndoncmp5751]

stratos fun, Good examples. I really don't know how this myth that the Zulus were morally perfect and would never possibly torture anyone started. It's bizarre.

[@Briselance]

@@lexevo "execution, however they did would be a form of torture" Maybe. But executing a prisoner with one quick and clean strike, and making him suffer for as long as possible before ending him are two vastly different things.

[@johncarter8842]

As an African like the Zulu but from a somali descendent maybe we are alot different from each other in war ethics but in my part of Africa there was a code of war similar to the chivalry in Europe and I will not dare to say somali warriors before the british colonialism or during or eve after abide it but it was highly rewarding thing to play according for that rule the Zulu in contrast were a proto emprial state they turned other african tribal in the southern edge of Africa and drove some of them into Zimbabwe and other parts near there people tend to see us African as clown race but my psychology there won't be any way better than the british if I wasn't knowing the religious ceremonies and rituals of the zulu people beacuse desecration of the dead is disgusting thing properly steaming from the Islamic faith and the Zulu that time or maybe now follow the african folk traditions but any the Zulu put up a great fight defending there freedom and the british empire should studied the Zulu as extensively they studied other Africans that maybe would helped them avoid alot of missaunderatings and some brutal reprsseals in southern Africa

[@mazambane286]

john carter from Somalia? Yeah right.

[@johncarter8842]

@@mazambane286 yeah

[@mazambane286]

@@johncarter8842 That must have been Mo Farah's original name before he anglised it.

[@johncarter8842]

@@mazambane286 Funny I like the humar

[@mazambane286]

@@johncarter8842 Have you ever been to Africa? More importantly to Southern Africa?

[@therightarmofthefreeworld4703]

Cultural differences are interesting. Cutting open the belly's of the dead would seem disrespectful to Westerner's, but if it's for the purpose of letting the soul escape, then it would seem the intention is actually a mark of respect to the fallen.

[@GaudiaCertaminisGaming]

Oh please. This was done to the living.

[@LoverboyB_Pookie]

@@GaudiaCertaminisGaming who cares, they invaded for no reason

[@retriever19golden55]

@@LoverboyB_Pookie The soldiers had no say in where they marched and what they did. The whole invasion took place because Sir Bartle Frere wanted to make a name for himself, against the wishes of the Crown. Because communications between London and South Africa took so long, he thought he'd have a glorious victory before anyone in England could respond. It's the old idea that it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission.

[@effbee56]

My understanding is that the Zulu impis were professional in a sense and respected even enemies who fought well. It was apparently standard practice to let the souls of their dead comrades and respected enemies to be released from their mortal remains. So I think the torture e stories are likely untrue.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

When you have 20,000 men then you are going to have a fair number amongst them that are sadists. I can't imagine there were ZERO atrocities. Apparently, some bearded soldiers had their chins chopped off and taken away as trophies.

[@michaelkennedy3372]

Lol...yeah the zulus were known for being great humanitarians 😄

[@simonhall8011]

No bodies of drummer boys were found at Isandlwana, only the corpses of drummer men (i.e. 18 years or older) because the Zulus always ate the boys. Drummer boys were regarded as a delicacy, being the main constituent of a post-battle celebration dish called 'Uphuthu child.' The recipe can be obtained from any good Zulu chef and is as follows: Blend 2 kilos of maize, 3 kilo spinach, 4 kilos amadumbe (sweet potato) with 8 litres of amasi (sour milk), and then rest the mix in the sun for six hours. Next, de-bone two drummer boys and slice the flesh into chewable strips each about the size of a banana. Add these drummer strips to the mix and cook in a large cast iron pot over a low heat for 12 hours. Once done, remove the pot from the heat, leave to stand for 30 minutes then serve to the troops with generous portions of ujeqe (steamed bread). Hope this clears up any confusion.

[@redcoathistory]

Clear as day. Ngiyabonga mfowethu

[@lyndoncmp5751]

Hi Redcoat, I agree the young drummer boy thing is a myth yes, but I can't believe that in amongst 20,000 men there weren't a fair number of sadists in the Zulu ranks who probably did carry out some atrocities and even perhaps torture. It seems impossible to me that none did. There is this: T.H. Makin of the 1st Dragoon Guards wrote in his diary that he saw “large wooden structures like a double scaffold, where two other boys had been hung up by their hands to the hooks and, as they had decomposed, their bodies had fallen to the ground". Why would they have been hung up by their hands if not for some kind of torture? The Zulus did, after all, kill every camp pet and horse they got their hands on as well, so they clearly revelled in butchery. Sad, but true. ☹️

[@jackjones1249]

Yeah and im sure the british army were boy scouts when it came to treatment of prisoners or wounded.

