J.S.Bach:Brandenburg Concerto No.5 - Furtwangler & VPO (1950)

J.S.Bach:
Brandenburg Concerto No.5 in D major, BWV1050
Wilhelm Furtwangler(piano & cond)
Wiener Philharmoniker
31 VIII 1950, Salzburg
J.S.バッハ：
ブランデンブルク協奏曲第5番ニ長調BWV1050
ヴィルヘルム・フルトヴェングラー(ピアノ & 指揮)
ウィーン・フィルハーモニー管弦楽団

[@albrechtkhuen3039]

Furtwängler bringt die Seele der Kadenz zum Vorschein. Einfach meisterhaft.

[@mehranmazloom2354]

Sometimes soul needs to rest, stop by the road and watch the whole crowd, regardless of anything correct or incorrect. In other words, needs pure joy. this is one of the moment

[@alirezagholamian469]

Surface

[@samgoodyear9793]

Bach done with real emotion, meaning, beauty, and musicality. It's fantastic, eye opening stuff.

[@camaysar222]

For those who think this is too slow, imagine you are a visitor in Furtwängler's world. Open yourself to a foreign culture.

[@claranimmer7349]

I love this tempo. Some conductors rush through Bach as if it were a time race. There are limits to the speed of certain instruments they used. Harpsicord can be very fast, but the violonist had to tighten the bow with his fingers while playing.

[@pablojlascano8322]

@@claranimmer7349 You say a foreign culture,... I would say a decayed culture, Europe is on a steep decline if you compare what it was capable of in the XVII - XVIII centuries to XX or XXI. Bach's music deserves to be played sooooo much better than this. Let me focus on one aspect only: the rhythm. A culture of dancers as was that of Bach, in which people felt the rhythm very deeply, had been destroyed. And this sort of rhythmic blandness is only possible for people that don't feel rhythm with their bodies, that have a disjointed body - soul relationship.

[@claranimmer7349]

@@pablojlascano8322 I said nothing about a foreign culture. Nobody witnessed how this music was played.

[@wannabecat369]

@@pablojlascano8322 Perhaps true, but Furtwangler indeed feels this rhythm very well! Even better than a lot of historically informed performers. If you object to the dynamic, tempo, articulation or instrumentation; I will accept all of those as fair points of argument, but to say that this performance lacks a sense of rhythm is problematic.

[@pablojlascano8322]

@@wannabecat369 I just had a conversation with a Caribbean born percussionist who started studying at one of Europe's top conservatories, he couldn't believe the total lack of basic rhythmic skills of both the fellow students, and the professors... and that is at the "percussion" department, imagine strings etc... They cannot play convincingly even a passage with some slight syncopation. Reminds me of a story they use to tell, about people living on a plane field not believing someone who told them the world was in 3d. This performance lives in 2d musical world where the rhythmic dimension doesn't exist...

[@albertocantoni5064]

Nel 1950 è stato un concerto emozionante, oggi è emozionante solo il ricordo e l’ammirazione per tale coraggio.

[@francescaemc2]

grazie di nuovo

[@goodmanmusica]

Cadenza is incredible, Great Furtwangler!

[@francescaemc2]

Wow, some of these comments! A bit of respect for Maestro Furtwangler. He conducted this and played the piano. Perhaps some of you could do it faster.

[@MichaelJohnMUSlC]

piano cadenza is mind blowing

[@johnervin8033]

Yep. The anti-"period" or v. the new school, in thrall for 40 years, which plays it fast and crazy as bugs. George Malcolm does a splendide job on Klemperer's Angel LP with Philharmonia. A little faster. but peerless. It mystifies one, that more don't hear it at a more andante or moderato like this, which lets the Beauty breathe. SWEET!

[@graceandyuki]

The most important music for my life.

[@vincenzocaggiano3027]

Semplicemente stupendo.

[@francescaemc2]

grazie di cuore

[@pupulique]

Absolute genius

[@magaloff1]

So refreshing!

[@manuelcerquera2329]

Este hombre fue un gran músico y un místico,me refiero a furtwangler.

[@francescaemc2]

grazie

[@user-ys2tt1jk8k]

Solo 9:10

[@yolainesene8691]

Thank you

[@RamiroBrandan]

9:10 cadenza

[@pandamanchi]

It sounds like Romantic music to me.

[@bernabefernandeztouceda7315]

That's the point

[@user-tu1qw7nh1j]

ピアノが通奏低音やるブランデンブルグのレコードならミュンシュボストン響しか持ってなくてそれ以外に重々しいバロック演奏を求めていた私にとどめを刺したこの演奏www古楽に疲れた方向け？

[@Mui-ve8uj]

グールドの演奏はお嫌いですか？ 他にピアノで弾いている演奏家はペライアさんがいますね、軽い演奏で重厚ではないですが…

[@jyhshyonglin9793]

Very very special.

