It's not great...

[@jakepeng9962]

I really want that "All of Winona's working actions are faster, but consume hunger. Winona works slower than others when low hunger." Which should be base kit.

[@Lor_Lor]

isnt… isnt that already in her?

[@trainertom1]

so old wolfgang

[@gena_sealov]

@@Lor_Lor only crafting

[@idonthinkso807]

Bruh that is base kit

[@retiredaccount6032]

​@@idonthinkso807it's only applicable to crafting, the author meant ir to apply to working actions such as mining and chopping

[@cheez9215]

as someone who never cared for winona, and considers her my least favorite character, this skill tree is good enough to make me wanna try her out, especially the dismantling and nightmare fuel as generator fuel. it could very much be better but i think the charlie side will be enough to make more people wanna try her.

[@Andyisgodcky]

So, I realize this comment is 3 weeks old, but the shadow side of the tree is *busted.* Level 2 shadow seeker makes you immune to charlie, meaning she will ignore you in complete darkness. The rose colored glasses let you examine flowers to get an item that is a free revive, pure horror from the obelisks around pig king, AND can decide a wormholes destination from any revealed on the map, giving you a great deal of map mobility.

[@norf-kr6od]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@Andyisgodcky The shadow skills aside from wormhole switching and water bridges are quite weak imo. Charlie immunity is nearly useless since in complete darkness you’re not capable of doing anything other than running around. The rose revive is like having renewable touchstones which is alright but way worse than life giving amulets which you should have a lot of. You can scan stuff for nightmare fuel/pure horror once per day iirc which is negligible. Shadow strike sucks compared to the lunar strike too.

[@Andyisgodcky]

@@norf-kr6od To each their own, I consider the utility of the wormholes and slowdown of the pure horror catapults to be of great use, and far more accessible considering that you don't even need mid-end game content to use shadow strike.

[@norf-kr6od]

@@Andyisgodcky There are definitely good aspects of that branch but it’s hard to compare those things to infinite energy gemerators, essentially unlimited teleportation, auto gather robots, and the insane utility/damage of lunar strike. I feel like unfortunately this is another skill tree where there’s clearly a superior option.

[@doritos4956]

​@norf-kr6od shadow skills are better early game, while lunar are better late game. Lunar skills begin working later on anyways so you can just switch

[@stinkysoup2884]

he HATES winona

[@siullajirafahace23anos61]

But he's a winona main

[@stinkysoup2884]

@@siullajirafahace23anos61 he HATES winona

[@IHitMyKeyboard]

@@siullajirafahace23anos61 he HATES winona

[@bean9315]

​@@siullajirafahace23anos61 he HATES winona

[@funkymonkey980]

@@siullajirafahace23anos61 he HATES winona

[@Sir_Noel]

A branch for generators, shadow side and lunar side sounds really good. The thing I don't really like about the current shelf system is you're just kind of spending whatever to get to the third shelf, it should feel more connected (and the remote skills aren't really impressing.) I would have preferred if certain skills would have led to either side. I know their justification is that they wanted Winona to have access (mostly) to both sides due to her ties to both Charlie and Wagstaff, but I think it's compromising the non-shadow/lunar skills. They mostly just feel tacked on so you can have the option to have almost all the skills from both sides.

[@DonnaPinciot]

A couple things I can think of to make her more interesting to play: Taken straight from Uncompromising Mode, apply her craft speed perk to harvesting. So you can pick and build quick at the cost of hunger. I've played many hours of Winona like that, and it's pretty nice. Taking a Maxwell/Wicker style approach to her machines. Other characters can still _use_ her machines, but she gets the most efficiency out of fuel, the most use out of trusty tape, and is the only one that can directly reposition them in her inventory, plus the only one able to use the remote for her special abilities.

[@ArcAngelaGaming]

This is exactly what I tried to address in my own previous Winona mod (FTWinona, currently broken since update but I've been working on a fix), I really hoped they wouldn't just work on her buildings rather than her character, Charlie's perks expand on that somewhat, but it's still not making the general gameplay loop more interesting or defining, and that's a real shame. I also feel like they forgot to do anything dynamic with her Tape... A skill point towards fixing armor with tape was such a no-brainer.

[@t.e.a4357]

Wurt should of had more development on her kingdom rather than buffing them with an item durring fights. more specialisation of merms involving merm commands to alter their behaviour such as retreat, block, taunt, carry or even crafting would fit her better considering she is all about establishing a merm society

[@ZarovBeifong]

tldw : she is the useful part of a celestial portal

[@neux660]

I feel like something that should be base kite is the ability for her to just pick up any stucture and replace it without breaking it. That way she can have something unique but useful as well since her strenghts are mechanics.

[@Quadratordo]

Well said. It's all about widening the scope of what she can do; set her apart from being just a glorified crafting interface. The skill tree has *some* good ideas, but it needs more that isn't just power-ups for things she already had. Making her structures only usable by her is the lowest effort solution, but that doesn't address the important scope issue.

