American Reacts to Why Station Wagons Sell in Europe But NOT America..

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[@ZachComa]

I'm an American. I bought my parent's Volvo 850 wagon, soon after it saved us in a huge crash. With insurance money I got another used Volvo, but upgraded to a V70 T5 wagon. That car ruled and like its predecessor, was indestructible. I drove it almost to 300K miles before I sold it.

[@Matt09pearce]

V70 T5 sounds tasty! I have a diesel V50 here in spain.

[@ZachComa]

This was around 2004. I looked all over for a stick like my last one, but there were none to be found. There were 0 for sale in the US unless I wanted to go to Canada. Most V70s I test drove were absolute trash and not taken care of. The one I finally got was about three hours away in Northern Wisconsin, but totally worth it. It was a '98, so it had the old body style I was already used to. I bought it with 107K miles on it. Most people would say that's crazy, but most people don't buy Volvos. I took great care of it and did most of my own maintenance. I put almost another 200K on it.

[@BergenDev]

Volvo make great cars. civilian tanks without being a Hummer.

[@discostoo]

You're an American with great taste in motors. T5 is a beast!

[@ZachComa]

I also had a '01 C70 as well, with the same T5 engine. That was an even more insane car that I got quite a few speeding tickets in. I got rid of that one with 175K as a package deal with the V70. After that I got a '13 Civic Si new that I'm still driving. I was finally able to get a proper manual again like my old 850. The Si is still kicking at 168K, in fact, I just put new plugs in it last night and cleaned the MAF sensor.

[@politrzysta]

Audi RS6 is a fun thing. Most people don't expect being at the traffic lights along a wagon that has nearly 600 bph under the hood.

[@PointNemo9]

Bonnet*

[@davidboydarnott417]

A ken, it's like a herd of buffalo under the hood.🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 Mercedes do a 500bhp Touring Estate 👍 That parks itself at the touch of a button and can reverse the last 5 mins from memory (incase you get stuck down a tiny lane in Nice and can't open the doors)😂😂

[@gustavmeyrink_2.0]

Mercedes used to do a police version of their E63 AMG wagon with the electronic limiter removed for Autobahn police. It's top speed was around 206mph. Just remember that when you think you can outrun them in your Ferrari or Lamborghini.

[@MKitchen75]

would love to have Audi RS6 without badges and have fun at trafficlights XD and later pay huge amount of fines hahaha

[@gustavmeyrink_2.0]

@@MKitchen75 Deletion of badges is by far the most popular 'extra' ordered for new cars in Germany.

[@petrophaga8523]

wasn't it tax related? If i remember correctly, there was a program of the US government to make farm trucks cheaper in tax. So there was the choice between a small car or a big truck for the same tax burden. That's why Americans stop buying station wagons or bigger cars: If you need more space than a car just buy the cheaper truck. Also there is this weird believing in US that cars cannot haul trailers

[@GoldenCroc]

Well it all boils down to protectionism and marketing... The "chicken tax" more lax emissions/CAFE standards and similar being the former, and the "weird belief" that car cannot haul being the latter. the latter is not weird, in as much as with good marketing, you can make people believe literally anything. Just another one of those successful campaigns.

[@villeeronen8263]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/o4Knlpp5ps6JpLc this expains the true backgroud of the US love of huge cars Not tax but the US emission regulation has a blind spot for trucks. Then the US automotive industry used this lobbed law to create the SUV (based on trucks) and started to market them. They succeeded and people are bying. Also the way too cheap gas prizes there help, because sane EU consumer buys such cars with horrible economy.

[@aphextwin5712]

The chicken tax only applies to (light) trucks but not to SUVs. It includes vans like a Ford transit or Mercedes Sprinter.

[@AVDB95]

I don't think it's purely tax related. Pick ups were roadtax free for years in Belgium, only recently did that change to only free if conected to a buisness (I don't know the situation for the rest off europe) yet they aren't common. Vans are verry common as they are almost always more practical and also roadtax free even for personal use. Small hatchbacks and SUV's are probably the most common vehicles over here. Wagons aren't super common anymore but greatly outnumber sedans. As noted we do haul trailers with our normal cars, every car has a max number on it's paper that needs to be respected. My D segment sedan is allowed to pull 1700kg, which is more than enough for normal use. Also the total weight on a normal driving lisence is limited to 3500 kg (vehicle + trailer) anyway so unless you get a special license you can't use the extra allowed pulling weight off a big truck.

[@aphextwin5712]

@@AVDB95 There two regulatory aspects that helped to make pickups (often referred to as trucks in this context) more popular in the U.S.. One is the ‘chicken tax’, a U.S. import duty of 25% on pickups and vans. It sheltered American manufacturers from competition for that segment and thus probably motivated them to focus on that market. A second one is less stringent fuel consumption regulations for trucks compared to cars. In regard to towing capabilities, the U.S. (compared to Europe) requires a higher tongue weight (as percentage of the trailer weight) which naturally than requires a beefier suspension on the vehicle pulling the trailer (which generally means a larger and heavier vehicle). There are also differences in the braking systems of trailers that have the same effect. I once looked up examples for the towing capacity of the same car model in the U.S. and Europe: - Mercedes GLC 300 is rated in the U.S. for 3500 lbs or 1588 kg. The same model (2 l engine, 255 hp, vehicle weight ~1900 kg) is allowed to tow 2400 kg in Germany. - VW Tiguan is rated in the U.S. for 2200 lbs or 998 kg. In Germany the same model (2 l engine, 184 hp, vehicle weight ~1700 kg) can tow up to 2500 kg. - VW Golf (2 l engine, 184 hp, vehicle weight ~1400 kg) can tow between 1600 and 1800 kg (12% or 8% slope) in Germany while VW USA states that it is not recommended for towing.

[@znail4675]

I think the main issue is that US keeps gas prices artificially low and that lets people ignore fuel consumption somewhat when picking car type. It's ironic how hostile people in general is in US to any gas price increases while still picking fuel guzzling cars instead of more fuel efficient ones.

[@readyforlol]

Trucks and SUV themselves are maintained artificially cheap on the US market thanks to the light truck exception letting manufacturers get away with selling heavier, less efficient and more dangerous vehicules. They’re incentivized extra hard to abuse that exception because of tarifs levied on foreign "light trucks" making them artificially expensive compared to US trucks, skewing competition in their advantage unfairly in that segment. US car manufacturers have been lobbying for the better part of a century to reach that sorry state of affairs.