[@alexandersmall7380]

That’s not what we are saying here. In the pacification of the Indian Mutiny it is well known that the British used torture to respond to the massacres. But this isn’t whataboutism, we are focusing on the Zulu in this episode, and the British in another.

[@jackjones1249]

@@alexandersmall7380 I know what we are focusing on. The narrator says he couldnt find any evidence of torture but the guy above said he cant believe there wouldnt be atleast a few sadist zulus who carried out atrocities. Thats his opinion which is fine but my point is, what does it matter as im sure both sides did similar bad things during the war.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

jack jones, Dont panic!! Don't panic Mr Mainwaring!! 😉 This video is specifically about what the Zulus are argued to have done. Or not done. At Isandlwana. Seeing as the Zulus butchered every living thing in the camp except for the cattle (we haven't addressed what they did to the NNC.... decapitations I have read...) I have no doubts there would have been cruelty, torture etc in a huge group of 20,000 men with their blood up. Cheers 👍.

[@Briselance]

@@jackjones1249 "but my point is, what does it matter as im sure both sides did similar bad things during the war" "but my point is, what does it matter" It does indeed matter, as the descendant of one side - the British and, more generally, Westerners - are constantly pointed at, told to be ashamed, etc. of what their kin did, while the descendants of the other side - in this case, the formerly colonized people - are constantly excused for what their ancestors also did. We can't have today's Westerners lambasted for what happened before them, while today's migrants (generally speaking) are never ever told that their ancestors were no saints or angels either.

[@peterjones7673]

A very good explanation as always.

[@louisavondart9178]

Demonising the enemy is standard propaganda practice. How can you justify a brutal war of aggression otherwise?

[@jamescollins2615]

He got done in

[@angloaust1575]

No age limit in those days for soldiers!

[@torbendinesen7121]

they ate him for dinner

[@RobertTaylor-sw7wj]

All political correctness now,to make out that the Zulus were not savages,but honourable nice guys.ha ha.

[@rickybell2190]

Not at all. The traditional way of the zulus has been written about for decades.

[@robertcottam9000]

Please don't be silly sausage. Or if you insist on being so, stick to the dailies Express and Mail. Pip pip.

[@Stantheman848]

Brexit voter alert.

[@woollyrhino2558]

Honourable and nice ? Like you ?

[@Rswipes83]

The Zulu’s conquered the surrounding areas during their reign but they were noble when disemboweling and cutting up their enemies.

[@krimark9055]

You enter their house without consent, and you say such..

[@redcoathistory]

Feel free to watch the film - that comment sounds like you didn't actually watch. Enjoy!

[@phillawrence5148]

Well, if youre gonna have kids in army, whos worse?

[@redcoathistory]

It might help to watch the film 👍🏼

[@dennismiddlebrooks7027]

So many Zulus were killed or wounded (usually meaning death at the hands of their comrades) at that battle that I would not be surprised if British soldiers were tortured out of rage.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

Absolutely. In a mass of 20,000 warriors, many with their blood still up, at least some of them would have been doing some unsavoury acts.

[@adrianbrown1492]

Always looking to excuse.

[@redcoathistory]

Am I? Please list all examples.

[@adrianbrown1492]

@@redcoathistory Sorry I was being a little obtuse. I meant society as a whole not you personally.

[@philipcallicoat3147]

The high cost of Empire.... Sadly, the world is the same today as it was back then.💔

[@tombogan03884]

How can Europeans who "looted" enemy dead, condemn natives for doing the same thing ?

[@redcoathistory]

Did you enjoy the film?

[@ianrankin1293]

Dont think he actually watched tbh

[@snotnosewilly99]

In my very strong opinion....the host needs a new barber. Possibly Robert Redford's old barber.

[@geoffreycarson2311]

ITS ALL OBLM NOW!!!! AND PARANOIA POLOTICS !!!!YOU HAD TO BE THERE TO KNOW !!!😣g

[@spockblocked6718]

Desecration by zulu... it was their culture. Oh, okay, it's alright then. Red coats should have adopted the same custom. Why would that be an out-cry? Just being progressive.

[@williamwallacedebruce9221]

propaganda to save face? did I hear you say!!

