"It's INSANE You Believe This" - Christian DEBATES Three Antinatalists at Once

[@caesarschannel2328]

When the outro music started playing I sincerely hopped it would say that part 4 is coming soon

[@LawrenceAnton]

Livestream coming up of me reacting to all three giving extra info too. Check my Live tab.

[@caesarschannel2328]

​@@LawrenceAntonI'll check it out, thanks for letting me know

[@SuperGlue4321]

Woahh Lawrence.. You were on fire in this one.. 🔥… spot on points. Clear and articulate. Brilliant. ❤

[@LawrenceAnton]

Cheers!

[@dceezy15]

once a person starts asking absurd questions such as "well why is suffering bad?" u just gotta throw ur hands up at that point bc there is no reasoning with a person like that. they're the type to ask "well why is rape bad?" or "well why is stabbing someone to death bad?" like bro gtf out of my face at that point.

[@Stevelives13]

Some people just don't get the overall argument, they'll say that you gain something from suffering. Such as experiencing poverty or hunger makes you appreciate what you have when you have it. Thats kind of a theistic approach (excuse).

[@TheFettuck]

We do learn a lot from suffering. The "touching a hot stove" example is used to explain this to children.

[@birdieculture-2]

People always mix up suffering with pain. Thats why that kid who's got cancer and thanked God for it thought the way he thought. Better yet, they make other people go through them. I cannot believe this is humanity.

[@classicrockfan4906]

@@Andrew-jb2ib That's the point- not being born, means one doesn't suffer, period. In fact, I don't even think the intensity matters, being the fact that never being born hurts no one, end of story. That's why the argument is so hard, it's correct.

[@Dongobog-ps9tz]

"well why is stabbing someone to death bad?" You should probably have an answer to that question actually, it's a bit concerning if you don't.

[@saggyshaggy]

That punk looking guy is not a nihilist. He's a pessimist. Nihilists hold no value. The fact that he feels so strongly about antinatalism and is out there doing something about it, he's showing he holds has value in something. He's not a nihilist

[@saggyshaggy]

@JamesonOJ Nihilists hold no value in anything. The fact that he cared enough to go out and advocate antinatlism shows he values something.

[@classicrockfan4906]

People often think that pessimism is bad because of the idea of being a depressive associated with it. But pessimism just means that there is an inherent negative to life, and thus conclusions like antinatalism would naturally result. Believing in "nothing" is near impossible, and is often a pseudo-intellectual stance. Thus pessimism shouldn't be so easily jettisoned as a label. It should be embraced. It's the most compassionate and hard-nosed philosophy. Not to mention, it's just most accurate with what is the case with a being that understands axiological value.

[@daddy-wg2gz]

By that logic, no sane, fully functional adult can be a nihilist because their very being alive seems to imply that they value life. If nihilists value nothing, can they still value being alive? There are different kinds of nihilism and I think the tatted face punk guy would be an "existential nihilist"; meaning that he thinks there is no objective meaning to existence. That does not necessarily mean that he is a "value nihilist/moral nihilist" meaning that he thinks that no actions can ever be justified in any way. I think the Russian nihilists were also anarchists, so in this context, nihilism more so means 'negation of norms' than 'valuing nothing'. By valuing the absence of procreation, in a sense, he is definitely a 'nihilist' because absence is nothing.

[@JamesonOJ]

@@saggyshaggy optimistic nihilism is a thing. Nihilists can seek happiness in many things and antinatalism is one of those things

[@AmandaConover]

we need the punk guy’s social media!!

[@Unknown-p2u4z]

David Benatar calls himself an Efilist in leaked voice chat kzbin.info/www/bejne/mZfZhp6lhd6Kb5osi=hEPDtWAMbyFzpmU4

[@123495734]

let that guy COOK

[@Villain_Killin_Dylan]

There is no argument that counters antinatalism period

[@anedz4005]

Nihilism does.

[@Villain_Killin_Dylan]

@anedz4005 how so

[@TheFettuck]

Convenience does.

