Italian 'cinquedea' daggers & swords in the Wallace Collection (Dr Tobias Capwell & Matt Easton)

www.wallacecollection.org/
/ historicalfencing

[@rjfaber1991]

Ah, that takes me back to the good old days of Assassin's Creed II. I had some good fun with cinquedas in that game...

[@Tectonix26]

+Robert Faber My thought's exactly

[@elgostine]

+Robert Faber i have to agree as well

[@jordanbonacci5725]

The broadness of the blade draws comparison, at least to me, to the Roman pugio. As we know, Renaissance Italy was obsessed with reviving Roman art and culture. This could be their take on the pugio.

[@RyanRyzzo]

+Jordan Bonacci Exactly my thoughts. Looks very much like a pugio.

[@nikitaonassis6090]

that is a possibility..a fixation which lasted awhile..

+Jordan Bonacci Yes, the shape (way more than the size) is really like a pugio's shape. It is easier to see a pugio in that rather than a gladius of any kind. Gladius had either rectangular shape (late) or leaf shape (earlier) but I don't remember ever seeing triangular gladius. It has a lot in common with oriental ancient weapons, like persian swords pre-Alexander era or even babylonian swords etc and some features has more celtic feelings but I can't see the roman era sword here.

[@farmerboy916]

That was my first thought, and still a bit, but it is also very easy to see the resemblance of the blade to some bronze age daggers. Probably an amalgamation of several designs, which someone made on request and got copied all to hell because the ideas behind it were so popular.

[@sylvanstrength7520]

Jordan Bonacci My first thought exactly

[@beardedbjorn5520]

I’ve been fascinated with these since my introduction to these in AC2. The blade almost looks like it was takes off a partisan and fiddled with.

[@WardancerHB]

Toby, do you teach? You really should! It's a pleasure listening to you! Informative, on the point but not dull.

[@GermanSwordMaster]

+Rumburak He does. He holds lectures. Search for em :) There is a great speech he held in california online. Toby is a hero. A brilliant jouster (knight basically. :D) and a very cool and totally comitted curator :)

[@scottmcfall4561]

I love the Cinquedea as a form. This post made me very happy to see, but ecstatic to witness such an even handed and reasonable examination. Excellent work. I'm in absolute agreement.

[@Sallet]

They look rather plain from a distance, but amazing upclose. Love all the details on the blades.

[@secutorprimus]

Cinquedeas are my almost favorite type of sword/dagger (right behind messers), but definitely my favorite looking historical weapons. They are so, so pretty

[@corrugatedcavalier5266]

I really like Toby's comparison to the bronze age stuff. That's as good an explanation as any I've heard.

[@VictorC1891]

This daggers/swords are extremely beautiful ! I had no idea that they are so richly ornate.

[@PghFlash]

Obviously they have that form because of pizza

[@edi9892]

That shape goes back to the first bronze swords. That shape should originally compensate for a lack of stiffness. ON Cinquedeas it's mainly an artistic choice, but it brings the center of mass close to the grip making them more agile (but poorer cutters, although they still cut quite well due to their broad blades).

[@339Jackscarify]

It's easier to handle the slices this way.

[@TheNIX001]

@@edi9892 I bet you´re fun at parties...

[@edi9892]

@@TheNIX001 I hate parties.

[@scratchd0g]

Bippity boppy? Bibiddy bop boopie!

[@Williamstanway]

love the Dr Cap knowledge smackdown.

[@Psiberzerker]

I always wondered where the hell the design came from. Makes sense, it looks like a Bronze design, thank you!

[@erice3990]

I just want to thank you and Dr. Capwell for this series of videos. I have looked forward to these collaborations and hope that you are able keep them going in some fashion, beyond your original plan.

[@williamturechek2911]

Definitely reminds me of a Pugio. The wide blade turned sideways could sort of act a little like a shield.

[@lajospapp258]

For some reason they remind me of the indian katar. The shape of the blade is similar, only in bigger proportions.