[@chukwunomsootusi3155]

The British writers simply wrote what they thought would happen based on their own treatment of defeated peoples. It was more a reflection of the British military's attitude to their enemies rather than the reality on ground.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

Actually in the early skirmishes the British took prisoners and even let them go. After the war, the Zulus killed more fellow Zulus in the subsequent civil war than were ever killed by the British.

[@krimark9055]

If your people didn't invade then those kids would not have been killed.. so good on them

[@redcoathistory]

You clearly didn't watch the film so please watch before commenting next time.

[@johnpryce2011]

What sticks in some people craw is the the fact that the Zulus won that one 😮

[@lyndoncmp5751]

That only makes it more interesting. It doesnt stick in people's craw. We hardly debate one sided British victories like Khambula, Inyezane, Gingindlovu and Ulundi. A British defeat makes it more interesting, not annoying.

[@johnroche7541]

What people forget is that in the opening 48 hours of the Anglo-Zulu War there was 3 battles Isandlwana,Nyezane River and Rorkes Drift. Modern historians are putting the combined Zulu KIA from these 3 battles from between 2,500 to 3,000 warriors. Before the hostilities the Zulu army was estimated at 20,000-25,000 warriors. I dont have his exact quote verbatim but after hearing of Zulu KIA King Chetchwayo said something along the lines "A great assegai has been thrust into the heart of the nation". The Zulu regiments that were so devastating at Isandlawana would later take horrific heavy casualties at the Battle of Khambula. It is reported that the Zulu war cry at this battle was "We are the boys from Isandlawana". The Zulu victory at Isandlawana came at a heavy price with historians estimating that 1,000 to 1,500 Zulu warriors were killed. I always think Zulu casualties from these battles could be higher as the Zulu witch doctors would not have the medical skills and technology to treat serious gun wounds. The British IKIA from Isandlawana is also mostly erroneously depicted as 1,200 to 1,400 British scarlet tunic soldiers. This is incorrect. There was just less than 900 whites(British army and colonials) killed at Isandlawana. There was 350-400 native blacks(disgruntled Zulus and members from tribes that had grievances with thevZulus) serving with the British that were also killed.

[@hannanrahman3648]

No because how doses he no it was he there do the records exist eney more and just because you believe him as he is your friend that doesn’t mean shit only the parts nos the truth so sorry don’t believe you

[@sweynforkbeard8857]

Oh...I see, the Zulus were not "desecrating the dead", they were "honoring" them. What a load of nonsense. I guess in the same logical thinking, we could say that the British soldiers were not "murdering wounded", but engaging in "mercy killings" due to the lack of adequate medical facilities. It's all about words and framing with you types.

[@wattyler9806]

Well said and so true.

[@robertreynolds6072]

Weren't the Zulus drugged up to the eyeballs and worked up into a bloodthirsty frenzy for battle? If so, anything was legal.

[@paolodechipiece1027]

I was told the Zulu war was all about a disagreement about a new McDonalds location, but I have my doubts about the authenticity of this theory.

[@Bhead69]

Butchered. The end.

[@Michaelkayslay]

I was a little drummer boy and I was at this battle . I can confirm this was true

[@krimark9055]

😂😂😂

[@abrahamedelstein4806]

Without even watching the video I'm going to guess, "Obviously they died brutally and horribly, were raped and killed or sold into slavery and died of some exotic disease." Now to probably have my biases confirmed, *presses play*

[@warickhunt4147]

Tough shit shouldn't be in other people's countries stealing their resources

[@lyndoncmp5751]

That's what the Zulus did. The Zulus invaded that 'country' and took it off those who were living there before them. Zulus are not indigenous to South Africa.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

Craig Indeed. What 'resources' were in Zululand? The British did not even settle in Zululand. It remained Zululand after the war. The British didn't occupy it.

[@Briselance]

" shouldn't be in other people's countries stealing their resources" Sure, 'cause that justifies all kind of crap, eh? Hypocrisy is alive and well, I see.

[@TheOverlordOfProcrastination]

This video does smack of wokeness, mind.

[@redcoathistory]

Yes I’m super woke.

[@robertthomas3777]

Can’t let the facts spoil a good story - propaganda and falsehoods to incite disgust and furore towards a pagan uncivil heathen - Zulu. That’s what has been done forever. Just like WMD’s per Desert Storm. Thanks mate. Good stuff. 🇦🇺🦘👍