The tempo is too slow, the orchestra is too big, the instruments are not authentic for the period... Everything is wrong, yet it sounds perfect. Beautiful beyond words. That's the magic of Wilhelm Furtwängler.

[@francescaemc2]

give Bach a bit of credit. Which instruments would you eliminate from the Wiener? ;)

[@JasonJason210]

I wonder what Bach himself would have made of it?

[@andrewvincenti2664]

Krešimir and much better than these horrible modern lifeless PC recordings- give him Furtwangler any day.

[@AndrewEdwardsFlute]

@@JasonJason210 In the 18th century there was no concept of recreating the music of the past, they just wrote for then, so he wouldn't care less.....

[@fyfyi6053]

That's the magic of Wilhelm Furtwängler? Nope genius, that's the magic of actual "conducting". The music of the baroque era back then was performed on large orchestras and symphonic arrangements. Not only by Furtwangler. Stokowski, Ormandy, O'Connell, etc. If you think that this is "wrong" because it's not "authentic" than you know nothing about the authentic conductor. We might have authentic interpretations today but we've lost the authentic conductor. And you're telling me you're okay with this. Even worse, you used the word "wrong" to describe what happened here. How do you think Mendelssohn, (maybe the first conductor ever) performed Bach's St Matthew Passion back in 1829 ?

[@stephanoszwi9897]

I`ve never heard this piece in that way. So gloomy, so sad. An inner world, that great Furtwägler unfolds towards us. Even sadness about the war, the situation of his beloved fatherland? Who knows? There are comments of him, hints, in the very last years, in writings and speeches, that he had the feeling that Germany and Europe are going to be destroyed, and the bond with the tradition, with art as a whole, is being torn on purpose.

[@lordspongebobofhousesquare1616]

Nowadays Bach performance without period instruments and urtext tempos are often looked down on. This recording was from a different time

[@pablojlascano8322]

Well, there are no "urtext" tempi, but even a 5 year old will notice the tempo of the first movement isn't right... how can you play it so slow, that the four sixteenth note groups begin to sound like a whole bar...

[@hostlangr]

@@pablojlascano8322, great Furtwängler. Absolutely legitimate. See also Kirsten Flagstad "im Abendrot". TBkPPCsjqZI

[@agustinusbravy5401]

​@@pablojlascano8322 I think it's just nice to hear people play things differently. No need to adhere to the score all the time

[@pablojlascano8322]

@@agustinusbravy5401 I couldn't agree any more with the "adhere to the score" part, but it is a whole different matter here. First of all, there are no "urtext" bpm markings (apparently someone did record exact tempi for Lully opera pieces but the information got lost anyways). It is not that I am defending a purist point of view, it is just that playing this even slower than a practice tempo doesn't make any sense. Do whatever you want with the music, but it has to work, a tempo that disrupts the musical discourse doesn't do justice to this great piece.

[@feelgoog22]

the code nobody plays better, even Gelnn Gould not, pure magic.

[@francescaemc2]

wait. not so fast. Glenn Gould in Detroit is unique.

[@GerardvanR]

How much the speed of this piece has accellerated during the past 60 years!! Nowadays musicians play it almost twice as fast!! Which is the right tempo?

[@geiryvindeskeland7208]

Gerard van Reenen, I am sorry for my inadequate English. Maybe some of the "authentic performances" are too fast in our days? It's hard to know for sure. But we understand that Furtwangler's performance is too slow, and he preoove it by the way he play the cadenza. He had not the technical skills he needed to play it correctly, from 12:01 the pace is half the tempo it should be. The time signature is cutting C, not any slow signature. Therefore we know that the Furtwangler's tempo is too slow.

[@andrewvincenti2664]

geir øyvind eskeland it sounds right to me. I will take it over any of these effete modern PC recordings which sound lifeless.