[@acfiv1421]

@@readyforlol Exactly - CAFE standards applied to trucks mean that, starting in the 80s, you could buy a big Suburban, for just a little more money (or even the same money) as a smaller station wagon. Looked at objectively, the station wagon can carry about as many people and as much cargo as an SUV, and is much more fuel-efficient because of its lower profile. The only thing the SUV is better at is ground clearance for offroad use, but 99% of SUVs never go offroad. Station wagons should be the preferred option, but stupid government policy and bureaucrats pushed the public towards SUVs. Good job, guys! 🙄 You wanted us to use less gasoline, and your policies pushed us to gas guzzlers. 50 years CAFE has been in place, and they can't even admit that it was a mistake and repeal it and replace it with a simple fuel tax, which would force people to really think before buying an SUV. And people want the same people to be in charge of our schools, healthcare?

[@christiang5209]

​@@acfiv1421Another advantage and disadvantage of suv is safety, they make the crash worse for one outside the suv but inside you are safer. And people are egos ... Usually cars are designed that they share the impact, 9 guess many people saw a little car with few damage and absevere damaged luxury limosine. .. Heavier/bigger cars usually transform easier, but this just work if the hit each other at the same hight. (hopefully you could understand) Also higher cars are worst with pedestiran crash, because especially kids end under the car and not on top of it.

[@Stuntman175]

@@christiang5209 Crashes that involve cars and SUVs tend to have more fatalities than crashes involving only cars, but not in the way that you think. SUV's are easier to roll due to their high center of gravity and their roofs end up crushing the passengers because SUV's are heavy and the roof structure is impacted repeatedly. To put things in perspective, if you place your hands above your head and I put a 20 kg (44 lbs) object on your hands, you can probably handle it. But now, if instead of standing, you're doing a handstand and I place the same weight on your feet, your arms will crumble almost immediately. Most SUV's sold nowadays can barely pass the moose test without significant electronic aids assisting the test driver, because you just can't beat physics.

[@christiang5209]

@@Stuntman175 It does make sense, even when i struggled a bit with your hand stand example ;) Cause i am expected an example for stability of the rotating point, which is imho the less intuitiv concept ... and not about the stability of the roof woth biomechnics which is not that much comparable. I guess a hint about the 'cages' race cars have to avoid it, would show the necessarity better. Overall i didnt understand why so many new cars a suv, i believe the trends towards then started around 2000 here in germany. We still have quite a lot station cars, but fewer minivans.

[@Starkiller935]

A lot of European families still only have one car so a station wagon is a popular choice because it's kind of an all-rounder. Like you mentioned, it's not that huge so you have better fuel mileage and handling while also having ample cargo and passenger space. SUVs and crossovers especially often look big from the outside but when you open the trunk it only has as much space as a Golf.

[@fireblow6842]

this is my biggest grief with modern cars. their engines become more efficient each year and the cars get bigger too. yet, they also become heavier and more loaded with tech making them eat through lot's of fuel and shrinking the space inside. also besides that the old cars just look better

[@arranchace1306]

My Citroen C5 stationwagon is the most pragmatic car i ever owned, pneumatic air suspension, 3 meter loading floor, that can double as a camper if needed, 2 persons with can sleep in full lenght in the back, i shoved a few weeks ago a whole couch in the back, so i even use it a a movingtruck. But it still a 5 meter long car, can take 6 passengers with me (ok officially 4, but its big enough to hold 6) nice 3.5 litre v6 with 250 Bhp, and it drives like a rolls royce due its suspension. Why i would want anything else..

[@sandersson2813]

@@fireblow6842 Like what ? What old, mass produced car that isn't something like a classic Jag or Merc looks better?

[@sandersson2813]

@@arranchace1306 Because it's old and pretty dull, but I get your sentiment.

[@fireblow6842]

@@sandersson2813 most stuff from 1980-2010. volvo station wagons, renault clio, peugot, the vw golf r32, audi, the old subarus. Old american muscle cars from the 50's-70's. There is so much cool stuff. But from your other comment I gather that you're likely a supporter of EV's and possibly Apple so I'm not surprised that you lack taste.

[@fernandonagle]

I'm brazilian and presently living in Portugal. My sister-in-law's husband is German and we use to visit them frequently. The 2 best cars I've rented in Europe were SW. A Renault Talisman in 2016 and a Seat Leon in 2022. My sister-in-law's husband drives an Audi A6 SW and it's fantastic, specially on the Autobahn where there's no speed limit. The Seat SW made around 40,5 mpg on gasoline. Although SUV stands for Sport Utility Vehicle, SW are way more sporty than SUVs.

[@petebeatminister]

I remeber when Volvo showed up in the 1993 BTCC season with the 850 Estate as a race car. Everybody was giggling about then. That soon stopped after they proved to be very competitive, also thanks to good drivers like Richard Rydell and Jan Lammers.

[@UncleNewy1]

When the UK police started outrunning everyone in the Volvo T5 estate.....I think all the chav boy racers decided they had to have one of those.....and then It seamed estate cars could be cool after that.

[@glynnwright1699]

..and the usual Tom Walkinshaw strategy of 'challenging' the regulations. There is a video on what they did to make them competitive, which included modifying the cylinder head in a manner that beggared belief.

[@AlxRacing]

@@glynnwright1699…cylinder head gasket if I may 😁

[@glynnwright1699]

@@AlxRacing They shaved one side of the head to straighten the inlet port airflow. The head sat on the block at a significant angle. Walkinshaw did something similar to the XJ220s when I went to Le Mans - and got disqualified as a result.

[@philiprowney]

I have an 850 TS Wagon in Emerald Green, so fast and handle great as standard ;-)

[@gundalfthelost1624]

I've owned 9 cars since my first, 8 out of those have been wagons. As a Swede, I cannot for any reason see myself buy a sedan or SUV when wagons exist. The only car I owned that wasn't a wagon, was my '68 Dodge Dart. But fuel prices and long winters eventually made me sell that car and now I am back with a wagon. Pretty much the same goes for everyone I know. Wagon is just the way of life here.

