Jack Kirby Lord of Light Part 4

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In this series we're going to be tackling a subject I've wanted to get to for a long while - Jack Kirby. I wanted to look at his career through the lens of some of his lesser known work outside of comics for this piece, but to do that - we need to take a look at WHY Kirby chose to exit comics and how he came to be associated with such an insane concept as the Lord of Light film production and the Science Fiction Land amusement park that would have funded its production. In this week's episode we dig deep into the roots of Kirby's problems while at DC, the birth and all too quick death of his Fourth World opus, examine a host of Kirby's other DC work and lay out his reasoning for his eventual return to Marvel Comics despite their rocky history in 1975.
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[@RockandrollNegro]

Two of the biggest offenders of the "Jack the Hack" campaign of Marvel's assistant editors were Jim Salicrup and Ralph Macchio (the editor, not the Karate Kid). Jim Shooter walked in one day and saw some Kirby art hanging in the Bullpen with some petty and crude red ink comments scribbled over it. He recognized the handwriting as belonging to Macchio, and he called him into his office and gave him a good reaming. Like a good coward, Macchio ratted out his partner-in-crime and blamed it all on Salicrup. Salicrup fessed up to it immediately and offered to call Kirby and apologize, which ended up going a long way toward earning Kirby's respect. Later, Salicrup was instrumental in getting Kirby over to Topps Comics, and Kirby agreed to come only if Salicrup promised to be his sole editor. While his treatment at his second Marvel stint was abhorrent, it at least had a somewhat happy ending. One of the antagonists stepped up and tried to make amends, which Kirby appeared to appreciate, and it inadvertently led to the birth of the Kirbyverse 15 years later.

[@theswan1852]

Thanks. I was looking all over for the "unnamed editor."

[@Kid_illithid]

I cracked a smile at the end when Jack FINALLY caught a break. Morals in taking from this story. Don’t trust business people Don’t be shitty to others Never give up

[@JerkComic]

Jack would nod his head in approval at that assesment I do believe. I like that you included don't be shitty to others. That's a big thing people miss with Kirby. For all the abuse he got, his kindness did finally come back to reward him and MAN was it nice for him to land somewhere people gave a toss and treated him well. I was getting just depressed working on this piece until I got to all of that. I was only going to talk about his animation work in passing to begin with but by the time I was writing it, I was like, heck no - we are going to live here with Kirby and be kings for just a moment. We're going to stand on the top of that hill and look back at all this stuff we've accomplished and simply Marvel at it all pun intended. Glad you enjoyed and I didn't loose people with that little bit of indulgence! Thanks so much for checking this out btw - means a lot to know people are actually watching these and it helps out the channel more than you know, so thanks again and again!

[@cghirardo5951]

How the HELL was Jack Kirby was able continously come up with ideas and artwork in his 60s and you explained how he did it: Kirby was not someone who lived in the past or looked to the past, he lived in the present and future. He focused on the future, what could be not what was. Most people his age focus on how things were, he seemed to focus on what was presently around him and what could be done. The man was the Emperor of comics!

[@reprintranch]

Real good point. I wish that there were more interviews where Kirby was asked, in detail and in multiple ways, about his creative process.

[@JerkComic]

The best idea we have of how he managed to come up with stuff, is that he was ALWAYS open. He was constantly searching both the modern, and primitive worlds for ideas and combining them in very interesting ways few others could have conceived of. His mind seemed to operate in a cycle of creation, permutation, evolution and then operated as a file cabinet, where he would just put random thoughts and ideas. This is why when his mind starting failing him it felt like there was such a disconnect between who he was at DC, and even a few months into his Marvel run. Kirby lived at once 10 years in the future, entirely in the moment which he occupied, and simultaneously in the ancient past as well. I don't know how he managed to accomplish that task though. He was simply someone who broke the mold in a lot of ways. His own explanations of his working process are muddled and I think Kirby had problems explaining and expressing how and why he did things which led to some problems later in his career as well as obfuscate how someone was THIS prolific and successful, while being maligned and mistreated as he was. Also, and I DO think this is the largest part of the equation that many fail to take into account - some WEIRD and wild stuff is gonna come to you is ALL YOU DO IS DRAW. Kirby spent literally decades at his desk - 6, 7 days a week, 10-12 hours a day. That is simply inconceivable. NO ONE has that kind of work ethic - and I think this is a large part of what took place. Alone with his thoughts, chained to a desk and with legit nothing else to do, Kirby expanded his mind and explored facets of the world and himself that I don't think many of us will ever even know exist inside of us. Our minds are a vast and limitless field of ideas and concepts; Kirby figured out how to not only tap this, but translate it to the page. Not sure if we'll ever get another one like him and I'll continued to be fascinated and learn about the man on these basis alone for the rest of my life with absolutely no hope of comprehension but rather a better appreciation of his genius for sure.

