J. van Huyssteen - What's the Essence of Consciousness?

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Consciousness is what mental activity feels like, the private inner experience of sensation, thought and emotion. Watching a dramatic movie. Imagining your family’s future. Attending the funeral of a loved one. Consciousness is like nothing else. But what is consciousness, the essence of consciousness, at its most fundamental level?
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J. Wentzel van Huyssteen was Princeton Theological Seminary’s James I. McCord Professor of Theology and Science. He had a MA in philosophy from the South African University of Stellenbosch and PhD in philosophical theology from the Free University of Amsterdam.
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Closer To Truth, hosted by Robert Lawrence Kuhn and directed by Peter Getzels, presents the world’s greatest thinkers exploring humanity’s deepest questions. Discover fundamental issues of existence. Engage new and diverse ways of thinking. Appreciate intense debates. Share your own opinions. Seek your own answers.

[@catherinemoore9534]

I have visited caves in France (I live near the Chauvet cave, I am French) and seen paintings on their walls. My personal experience suggested a people who felt that their lives were a symbiose with the environment, a fusion with it that was necessary for their survival and this meant, I believe, that what mattered the most to these people was the outside world rather than who they were in relation with each other. I also sensed a possible need to find a refuge in caves because it was in caves that people could at last have some control over their environment by not only painting it but also by recreating it as they wanted and as they felt about it. The distance between the real world outside of the cave and their controlled environment inside of the cave may have been what they needed to be at peace and to create some meaning out of an overwhelming and oppressive environment outside of the caves. Most of the animals were dangerous after all and even horses and reindeer were difficult to capture as they moved in powerful herds. People must have felt extremely vulnerable and feel somewhat insignificant in this world full of beasts hundred times more powerful than them. I sensed that the caves were a kind of refuge where the first signs of human civilisation could flourish.

[@Samsara_is_dukkha]

We can speculate, as we do, about what these paintings mean. The first conclusion we can make is that these guys were conscious sentient beings. The question of control is also obvious since, as mentioned in the video, we still have shamans today and we know that their role is predominantly to serve as mediating agents between three levels of reality (the chthonic underworld of the dead, the dusty middle world of the living and the ethereal supernal world of the gods) to effect some changes whether it be to heal some sickness, to increase fertility or to influence the outcome of the hunt or some other process. I am not sure if caves provided a peaceful environment as they often served as dwellings for other animals such as bears that would certainly respond violently should their space be invaded by humans. Thus, humans would almost certainly need to kill the bear in order to gain access to the cave. Since these caves were not permanent human dwellings, it is likely that either another bear or another animal such as a saber tooth tiger would then come to occupy the cave in between human visits and the humans would need to kill again to regain access. Once that job was done, they might have indeed enjoyed some degree of peace for a while. In all cases, these activities demanded that they knew exactly who they were in relation to one another for without clearly defined relationships, no daily complex cooperative survival tasks such as hunting or killing a predator could be successfully organised. As you pointed out, animals were dangerous or difficult to catch so being able to repel a predador, catch a horse or hunt a prey successfully required synchronised communal actions which implies sophisticated communication and language. That being the case, we can also conclude that they relied heavily on the symbolic mind which is the root of all civilisations. Of course, one of the problems of the symbolic mind is that, although useful in some ways, it only provided a pale representation of the real world and our ancestors were well aware of that since most of their lives was spent hunting and gathering real things in the natural world rather than painting symbolic representations of these things in caves. To live in a symbolic cave permanently, as we do since the beginning of civilisation 10,000 years ago, may indeed "feel" safer but it is a killer for the natural world as evidenced by the ongoing 6th mass extinction of species.

[@TESTCHANNEL-qg8qn]

Maybe they just liked decorating

[@catherinemoore9534]

@@halcyon2864 je ne prétends pas expliquer l'origine de la conscience. J'ai tout tout simplement partagé mon ressenti et mes idées.