[@geiryvindeskeland7208]

Andrew Vincenti, quote:"..it sounds right to me." You are welcome to prefer Fürtwangler's performance over others, please enjoy! In my opinion it is important to make attempts to bring this old music closer to the original baroque style. Like we restore old historical buildings, old paintings and other objects from the past. "It sounds right to me." That's fine! But if you get curious for more knowlegde, I will write some more. :-)

[@simonalbrecht9435]

There is no ‘right tempo’. Every rendition of any music is always an interpretation, and it will reflect aspects of the musicians and their time as well as shine a particular light on the music. Furtwängler represents a tradition which always seeks to give a deep emotional and physical foundation to every detail in the music. He chose a tempo which allowed him to firstly hallow the grandeur of Bach and secondly to give room to all the minute psychological/emotional developments. Listen to the way Furtwängler prepares the frightful moment at 5:39-it’s impossible to give this the proper attention if one sticks to a fast alla breve tempo. There are innumerable different ways of dealing with timing in music like this, as one may see for example from the extraordinary and revelatory approach that Robert Hill has developed (check out his KZbin channel, it’s amazing). We will never run out of possibilities…

[@frederykbote351]

@@geiryvindeskeland7208 Everybody has the right to have an own opinion. But that Furtwängler had not the technical skills to play it 'correctly' is an insult and just ridiculous. To play it this slow and keep it 'swinging' is at least as difficult, as to play it in the show-off-speed, which is often choosen in these days. Playing the cadenza in high-speed destroys it, at does not let it 'shine'.

[@bonapona2251]

I don't think you can necessarily assert that the tempo is too slow. Surely this is not historically correct, but does music always have to be played historically correct? I don't think so. “The birth of the reader must be at the cost of the death of the Author.”

[@geiryvindeskeland7208]

Bona Pona, I am sorry for my inadequate English. "NEVER too slow." If you are talking about your own taste, it is ok. But if you are talking about this performance in a historical context, you are not right.

[@bonapona2251]

@@geiryvindeskeland7208 My point is that he grasped the essence of the music of J.S.Bach.

[@sionedwards1854]

I'm sorry but there is no actual historical basis for playing this faster. We cannot know the composers intentions. Faster recordings of this piece come as a result of a modernist aesthetic and historical accuracy has very little if anything to do with it. I actually prefer these faster recordings on period instruments. But to claim that these performances are more accurate to Bach's intentions was is unfounded.

[@geiryvindeskeland7208]

Sion Edwards, interesting comment. What about "tempo ordinario"? You make the statement that tempo ordinario is not any guide to get closer to "right" tempi? About the first movement in this performance: I am tempted to believe that if there wasn't any harpsichord part, the pace would be faster. Furtwangler prove that he struggling in the cadenza. At 12.02, the demisemiquavers is like semiquavers. But suddently, at 12.42, he play the rest of the cadenza closer to the pace from the beginning of the cadenza.

[@bonapona2251]

@@geiryvindeskeland7208 @Sion Edwards I'm sorry for my poor English. My thoughts are similar to those of Roland Barthes. So it's better to read his text than my poor English. e.g. "The Death of the Author"

[@polonaise]

9:10

[@renaudpontier]

Cet enregistrement a une valeur historique, mis l'interprétation elle même est très décevante; trop lente, un peu lourde, manquant terriblement de vivacité. Heureusement Furtwängler s'est largement rattrapé dans les symphonies de LVB.

[@pablojlascano8322]

Thank you youtube for implementing x 1.5 playback speed...

[@pablojlascano8322]

still horrible, but at least it doesn't sound like a psycho-acoustics experiment on how much you can isolate musical events until a human brain cannot follow a melodic line any longer...

[@matteogiorgetti858]

Curati

[@pablojlascano8322]

@@matteogiorgetti858 Ehi, non hai più voluto seguire un dittatore senza nemmeno pensarci, tu che hai inventato tante orribili ideologie? Ah, no, continuano allo stesso modo, ripetendo come pappagalli senza senso critico quello che gli viene servito da bambini... ah ah. Che bello essere nato nel nuovo mondo, dove essere un idiota senza personalità è disapprovato.

[@MrRuplenas]

Although the early music crowd has to a large extent sucked the joy and life out of pre-Romantic music, this recording is Exhibit A in the case for why they came about in the first place. What an abomination!!!!!

[@VivaRenata]

Get yourself a hearing aid, and while you're at it, get yourself a brain as well.

[@pablojlascano8322]

A very fine comment, that is the sad truth. It is horrible the way they played before the "early music" revolution, but they rebelled only to become a new dogma on how to play that music (a bit like the pigs in Orwell's farm), that is resistant to further examination, with certain players revered as gods... So all in all, we have to be grateful that we can now listen to this music at least with somewhat the right colors, still there is a lot that remains to be done, and with the bunch of thick-skulls that are now the establishment of "early music", any change will be much resisted.

[@berndwang2756]

This is way too heavy, the cadenza way too slow. I have tried my best to appreciate this rendition but every time it fails. With such a tempo the character of the cadenza is completely distorted. As for the style he played in a too manneristic way, and the bass notes near the cadenza's end sound like hiccups of an old man -- I give it to the bad recording for that, to be fair. I am not a purist, I appreciate many Bach interpretations of old masters' -- Furtwaengler's 1930 recording of the Brandenburg 3 is magical, he reinvented the structure and exploited the rhythmic diversity of the first movement like no one else has done. But this recording lacks that creativity. It lacks the flair that you can feel in Cortot's EMI recording.