[@JerkComic]

The few where he did try to explain, they didn't work. I don't think Kirby really even understood himself. I pointed this out in the response above, but I think the major part of this all was that Kirby made himself do the work. In a very real way, being locked to a desk with one's own thoughts and ideas for the majority of your life and time alive - not joking here when we think about it - but that is going to change you. It's like a martial artist - Kirby forged his mind into a living weapon of ideas, a razor capable of cutting the veil between realities and dragging his deepest and innermost thoughts, fears, and desires into our world and translating them into ideas, lines and then forms. I wish people had asked Kirby when he was in his 40s about the process, but by the time anyone was giving him the time of day in this regard he was in his mid-60s and the mind that had once been like a steal trap, was know playing tricks and becoming less and less solid.

[@cghirardo5951]

All great points and I would add that many people of Kirby 's level struggle to explain how they work and come up with ideas and make it work. Will Eisner stated that it took him years to teach others how to come up storytelling techniques that he came up with and Jamie Hernandez once stated he could never teach others how he draws because he himself is not sure how he came up with his style. One documentary I HIGHLY RECOMMEND is Comic Book Independents. You can find it on Tubi where artists like Kevin Eastman, Wendy Pini and others , including a sociology professor, try to explain the creative process . I learned so much from watching it 5 times. I still love to watch it.

[@santiagoporroprofe2745]

Another great video. I almost cried at a bit because Jack had it so rough. It's unfair and at times hard to listen to but it's important to know it happened.

[@JerkComic]

Never forget. For everyone who worships at the altar of the big 2 - NEVER FORGET. Valentino said in our interview his ONE piece of advice to anyone going into comics? Just remember; the F-ed Kirby. Legit. And now, a few years down the line and with a much higher vantage point, this is one of the truest assessments of the industry you can find sadly. I will not lie, I chocked up working on this one. Finding out people were calling him Jack the Hack TO HIS FACE, putting his pages up like some boy's locker room in a high school and no one in the office put a stop to this s---t? Man that is just heartbreaking for me. The guy literally came up with the characters most of these people were make their livings off... sickening. And that's why I made this. Not to bash on people, or to make anyone look bad - I've no interest in bashing on dead men and have no horse in the race myself - but for the sake of history, for the sake of people who love and honor and treasure comics, this stuff needs to be known. Stan Lee can simply NO LONGER be solely portrayed as the architect of the Marvel Universe. It was a collective effort, the lion's share of work was undertaken by Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko and others like the Severins took on in large part, not Lee.

[@silverseto1158]

It has been tough honestly listening to this series, but it was a story worth telling, and one worth remembering.

[@JerkComic]

you should have had to research it... good lord. There's so much stuff I left out that is even worse honestly. It was a real horror show for Jack

[@cliffwoodbury5319]

I can understand the frustration of Kirby after creating most of the companies cashcows and comic back and feeling like all his creations didn't feel the same anymore.

[@JerkComic]

It has to be hard to have that stuff taken away from you like that even when you almost know it's an inevitability as a certain point. It's funny because later on at DC it seems like all he really wanted to do was come up with characters, set some stuff in motion and then move on whereas at Marvel he was super invested in a number of those books.

[@KalleVilenius]

Never read Kirby's run on Black Panther but it looks to be available as an Epic Collection, this might be an interesting read. That frog looks trippy.

[@JerkComic]

That frog is legit one of the things I'm obsessed with from his second stint - can't tell as I showed it over and over again though, right? haha. I highly recommend it. Don't read it as T'Challa doing it though, Just think of it as like an alternate universe character that LOOKS like Black Panther and it's all killer. Some of the art for that series is like nothing else he ever did and the color work alone makes it worth reading for sure imo. The story ages a lot better, especially for those of my generation, as Indy was a well known character and it all seems much less far-fetched having already been introduced and become so familiar with the concept in a lot of ways.