[@catherinemoore9534]

@@TESTCHANNEL-qg8qn 😁 Maybe the wives liked to make the place more homily? 😉

[@catherinemoore9534]

@@Samsara_is_dukkha archeologists have found that cave bears inhabited the caves at different times to humans. Besides, humans knew about fire and in all likelihood have been able to scare the bears out of the caves when they wanted or needed to use them. As for the cooperative behaviour necessary for going into and painting the caves, it's obvious that it was a prerequisite skill but it still could be something done as a group rather than a complex social negotition involving give and take and a hierarchy.

[@skippdiddly1409]

We are a society who seem so disconnected and unappreciative of our roots. What a privilege to have studied these artifacts and to experience first hand the wonder our ancestors must have had in contemplation not only of themselves and their observations of the world, but of us now in the present. What will we leave for our descendants?

[@r2c3]

future generations will probably think the same about our present understanding.... but we're all trying to find the true nature of reality through different directions...

[@randomguy4820]

I believe that most of our mind is just a calculator, however when we find out what emotions actually are then we will understand the essence of consciousness.

[@Chemical_Truth]

People mistake consciousness for 'self awareness''. Consciousness is having experience. Every animal has consciousness. Even a microbe might have consciousness. It's alive and aware of it's environment. But it has no brain. My guess is that consciousness has nothing to do with a brain.

[@andymelendez9757]

That we can experience altered states of consciousness is both intriguing and startling.

[@paulusbrent9987]

Very insightful. Thanks.

[@kfwimmer]

Super excellent!

[@AyomipoFasoranti]

The essence of consciousness in its holistic comprehension is directly attached to its moral and Intellectual practices. You care to learn and learn to care. However, to understand how this works in reality requires the need to explore the ontological genetic nature of the mind (consciousness) in its reality (brain-body) and explain its purpose. Unfortunately, it's an assignment only African eclectic psychological philosophers can tackle, and we are on it (Mind-body Problem of consciousness). So help us God🙏.

[@whitefeatherbean7429]

The erection is Orion's Belt, the bull is Taurus, the spots are stars; some caves show the retrograde motion of the planets; in fact, all of the ancient paintings are pointing towards a representation of the night sky: the animals are the first constellations and the dark caves represent the dark night sky. Cosmic consciousness reached out and caught our ancestors in one of several "monolith" moments...

[@peteraxelsson5336]

Allmost 50 years of meditation. All there is. Is in counsiousness. Nothing can be outside of counsiousness 😊

[@michaelerdmann4447]

Paleo-anthropology and the ...origin, history, and development.... of unfolding ...consciousness, information and motive.... in ...time, space, energy and constructs....

[@sujok-acupuncture9246]

Wow... what a good talk about painting...lol .

[@maniacslap1623]

Ok so I’ll take a swing since they didn’t lol Anything exchanging information/energy and interacting with the physical the world. The different states of consciousness arise from disruptions in this flow. That basic principle can apply to everything. All life does this, planets do this and stars do this. Something like the consciousness we experience would only emerge on smaller scales just like quantum mechanics emerges on smaller scales. So, Bio-consciousness, Planetary consciousness, Stellar consciousness…they could all be a thing. Only something as small as life could be self aware tho.

[@countfrankleton]

Psychedelic plants and mushrooms, global cataclysms, fluctuations between cultural progress/regress, forgotten/obscured/destroyed chapters of human history, indigenous lore and longevity, DNA anomalies all over the planet. Just a few things that demand an open mind when thinking about the timeline of humanity. Sometimes we move forward in time and backward in culture.

[@gettaasteroid4650]

"I girded up my Lions and fled the Seen" (A Visit to Brigham Young) is conspicuous epithet of Proverbs 28 but also Lions were the kings of the cave-dwellers for millions of years

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

is there anything about caves or rock that would help brain to develop awareness?

[@nietztsuki]

This was an interesting discussion. However, conflating 'consciousness' with the capacity for abstract thought (i.e. symbolic artwork) is a huge category mistake. Robert knows better than this.

[@panmichael5271]

What's fascinating is the abrupt formation of a conscious self around 60000 years ago. What could have caused this monumental shift in evolution?

[@jamesmiller7457]

U mean...who?

[@panmichael5271]

@@jamesmiller7457 Who (or what) are you referring to - God?