[@Sakhmeov]

Just tax reasons. And US emission standard regulations which the manufacturers can skirt around just enough with pickups and SUVs - which are basically the same thing 'cause they're built on the same platforms. The "popular opinion" is the same as with modern politics; It's just the down-the-line combination of marketing, selective surveying and market cultivation, and set incentives from already invested development, driven on by the companies themselves. It's not organic whatsoever. Min senaste vart en BMW 530XD kombi. Jävla elpul med bra komponenter men dålig elektrisk layout, och jag hatar alla dessa förbannade onödiga pryttlar. Men den vart så bra i övrigt, och den drivlinan vart bara underbar. 0.63 milen i en slugger på nästan 2 ton med fyrhjulsdrift och 350hp/810Nm? Ehm... Ja, jag körde en Dodge Laramie ett tag där med jobbet, och den vart också ett litet underverk; Jänkarna har då fanimej kommit sig upp i världen kvalitetsmässigt. Men Bayern vinner ändå alla dagar ur praktisk synpunkt... Currently trying to get hold of an Alfa 159 with the 2,4 diesel I5. Also a station, of course.

[@sophietarafiona]

Same for me, Opel, Volvo, Skoda, VW - but all were/are stationwagons. I made some test drives in a Jeep Grand Cherokee, Toyota Landcruiser and a Skoda Kodiaq for funsies, to impress my kids a bit, but for the live of me I could not justify seriously getting one instead of a stationwagon.

[@miki1510]

I had the pleasure to be a passenger in an Audi RS6 Avant. That car is a freaking missile!!! You don't expect a car of that size to go that quick! And it looks sick too!

[@seelenwinter6662]

then youu never lived in europe.... there are a lot of that cars available in europe.... mercedes, bmw, porsche, vw... even ford, skoda, opel or skoda... or french cars too... of course volvo also... if you want power, everyone of this brands got cars for you... we are not so boring in europe like in the usa.... there everybody drives that boring ford truck or an boring subaru... and i bet all i have, that trump voters are most of that buyers.... because their brain is so little, they only can chose between 2 cars and 10 or more different cars are much to much for them... ^^

[@lbergen001]

Yeah, such a car makes me drool.🤤

[@whiskeysk]

RS6 Avant is THE ideal family vehicle!

[@siriuspyramid7441]

Yes Audi RS6 is a monster with 4 WD a youtuber from Monaco (GMK) had one with over 750 HP 🤯. It wasn't a family car anymore, it was a family rocket 🤣 !

[@siriuspyramid7441]

He (GMK) also tried The Audi RS6 MTM edition with 1001 HP 😨😂! Awesome "car"!

[@littleDutchie92]

@4:24 hell yeah the Şkoda Octavia wagon. When i still had a company car i drove one of these and it was the greatest cars i ever had!! Great value for money and a ton of space in the back! I now bought a car of my own and again purchased a station wagon. Just small enough to drive and park in small european roads but lots of space in the back.

[@darrylweathers6764]

Estate cars we call them here in the UK, the Audi RS6 and RS4 have been popular the last 20 years. Definitely look into the performance versions, the 2008-2010 Audi RS6 and the 2007-2010 BMW M5 wagons both had V10 engines

[@Macz83]

Same here in The Netherlands. Also 63 Amg's and RS3's are really popular.

[@JP-xd6fm]

The RS6 and RS4 *are* the performance versions... For a normal family without a ton of money to spend in gasoline, the RS versions are too much.

[@melluzi]

You can get brand new M3 estate while in the US it's ofc not available. Price wise it's not that bad, starts at 75k. Audi RS4 estate starts at 87,5k which is way too much for a middle class IMHO.

[@WoodenViking]

⁠​⁠@@JP-xd6fmThere are also standard A6 and A4 wagons or if Audis are too expensive, there are also tons of alternative brands so no worries there

[@LarryHatch]

They sold Chrysler 300 Hemi-powered "estate wagons" in Europe but not in he US! They had Dodge Magnum bodies but a 300 grill and tons of power.

[@ussessu]

It's strange that they are not popular in the USA, where there are very long distances and good roads. These cars provide great comfort for driver and passengers.

[@Blackadder75]

Americans are brainwashed by advertisements and the SUV / Truck ads sell a higher seating and viewing position 'for safety' I would feel much safer in a Volvo, Benz, BMW or Toyota wagon, but that's just me

[@Kacpa2]

@@Blackadder75 It's mix of marketting brainwashing coasting of very stupid attitudes to wagons born out of horrible american wagons of late 1970s and 1980s. It was big push from 1990s, and it catered heavily to women who are also main people in their families driving their spouses to choose SUV, because women want to sit up high and feel secure and "kill and not be killed" in an accident. Which just spun up that arms race of size and height more and more, while minivans and in extend wagons were negatively marketted as "soccer mum" vehicles. Then artificial increase of pricing of wagons that was caused by idiotic legislation, both on import fees aswell as CAFE standards being incredibly harsh on cars, but lenient of SUVS and Trucks, making it cheaper to just make SUVs and Trucks. Which on its own is just incredibly moronic and counterproductive on side of who ever pushed for this legislation, it should be other way around. Needlessly big vehicles should be penilized or atleast equally penilized. Then prices would make sense. As its not more expensive to make a wagon than an SUV. Its Just as cheap as a hatchback or sedan save for a tiny bit of R&D and materials, but its still less than SUV. Prices should reflect that if not for the law and fees. It's just a dosen idiotic factors that are actively against wagons for no good reason and it boils down to money in a dumbest way possible. It could be reversed, if someone with a functioning brain would fix the automotive regulations(make CAFE standards more lenient on cars and stop being lenient on trucks and SUVs for a start) and revoke stupid chicken tax fees and so on, or 25 year rule.(as an european i can easily import newest american cars here if i wanted to but you cant do the same due to stupid law once again...)

[@Blackadder75]

@@Kacpa2 I guess they have too many powerful lobbyists that bribed their politicians into making those anti car pro truck laws

[@blakespower]

@@Blackadder75 not americans we have to take what they give us! I have always bought American cars but now there are few cars lefts Ford doesnt make any but a Mustang and Chevy only has the Malibu I think this is its last year too! I PREFER a low car they get better gas mileage. I want to buy the new camry but its a long waiting list I can wait though I guess

[@Blackadder75]

@@blakespower why not buy a decent used car, a few years old?

[@CycloTourist]

For many years, until its discontinuation, the Volkswagen Passat in the USA was very different from the Volkswagen Passat in Europe. The American-built Passat was larger on the outside, but there were fewer engine choices and the interior was simpler. In addition, the Passat was only available as a sedan in the USA, while the Passat is still available as a station wagon in Europe. The European sedan was discontinued years ago.