[@ericferreira3257]

Woodie main here. Never cared to play winona. With this skill tree i really feel like it.

[@Kroban_d4c]

6:05 I dont think that Winona's new exclusive use of catapults is bad, Wicker up until like a year ago has always had exclusive ways to farm lots of things in the game with her books and no one ever bats an eye at that. And a lot of players dislike how Maxwell's rework almost took away entirely her exclusiveness as "the book reader". Winona basically had the opposite happen to her, everyone could use something that was her specialty, so the simple tweak of making her catapults exclusive makes her way more valuable as a character, even more so considering farms like vargs, silk, BQ, or probably even Misery now with how cheap it is to dismantle

[@lenship2]

the sleep mode is base kit btw, just wanted to point that out

[@retiredaccount6032]

That's worse for other characters no?

[@fr3shlian716]

I think the Charlie alignment is pretty good at adding unique gameplay perks. Having this useful way of reviving is nice and wormhole travel is good. Now I think what she needs is the telepad to be more like the wormhole travel where you can choose the destination and maybe adding one more machine and Charlie trick. Edit: Also stronger fuel sources affecting other machines.

[@icemelonsthanos7734]

some amazing ideas for the skill tree being presented here and i hope klei listens to them but given their track record i do doubt it

[@payday7679]

I think the coolest thing she got was the Charlie goggles and rose resurrection

[@Andyisgodcky]

Those goggles can give you free Pure Horror from Pig King obelisks

[@diversquid4793]

Basically, to improve the appeal of "Swap Characters" like Winona, Warly or even Wicker (for Maxwell players), is add/improve character unique strengths, that being by QoL changes (like Warly always cooking things with 100% freshness even when using spoiled ingredients for example) or straight up new tools/abilities that these Swap Characters and only them are capable of using.

[@mayson696]

I suggested the idea on the forum: need to make that the catapults can be repaired, and not to rebuild them. Let them still break completely at 0 health, but if the boss walks over them, they will break like a Large Chest. They won't break down completely. They can be restored. And they will need to be repaired with a Trusty Tape. This will motivate the player to use catapults even in boss battles, as well as to wear a Trusty Tape at all times, rather than storing it at the base

[@YourLocalMedic]

Is your profile picture a "that ain't Falco" reference

[@masterjames1856]

There some aspect if the wurt tree i really don’t like, the mosquito part and the hunger buff part, i also feel like the amphibian part is also lack luster, it only add 4 new skill on 7 of them without giving you a way to get wet easier or stay wet easier (for example the ability to swim) My biggest let down is the lack of new merms, i would definitely replace 3 skill of hunger to get 3 new merms, Fishermerms, Farmerms and adventurmerms For winona i think giving her the ability to craft a multitool (axe,pickaxe,shovel,fork,hammer) that is infinite but needs to be refueled by her would give her something interesting and unique in early game (since she’s a hardworker so ofc she would create such a tool to be more efficient)

[@eeevs8075]

To be honest, the problem is that most of Winona's skill tree is pure useless garbage, the "quality of life changes" for Winona like portability, the remote and sleep mode SHOULD be part of Winona withouth any skills, the skills feel like they are there to take some space. Then the incresed fire rate also feels useless becuase most of the time you will be using the remote, in the case you dont use it 5% and 10% is too bad for 2 skill points wasted in that, and the control option to increase the catapults firing speed for a time also feels useless. Another bad thing about it is the affinities, talking about the catapults affinities, theres 6 skills, 3 for shadow side and 3 for lunar side, the 2 ones for the generator and GEMerator should be 1 skill not 2 skills, it feels really dumb wating to use pure horror and see that you must get the nightmare fuel skill, and also the planar strike, it feels terrible, it consumes too much energy, you can only shoot like 4 times and Woops! you need to use more pure horror/pure brilliance, and also theres very little situations you want to use it, 120 planar damage is good, but just use the regular attack 3 times and you deal a bit more damage than it, withouth wasting too much energy. The affinity skills of the catapults should be 1 or 2 instead of 3 skills, they should make the pure horror and pure brilliance skills come with the planar strike skill as you basically need to use the pure things to use the planar strikes. The only skills that give Winona something usefull are Shadow seeker II and Finders keepers I, you can make W.I.N.bots with it, and with shadow seeker II you can get an objectively better life giving amulet and some pure horror to use shadow powered catapults at the start of a game plus not take damage from darkness, and no ,in my opinion Finders keepers II is trash, the portasol feels too useless to be honest, it would be better if it had global range. Honestly most of the skill tree feels empty, wasting 3 skill points for quality of life changes, wasting, 8 or more skill points to upgrade the catapults and 3 skill points to have something unique as Winona (talking about Finders keepers I and Shadow seeker II)

[@VDDVuguighjgyu]

yapping

[@JJ-xh2qi]

maybe give Winona a new gadget, have more uses with spotlights, give Winona specific items (toolbox, super tape that fixes amor/weapons). Catapults are already strong so there isn't reason to make them the main focus.