[@electronkaleidoscope5860]

These have always interested me quite a bit. Its hard to get any real info on them. Most people I've asked aren't a fan of the look(that most likely has to do with it) , but the style has actually really grown on me. Sure,they look goofy when you first see them , but (if somewhat ironically) their unorthodox appearance is actually pretty cool once it becomes a bit more familiar. all you need to do is wrap your head around the styling. That coupled with their uniqueness in actual design,and the (most likely) unique fighting style they had considering the ancient inspiration, has made me incredibly curious about these things. Thanks for covering these man,As Dr.Capwell mentioned in the video,these deserve way more attention than hey get,and its way nice to get so much info in one video after finding virtually nothing on them for so long!

[@jlthearcher]

I would like to hear more about these, blade lengths, gaurd styles, etc.

[@chuckmikey001]

It's my understanding they were a sword used in towns and castles where full sized swords were regulated, they were a compromise weapon, they were a short, heavy weapon and the fullers seem to reinforce the blades "points of percussion" so that they could successfully parry full sized swords or longer short swords and falchions without breaking. It would be really interesting to see some cutting videos with one of these on various targets to see just how that edge geometry would really work. Most likely the only ones who used such things were wealthy merchants and aristocrats and that might explain the ornamentation.

[@patricksnyder8596]

Its like the weapon has been focused in such a way to give as much strength the the forte as possible. Increasing wideness, is increasing leverage

[@Dale_The_Space_Wizard]

I don't know why, but I like the look of these :)

[@ethan073]

Definitely one of my favorite daggers. I love the short ones.

[@judofry]

It would be interesting if you could get a replica and play around with it to see how you think they may have been used, especially considering how they were carried.

[@Ederick1936]

dear god i have been saying the name of this weapon so very wrong my entire life.

[@paolobera]

The right pronunciation in italian is chinque dea, the e in dea is pronounced like the e in pen.

[@Psiberzerker]

Incidentally, my favorite combination is an Estoc to fight/kill with, and a Cinquedea for defense/cutting. It's a good beater, an estoc sucks for cutting, but with a good grip, and pommel, you can draw the sidearm in the offhand up close. (I usually inver the Estoc y the riccasso, "Cruciform" when they get in past the point.)

[@NoahWeisbrod]

Unrelated question: which pieces of a full suit of armor would get in the way most if you're trying to shoot a bow?

[@scholagladiatoria]

+Noah Weisbrod Pauldrons/spaulders, the wings of elbow cops, many types of helmet. Gauntlets.

[@samziegler4957]

A fashionable codpiece.

[@montybigbore6158]

Thanks Matt I enjoy looking at unique and awesome pieces of past in which we can broaden our knowledge.

[@tsmcgu]

I've always wondered "What's up with that funky-wide Italian knife?!?" Thanks, Matt!

[@Kpoull]

Thank you for reminding me about the cinquedea. Looks like a new project to make. :)

[@BigZ7337]

Those are really interesting weapons, and the stylized fullers on them are so unique. You don't really see any reproductions of this weapon though, or at least I haven't.

[@AakeTraak]

I could listen to this guy all day.

[@KincadeCeltoSlav]

I Love these Short Swords! Thank you Matt!

[@leighchristopherson2455]

These appear to be the inspiration for modern mosaic pins that are becoming common.

[@davidbradley6040]

Always liked these.

[@URMyNewTV]

these are swaggers

[@cyrilgigee4630]

This one gets it.

[@Canutox15]

Increible trabajo de herreria antigua, te felicito y admiro; pertenezco a un grupo recreacionista y tus videos me son de gran ayuda! muchas gracias por brindar este material, Saludos desde Argentina :D

[@jrpgtactics7786]

very thankful to find this video just now

[@greysector1330]

I purchased a decent sharp reproduction to do some cutting with.I was very surprised at the weapons ability, it cuts scary well, moves quickly to a second cut/chop in a small space and out performs any daggers & big knives I've tested with ease, cuts as well as a Gladius and many arming swords due to perhaps the angle of the edge impact from the geometry of the blade and it's "clever like" blade width. When in hand the weapon seemed to be the .357 snub-nose of it's day, the perfect thing under your cape for a late night walk in the back streets of a 15th century city where perhaps a sword was prohibited . A favorite now.

