Isle of Pabay: Stamps or Cinderellas? Episode 135

Join Snail Mail with Smokey as he unveils one of the earliest postage stamps he acquired. As he delves into the intricacies of this exquisite gold foil stamp, Smokey endeavors to determine whether it's a legitimate postage stamp or a Cinderella.
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Smokey
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[@KensStampCollection]

Fascinating. Thanks for all your research

[@SnailmailwithSmokey]

@@KensStampCollection Thank you Ken!

[@lindaf4968]

Interesting discussion. Thanks!

[@SnailmailwithSmokey]

Thank you so much!

[@JudySteinpas]

This was truly interesting to me..I was surprised that it was..thanks for digging into its history.😊

[@SnailmailwithSmokey]

@@JudySteinpas Thank you so much, Judy!

[@happybunny1329]

Pabay stamps were issued as a local post by Clive Feigenbaum - he was a very colourful character... worth looking him up!! Colnect says the Isle of Pabay was one of the only Scottish Islands that was genuinely granted permission for a local post, and is one of the few islands that Feigenbaum legitimately produced stamps for. They are classed as cinderellas. :)

[@SnailmailwithSmokey]

@@happybunny1329 Thanks for the information! Hope you have a wonderful day!

[@schuey089]

Hi Smokie, interesting video, I have a couple of these stamps I'm my collection along with other islands around Britain, all in a separate album as I also have coins & banknotes too from another island! I would class them as Cinderella's, Have a great weekend, take care

[@SnailmailwithSmokey]

I am so happy that you have some of these stamps as well as coins and banknotes from other islands, I might have to look for those. Thanks for watching and have a wonderful weekend!

[@phils473]

Well Pabay is a new place to me 🙂 I would say that first 2/6 stamp is a Cinderella. You can really get into these island issues, especially from those around Britain. I have a good number of stamps from Herm Island, Lundy, and Bernera Island. None of them are listed in Scott's. I think some sprang up as a fringe item for tourists (the "currency" on Lundy stamps is the Puffin, which I find cute and cool 🙂). Keep up the excellent work, my friend! 👍

[@SnailmailwithSmokey]

I agree that you can really get into these Island issues as the more I learn about them the more interesting they become to me. Perhaps a new "topical" collection. Thanks for watching and have a great day!

[@stephenogier7499]