[@anedz4005]

@@Villain_Killin_Dylan The whole argument for AN is based on suffering and how that is bad. But a nihilist would disagree and question why do you think suffering is bad. Why is joy preferable over pain. Nihilism doesn't value anything.

[@Villain_Killin_Dylan]

@anedz4005 sll this does is dismiss the argument. Not counter it or offer a serious rebuttal .

[@naeemna9677]

The world is completely corrupt and broken. There's no hope. It has always been this way. I wish we lived in a classless society

[@LG-oc6zk]

I love my unborn children so much, i will never bring them into this word. Try telling this to natalists... trust me it makes them irate. Well done you guys!! You kept your cool so well and remained so respectful.

[@Aaaa-so3id]

Word!!

[@danielstockley5631]

This universe was likely fine tuned by a creator. Look up the values of the fundamental constants. If just ONE of them was changed slightly then we wouldn't be here, such that the odds of this universe occurring by chance with these exact values are like 1*10 to the power of 120 or 150. In other words, not by chance at all. The atheist's only answer to this is the multiverse hypothesis. That this universe is just one of an infinite number of universes, each with slightly different values. But infinite means infinite. Infinite means that in one universe, a species evolved and became so advanced that it learned to influence the laws of its local universe, to become like Gods by any human estimation. Infinite means that in at least 1 universe, this species (by now possibly having evolved into a single powerful entity for efficiency sake) managed to leave its local universe to influence others in the multiverse. Eventually it became so powerful from what it learned that effectively became regent over the multiverse entirely, having all the eternal time in existence to further evolve and develop its power. At some point it has the power to create and destroy whole universes, even whole new multiverses, at will. It may even have the ability to bend reality such that a loop is created in which it is the original progenitor of everything, setting in motion the cycle that will one day lead to it creating existence all over again. And at some point you would have to concede that from our perspective that being is God. In an INFINITE multiverse (hell, even just a large enough one) this isn't just possible. It isn't just likely. It is inevitable.

[@LG-oc6zk]

@@danielstockley5631 I am Christian but also anti natalist. An intellectual Christian if you will. And i will never have children. God gave me that choice and i will take it

[@danielstockley5631]

@@LG-oc6zk I don't care. But you're not a Christian. Christians can not want kids, but to prescribe this moronic position ideologically goes against scripture. It assumes you know better than God what is good or bad for us, that you've personally assessed existence and concluded there's no point. You are not a Christian.

[@txlyons2937]

@@danielstockley5631 *Ecclesiastes 4:2-3* *Luke 23:29*

[@7erudite.]

Convincing religious people (who believe in the existence of hell) on anti natalism should be more easier because the risk of putting someone ( in your future lineage) in the form of suffering eternally in hell is even greater than suffering finitely in this world.

[@Stevelives13]

He's accusing you of jumping to conclusions yet he's not offering anything at all in a logical refute to disprove you.

[@birdieculture-2]

​@@Andrew-jb2ib You feel life is worth living and making another person exist is totally different. You can think life is worth living but does not mean another person will also think life is worthwhile. There wouldn't be so many suicides then if he who controls the worthwhile-ness of life is the parents. (And technically then no one'd think life isn't worthwhile)

[@birdieculture-2]

@@Andrew-jb2ib "Antinatalism is subjective" Disagree: You go ask 1000 (normal) people (with sound mind) if they like to suffer terminally, die in accidents, be killed etc etc, bet you 100% of them will say no. Are your kids human? If you ever have more kids will they also be human? Yes? Then they are no different to the 1000 people above. Its not subjective its fact if everyone agrees. And they are put in risks of harm, therefore wrong. Btw you don't just go say you have given them "the gift of life". If I tie a bomb to a Christmas present and give it to you, and you cannot reject, would you say I have gifted you? Or would you say I am an ass for giving you a bomb and now one day you will be blown up? Maybe if your kids can reject all the parts they don't want in life then you can still say life is a gift, otherwise its not. Your kids will one day die, they will suffer, they will face hardship, whether they have made their choices correctly. And believe or not, they very well might not like it, whether ur there to see it or not.