[@pascalolivier4458]

And the current Passat Wagon is so beautiful. I wish we could have it on North America.

[@vophatechnicus]

@@pascalolivier4458 I hope you dont refer to the upcoming Passat B9 .. 'cause this is really the ugliest Passat ever built ;)

[@IIShana-chan]

Visited my aunt in NC last year. And yeah, I have to say that the pure size difference in cars made my jaw drop. Back here in Germany we thought we had a "rather big" car (Renault Grand Scenic) but damn, that car is dwarfed by the RAM 2500 the husband of my aunt owns.

[@ulfdanielsen6009]

My wife and I are the proud owners of two Volvo V70 Mk.Is from the late 90s,- that means we are driving cars that are more than 25 years old. One automatic, one manual,- both with turbos. Best highway and freeway tractors in existence. In Sweden these cars traditionally are called Estate cars,- to go with the " Esquire living in the rural countryside" image thought they originally were built around. They´re wide, low, sleek, 4wd, the interior is comfortable enough to make you feel like you´re sitting in the cabin of your own bombardier 350 jet, the folding rear seats gives you double the cargo space of that of even a Chevy Tahoe and thanks to the insane Swedes ( I´m Danish,- I´m supposed to think like that) ( the same Swedes who, when getting the idea of tuning Volvos, prove themselves to have have impeccable taste) you can order ANY aftermarket part you´d desire to tune, recomp, customize and style your car to your hearts desire including mechanical tuning with tower struts, sports shocks and springs, widebody front-, rear- and side skirts, sports interior styling and stage one to three ECU chipping that´ll lift the power from the usual 200-250 bhp to somewhere around the 315-320 bhp mark complete with Simons sports exhaust (outside of Polestar the only officially approved brand by Volvo themselves for aftermarket exhausts,- any other brand is simply incorrect and would be considered an offense to any proper Volvo aficinado in the know,- and in very poor taste added to that!) to give you proper sports performance characteristics in what is essentially a familiy wagon. For a 25 years old car! We´ve been talking about by now upgrading them to something more modern,- but why? For an infotainment system that informs you that you´re turning whenever you are....? If and when we do it will undoubtably be to something similar to what we already have,- only in a newer package. An AWD Volvo V90 2.0 ltr. with supercharger and turbo giving it some 320 bhp,- in a fully modern hybrid electric/ gasoline package,- looking like a sleek machine from a science fiction film perhaps? A Volvo it´s gonna be. Volvo FTW.

[@stanislavczebinski994]

Here in Germany, SUVs are very popular, too. Not so much the super-big ones - but mid-size and small ones. Today, resistance starts to form amongst city residents. As SUVs are bigger, heavier and offer worse view to the driver they are hazardous to pedestrians - children in particular. Same goes for bicyclists - especially as bike riding is seen as ideal kind of individual transportation in many European countries. No pollution, no noise - and very little neccessary parking space. I'm quite sure anual car taxes will rise here soon significantly above a certain weight limit. As soon as that happens SUVs will go as fast as they came.

[@duke6321]

However, a vehicle tax based on weight is also a slap in the face for electric cars, because they are also significantly heavier than the types with a combustion engine. The electric cars are in a weight class of just under 2 tons to well over 2.5 tons of vehicle mass. The weight of an SUV is not necessarily higher than that of a sedan or station wagon. Even convertibles are sometimes quite heavy, I can see that in my convertible of the so-called middle class with sufficiently strong biturbo and all-wheel drive. Even this weighs a lot with a curb weight of 1925kg.

[@maxii2975]

I would say weight and size must accounted ^^` @@duke6321

[@erigabu]

@@duke6321 lots of countries in eu, the electric cars battery is "not part", to the car net weight, what is used for count the tax (or the tax is performance related instead of weight)

[@santaclaus0815]

The history of the station wagon in Germany is closely linked to summer vacation trips, traditionally Italy, later Croatia, France and Spain, and also lakes in the Alps. The North Sea and Baltic Sea are also popular destinations for summer vacations. The station wagon is ideal for vacation trips. It is big enough for 14 days' luggage for a family of four and small enough to be economical and humane in finding a parking space. (American families are often larger than 4 people (2 kids), in Europe this is rather the exception.) The same applies to winter vacations to ski resorts. Skis, bicycles and luggage boxes can be mounted on the outside, typically on the roof of the vehicle. There are also bike racks for the back, which sit on the trailer hitch. The station wagon can also tow camping trailers. So vacations at campsites are also possible with the station wagon. The station wagon is a workhorse, or perhaps more of a mule. Small but powerful and undemanding.

[@top40researcher31]

For 60 years, Australians were in love with station wagons. Back in the day, they accounted for nearly half of all Holden Commodore sales, continuing a trend that really exploded with the FE Station Sedan of 1956.

[@tibomoltini2851]

poor holden, the brand is dead now, a part of australian history for museums now..

[@top40researcher31]

@@tibomoltini2851 yes the one at gippsland in victoria a must to visit

[@samjoseph8845]

RS6 Audi are the kings of the wagen available around the world! I drove one when I was in Belgium... And they are incredible! And yes I am a car lover but this specific car is a monster that u can use for any kind of usage u want... Day to day work drive, family trip, making Chrono on some track, putting your new furniture into the trunk 😅 This car is amazing!!!! Cheers from Cambodia PS: the market here is similar than US... PS 2 my brother is now drive a v60 Volvo polestar in Germany ... This car is the most secured cars known today with that much horsepower

[@PedroConejo1939]

My preference is always an estate car, and about half of the cars I've owned have been estates. I'm on my second Citroën C5 estate, but will struggle to replace it - the C5X is part estate. I've moved house a considerable distance with a C5 and trailer. The car is a Tardis.

[@adrianmclean9195]

The Citroen DS Safari and CX Break, were massive with optional seats.

[@Thomazo17]

In the Netherlands the police drive Audi RS6es, specifically because they are stupid quick and able to carry detainees very safely.

[@Jim-Scott]

I've got a Volvo V60 D4, and love it. I took all of our team kit from here in England to Switzerland a few months ago for the tug of war World Championships, plus three of us with our luggage for the week. Perfectly comfortable for the couple of thousand miles travelled. As I understand it Volvo UK are stopping marketing estates (which is what we call them) in favour of SUVs and electric vehicles.