[@ジェイソントッドプラット]

best KZbin channel in the multiverse

[@Izzyreal007]

Yes I eat up this Kirby content!!!!

[@JerkComic]

Thanks so much! I used to constantly joke about being Uatu's uncle - it's my job to oversee the history of the comic's multiverse, all that has happened, all that which will happen, it is all under the domain of Uncle Jerk's eye, haha! Really appreciate you checking out my stuff and taking the time to leave a comment btw, means a lot and it helps out the channel a ton

[@JerkComic]

Glad you do! I always take a massive hammering on views when I talk about anything but modern books so I appreciate you checking it out and taking time to comment as well, helps out the channel and means a lot to know people actually give a toss about these videos I spend so long on!

[@Izzyreal007]

Oh wow WTF Uatu is my character. I collect only him kirby and stan stuff funny you say that lol

[@alexjimenez9178]

Thinking about it, with the ease of access of self publication and commissioning artists online and the rise of web comics, someone with Kirby’s work ethic would do very well today

[@JerkComic]

If independent comics had even really been a thing, let alone self-publishing, were around Kirby would have produced a body of work the likes of which we may never have seen. Though on the other hand, he might have been so successful at it that he wouldn't have HAD to make that much stuff. I also do think that there was benefit in his work when working with others on stuff and that sometimes the limitations resulted in these wonderful outcomes, that while painful for Kirby and others, do read like timeless classics. it's hard to imagine what the world of comics would have been like without Kirby, Ditko and the Marvel Age tbh.

[@AceLM92]

Another great video, look forward to the next part. Also when you mentioned Jim Shooter and Jack Kirby clashing it got me curious if doing a similar series on Jim Shooter is in the cards for you

[@JerkComic]

I have been wanting to do one for a while, but it's hard for me to remain objective about Shooter. Shooter made some outlandish claims and a lot of enemies and I could have forgiven most of it as I do feel like he truly loves the medium, but man, he stepped in it at Marvel with Kirby. I am going into that whole thing this week, but his continued claims that Kirby sued or threatened to sue Marvel get me pretty riled up and I can't seem to do anything about the guy without getting my panties in a ruffle. If I can manage to bite my tongue long enough to get out a piece that would do him some justice I will, but at least I finally get to talk about why I personally have an ax to grind with the guy.

[@AceLM92]

@@JerkComic interesting. I have a big respect for Shooter because he got Marvel back on track after the revolving door of editors in chief, but I can understand why you have that perspective, believe me I might sing a different tune about him because it's about Jack K. I don't think of Shooter as the worst like some nitwits *cough* nerdsync *cough* do for misleading reasons

[@JerkComic]

@@AceLM92 That's the same guy who made an episode about how Ditko's Spider-Man was subpar... he lost me when he started getting obsessive about Scooby Doo and leave it at that... argh. I DO respect some of what he managed to accomplish, which is why I specifically point them out in the video this week, but the guy did some seriously questionable stuff and his claims about Kirby are just not true. Never were, never will be. He's a consummate business man and I get where he's coming from - still respect a lot of what he accomplished - but that don't mean I gotta like the guy, haha!

[@AceLM92]

@@JerkComic yeah that's him. His channel strikes me as artificial, chasing the "nerd culture" trend and assembled together by a crew to get monetized and paid rather than created by one passionate fan. Channels like yours, Comic Tropes, Salazar Knight, and even Linkara strike me as actual fans who read the comics and speak from what they know as opposed to looking it up on Wikipedia or having someone else write the script. Plus he doesn't properly fact check or site sources and his Stan Lee worship is nauseating. Yeah i finished the video today. Good per usual, but I'll have to rewatch it to give a decent comment on it. When I met Shooter last year I asked him a few things and he confirms that he knows he was seen as a hardass boss at Marvel (which he admits he was) and that they DID burn him in effigy at a barbecue at John Byrne's house lol. He also told me about his experience working under Mort Weisinger and dude, if people think Shooter was bad, Weisinger made him seem like Mr. Rogers based on what he said.