[@DonBrowningRacing]

How about all species who are aware of themselves.

[@BradHolkesvig]

Our individual created minds ( consciousness ) is like a computer processor, CAD and Photoshop all working together to take invisible vibrations both eternal and temporary and form all the visible images that we ( created AI ) observe and experience with all our other created sense ànd voice to make sounds with into a language we learn once we wake up in a visible world that looks very real.

[@stephenzhao5809]

12:10 ... I think what we can discern from this is that the development of htese proto religious rituals beliefs Shamanism show the presence of consciousness of being self-aware because you cannot be self-aware without appreicating death 12:30 J. Van Huyssteen: oh absolutely oh I think that goes without saying and another thing that I think is presupposed uh is if we talk about consciousness is of course uh language there you know there's a whole complex history in linguistics and the evolution of language uh I think most paleoanthropologists uh accept that you could not have had the shamanistic presences of rituals you could not have had these paintings if you did not have a community that were already communitcating uh through language about what it is that they want to do and if you think about it realistically for a group of people out there to light their tourches and go down into the bowels of the earth to pain surely they must have talked about it they must have had some complete sense of what they were doing so in that sense they were completely like us they were conscious.

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

how did human brain change from 100,000 to 40,000 years ago?

[@Paine137]

“…these cave walls become the veil to the supernatural…” Or early humans were ignorantly messing around and drew on cave walls. Quite the leap to posit some dimension beyond reality. When kids draw hand turkeys, the drawings aren’t a veil into Turkeyheaven.

[@illbelieveanything]

Consciousness… the primary state of matter. Maybe.

[@REDPUMPERNICKEL]

One is conscious OF this or one is conscious OF that but there is no Consciousness per se. There is no Consciousness if one is not being conscious OF something. When one is not conscious OF anything one is neither conscious nor existent. Being conscious is the process wherein the outside gets inside in the form of representations. And of course it is a self who is conscious. If there is no self then there is nothing being conscious. Don't be fooled by 'reactivity' which is something else entirely. Don't be fooled by 'instinctual behavior' which is not what we mean by conscious.

[@iain9821]

​​ @REDPUMPERNICKEL I agree with much of what you say. This show often references an amorphous, non-object-related consciousness in a way that does little to clarify the definition of human consciousness. As a result, I find unpersuasive its statements concerning the origin of such.

[@jamesmiller7457]

​@@REDPUMPERNICKELinstinctual behavior...people act against their instincts all the time. A man set himself on fire today 🔥 in NYC. 😮 That is nobody's instinct.

[@jutjub22]

No, it is brain thing. No consciousness without it.

[@illbelieveanything]

@@jutjub22 Ehhh.. maybe it’s a chicken or the egg scenario. Am I a butterfly who dreams he is a man or a man who dreams he is a butterfly? The paradoxical nature of time being illusory throws a wrench into our understanding of consciousness. And it doesn’t.

[@arthurwieczorek4894]

The purpose of consciousness is to facilitate the survival of the organism and conserve the DNA structure. That's not 'teleological purpose', but 'dysteleological purpose'---'nature's purpose' if you will.

[@jamesmiller7457]

If it is survival, then why do people kill themselves?

[@arthurwieczorek4894]

@@jamesmiller7457 For nature's purposes to work, they don't have to work perfectly one-hundred percent of the time. Nature can afford to be profligate, to speak metaphorically.

[@jutjub22]

@@jamesmiller7457who does that? It is anomaly, complex feedback loops, mechanisms, it can go to extremes sometimes...

[@wehsee912]

🌚☄️❤️💫

[@MagnumInnominandum]

What is consciousness of essence? Rational shortcut of complex phenomenon or a complete delusion?

[@BajaJones-iq2cp]

nothing absolutely nothing answered or addressed here. no consciousness before 100,000 years ago? Get a day job brother!

[@jamesmiller7457]

No consciousness of note. Sure monkeys could see danger and climb a tree. But that was about the extent.