[@Hissatsu5]

Loved the video subject

[@viv4ar]

Tobias is so artistic again

[@edi9892]

Cinquedeas remain a mystery to me. The grips look horribly uncomfortable, the fullers are directly next to the edge creating a steep angle bad for cutting and they are the only blades with stepwise fullers (no transition in between).

[@louirudy670]

the grips are very comfortable.

[@edi9892]

***** I don't even know for what platform angry birds is, but I do know quite a bit about swords and daggers. If you think that I am wrong in my statements bring some arguments against them.

[@nikitaonassis6090]

+Decay Yay! Angry birds..

[@winfieldjohnson125]

I don't remember where I read it but I read that the Cinquedea was a result of laws that restricted civilians from wearing swords. The form and size were a result of pushing the boundaries of the laws. Legally, according to my source, they were daggers .

[@Xtafa]

Waa hoping you would have one by now, do some test cutting, give some thoughts on usage and practicality. Demonstrate their balance

[@andy4an]

Could you talk about the swordsmanship in Princess Bride? Maybe you have already? I've only seen about 30 of your videos...

[@elgostine]

really interesting i never thought of the cinquedea as an attempt to copy the fad of the ancient greeks and romans my favorite example of that trend though is a steel breastplate covered in ivory scales in honour of alexander and the romans

[@NevetsTSmith]

I've been wondering what the practical advantages are to peening at the pommel vs riveting a blade from the side, or vice versa.

[@TheGuylanda128]

Those fullers are very interesting.

[@ofailia650]

damn, the similarity to the triangular daggers/swords of antiquity never occurred to me before, but now it seems pretty hard to miss. I wonder if people used the sword-length ones with bucklers, as the ancient versions were typically used with a shield? the steel would hold up to blade contact better, but the guard is rather small. possibly the blade geometry functions as hand protection as well? also, Cinquedea is called "Ochsenzunge" in German - I wouldn't want a lick from that, looks like it would leave a nasty wound :P

[@nikitaonassis6090]

Ah good, it has a german name as well. So there might be correlation of language to use by the people who would have used it.

[@ofailia650]

+Nikita Onassis yes, but names are not always from the same period as the object. though in this case it might as well be, Northern Italy borders on Austria after all. both the German term "Ochsenzunge" and French "langue the boeuf" mean ox's tongue, clearly also referring to the shape.

[@OzoneoceanMJM]

These used to remind me of the He-Man and She-Ra swords, till I actually saw the ancient Greek weapons (in Greece), that seem to be the direct inspiration for those famous cartoon swords. But at least that means I've also seen the weapons that inspired these.

[@LordGrandKaiser]

+Decay You should probably take the time to comprehend what you're reading before you respond. He's not saying that anything from the past was inspired by those cartoons. He's saying that both the cinquedea and the swords in those cartoons were inspired by ancient Greek designs.

[@ptonpc]

+Decay OzoneOcean is not saying that. What he/she means is that he/she has seen the ancient Greek weapons in Greece. He/she is of the opinion that the ancient Greek weapons inspired the cinquedea and that (by coincidence or research) it looks like they also inspired the sword design for the cartoon.

[@jaysbob]

Do these have some sort of tang going through the handle or is the hilt/guard a separate piece? It looks like on some of these the guard is riveted directly to the base of the blade (12:04 minutes). I know Tobias mentioned fakes/reconstructions; is this construction original/typical, or do we even know? They remind me of the big ornate Bowie knives you see in the 19th century. I wonder how these feel in the hand.

[@gabriel321654987af]

Oh god, so many questions... Firstly isn't this hilt too small to have a good grip and control of the long and wide blade? If I recall correctly in one of your videos you said that some swords rely on the wielder holding it more towards the middle so that the weight would be more equaly distributed e.g. katanas. And it doesn't seem to me that the pommel is big enough to counter balance the weight of the rest of the cinquedea. Other than that, I know that in the video you two affirmed that there were no solid information on how to wield the cinquedea in real combat, but personally how do you think that they were used? Ps: nice video, cheers

[@ilikewasabe]

Originally, I thought a cinquedea is shaped like that and has a lot of fuller because at that time period the steel was of lower quality thats why it is shaped like what we see it. glad i watched this video.. I learn new things everyday :) Im interested on how it is used.. obviously you stab people with it.. but how did people at that time use is efficiently, because the long ones i think is a pretty good chopper. like the afgan Khyber knife

[@SolyomSzava]

Matt, could you talk in a future video about the hilts of these things? They seem, I don't know, weirdly shaped? Not sure how they feel and fit in a hand...