[@nigelpluck3342]

I’m in Ireland, and about 6 weeks ago, I spotted an unusual 2012 Octavia Estate/Wagon. It was a 4x4. There are plenty of Octavias and Octavia Estates here, it’s the only 4x4 Octavia I’ve ever seen

[@helloweener2007]

SUV = Senioren Und Versehrte (seniors and invalids)

[@haveaseatplease]

Don't forget soccer mums.

[@pr1sm55]

For me, as a single male, the staiton wagon is the perfect car. Buying stuff for the house (planks, rebarb, amenities), going on long trips with a lot of luggage, working out of it and even camping in it is all SUPER convenient! You get a huge space with the backseats down and the rear bench cushions removed. I had times where I almost drove 20 hours in it with a few stops here and there at 6-9 liters of Diesels per 100km if the highway is not with a lot of hills and some good flowing traffic. I would never live without at least 1 station wagon, even now or in the future when having a family.

[@indus3270]

One reason you don't find as many US sized cars in Europe is because there are old narrow city streets that the average american car would get stuck in. And for the record, I'm the happy owner of a white 2016 Skoda Octavia Combi with tinted windows, because it's great to have practicality look this damn sleek!

[@partymanau]

So a Truckster would not be good?

[@alexgrimm354]

​@@partymanauwhen would it be good?

[@annehoog]

@@partymanau absolutely not. There are now two American style truck owners trying to park in my neighbourhood regularly. In the US they would probably be considers small for a truck, here they take up two parking bays and when parked parellel a third of the road surface. Also navigating this city with the cyclists, pedestrian and all kids kids out while sitting in that huge thing with all the blind spots all around is downright dangerous.

[@-Yurkey]

I live in Croatia , we have a 2012 Ford Mondeo Wagon and a 2006 Honda Civic hatchback (and a 2023 VW Caddy van for work)...I'd sooner give up the other two before giving up the wagon...just the other week we went to Switzerland for New Years with the old Wagon and it preformed flawlessly, it ate up the highway (that's about 2000km there and back),didn't even need the roof mount, everything fit in the old trunk ...btw if you are ever going to drive in Switzerland, be aware that the Swiss are a little bit stricter than most...we got so many stinkeyes while we were waiting for my cousin who lives there. When I asked him why, he said "Because you didn't turn off the engine, btw that's also a fine if a cop sees you" ...and I told him "But we were cold" and he replied "Nobody gives a shit, you need to turn off the engine while waiting" ...Now I believe that the "start-stop" system began its life in Switzerland 😂

[@robbiebubble3670]

I'm from Germany and my dad has always been driving his wagons since I can remember. He just loves the space you get in those cars, we always call him when moving haha, but you also get some decent power if you just wanna have a bit of fun. Recently he said he'd love to have a truck but with gas prices here it's just impossible for the normal working class to afford a truck and the gas bill lwhile not sacrificing other more important parts in life.

[@MrAnimegucker]

In germany a lot of those Wagon or as we call them here “Kombi“ are sold to Companies fun fact, a lot of Offices and Companies give them out to their employees as their work car so if you are on the Autobahn and see an A4/A6, C/E Class Wagon or a 3/5 Series Wagon its highly likely its a Company Car

[@Patrick-fk4ef]

Back in the '80s and '90s, a lot of Millennials' parents had station wagons or minivans. They were boring and unattractive (but practical). Then in the late '90s/early 2000s, those same parents started buying SUVs, which looked cooler than the wagons/minivans, but they guzzled gas (cheap at the time) and didn't handle/ride as well. At the same time, the government's CAFE fuel economy standards continued to increase, but thanks to corporate lobbying "light trucks" (basically any regular pickup or SUV) had less-strict standards to meet. As the Millennials grew to adulthood and started having families of their own during and after the '08-'09 recession, they remembered wagons and minivans being "not cool," but they also remembered their parents' gas-guzzling, poor-riding SUVs. There was market demand for something that looked like an SUV but got better gas mileage and handled more like a car. The car companies sold a ton of SUVs, but needed to improve their CAFE ratings. Thus, the crossover was born.

Hi Ian, Czechia here. I still use my old Skoda Forman (Favorit station wagon) as a daily drive and I'm happy with it, but also have a Renault Scenic (compact MPV) at my hand and I tend to believe it is even more practical as the wagons do have some down points: - the overall length of wagons doesnt help with parking, also the low driver seat makes it harder to guess the distances outside the car - the cargo area in compact MPV offers similar volume but easier access compared to station wagon - older (or US-sized) people often find it hard to squat into low-seated cars in general (and the average age of populaction is rising) Otherwise, here in CZ we used to love our rear-engined Skodas, which obviously just came as sedan or coupe, while other brands were practically unavailable, but it all changed with Skoda Forman, Felicia Combi and Octavia Combi. Also I'd suggest you to check out the Wartburg W353 Tourist from the DDR, these were not easily available in east-bloc countries but it was a hell of practicality in one package! Myself I was drawn towards wagons by Fiat Marea SW (I had two, 1.6 and 1.8 petrol), then for some time I tried the US-based Opel SIntra (rebadged Chevrolet Venture SWB) but the ride was awful, so I'm back to European cars since then. 😀

[@mradriankool]

I remember a BMW poster add that just ran with the line “what can you get in an estate car? We got an M5 in ours” those & The TWR Volvo touring cars are why I love estates. Had an A6s audi last year it was a beast.

[@rubenh7338]

My parents used to drive a 940 Polar and I vividly remember having bad-weather picknicks with the 4 of us sitting in the trunk.

[@polpan1973]

Since you have mentioned Skoda, I am the proud owner of the latest Octavia station wagon. The numbers may appear funny in the US, as it has a 1.5 liter - 4-cylinder engine, which produces 150BHP. Performance wise, it is far from impressive, but it is very decent for a family car. With almost 18 cubic feet of trunk space (Up to the window and with the back seats in use. If you fill it up higher, it is much more) and with an actual consumption at 45 MPG (at the time gas costs 7.63 USD/gallon). Station wagon cars have exactly the same setup, performance and dimensions as sedans. You just get more space at the back, which is very useful. 😎

[@h3raf0x]

The Audi RS6 is real Dreamcar. You have comfortly enough space for a Family with Kids, the weekly Groceries, travel and more. On the other hand you sit in a V8 with 630Hp, AWD, runs from 0-100 Kmh in 3,4 seconds and goes up to 305Kmh (189mph) topspeed. Its just crazy.