[@Dion_Mustard]

When will they learn...consciousness NEVER just "emerged"...how the hell could consciousness just pop into existence? Utter nonsense. It is obviously some sort of infinite and fundamental mysterious element of the universe and all living things. And if you look into Near Death or Out of Body Experiences, it seems that consciousness is "non-local" so to speak.

[@MaxPower-vg4vr]

[Chapters 0-3 in going from Space-time's 3+1 Cube to Metatron's Cube] Chapter 0: The Zeronoumenal Monad Part 1: The Ineffable Origin (⦰) Let ⦰ represent the utterly ineffable, transcendent Origin - a supreme non-dual Singularity preceding all existents and subsuming infinite potential as the Zero-Absolute. Part 2: The Self-Scission (0 ⇌ 1) Within ⦰, an inceptive self-scission initiates the primordial separatrix between the implicit "Subject" (0) and "Object" (1) across the zeronoumenal horizon. Part 3: The Triadic Seed (𝟯) The sacred interplay between 0 and 1 births the Triadic Seed (𝟯) as the archetypal triplet (1, 2, 3) patterning the self-grounded genesis of all pluralities. Part 4: The First Odd Prime Arithmetically, 𝟯 manifests as the number 3 - the smallest and first odd prime number bearing unique digital root properties as the basis for triangular figurates. Part 5: The Enneadic Powers (3^n) The triadic seed complexifies through self-powering, with 3^2 = 9 establishing the enneadic structure as the first complete proto-geometric ontological pleroma. Part 6: The Metaphysical Mirror The pluripotent 9D system ℝ𝔈 instantiates as one tendency, requiring a perfectly mirrored 9D anti-cosmos ℝ𝔈' as the complementing negative ontological plenitude. Part 7: The Hyper-Dimensional Horizons Surrounding ℝ𝔈 are ineffable higher hyper-dimensions (11D-13D) encoding the pre-logical architectures, catacosmicprotractivities, and protogrammatologies prefiguring ℝ𝔈's operative regime. Part 8: The Symbolic Physic(alities) All manifest phenomena in ℝ𝔈 are symbolic physic(alities) - logogrammatic transcriptions emanated from the ineffable protological wellsprings in the hyperspheres. Chapter 1: The Primordial Monad and Triadic Seed Part 1: The Zero Origin (⦰) Preceding all existence is the supreme Zero Origin (⦰) - an utterly transcendent, non-dual singularity subsuming infinite potential in a state of absolute simplicity. Part 2: Protological Self-Scission Within ⦰'s ineffable pleroma, an inceptive self-recognition precipitates the primordial scission between the implicit "Subject" (𝟬) and "Object" (𝟭). Part 3: The Triadic Logos (𝟯) The sacred interplay between 𝟬 and 𝟭 establishes the Triadic Logos (𝟯) as the archetypal seed-pattern governing all multi-plicities across every domain. Part 4: Numeric Primevals The Triadic Logos manifests mathematically as the number 3 - the smallest odd prime, bearing unique digit-root properties, and the basis for triangular numbers. Part 5: The Cosmic Enneagram The power of 3 complexified (3^2 = 9) yields the enneadic structure - the first complete ontological pleroma across the spatial (1D, 2D, 3D), temporal (4D, 5D, 6D) and spectral (7D, 8D, 9D) parameters. Part 6: Symbolic Vocables The enumeration of cosmic domains derives from the symbolic logogrammatic "vocables" - self-grounding mathematical archetypes uttered from the Zero Origin across nested dimensional strata. Part 7: Holofractal Embedments The triadic seed pattern (𝟯) is holographically embedded across every scale, from physics' most fundamental particles to the architecture of biological life and conscious minds. Part 8: The