[@francisdec1615]

@@Andrew-jb2ib How is it a gift if it might hurt them tremendously and will sure end in them dying anyway? It's like saying it's a gift to give a 5 yo a loaded gun, a box of matches or the keys to a car.

[@txlyons2937]

@@Andrew-jb2ib There are *no* altruistic reasons to have children. This is not a subjective claim; it's a fact. There's no reason to create a child that’s purely for the child's sake -- especially when the child has no say in the matter! You claim you've given your own child "a gift of life," but that isn't true. Life is _not_ a gift. Gifts can be declined, or returned. Life is an imposition that no one ever asked for, not even you.

[@Hatunrumioc]

@Andrew-jb2ib well religions and the people that fill those structures needs a supply of humans to keep them going so of course they will point out the bad aspects of life but then encourage procreation, because those people and structures need a constant supply for their own sake, not because it's actually ethical to have kids.

[@RockTheBoat404]

"Why is suffering bad?" these are the kind of people that are passing on their genes....

[@birdieculture-2]

Yes, its like their brain was hacked or something

[@RockTheBoat404]

@@birdieculture-2 yeah hacked by religion

[@lynm1789]

Only SADISTIC A-holes breed

[@danielstockley5631]

​@@birdieculture-2 Don't worry about other people's brains. You've never really given your position any thought whatsoever. Imagine a dystopic universe where suffering existed but true cognisance of it didn't. Anti-natalism wouldn't have emerged and therefore there could be no ideological attempt to prevent future life and suffering. Sentient beings would be truly trapped in their suffering, such that it wouldn't even serve its evolutionary purpose of incentivising one removing themselves from a suboptimal position or state. Example: Caveman Grug's foot falls into camp-fire while he's asleep. He wakes but doesn't understand what's happening. He just knows its really fucking bad. 'Oh well, Grug try to sleep now", then he closes his eyes but whinces in agony all night as his foot is roasted to nothing but bone and charcoal flesh. He soon dies of shock before the sun comes up. What I'm saying is, suffering clearly serves a purpose (let's just ignore for now the philosophical implications of purpose being hard wired into existence). In your case, you owe your entire retarded philosophy to suffering. A perceived lack of meaning in the cosmos seems to give you plenty of meaning. I'd accuse you of also having a hacked brain but that would require a brain as prerequisite.

[@danielstockley5631]

​@@RockTheBoat404 There could be religions that embrace anti natalism, while there are plenty of atheists who are not antinatalist. You have a double digit IQ.

[@eric-jr2nf]

I'm a Christian AND an anti-natalist

[@LawrenceAnton]

Interesting! Recommend any places to learn more about Christian antinatalism?

[@stilleto6322]

Not sure how that works Eric. As an Ex-christian and now an Antinatalist, i can definetly say they both don't allign. AN puts forward a proposition, that suffering is bad, and isn't redeemed and thats why we should not have kids. Christianity on the other hand, puts forward the idea that suffering isn't really bad, getting persecuted and recieving pain due to your faith also isn't since people who suffer reach an afterlife. In the story of Jesus, his disciples, moses, and so on, everyone of them suffers, but is redeemed by God, and reaches the afterlife, so in the end its all good. Also, Catholics, Orthodox and most protestant denominations push family values, "have as much kids as you can", anti-abortion ideals, which counteract Antinatalism.

[@TheFettuck]

You should only believe in Adam and Eve, because all other mentioned humans are procreated.

[@eric-jr2nf]

​@@stilleto6322 Where did you get the idea that the Bible says suffering isn't bad? The Bible SPECIFICALLY teaches that suffering IS bad. In fact, that's the whole reason Jesus had to come and participate in the suffering in order for humans to be saved. The Bible only teaches to ENDURE suffering while we're here, not that it's good. Suffering and death entered into the world because of human sin (Romans 5:12). Suffering is a bug of the universe not a feature. It's in atheistic naturalism where suffering and death is a feature of the universe from the beginning and totally amoral. The Bible teaches that suffering and death will be abolished and the universe restored to its original paradise state. It sounds like you haven't learned anything when you were a Christian. Yes, many mainstream denominations teach "family values" but they are worldly. They are too attached to this life and it's probably because the system needs to reproduce itself. AN is not common among non-Christians either. Ecclesiastes 4:2-3: "Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive. Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun."