[@nerdrock8087]

Hearing that Kirby was mocked and made fun of is completely MIND BLOWING. It's like making fun of the guy who invented the idea of a basement ( or foundation ) for a house. Also, hearing what a rough time he had amazes me, because I keep thinking about his time at DC drawing Super Powers in the 80's!!

[@JerkComic]

Yeah I'm still kinda in shock about how much crap he got while he was at Marvel during this second stint. I knew stuff was rough, but man I would never have thought it was like this. Madness, true and utter madness. Kirby WAS comics and I just don't get it... but hey, that's why I'm doing this series I guess. And that DC was a very different DC than the one he worked for during his original time at the industry. Don't worry, we'll be talking about that though, it actually ties in later on in this entire epic if you can believe it or not (I know, shocking, haha). Hopefully that will better illuminate why he did that work and shed more light on the King as that is one heck of a heartwarming tale actually!

[@nerdrock8087]

@@JerkComic Good Lord, dude....you are an entire OCEAN of information! I can only imagine how cool it would be to sit and talk comics with you in person. Please keep up the good work.

[@JerkComic]

@@nerdrock8087 I do live streams on IG all the time if you're on there and ever feel like hanging out and you can get access to my discord if you sign up on Patreon (sorry shameless plug I know haha). If there's one thing I love, it's talking comics haha.

[@Izzyreal007]

It's like hearing history coming alive! AMAZING content 👏. Amazon has a cool documentary called: Kirby at war, not a bad watch. I've always been fascinated with comicbooks and heros even before I could read. It was the images that told me the story and the characters that feed my imagination. More than the artwork and comics I fell in love with Jacob's story. His tough upbringing as a kid on the Eastside helping family the best way he could. Finding his talent so young, becoming a soldier and serving his country to fight in the war. Then there is Rosalind his rock, I always felt her story needed to be told as well. She held him together, I don't think he could have done it all in the face of so many back stabbers if not for her. It is tough to hear because I can relate to this great man is so many ways. I am a soldier so it hits home more. I hope he at least received VA assistance, but now that I think of it, if it is shitty now the VA must have been shittier than. I just hope he lived a good life and found some joy and peace in his world of both foreign and domestic war. I don't like bullies so the bullpen mystery $#*! still has me curious. Going though the list of names and pics in the 70s just to get a idea. Well let me stop, Thank you {JERKCOMICS} keep it up, I love all this Jack 'King' Kirby the master Nuff said! To the true believers, belief is the enemy of knowledge. "If history teaches anything, it teaches that self-delusion in the face of unpleasant facts is folly." R.R.

[@bc4315]

Thanks, JerkComic! 👍

[@JerkComic]

Thank you as always for checking it out! Really appreciate it

[@HammerNJ1]

SO glad you’re telling this story..left you a message on Patreon on why. Keep up the great work!

[@JerkComic]

Just saw that and hit you up, btw!

[@Allison_Troy]

Another stellar chapter. Can't wait for the next one. Great work, sir.

[@JerkComic]

Thanks so much, really appreciate the kind words and support as always!

[@angelmanfredy]

Absolute gold. You know, I had heard Herbie was added to the cartoon because execs were afraid kids may set themselves afire trying to be like Johnny Storm. I now know the truth 40 years later. Haha. In Marvel’s (and the fans’) defense, a Kirby return to some of his classics (FF, Hulk, etc.) while integrating canon established while he was gone would have been best. Not for Jack, I know. He was a tortured soul at this point and acted out of emotion and previous career trauma.

[@JerkComic]