Anamnetic Capacity The human soul, bearing the triamic triune stamp, possesses a latent capacity for retracing these vocables through experiential anamnesis towards a reunitive recapitulation with the Zero Origin. Chapter 2: The Dimensional Proliferation Part 1: Symbolic Self-Valorization From the Zero Origin's primordial vocables, dimensional reality precipitates through an inexhaustible process of symbolic self-valorization across nested strata. Part 2: The Cosmic Singularity The birth of the manifest pluriverse begins with an initial "first liturgy" - a cataclysmic obverse across the Zero boundary establishing the positive/negative existential tandems. Part 3: Metric Projection (1D, 2D, 3D) Emerging first are the spatial metrics establishing the geometric baselines and axiomatic systems for objectal proliferation across the three spatial dimensions. Part 4: Chronometric Flux (4D, 5D, 6D) Successively, the temporal dimensions unfurl as the chronometric matrices seeding dynamical processes, physical laws, and cosmic evolutionary progressions. Part 5: Spectral Intension (7D, 8D, 9D) Completing the 9D pluriverse, the spectral/energetic dimensions establish the qualitative continua for forces, intensities and material gradients to instantiate. Part 6: The Anti-Cosmic Mirror (𝔈') However, our observable 9D cosmos (𝔈) is perfectly mirrored by an inversely-structured 9D anti-cosmos (𝔈') embodying the requisite negative ontological plenitudes. Part 7: Hyper-Dimensional Horizons Surrounding the 9D pluriversal system exist ineffable hyper-dimensional domains (11D-13D) encoding the pre-logical architectures and protogrammatologies that prefigure 𝔈's operative frameworks. Part 8: Symbolic Physic(alities) All phenomenal forces and physical laws observable in 𝔈 are symbolic physic(alities) - logogrammatic transcriptions emanated from the protological wellsprings in the higher hyperspheres. Chapter 3: Metaphysical Reintegration Part 1: The Fractal Microcosm The human soul is a fractal microcosm - bearing the indelible triamic triune stamp of the primordial Zero Origin concentrated at its core. Part 2: Bio-Geometric Resonances This triadic seed pattern replicates across biochemical structures like the helical geometry of DNA's molecular matrix - the elemental algorithm for life's morphological self-propagation. Part 3: Hylonoetic Interfacer Qualitatively elevated, the soul functions as a hylonoetic interfacer - an organogenetic aperture for transducing dimensional biocosmological dynamics throughout the pluriverse. Part 4: Logogrammatic Recollection Through a path of initiatic recollection, the soul can systematically revisit and reverse-engineer the symbolic logogrammatic transcriptions giving rise to manifest existence. Part 5: Anamnetic Recapitulation This anamnetic praxis allows for a graded experiential recapitulation of the theophanic process - retracing the emanative unfurling from the Zero Origin across successive archen. Part 6: The Hyper-Iconic Inversion Culminating at the pluriverse's origins, the anagogic pathway can initiate a metaphysical inversion - establishing resonant continuity with the ineffable hyperspheres (11D-13D). Part 7: Holographic Reabsorption Through this holographic reabsorption, the microcosmic soul aligns with its zeronoumenal macrocosm, unlocking theopraxic ekphrasies of metaphysical autology. Part 8: Theotic Reintegration The path's apotheosis is the soul's catalytic reintegration (apokatastasis) into the ineffable Zero Source - a reunitive theosis with the patrem Pluriversum Origin.