[@hendriefr8917]

@@stilleto6322 Gnosticism align with anti natalism, the catars in the medieval period were persecuted by the catholic church, the catars were among other things, antinatalists.

[@saggyshaggy]

13:25 That's an appeal to nature fallacy. Things can be "natural" but still be considered immorale by us and our society, given our advanced sentience

[@ninimimi1796]

I agree we can argue that pregnancy itself is immoral and parasitic biology isn't neutral at all

[@darkchaozbringer785]

Breediots talking about "jumps"/"leaps" in logic is peak irony.

[@Chlore725]

2:09 The what if you were gay in South Africa is wild given that it is part of the first five countries to accept and legalise same sex marriage even before USA did 😂, I am here for the argument of not having children don’t get me wrong

[@Stevelives13]

Most of Africa isn't though. I think that was what he mean't to say.

[@Stevelives13]

"Biology and nature are neutral" tell that to the majority of non predatory animals that will be eaten alive.

[@birdieculture-2]

Maybe we can ask the natalist this question next time

[@roseaminty4887]

I love watching these street debates. Keep up the good work.

[@AnAntinatalistSpeaks]

Catch a man a fish and you feed him for a day Teach a man to fish and you feed him for life But create a man and you create a lifetime of hunger that did not need to exist in the first place

[@TheFettuck]

But when you create a second man you have somebody who can fish for the first man and feed him for life. Most antinatalists do ironically still live like the first man, because they continue to rely on all the second men in society.

[@fertblu5514]

Dont you think it a paradox that sentient life was an accident and is basically just an accumulation of biological matter but then sentient life becomes so conscious that it makes the consciouss decision to take itself out with antinatalism. Wouldnt such a level of conscioussness speak against a meaningless accumulation of matter? I dont remember who said it but some philosopher said the truth is always a paradox

[@jaye5872]

The truth is always a paradox fr.

[@ZakLylak]

'Life' as an accident has no purpose or assertion to make about meaning, so it would not be a paradox. However, from our perspective, it is ironic. 🙏

[@fertblu5514]

@@ZakLylak ok so its not a paradox, but it is at least ironic

[@Stevelives13]

We're just 1 species of billions the rest haven't evolved to that level of consciousness yet.

[@Retog]

Consciousness is a double-edged sword without a hilt. We can conquer the world with it but it will destroy us.

[@JamesonOJ]

The punk guy is making lots of sense,looks like what I will say also

[@Melnokina.-.]

I love the punk dude but the other one is funny too 🤣🤣 omg I've been watching the trio vids when I need a pick me up. With my bong rn and I'm truly enjoying this. I wish we could have a series...You have no idea how much it helped💛💚

[@LawrenceAnton]

Glad you like them!

[@shatom56]

Absolutely fabulous outreach and video! Thank you!

[@JamesDurcan]

Awesome, thank you for your activism

[@shayseahawkraptorfan]

Irony of him calling antinatalists insane while they believe this world is a great place despite its bs's smh

[@The_Mystical_Blackpiller]

not only that but a hell realm too.

[@urmama1-x2i]

This is simply majestic 😢❤

[@Unknown-p2u4z]

David Benatar calls himself an Efilist in leaked voice chat kzbin.info/www/bejne/mZfZhp6lhd6Kb5osi=hEPDtWAMbyFzpmU4

[@marcozegikniet9301]

Right wing conservatism is what would make me a Antinatalists really quick !

[@louisburke8927]

The person with the painted face was a bit chaotic

[@dio69666]

I love that punk guy. He looks so cool too. What's his name?

[@LawrenceAnton]

Stitch, I believe.