[@pinocchioflekles]

Ever since 2005 I have owned Station Wagons. By far the best vehicles in terms of comfort and practicality. I have owned a BMW M5 wagon and loved it. Now I own an MB E 63 S Wagon. It is incredible. Fast, comfortable and practical.

[@MellonVegan]

12:25 Same for Vauxhall in the UK. It's just Opel rebranded (including the most common car model in the UK).

[@mrrayner7162]

We have a 2019 diesel Skoda Octavia wagon, we got it because we had a big dog and it's amazing as a family car too, with plenty of space for 2 pushchairs and 2 car seats. How they lost favour is beyond me - especially with Audi's RS6, Alpina B/D 3/5s and a whole host of others (Skoda Octavia VRS Wagons are damn fine too).

[@joey0988]

In Ireland we call them Estates.

[@user1812]

Hello from Croatia. My family loves diesel wagons. My dad drives VW Passat wagon, brother drives Škoda Octavia wagon and I have VW Golf wagon. All 3 are diesels...

[@outlawking4106]

The Audi RS6 is a beast of a car, my brothers just had his tuned to 920bhp and it’s something else…was already a weapon standard

[@Dafoodmaster]

I think that seeing a couple big rappers driving audi wagons in their music videos could revive the segment.

[@bonevgm]

I ordered a new Skoda Superb Station Wagon. It should arrive in a week or 2. So much space, very reliable and cheap to maintain.

[@vanhellish3376]

I'm on my 7th station wagon and after the first one i didn't look after other type of a car. It gives you the stability of normal car, but you have some needed space

[@rolandratz1]

Hi Ian - The fact is that in Germany it is forbidden to drive automobiles on 95% of forest paths. The people who drive in the forests are all forest workers, foresters, and possibly also farmers who own forests and/or have cutting permits. “Normal people” have no business driving vehicles on forest paths. That's why passenger cars with all-wheel drive don't actually make sense for "normal" traffic. Of course, there are many well-heeled people who buy a four-wheel drive vehicle for city or intercity traffic, but there is rarely an adequate reason behind it. There have been a lot of SUVs and mini-SUVs in the last decade because they offer larger cargo space, but actually even a slightly larger SUV is in most cases just a matter of wanting to own one. Our family is now driving the third SUV from PEUGEOT (first a 3008 Allure with 103 HP, then a 2008 and now a 2008 Allure from 2021 with 136 HP, all with an automatic transmission). I am very satisfied with the vehicles, but I have to say that they are too overpowered even for our driving area. But ultimately it was a question of price, because German brands, even and especially VW, cannot afford this level of equipment and quality.

[@wildtrak6735]

You should check out the Ford Wagons: Focus and Fusion in particular. The average american eye never saw their wagon versions and they are really nice to look at

[@fairandbalanced65]

When it came to driving and space I still think my 4 litre straight six, manual gearbox Cherokee XJ was the best car I ever had. We had two of them and they were pretty indestructible. Liked them more than my Landcruiser

[@driver288]

Volvos are as mentioned in the video, in the premium segment up there with Audi and Mercedes. But the price difference between the sedan models that DO sell well and the wagon models are as low as $1000 more. So in that aspect they’re affordable for customers in that car segment but not chosen

[@KjetilBalstad]

SUV's in Europe are typically not the large Suburban type, but the smaller cars like Toyota Rav4 or Ford Kuga etc.

[@terryross1754]

I believe it's 2 main reasons: economy vs performance, and comfort/roadholding. I have a Mondeo diesel station automatic. Dual-zone climate control, heated/cooled seats, navi, (adaptive) xenon/HID w/auto height regulation, In Germany (where allowed) I cruise all day long at 100 mph, with plenty room, comfortable ride, and solid roadholding. AND 33 mpg or better.

[@apileppanen5431]

I have 2 Volvo 940 turbo wagons, and those are really good cars. My wife drives the one that is 1994 7-seater and I drive 1993 raised beater.

[@pinkrole2210]

My parents had a 75 PS VW Passat Diesel in the 90s it ran for 950 thousand kilometers and used about 6L/100km.

[@stefanholmstrom1968]

In Finland STWs gained popularity steadily since the 1990s. STWs have been the most popular body-style for many cars in Finland in the 2000s. Some years a majority (even 60-70%) of some car models (Golf/Passat, Megane, Octavia, Primera etc) has been sold as STWs in Finland. The last years, however, their share of the market has dwindled. I need a STW, it's the only reasonable car if you for example have a summer cottage. SUVs often don't have space enough for anything. I mean ... I had a Renault Megane STW and got my BSA dirt racer in the back (just took the front wheel off) and drove to Germany, quite practical.

[@ichbinmorsl5836]

In Germany your two cars wouldnt be called "Kombi" (Station Wagons) but rather SUV´s ^^

[@theamunra]

When I was young I wondered why so many people had wagons/estates, but then I got my own apartment, got kids, it all made sense. Tons more room in the trunk. I got a Skoda Ocatvia, with more room in the back than most SUV's in Europe. IF I lived in the US and had the money, I'd buy those big ass trucks, just because I could. :p

[@ninaoman]

Our firend bought a Ford Ranger here in EU, and my bf went to check it out. Well, the verdict, while its practial as a towing truck(thats why it was bought) otherwise they said its like a tractor(my bf was againts it afterwards, he a forester and wants something ruggid) . We love our station wagons(fuel vs preformace and space four our stuf)

[@thedarkmittetoast7967]

I am French, and my 2 last cars are "station wagon" as you call it, here in France, we use to call "break" or more recently "SW " (sportwagon , mostly for Peugeot) , every brand has their own name. I now own a 307 SW . For me its very useful ... i love this kind of cars, and my dream would be an Audi RS4/6 Avant ... One thing here in Europ ... Petrol is so expensive, some of just can't afford it ... and not worth it, at least in my opinion

[@tobbe1312]

I’m swedish & we love fast stationwagons. Most off us like German like Audi rs6 or Bmw m3 or Mercedes AMG. We also have dogs soo it’s perfect. Fast ones we sometime call Sleepers. My favorit is Bmw Alpina B5

[@kevinbecker1542]

Iam from Germany and I have to agree because I love Station Wagons, btw in Germany we call them „Kombi“ or in full Kombinationskraftwagen 😂 I bought an 2012 Mercedes C220 Diesel as a Coupé 3 years ago, just because I knew the previous owner. My plan was to buy it as a Station Wagon with the AMG Line because of the practicability, the sporty suspension and the 170 Diesel HP from the 2,2litre Diesel. It is enough for driving over 200 km/h in my Coupé even over 230. And if iam going for a long drive with 100-130 km/h it consumes only 4-5 litres on 100/km. Love the combination from a nice Diesel with a stationwagon. Greets from Germany

[@tntfreddan3138]

15:30 You can get a Volvo V60 Polestar Engineered for about 70k USD. The ICE engine alone produce 310hp and with the electric motors you have a total power output of 455hp and 523lb-ft of torque. That's more than most pick-up trucks in the US. You have AWD, too, so you get a 0-100km/h time of 4.2 seconds. That means you'll smoke Corvettes and even some Ferraris and Porsches at red-lights if you feel like it.