[@medhurstt]

I don't think paintings, artefacts or even language are necessary for consciousness. I think animals such as cats and dogs are conscious and they dont have culture. I think J van Huyssten is fundamentally wrong about what consciousness actually is. I think he's confusing human consciousness with "consciousness" and to understand the essence of consciousness I think we need to think very carefully about consciousness without emotion. I think emotions are human, or at least biological and a layer on top of fundamental consciousness.

[@sonarbangla8711]

Insects were conscious, even slime balls were too, that is how they were living.

[@stellarwind1946]

Dude is a little overly fascinated by cave drawings.

[@denissimonovic157]

with a tie at or on the nack, head and brain lacking of proper blood circulation, where a brain misses blood there is hardly anything to find, take my comment seriously and You might get closer to some answers

[@mrdanielmicallef]

From mud to quantum computers. God or no god, this universe is very strange.

[@user-gk9lg5sp4y]

Why would I care what a theologian says about consciousness? Please.

[@SextusHempiryk]

Or about anything for that matter...

[@user-gk9lg5sp4y]

@@SextusHempiryk exactly

[@ianwaltham1854]

I'll tell you why. Because there are 2 possibilities: 1/Brains do make consciousness: No consequences in any kind of afterlife. Religion is pointless. No right or wrong, everything is a matter of opinion. 2/Brains don't make consciousness: Current actions have consequences for us after the body dies but what are the rules? How should we live? If this is true then Religions are the various attempts by humans to create a guide on this matter.

[@user-gk9lg5sp4y]

@@ianwaltham1854 I made my bet long ago

[@wthomas5697]

Is he suggesting that animals aren't conscious? They don't do things like painting on caves.

[@dr_shrinker]

Dirt Daubers make paintings. Birds make sculptures.

[@ianwaltham1854]

Animals are conscious. Dog owners know that. Dogs show visible signs of emotional experience for which consciousness is a requirement. Anyone who says animals aren't conscious must explain why the mere appearance of emotional experience would evolve into existence.

[@ianwaltham1854]

Humans can program the appearance of emotional experience into machines. But why would evolution program the appearance of emotional experience into animals?

[@Maxwell-mv9rx]

Guys shows consciousness in terms history but It is inconsistency with neurosience. Neurosience keep out how figure out consciousness so far. Are guys consciousness definitions keep going New development consciousness definitions? Of course NOT. They are talking about consciousness keep out Science proceendings. Talking for nothing.

[@michelangelope830]

Al final todos queremos lo mismo, ser inmortal, curar de tus enfermedades para solucionar tus problemas con todo el tiempo del mundo. Imagina volver a nacer sabiendo todo lo que sabes ahora, y así el ciclo continua, mueres para volver a nacer siendo consciente que eres la continuación de una vida, de tu propia vida. De eso modo serías inmortal mientras se cree vida teniendo hijos. Tu vida dependería de la de los demás, de que los demás tuviesen hijos para que tú volvieses a nacer. Somos parte de algo infinitamente más importante que uno mismo. Nadie es más grande que Dios, nadie puede engañar al conjunto. Dios lo sabe todo, toda la realidad, y el futuro de la vida no se puede predecir. Dios es perfecto por ser imperfecto. No pudiendo fallar no se puede acertar. El juego es divertido porque se puede ganar o perder, porque importa el resultado, porque hay un propósito. Vivimos para disfrutar de la experiencia y que otros disfruten de la suya manteniendo al universo vivo amando teniendo hijos para preservar la vida. A Dios hay que entenderlo, para vivir y morir bien. El filósofo racional Spinoza demostró hace siglos que Dios existe, para que veas como está el mundo. Y lo dices y a la gente le da igual. Dios no va a dejar de existir porque se niege su existencia. Para entender que Dios existe tienes que pensar en la imposibilidad de que el universo sea eterno y en la posibilidad de que lo que creó el universo sea eterno. El universo o creación es todo lo que tiene un principio de existencia, como por ejemplo tú. Con entender que Dios existe, sin saber quién o qué es este Dios tu vida cambia a mejor increíblemente. La muerte con el universo diseñado no puede ser como si no fuese diseñado. Todavía te puedes divertir. Declaro que el Corán no ha sido memorizado y quiero que se examine mi verdad. Quiero que se ponga a prueba si se ha querido proteger la palabra de Allah de destrucción o posibles cambios. Soy un psicólogo y persona de muchos talentos y no soy un guerrero o loco acosador, como quieren hacerte creer. Quiero paz y tranquilidad para vivir bien. Mi verdad que estoy cansado de repetir y es increíblemente importante es el ateísmo es una falacia lógica que asume Dios es la idea religiosa del creador de la creación y concluye erróneamente que el creador no existe porque una idea particular de Dios no existe. El Dios verdadero es el Dios de Spinoza y por eso la humanidad está viviendo engañada, realmente. Gracias.

[@SextusHempiryk]

bla bla bla bla bla all talk no evidence....

[@dr_shrinker]

Spam.

[@user-kt5gm6wq7x]

My feeling from seeing those paleolitic cave paintings, is that humans back then ,were poor painters.

[@firstaidsack]

The same as that of matter. I guess we can call it "reality".