[@edwardleachman7131]

The rapier could be a response to a cinquedea: "Ah ha! My long skinny sword to counter your short fat . . . thing."

[@nikitaonassis6090]

Where there is imbalance in the force, the pommel will bring balance back to the force..it full rounded pi r squared glory..

[@blairbuskirk5460]

Why choose one when you could use both? The rapier to thrust and the cinquedea to cut and party.

[@brandorgraccus6653]

Having tried with a stick, I can safely say it's easier to parry/block/deflect a sword's blade with a wider blade like cinquedea rather than a narrow left hand

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

Self-Defense stabby-chode.

[@EmilReiko]

The rapier sucks in an indoor bar fight thoug, the Cinquedea don't

[@edthealpinedude8933]

very interesting

[@kiba3x]

I love them!

[@jeffprice6421]

The blades, even without considering the etching are a sculptural form. The blade with 4 ridges running the length, Can you call those fullers at that point? And then the horizontal elements, is that based on some previous bronze age forms? It is a really attractive blade. All that fullering would make it quite stiff as well.

[@AThousandYoung]

Perhaps this is the ancestor of the Colichemarde and parrying dagger. It reminds me of Crocodile Dundee's knife too.

[@mackieaze4536]

What are those odd ridges across the width of the blade? Do they serve a practical use in parry or are they to stop the dagger from over penetrating? Perhaps just a blacksmiths flourish as they seemed to be even more pronounced on the more heavily decorated blades. If anyone knows or have any theory id be interested to hear it.

[@Jthe5th]

The camera does not do justice to this fine pieces of history

[@jwg72]

Given the time period - and the increase in trade that was going on - I always wonder if they were inspired by the import of Katars and similarly broad bladed ornate weapons from India (some of which have non-punching handles).

[@AnonymityIx]

at 4:00 there's a helmet behind him on the far left. it looks incredibly similar to a helmet the character voldo wears in the game soul calibur. could you give me some more detail about it ?

[@brendandor]

I enjoy these very interesting videos, but maybe showing the close-ups as you talk would be a bit more visually pleasing than the half focussed half shown of you and the swords, one or the other would improve the visual quality. Do not get me wrong I love these videos, the history is very interesting!

[@gebeme11]

Was there any functional reason for the very wide blade base? It would move the point of balance towards the hand but there are better ways to do that. Second question, why such a skinny tang right below the crossguard. Seems like it would be a weak point for any serious use.

[@BIIGtony]

Is it just me or does the hilt look really uncomfortable and small? At first glance I thought it was just the tang, only on second glance I saw that it was not the case. How would you hold one of those?

[@jothegreek]

Ι hope Mr Matt Easton sees the post but i am curious for a long time wether or not the katanas were actually in the same logic swords as the cinquedea . Meaning swords for personal l protection and not for war use.

[@ptonpc]

I noticed a few of them have a horizontal ridge on the blade. What was that for?

[@koosh138]

what's that horizontal thing going across the fullers of the blades?

[@kevinfox5594]

I was wondering on construction, I can see that the handles appear to have end caps, are they held in place by penning of the tang over these end caps, or are the handles riveted to either side of the tang like a dagger or Messer (knife construction) - if so could this be a fiddle to let cutlers make these without breaking the remit of local swordsmithing guilds, given the power of guilds in the period?

[@scholagladiatoria]

+Kevin Fox They are made like knives, riveted sideways through the tang.

[@kevinfox5594]

Cheers, I didn't want to make assumptions, thanks for the reply

[@Robert399]

I imagine a cinquedea inflicts enormous stab wounds but isn't very good against armour.

[@Duke_of_Lorraine]

+Robert R a narrow blade is better for penetration, unless you really stab very deeply (and the Romans knew that 10 centimeters in the target is enough). Though the shape of the blade looks very rigid. A wide blade like that, it was clearly made to be a decent cutter.