Hello Smokey, What an interesting question this raises. I tend to agree with you for the most part concerning whether the stamps of Pabay are stamps or cinderellas. As you say, a cinderella has no postal validity, and these stamps clearly do. To me, the stamps are what I would consider to be LOCAL STAMPS, that is stamps that are valid for postage within a limited area. There are a number of places around the world that fall into this category. Some in the UK are Lundy (an island of the southwest tip of England), Staffa (also in Scotland) and several others. These are mostly islands and the stamps pay for transport of mail to the mainland where normal postage needs to be applied for onward mail delivery. As such, they are (in my opinion) stamps, however, being local stamps they are not listed in most catalogues. (There may be specialised catalogues that list them, but I don't know of any, but I'm sure there must be a focus group somewhere that at least produces a stamp list of issues.) So, if we agree that these are real stamps because they could fulfil some postal function, even if only locally, that sort of sounds easy, but actually it just gets more complicated from there. Look at the following examples: 1. In 2000 Australia introduced a goods and services tax (GST, basically the same as VAT or Value Added Tax in the UK). While GST should be added to the cost of goods and services within Australia, goods or services provided to overseas clients are GST exempt. To show this, Australia Post started issuing two types of stamps - those intended for domestic use and those intended for mail overseas. The latter all have a blue tag with 'International Post in white. Technically (at least in my opinion), this should mean that any Australian stamps without the International Post tag should be considered local stamps as they are only supposed to be used in a local area. Admittedly that's a pretty big area, but it is still limited. Despite this, the world's major catalogues continue to list both Australia's domestic and international stamps. (As far as I know, the only other country that has gone down the path of producing domestic and International stamps is Vanuatu.) 2. Charnie has mentioned recognition by / membership of the UPU as a criterion for identifying whether a stamp should be classified as a stamp and listed in a catalogue. While this is perhaps a good starting place, it also breaks down a bit. Take for example the stamps of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus or the now defunct South African homelands (Bophuthatswana, Ciskei, Transkei and Venda) and perhaps even such places as Biafra, Katanga and South Kasai. While being nominally independent, their independence is/was not widely recognised nor were they members of the UPU and yet mail bearing their stamps was accepted and the stamps can be found listed in most major catalogues. The region of Iraqi Kurdistan also issues its own stamps, separate from Iraqi stamps. I have used these stamps on international mail from the Kurdistan region and the mail has been delivered to its recipients overseas, yet these stamps are not listed in catalogues. I'm not sure whether the stamps of the Republic of Artsakh (formerly known as Nagorno Karabakh) are listed in catalogues, but I have received mail from there. The situation with Transnistria is possibly similar. 3. Stamperija is a company which I think is situated in Lithuania and produces many, many stamps for countries such as Central African Republic, Chad, Djibouti, Solomon Islands, Burundi, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Togo, Niger and the list goes on. These stamps are a little dubious as many catalogues will state that they are recognised by the various postal authorities (whatever that means) but are not available at post offices in the respective countries. How accurate this is, I don't know. I do know that the stamps produced for Burundi are largely made available and are used for postal purposes. They are listed in Scott, Michel, Yvert and Tellier, and on Colnect and Stampworld, but they are not listed in Stanley Gibbons. So, how many catalogues have to list a stamp for it to be a stamp? The fact that SG doesn't fully list stamps from many places since they were 'issued in excess of postal requirements', does not necessarily disqualify them from being considered to be stamps. By that definition, most modern stamps are issued in excess of postal requirements. Since few people write letters, the few that are posted only really need those nasty postal labels and postal requirements are met without any stamps at all. 4. When the Soviet Union was breaking up in the early 1990s, many stamps were produced for various member countries, and also various regions of the former Soviet Union such at Batumi, Tuva, Komi, Tatarstan and many, many more. At the time it was unclear whether these were valid for postage or not, though it now seems to be most unlikely that they ever were and these issues are regarded as illegal issues. Interestingly, the government of Tuva (an area of Russia near Mongolia) did authorise a number issues until the central Russian government banned their use and listed these also as illegal issues with the UPU. Since then, illegal issues that purport to have been issued by many countries (though primarily smaller countries that are less inclined to spend most if not more than their GDP fighting the producers of such material in courts around the world in a game of legal Waka mole) have been released. Again some of the smaller African countries (among others) come to mind. As these are not valid for postage anywhere (perhaps with the exception of the locally authorised Tuvan stamps), we can agree that these are all cinderllas. 5. Lastly there are at least 2 places in Australia that have unilaterally seceded from the country. The two that come to mind are the Province of Bumbunga (in South Australia - see the Wikipedia entry) and the Hutt River Province/Principality (in Western Australia - also see the Wikipedia page), both of which were basically farms whose owners fell out with the Australian government and declared sovereignty. Both issued stamps and in the case of Hutt River, coins and banknotes, not to mention passports were also produced. While I know very little about the stamps of Bumbunga, I did once have a cover from Hutt bearing a Hutt River Province stamp. This was affixed to the back of the envelope while normal Australian stamps were affixed to the front. The use of the Hutt stamp ensured that the envelope would be transported to the nearest post office where it entered the normal mail system. In this case, though basically a novelty, it could be argued that the stamps of Hutt River performed the same function as the stamps of Pabay and should perhaps be regarded as local stamps, though they are usually classed as cinderellas (perhaps incorrectly in my opinion). I could probably come up with a lot more to discuss here, but I have probably waffled on for far too long. At the end of the day, whether we regard such material as stamps, local stamps, cinderellas, labels or something else is to some extent subjective and whatever stance we take, we should be prepared to justify our position as you have done with your Pabay stamp. However, we must also recognise that not everyone may be convinced by our arguments and perhaps we must accept that in the end we may have to agree to disagree with some people.