[@pablojlascano8322]

And the moral of the story is: playing music way too slow is bad for your hair.

[@claranimmer7349]

It might also be very good for your hair. He would have lost all of it without this music. Hair is not that important. This is just to cheer you up in case you loose your hair later in life. 🥨 You might wonder now why I am sending you a brezel. Its good luck.

[@derwanderer1842]

Da ist wirklich grausig. Als würde mir einer ein Gedicht nicht vortragen, sondern buchstabieren. »E - de - el - Leerzeichen - es - e - i - Leerzeichen - de - e - er - Leerzeichen - em - e - en - es - zeh...« und so weiter. Im besten Falle kann sowas als Dada-Veranstaltung durchgehen. Übrigens ist das keine Frage der Epoche. Es ist keineswegs so, dass zu jener Zeit alle diese Musik so monströs genommen haben. (Aber es wurde ja auch nicht überall so monströs gebaut wie in jenen tausend Jahren, zu denen Furtwängler die passende Musik geliefert hat.)

[@laidonerlain]

Es ist ja vollkommen legitim diese Ansicht zu vertreten und wahrscheinlich historisch durchaus korrekt. Furtwänglers gesamtes Musizieren hier aber implizit als nationalsozialistisch geprägt und größenwahnsinnig abzutun und generell auf derart primitive Kategorisierungen zurückzugreifen, ist schlichtweg ärmlich, geschmacklos, klitternd und grundsätzlich vollkommen verfehlt. Dass diesem großen Künstler selbst 70 Jahre nach seinem Ableben weiterhin ungerechtfertigterweise das Nazi-Stigma aufgeprägt werden soll, ist wirklich kaum zu fassen.

[@user-yo5ju4pd3l]

全然ダメじゃんｗ　お話お話にもならないｗ

[@pablojlascano8322]

How can you play that beautiful music so damn slow that you completely ruin it... I thought Bach's music was bulletproof, but this guy absolutely murdered it...

[@TheStockwell]

Because seventy years ago Bach was performed differently by virtually everyone. It was a different century, you know. 🐧

[@VivaRenata]

No, he brings it back to life. Bach with a human soul, not generated by a computer on out-of-tune "authentic" instruments.

[@pablojlascano8322]

@@VivaRenata That people can also murder Bach on period instruments, you don't need to tell me. But this tempo is just ridiculous. BTW, I have listened to Bach played badly by "specialists" and the bunch who hates them, and in general specialists do a far better job.

[@pablojlascano8322]

@@VivaRenata I have the feeling people playing with gut strings have better pitch accuracy than the "modern" violinist with shrill metal strings using a vibrato that oscillates a whole-tone. But I don't really care about that, what I hate about how classical music (meaning Western art music) is played nowadays is the horrible, horrible rhythmic accuracy, or rather lack thereof. Classical musicians have in general a great sense of pitch, melody, etc., but they are in kindergarten in terms of rhythmic accuracy, if you compare to musical cultures in which rhythm is put to the fore.

[@pablojlascano8322]

@@VivaRenata And last, you might despise the idea of using "authentic" instruments as you put it, and I am far from being dogmatic about the so called "authentic" things, because I know then only too well to defend them. But one thing is undeniable, the right instruments create the right harmonics, for which the music was composed, and you can ONLY understand it fully if you do so. I have played Bach on piano and harpsichord, and I can tell you, Bach sounds so dull on the piano, all the harmonics are missing, and dissonances sound far less poignant. The amazing thing about Bach's music is that it is still great even badly played on bad instruments, so if you want the watered-down version of his music, where dissonances don't sound even half as powerful, feel free to keep on listening to that... I remember first time I played the pieces I learned on the piano on the harpsichord I felt as if changing from and old BW tv to full color.

[@user-fu7zf4ck9z]

This is honestly awful

[@geiryvindeskeland7208]

Zane, give the listeners an explanation, tell us why this is awful, thank you.

[@user-fu7zf4ck9z]

geir øyvind eskeland it's played waaay too slowly

[@guillaume.pirard]

@@user-fu7zf4ck9z If you have the time and desire, read the essay "the pastness of the present and the presence of the past" by Richard Taruskin, it brings up this interpretation in a context that might make your listening of this interpretation go from repulsed to curious. It did so with me. Cheers.

[@user-fu7zf4ck9z]

Guillaume Pirard thank you, i hope you're right

[@pablojlascano8322]

You passed the test, congratulations

[@francescaemc2]

grazie

[@francescaemc2]

grazie