[@mikewhalen8020]

Remember, the cinquedea was designed for civilian self defense use, no doubt in response partly due to restrictions on to blade length (sound familiar?). Not to many street thugs wearing armor.

[@d33b33]

So, is the blade so fat because that was considered pretty like jewelry at that time? Or is there a practical fighting purpose to having a dagger with a blade that has such a wide base?

[@maxm.7459]

Russian company "Daggerr" produce folding "Cincuedea" in art-deco style especially for EDC.

[@2adamast]

It looks just like a spear blade with short handle and cross guard. No surprise that knowing one they went for the other. Should they have redesigned their spears for lesser resistance?

[@4unkb0y]

I don't have a good source to hand (so, grain of salt...), but it seems there were indeed restrictions on civilian ownership of "spada" (swords) in much of renaissance Italy (as they were military weapons), & cinquedea were not considered swords under those rules.

[@paulballard6771]

I converted a cold steel smatchete machete into a short parazonium like sword. It is very easy to handle. Quick and light. Yet heavy enough to take a limb off. In some situations i use it as a large knife. Others a sword

[@wastedangelematis]

cool

[@Sam_Arwas]

Are the multiple fullers just for cosmetic purposes or is there an engineering reason not to just have a single wide one?

[@Harlequin43]

Those thorny grips mush be a pain to hold

[@Carbon762]

Let's start the discussion on how they were used, eh? My guess is they were used like bowie knives, since they seem too tip-heavy to hold "ice pick style", and the guard is too small for blade on blade fencing. Any thoughts?

[@nikitaonassis6090]

I am guessing if any library may contain documentation will be the Vatican library. Back in the day I had access as a researcher of architecture. It is not surprising treatises came from Swiss source, since they were essentially impoverished, that they prostituted their men to be the popes guards and other similar positions. Someone needs to be physically there as I dont think its digital, and most likely on the payroll, inventory lists, sales and purchases equivalent to start looking. Will write an email in but even if it got through, will need someone on site. A wild guess on its name and use something to do with construction, possibly 5 hole of christ. As you mentioned, it suddenly appeared, logically for a very select group.

[@nikitaonassis6090]

Swiss sources is the other source I would look at which I shall not since that would be looking for a needle in a hay stack compared to vatican book and manuscript keeping.

[@tatayoyo337]

Is cinquedea handling is close to type XIV sword ?

[@chuckmikey001]

I wonder how strong they really are, that seems like a really wide blade to have such a narrow "neck" at the hilt, i would be really interested in seeing a true combat ready version used and see how they perform.

[@christopherhubbard1766]

What do you think about the dusack sword and knife

[@GunFunZS]

If the smaller ones were used point down as a dagger, or even point down as a parrying dagger, the broad blade would cover a lot of the forearm.

[@GunFunZS]

***** Wasn't the premise that No One knows what systems were used with this tool. The methods you describe are the known methods for other tools. While they are relevant, there is absolutely zero evidence that those are the same methods used for these, or that they weren't. I could insult you, but that would be pointless. Only petty little men on the internet engage in name calling, and I wouldn't want to become one of those.

[@nikitaonassis6090]

In filipino use of the bolo, aka machete, or barung, the leaf shaped blade is broad enough to parry using the flat whilst protecting forearm. Whilst the flat is recommended, it is not a must as the spine is also used in a single edge barung. Speculation is that it might be a parrying blade in civilian use in narrow streets of cities in Italy. However, since this style appeared to appear abruptly, should be a very localised thing to the city or cities. Another research starting place may be world war 2 loot of Italy, as to where the looters mainly got them from, to narrow geographical search.

[@GunFunZS]

Nikita Onassis That's a good idea. I went to a museum which had a whole bunch of 1500s Italian close helm plate armor, probably tournament type. Maybe 6-8 suits. They were all WWII loot from various people.

[@Psiberzerker]

The "Best' way I found to fight with one, completely made up playing around with it, and with no historical basis whatsoever, is back grip, with my forearm braced in the fullers, like a small shield. Not really like a buckler at all, but as I understand, they were intended as close quarters defensive weapons. Pretty good cutting with a good grind (I made my own, single fuller, before Cold Steel came out with one) very shallow stabbing because of the pizza slice of steel behind the point, but you don't have to Kill a cutpurse, just protect your belt, and scare him off. In close quarters knife fights, it beats a knife, handily. Pretty sure that's what it's for, though I can't say with any surety that the shieldsword technique i came up with is anything like they were youse, it works in a phonebooth. Might even want to try it, it's a weird but fun way to fight. (Also as companion to a full side-sword, if you have room to swordfight.)