[@SnailmailwithSmokey]

@@stephenogier7499 Thank you for the really well thought out answer! As always your knowledge of the hobby is valuable and informative. You make a great point about the stamps being local post and I agree that in at least some form they are "real" postage stamps. It would be nice to find someone who has "cataloged" stamps of this type. I did not know about Australia's change in stamps due to the value added tax. Once again thanks for watching and for all of the wonderful information!!

[@GreatStampAdventure]

Hi Smokey! This was a very interesting video, thank you! First of all I didn't have any knowledge about the tiny Isle of Pabay, or that there are actually stamps with its name on them. I don't know what the "official" rules are for a stamp to be an acknowledged "official" postage stamp and whether it involves the UPU. I have to agree with you, however, if a stamp is a stamp bought to pay for the service of postage, it is "more" than a cinderella and can be called a "postage stamp". I found it interesting that one of the first stamps you bought was metallic and shiny and not a "normal" paper stamp, and that it was from a tiny island, in a way forecasting that you are eventually going to collect stamps from micro countries. 🙂

[@SnailmailwithSmokey]

Howdy Charnie! So glad you enjoyed the video. I had never thought about the micro country connection, but you are correct, I do love them. I bought the stamp because I liked its uniqueness and subject matter and I am so happy I was able to find out the story behind it in only eight short years, lol! Have a great day!

[@KensStampCollection]

This is a clear local post. Scott list some of these, but apparently not for this island. Same with rattlesnake island

[@SnailmailwithSmokey]

@@KensStampCollection I agree they are local post. I wish someone would catalog them. Thanks so much for watching!

[@stevetherentguy]

Thanks for the video check out the stamps and history of Lundy Island, similar in many ways and interesting!

[@SnailmailwithSmokey]

@@stevetherentguy I will definitely check out Lundy Island stamps. Thanks for the suggestion and for watching!

[@stephenogier7499]

Just as a PS: You recently did a video on the Satchelland cinderella you produced. Read my other comments and then consider this: Since you (or perhaps Mrs Smokey) is the minister in charge of the ministry of postage, if you decide that one of your cinderellas needs to be applied to all mail to cover the cost of a fee to transport that mail from Satchelland to the nearest USPS post office, then perhaps your cinderella would evolve from being a cinderella to being a local stamp. (Not sure what view the USPS would take on that, though it would probably be negative.) Just a thought

[@SnailmailwithSmokey]

@@stephenogier7499 What an intriguing idea, I guess first we have to decide who is in charge of the ministry of post and then go from there. I will keep you posted. 😀 Have a great weekend!

[@peteowe]

Seems to me these Isle of Pabay stamps are private carrier labels that pay for partial journey. While I don't think they should be considered Cinderella, they aren't UPU recognized either. In my view, these stamps should be considered along with other private mail services that issue stamps as proof of payment. In the end, its up to the individual collector to decide his/her preferences and objectives. Interesting video as always. Thanks Smokey!

[@SnailmailwithSmokey]

@@peteowe Thank you so much for thoughts on these stamps. I agree that they are much more than Cinderellas. I believe you are also correct that each collector can decide for themselves. Have a great day!

[@dougchiu525]

NIce video Smokey. However, I can't consider the Isle Of Pabay item you have an actual postage stamp. To me, an item is considered a postage stamp if they're recognized by a foreign country for cancellation purposes which doesn't seem to apply to I of P. I would use as an example, the Sovereign Military Order or Malta (SMOM). While their stamps aren't listed by Scott or Gibbons, they are listed in many of the European catalogs like Sassone and they do have over 50 bilateral postal agreements with foreign governments. That's my two cents on the subject.

[@SnailmailwithSmokey]

Hello and Thanks for watching! You make a valid point about the stamps not being recognized by a foreign country. definitely something to thank about.