[@antynomity]

Title describes the beta perfectly, in my eyes

[@siullajirafahace23anos61]

I personally think that Winona's skill tree is great, her problem is having to turn on catapults (only winona can turn them on)

[@MrArthur9991]

Any character can turn the catapults on, only Winona can use the remote for that.

[@Sir_Noel]

@@MrArthur9991 No, catapults will remain "unarmed" unless turned on by Winona manually or with the remote. Edit: V2C just acknowledged that characters activating Catapults with spacebar is a bug and will be fixed in the next hotfix.

[@lenship2]

​@@Sir_Noelbut other characters can arm the catapults though, idk what you're talking about

[@Sir_Noel]

@@lenship2 Idk what you mean but only Winona should be able to.

[@lenship2]

other players arming catapults was unintentional and got patched today, nvm

[@YourLocalMedic]

I really hope they make some improvements to this. I think it has potential but it's not quite good enough

[@WitnessesSay]

50 seconds in, have to disagree, my neurons are too distracted by how celestial champion can be defeated in a minute following this rework

[@nahhitsnotnys]

eh. after some bug fixes and full implementation I think the skill tree will be really good. i would've preferred new or more interesting structures but this skill tree is also fine

[@loopuleasa]

it's not great, it's good

[@YourLocalMedic]

I absolutely agree with the direction you are pushing the skill tree in. I really hope klei listens, but they have a horrible track record in my opinion when it comes to listening to feedback regarding skill trees

[@CursedIchor]

Good ideas, but it definitely does seem too late in development.

[@GuacaTypeBeat]

What we really need is Mr beast You got the release date yet or

[@purplesquirtle]

Damn dude, you made that fast! I think you hit the nail on the head when you said her catapults didn't need changing because people were not complaining at her catapults, its the lack of everything else about her that makes her a swap character. But instead of adding more perks, they made the one thing good about her - worse.

[@TeethMeat-jm8ou]

Please remember that characters can get later updates to the skill tree (but don't count on it, but it could happen). There is still 10 characters to work on for skill trees. They have a lot on their plate

[@peperochinonazarick]

i agree about range dmg crap, make them cheaper and give her half cost on other crafts, new machines with QOL aspects like harnessing lightning energy

[@supremegamingepic]

How do you make little wobots

[@tofiday]

please klei listen to this guy he speaks the truth

[@peperochinonazarick]

who is gonna bother pack her catapults spned inventory slots just to move these craps around, who cares about snooze/safe energy thing? if i want more dmg ill build more catapults, if i want more range ill build more catapults again closer, who cares about firing rate, ill just build again more catapults further and instead of 10 firing ill have 100

[@twustermydude]

bundling wrap or just. the slots saved by not having to pack as much armor because of the dps

[@דמכי11]

W the mic has a problam or iam the problam

[@verybored7361]

Stopped watching the moment you said winona should be a swap character

[@supremegamingepic]

As a Wurt HATER and Winona FAN, I think the skill tree is pretty good! Making her stronger and giving her more control of her items is pretty good. The teleporters are amazing but I also wish they brought back the thumper from Hamlet.

[@peperochinonazarick]

wurt hater? wurt is cheap but laggy, the reason why no ones wants webber or wurt in the 1st place, control over her structures, um sure but shouls have those since the beginning, we dont care about little bit extra energy she is gonna saf, we neever cared about inserting 3 gems and having something die too soon while there are 2 charges sitting there.

[@peperochinonazarick]

wurt hater? wurt is cheap but laggy, the reason why no ones wants webber or wurt in the 1st place, control over her structures, um sure but shouls have those since the beginning, we dont care about little bit extra energy she is gonna saf, we neever cared about inserting 3 gems and having something die too soon while there are 2 charges sitting there.

[@peperochinonazarick]

wurt hater? wurt is cheap but laggy, the reason why no ones wants webber or wurt in the 1st place, control over her structures, um sure but shouls have those since the beginning, we dont care about little bit extra energy she is gonna saf, we neever cared about inserting 3 gems and having something die too soon while there are 2 charges sitting there.

[@Arnur_tox]

​@@peperochinonazarick why you spam it?

[@hollowknightenjoyer]

Damn

[@supermilordo5153]

Sincerely JustExo, I don't get what you expect. We're talking about SKILL TREES. The abhorrent design to catch more new players from other games as a marketing tool (and is not working). Also it was proved (even if we didn't need it) that Klei devs don't care either because they don't want skill trees too in their game. The only thing worth to talk is being lied by klei about the quality of life stuff for winona not being in the base kit. It's outrageous.

[@mayson696]

There's nothing wrong with skill trees, the problem is that Klei don't know how to make them