[@Alberad08]

I wonder what these strange cross sections that interrupt the fullers were for... ?

[@gideonwhitehead8062]

Matt do you have one of these in your collection? Or a reproduction? If so how does it feel to wield?

[@khoatran-pc6tb]

hmmm...excuse me for my ignorance but was this ever carried into battles? Sure,it's on the decorative side of stuffs but it seems stout enough for close quarter action?

[@scholagladiatoria]

+khoa tran They are mainly for civilians, but they probably were carried at backup weapons by some soldiers.

[@PJDAltamirus0425]

+scholagladiatoria I imagine with their length and design, they could be used similiarly to kaltsbagers.

[@beansnrice321]

Is it just me or does the extreme angle of the edge, caused by the slice of pizza profile, seem ike it would really help with slicing? =\

[@hakuorowitsuarunemitea8708]

Those handles look like they'd murder the inside of your hands..

[@RyanRyzzo]

+Vyce Bozeck Not at all. I don't have any cinquedeas, but I have a couple of daggers which have similar diamond-shaped grips.

[@stevedunn5546]

I saw a vid that mentioned cinquedea meant 5 fingers width?

[@wilowhisp]

Could the Cinquedea be the large dagger seen in Marozzo's book?

[@scholagladiatoria]

Yes I would say it is a form of cinquedea.

[@mallardtheduck406]

I always kinda liked these swords, they are unusual, perhaps they were designed to show fuller work?

[@TwentythreePER]

I only knew what this weapon was because of Forged In Fire. They are beautiful as they are deadly weapons. I was thoroughly impressed with the damage they can do. They cut a pig's spine with little effort.

[@crito3534]

The cinquedea doesn't really look like it was inspired by the roman pugio. Pugios had a very distinct blade shape. The triangle blade and crescent guard of cinquedeas reminds me of some late medieval knight swords.

[@whowantsabighug]

Did the British Isles have an equivalent 'not-quite-a-sword'-dagger?

[@Tananjoh]

+whowantsabighug I think long baselards were in use there. Later on they had the alehouse dagger www.stoccata.org/index.php/resources/articles/42-english-knife-fighting-the-alehouse-dagger

[@Rakadis]

How would one use something like this for self defence? Looks quite unwieldy.

[@lancerd4934]

+Notrollhere broad base and narrow double edged tip, and little hand protection. Ideally I think you'd want to pair it with a shield and thrust, much like a roman gladius. failing that, i have no idea.

[@Ranziel1]

+Notrollhere Good tip and a lot of heft in a small package. I imagine this thing can both thrust and cut well enough.

[@melchaios]

+Notrollhere It's filled with fullers, so I'd say it has a lower weight than it looks. Blacksmith was probably like "Yo dawg, I heard you like fullers, so we put a fuller in the middle of your other two fullers, so the blade weights less while it weights less"

[@melchaios]

***** I agree with your statement, that's why I mentioned the fullers, since one way to make blades more lively in the hand and manageable is to put fullers in it (or making it have distal taper, this weapon has both). All in all I'd have to say this "dagger" seems like a very good choice for self defense weapon, it looks sturdy and it actually gives me the impresion that it could cleave a man's hand; my only reservation is the handle since it looks quite uncomfortable

[@MrGrimm1911]

+Decay That was beautiful. "Mass is the currency of steel", I don't know if you're quoting something, but I am gonna have to save this.

[@RussellBarnhart-dw4kh]

I believe that there was military reports , they tended to wider in the blade than the civilian model ! ♈⚓⚓♈

[@Harquebuze]

These were more commonly called anelaces and were widely used outside of Italy, even as far as England.

[@sylvanstrength7520]

Basically a lengthened pugio!

[@godoftenors]

Has anyone tried using messer techniques with these?

[@Heresjonnyagain]

Did anyone dig up the source of this one decent artistic depiction of one worn?