[@niclasedelsten6428]

you make great videos. I like how you embrace things outside of America. Im Swedish, I myself drive a Skoda Octavia station wagon 2016 1.6d fwd 7 speed dsg. I am really pleased! quite ok comfort, large luggage, roomy for the driver dam good place for passengers. miles (10km) per liter of diesel is around 0.55 towards the end of 2023 diesel cost SEK 22/liter = 2.24usd but was up to SEK 28/liter. now 2024 SEK 17.8/liter diesel = 1.74 usd 1 US gallon = 3.785 liters

[@asbjrnhaurum2568]

Just to make it clear, the E-class for 66k is also mid to high end wagon, they have the C-class wagon that is the "cheap" wagon 👍👍

[@adrianmclean9195]

I'll take the HSV VF II, Tourer supercharged wagon and 6 speed manual, that the Cadillac platform was probably based upon, along with the Camaro - even though the GM top brass would have you think was American. I wonder if Mark Simcoe had a hand in the Cadillac design ?

[@wisecountryman49]

Well as a european, as many like myself, we simply like how they look. Yes, off course they are practical but if you put an Audi A6 sedan side by side to an Avant (wagon in Audi language), you will choose the Avant in a heartbeat. BMW, VW, Skoda and french manufacturers folowes the design. They are not actually designed as wagon but as longer hatchbacks. And that makes a lot of difference in design result.

[@matorix003]

My dad has an suv cause we need the extra space plus also the more off-road focussed capabilities so that’s just more practical. But if we wouldn’t need all that much space or the off-road features, which most people don’t, then we’d most likely have a wagon too

[@LinaGenX]

Carco space, and either electric, or hybrid fuelled is the most important thing when buying a car in Norway. 65% of us either own a cabiin, or have access to a cabin . Access to a cabin can be your workplace owning cabins available to the workers for almost no money. When you go to the cabin you take a lot of shit with you, food & equipment, so cargo space matters. Also like the Swede said in the video there is a lot of driving kids back and forth to sporting events. Another thing, choosing a car for it's looks is'nt as big a thing here, as it is in the US

[@leeloo21231234]

I I live in Europe but I got a US wagon, an outback. I got it new about 6 months ago, for the bigger ground clearance and the very good AWD system, , I like to go on forest roads. It is not my first wagon, I also owned many years ago a Saab 9-3 wagon, one of the best cars. I ever had, that I still regret selling it.

[@TheDude50447]

Station Wagons can be everything with cargo room. They can even be mild offroaders and sports cars. But you can also have a long distance comfortable cruiser with a very efficient diesel capable of 60 mpg on the highway It can be the perfect car for many people. 3 kids and luggage for a vacation. No Problem.

[@legendjbl7770]

Wagons have a lot of space and are pratical, many have a good price, good fule milage, safer for the driver and everyone else.

[@AnalogDude_]

The Audi RS6 Avant is the king of "family" cars, 4 x 4 and powered by a "Lamborghini" borrowed V10. I wonder what Americans would think about this car if they would see one, not knowing it has a V10 under the hood.

[@tomyeplcharger]

My Golf 7R Wagon is the Swiss Army knife to rule them all…giant trunk, performance, handling, reliability…200000km and still brand new without any problems at all 🎉

[@Tiglicka666]

in slovenia the main wagon is VW Passat... you see everyday at least 5 passats on road. Even if you only cross the road. lol.

[@ianwilson4262]

The fact that sales of estate cars are falling in Europe, down 20% in 2021, and the % of cars sales that are estate cars is only 8.3% shows that it is sadly not a sector that will exist fairly soon

[@thistimeimhere]

I think it's the roads. As a European I couldn't understand why anyone would choose an suv over a stationwagen/estate car. But I then visited America and spent a good bit of time on your roads when I then realised why suv and automatic gearboxes are popular. They make sence in America. In Europe an estate makes way more sence.

[@zeroforcemember]

I love my golf sportswagen, drives like a sporty car but you can jam a bunch of crap in the back. I would love to have a skoda here in the states.

[@craigcourtney4209]

Just about every suv has a wagon body style , a square back with a lift up tailgate that the back window is an integral part , SUV’s are pumped up car body’s wider and easy to get in and out of

[@mho...]

TBH, if i where american & would hear station wagon i would only think about these wood paneled cruisers for familys here in germany they are called "Kombi's" ...combinations between a normal car & a small transporter. great things to have for all kinds of trips!

[@E.D.998]

I dont understand why the subaru outback is not the most sold car in usa. 4x4, can tow a lot, can cross snow and mud as well as a pickup, parks in half the space, uses half of the fuel, is more comfortable, suspensions arent killing your back, you can get in it with a broken leg as there's no useless climbing to get in the door.

[@mad-FrenchS203]

Wagons are nice to drive, practical and aren't bad in fuel economy. First wagon was a Peugeot 206 SW, had a few different things after that and I went back to a wagon I brought from a very good friend. It's Turbo diesel, has a lot of kms and up until now still requires some care... But I'll keep my old mule running. 170 bhp, pulls 2 tons without any trouble and unlaoded does 5l/100kms. Despite being old and visually neglected (wich I don't care about) I like it very much.

[@Bassalicious]

in the US "small SUV" seems to just mean "SUV" lol. I drive a Volvo 245. Fits everything I need, double bass and what-have-you, feels awesome to drive, it let's me have fun with the manual box, RWD and no assists, it doesn't break the bank, I can fix it myself and it's gorgeous to look at too imo. I won't let it go willingly any time soon that's for sure. A turbo and an LSD would be nice though.