[@Unknown-p2u4z]

​@@LawrenceAntonDavid Benatar calls himself an Efilist in leaked voice chat kzbin.info/www/bejne/mZfZhp6lhd6Kb5osi=hEPDtWAMbyFzpmU4

[@miroslavblagojevic2402]

Very powerful expression of our main ideas. Bravo guys.👍🏻

[@lovethyneibor22736]

The king 👑 is back ❤❤❤

[@Vap0r170]

I see you everywhere😂

[@lovethyneibor22736]

@Vap0r170 I'm just a ghost of a wind

[@ninimimi1796]

They should have argued that biology itself isn't neutral, and we can judge just by simple observation accross all the living organisms, the immorality of it, especially to sentient life of all degrees of consciousness

[@Unknown-p2u4z]

David Benatar calls himself an Efilist in leaked voice chat kzbin.info/www/bejne/mZfZhp6lhd6Kb5osi=hEPDtWAMbyFzpmU4

[@lenneav]

Ask the Christian natalists, “which do you believe is better: non-existence or eternal torment?” (I’m an Christian antinatalist btw)

[@LawrenceAnton]

Cool! Dyou have any recommendations on where to find out more about Christian antinatalism?

[@lenneav]

@ I highly recommend “The childfree Christ” by Theophile de giraud! Also, the philosopher Soren Kierkegaard could 100% be considered a Christian antinatalist. But most importantly for me, is the increase in accounts of people’s near-death experiences, many of which describe horrific suffering of damned souls 🙏 although I have faith, my line of thinking has really alienated me from religion in general, especially as a woman…so be it. I really appreciate how you respectfully engage and challenge the people who frustrate us so much!

[@TheFettuck]

You should only believe in Adam and Eve, because all other mentioned humans are procreated.

[@monk4ever]

​@@TheFettuckNah, Adam and Eve went to hell after they died.

[@TheFettuck]

@@monk4ever Antinatalism says nothing about hell.

[@JohnDoe-uk6si]

The punks are cool

[@BA11YO]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Turtles In Time > wage slavery, old age, paying bills, breeder logic etc.

[@classicrockfan4906]

I actually think that using the maximum suffering arguments (like cerebral palsy) is less effective, and too cherry-picking than laying out the asymmetry for ANY harm imposed. The procreational decision is unique in that ALL harm/suffering is not imposed on someone else, whilst the negatives of "deprivation of good" are also not taking place to a person, since there is not a person born to be deprived. It need not be maximal cases of harm. I get that emotionally, these are the things that grabs people attention though, but while strengthening the immediate emotional appeal, it sort of chops away the most salient aspects of the broader logic, that ANY harm could have been avoided without a consequence for that person. And any world that is a non-utopia (which is infinitely most worlds), this logic applies.

[@NiaEsto]

1:58 where can we listen to his songs, especially the one he talking about

[@vDuzz]

I wanna hang out with punk guy. We would get along really well lol.

[@Mega52101]

8:40

[@cynthiataormino5987]

That punk rock guy has an American sounding accent

[@Stevelives13]

Lol anyone spot the name of the pub in the background?

[@MADSCIENTISTGONESANE6166]

One of your better videos - and that's not being biased . .. . Or am I 🤔🤔🤔

[@naeemna9677]

misanthropy

[@qwerqaz6691]

❌🤱🏽❌🤱🏽❌🤱🏽❌🤱🏽❌

[@antinatalope]

So many people like this guy don't understand that birth is the sine qua non of everything that happens to a person.

[@The_Mystical_Blackpiller]

life is a meaningless experience period it was never needed in the first place, on top of that we have no rights here everything isn't for free either which makes it even worse than it's already is, if anything seeing this reality as something good is exactly what makes it a perfect prison.

[@The_Mystical_Blackpiller]

@@Andrew-jb2ib nope it has nothing to do with it, that's just called having basic logic, you only have to look into how things works in society in order to recognize how pointless it is.

[@The_Mystical_Blackpiller]

@@Andrew-jb2ib try to live in north korea and see if you won't lose you're head within the first one week being there, again it's has everything to do with this shithole so stop blaming something that wasn't related to it or make up excuses like depression because it's the most stupidest argument ever to have in 2024 so.

[@9r9d9w9]

I can tell by the way you speak that You're an entitled, antisocial depressed loser (like many anti natalists) Just because you have this opinion, it doesn't make it an objective truth.

[@francisdec1615]

Life is meaningless, but on top of that the so called society is just a shameful charade with a minority of psychopaths oppressing 99% of the people with the help of stupid thugs called police and military.

[@Stevelives13]

Is the guy in the grey hoodie with the guitar part of the group or just a member of the public.

[@Melnokina.-.]

Idk but I love him

[@ThoseStairsTheFirst]

I agree with antinatalism as the world is now.. but the almost religious belief that the world will continue to be like this (ie making sure it will) is wrong and creates more suffering than not advocating antinatalism. We can switch the asymmetry imbalance. Complete voluntary extinction is much harder or impossible. If we can have the courage to tell people that having children is wrong then why can't we have the courage to advocate the things we can do to create a global paradise for all?

[@Hatunrumioc]

You can't create a global paradise because we aren't in complete control of nature and humanity self corrects from ever becoming highly moral because the most ethical people don't reproduce.

[@HowlingFantods]

Its funny how they cut out his answer 12:28

[@billg9502]

Great discussion of why it's best not to procreate . We are in overshoot on so many levels on this planet , just another reason .

[@The_Mystical_Blackpiller]

antinatalism should become a newer religion tbh.

[@Stevelives13]

Its a philosophy not a religion.

[@The_Mystical_Blackpiller]

@@Stevelives13 i know that, but it's literally makes more sense than any beliefs in existence that we know of so far which makes it rational than all religions for that matter when you think about it, so the philosophy seems really closer to that & holds up, what if existence was all a mistake but we choose to ignore it? that's what i meant when i refered it as a religion the fact that some of us suffer without our consent is already a red flag in itself that proves life is inherently horrible especially when some don't know what it's like going throw hell while having a better life than the others, this has to be a torture realm in disguise and lots don't wanna face it so.

[@darko783]

Gnosticism is the only one that comes close to it.

[@TheFettuck]

You should live alone in the wild (only relying on yourself) when you want to believe in antinatalism.

[@korill125]

:D

[@LawrenceAnton]

1st!

[@CDAActivism]

​@@LawrenceAnton damn 😭 😭 😭

[@LawrenceAnton]

@ Plenty more videos to come for you to conquer!

[@korill125]

@@LawrenceAnton love u tysm for making videos🙏🏻

[@CDAActivism]

@@LawrenceAnton 💪🏾 💪🏾 💪🏾

[@fyfe206]

This is goofy

[@JohnDoe-uk6si]

You're goofy

[@fyfe206]

@@JohnDoe-uk6si 🤡🤡

[@CroElectroStile]

Being an antinatalist activist in the West that has rapidly falling birth rates is like being an anti-obesity campaigner at an Ethiopian famine relief camp!

[@francisdec1615]

Nah, people are still breeding here in Sweden. I see people with babies every day.

[@CroElectroStile]

@@francisdec1615 ok cuck

[@evildave7687]

This seems like turning depression into a philosophy.

[@darko783]

No, they are realists. When we look at the world, it is very clear that there is more bad than good.

[@evildave7687]

Is this a edgy, troll attention-seeking thing, or are they serious?

[@Melnokina.-.]

Not bringing in new life is trolling? So you think everyone who has chronic pain, disability etc should just be okay with it?

[@lakinzi]

Нормальный человек против трех клоунов

[@JB.zero.zero.1]

Brilliant argument.

[@danyukhin]

when you point a finger, there are three fingers pointing back at you

[@Imthesoulofthes]

Actually it’s one Ignorant Man against 3 Wisemen.

[@TheEternalClown]

Slave

[@SyndikatChannel]

Вы понятия не имеете, о чем здесь идет речь

[@qwerqaz6691]

❌🤱🏽❌🤱🏽❌🤱🏽❌🤱🏽❌

[@qwerqaz6691]

❌🤱🏽❌🤱🏽❌🤱🏽❌🤱🏽❌