[@moonliteX]

Station wagons or "farmers" as we call them have ALWAYS been cool af to me. Ever since i saw a red 3-series going about 200 through the norwegian mountains 30+ years ago

[@moonliteX]

Americans have just never appreciated handling. Ever.

[@charlesmcwilliam8727]

I had estate (stationwagon) for years and they were no downsides, however in the UK car manufacturers seem to be doing crossovers now in order to pamper for the ridiculous number of people who don't know cars and buy with they're eyes rather than common sense when there in a dealership

[@michaeldannise7700]

Volvo is not Swedish anymore it is Chinese, it is owned by Geely

[@craigcourtney4209]

That Cadillac wagon built like the commodore wagon a muscle car with storage carrying capacity

[@marcschulz6689]

To me it's kind of simple why in Europe wagons are more successful. First of all we like to go fast. And driving fast in a SUV is usually no fun at all. 2nd is that our roads and cities are small compared to the US.

[@ww5511]

Love my 2014 AMG E63 WAGON!!! I beat Camaros, mustangs, Porsches and base vettes daily. 600+ HP, 0-60 in 3.2 and 1.1Gs in the corners... all that with a full Costco run!!!

[@peaceup5519]

I live in Louisville, KY. Trucks and SUVs dominate the automotive landscape over here. I drive a juiced up 300ish hp 2010 MINI Cooper Clubman S. It's taken 3 years, lots of blood, sweat, tears, and money to get my R55 where I want it. With a 4.2 0-60 and "on rails" handling, it is an extremely unique ride that I am very proud of. The 4 years I've owned the car I have yet to see another modded Clubman in Louisville and only 3 modded MINIs. Here's the kicker... On paper... On my insurance, title, and registration... My car is listed as a Station Wagon! This little fact blew my mind the first time I saw this. My car is rare 2 fold... It's a MINI, and it's a Station Wagon. I personally do not like SUVs and would never own one. They are too bulky, and the handling is not what I prefer. This is just my preference, and I don't judge. If you're an SUV lover, that's awesome. Not all SUVs are bricks, and I do have a few of them that I do like. This is my first video, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you.

[@Newtonsquared]

Even in The Netherlands the trend is more towards SUV-type instead of real station wagons. For example I drive a Peugot 508 SW GT hybrid which just drives amazing well, really glued to the asphalt, and the guys at the dealer will say this is by far their best car performance wise, but the model is hardly selling at all. Everyone goes for this 4008 or 5008 type SUV's.

[@SoLoWeJGR]

Well Audi have it own A6 allroad Skoda as well with the A5 platform released their “outback” variant.

[@KonohazFinest]

Since I've seen the newer model mazda 6 wagons with AWD i want it so bad but of course they dont sell it here in the states. I love wagons over any other cars.

[@richvandervecken3954]

European roads require a lower center of gravity, either to achieve the higher speed without crazy high gas consumption or to handle the narrow winding roads at a higher speed. I base that on my limited 13 months of driving in Germany while I was stationed there.

[@wieseldesign]

Here in Germany, it also seems that station wagons are becoming less and less popular. Maybe it's because of the region I live in (northern Germany), but there seem to be more and more SUVs than station wagons. Which I don't understand, as SUVs don't usually offer more space, they just look more bulky. The tailgate alone on SUVs often gives away the fact that you can't get more in there, as it's often not as wide as an station wagonsr or even a "real" van. station wagons, however, are often space monsters in comparison. You can fit everything in there. station wagons are somehow also "sensible" cars, doesn't seem to be fashionable at the moment...

[@TorbenS]

The car market in Denmark (where I'm from), is changing these years. Many new cars are electrical. In 2023 in fact 42.6% of all new cars sold were electrical! Personally, in my home we have two diesel cars, a Ford Fiesta hatchback and a VW Touran SUV. The next will likely be an electrical too (1 gallon /3.78 liters of gas is about USD 8.20 which is more than twice of your gas price, as far as I understand!) Here some stats about brands sold here in 2023 (and in 2022) 1. Tesla 12.9% (2,0%) 2. Volkswagen 9.7 % (11.6%) 3. Audi 7.6 % (5.7%) 4. Toyota 7.0% (8.7%) 5. Mercedes-Benz 6.3% (8.1%) 6. Skoda 5.4% (5.9%) 7. Peugeot 5.1% (5.7%) 8. BMW 5.0% (5.7%) 9. Hyundai 4.7% (5.9%) 10. Ford 4.4% (5.3%) So, as you might have guessed, there are Tesla's everywhere here... Thanks for your enjoyable videos 🙂

[@pedroleal7118]

Station wagons are typically family cars , if you have several kids and like to travel, it's perfect. Crossovers (and off-roads, in the cities, not practical+gas price and milleage) are a way for constructors to sell the 'American Dream' (big S.U.V.) to European drivers, too.

[@Macvombat]

According to Volvo's american website the Volvo V90, their top end model, starts at 60k usd. Seems reasonable compared to the trucks people buy.

[@LoneRanger100]

Family of six. Holidayed across countries in it with huge tent etc. never crowded. Estate cars ftw!

[@stevieinselby]

From a UK perspective, I have never understood the appeal of SUVs. A couple of times when I've had to drive one, I've found them horrible - all the poise and handling of a wet sponge, sluggish and thirsty compared to their car equivalents, and with really poor boot capacity and interior space. Personally, I don't need the space of a station wagon/estate, a mid-size hatchback is fine for me, but if I needed more space then that's definitely the way I would go. As to why Subaru have cornered the market in the USA, that may be down to the brand itself. They've always appealed to, and been marketed at, people who think a little bit differently, people who don't just follow the herd. So it makes perfect sense that - in a country where every man and his dog gets an SUV or a truck - people who want to make the unusual choice of buying a wagon will be drawn to a manufacturer who is a bit eclectic and different. You're not going to get people swimming against the tide with their choice of car who then say "I'm going to buy a Ford".

[@prestiluso]

Audi A6 Allroad, Mercedes-AMG E63 S wagon, V90 Cross Country, Audi RS6 Avant, Audi A4 Allroad, BMW M5 Touring.

[@thebronco9871]

So im from europ and just to mention the Part where you said a Pick up could probably haul more just check out the video of a audi rs6 Wagon pulling a 40t semi on a iced road