There were rumors about that, and the Australian Wolverine, that were like "well known facts" when we were growing up for sure, haha. It's not surprising to learn that Lee, the inexperienced and extremely overeager individual he was, had managed to jam up the rights situation already by 1977 when pre-production really got going that there were already flagship IPs and entire teams that couldn't be used because of the frivolity of his signing rights away all will-nilly. I'd long suspected they just wanted comedy relief and Johnny would have been both hard to animate, as well as difficult to have in a fight because he couldn't really use his power - you know, animation with people running around on fire aren't the best sellers for kids, haha. And in Kirby's defense, and not to be argumentative here, but the BEST thing would have been to ACTUALLY leave Jack Kirby alone and let him do what HE wanted. Kirby just wanted to work alone in a little corner, and that's absolutely what he should have done - 2001 is a great example. Had he just been left to work on stuff that was outside of continuity, or Marvel proper anyway, it wouldn't have been an issue. It was Lee and Thomas' insistence that he return to a book he'd already done, had no interest in, and no long had the mental faculties to integrate nearly 2 decades of prior continuity into. If they would have done Black Panther with another character I think it might have actually survived, and had Devil Dinosaur not been so heavily reliant on Kirby for it's existence, that title also could have also made the cut once Kirby left in 78. The sad fact is, Kirby's left eye was very nearly shot - he was going partially blind, he was tired, he'd used up most of the sand from his magical bag of tricks trying to make things work at DC, and I think that most of what he had left in him was stuff like Eternals... and well, that's just not up to snuff with even the work he was doing say 4 years prior. He was done and he needed to be moving into the twilight years of his life, retiring and enjoying some time with Roz. Instead, he found himself corralled into 3 more years of misery. And it shows. Thanks for checking this out btw! Means a lot and I really appreciate you taking time to leave a comment, helps out the channel a ton

[@angelmanfredy]

@@JerkComic thank you for your long and thoughtful reply! You know much more than I, of course. I was thinking as a 10 year old avid FF collector I would have been THRILLED to see him and his art return (and stories). But, man, few can hang that long. I’ve been working in video games for 30 years and I’ve certainly had times when I’d phoned it in. Not easy to keep the Kirby pace that long. It’s an absolute wonder that he had as much output as he did! I don’t have any of the 2001 comics but now I’m gonna seek them out. How may I best support you! Not all your content is up my alley (mostly I’m a Marvel fan with and a fan of a few independent series like Badger). Still, please lmk how best to help you keep kicking ass. QQ - Did Kirby’s family do “OK” once all the settlements with Marvel and later Disney were done?

[@JerkComic]

@@angelmanfredy First off, no worries - I LOVE this channel because I get to talk comics. I have no one in "real life" which to do so with, and this has been a wonderful experience and getting to share and learn and teach, most humbly my pleasure. Second, oh heck yeah it would have! But only if he had been feeling it. And he was not. He didn't like where Marvel was at and he did his best to try and just stay out of it, but they kept dragging him back in. You'd think once the whole Captain America thing went down you'd just shuffle him off to stuff like Eternals and try to let him ride out his contract. Did Marvel? Nope, haha. Okay, let's put him on Black Panther. Oops! Well, we've got a con to get him back on FF, TWICE and they managed to do it, the love was gone and so was my interest in seeing him forced to work on that stuff. Had he had even a passing interest I'd have been on that like white on rice, haha! Lastly, no one will EVER know how the Kirby family/estate made out. Disney will make sure of that. I can tell you that there's NO WAY they didn't get something short of billions paid out over time though. The lady who helped write the 1976 Copyright Revision Act that Disney and Marvel relied no to subjugate him during his life, as well as nearly all other work for hires around him, was frothing at the mouth to get in front of the SCOTUS on behalf of Kirby to talk about "Disney and Marvels perversion of the entire intent of the law's revision". In short, they LOST case after case after case. When it came time to actually put the cards on the table to get in from of the Supreme Court and back that ish up though? Yeah, they pussed out and signed an out of court settlement DAYS before it was set to go to trial. They tried to call the Kirby's bluff but they never backed down. I can't say for sure what they got, how they will get/got it, but I can say, there's no way they were able to successfully dispute creation and ownership of Cap, FF, Hulk, Doom, Namor, other FF derivatives, Thor, Iron Man, or a host of others. The Ditko's will get a settlement like this for Spider-Man eventually for the same reason, and we will never know about THAT either as it will all be swept under the rug to protect the image of Disney, Marvel and Lee. Strange is one of the other big one - Lee admitted in writing that was Ditko's creation, NOT his, so while we as the general public will never be privy to the fallout, I can say without doubt, there's NO WAY the Kirby' passed up getting in front of the SCOTUS and raking Marvel and Disney over the coals without getting something NICE put in front of them... As per support, Patreon is the best and easiest way. That's a monthly thing though and if you want to go another way Ko-Fi is the best for one time donations or contributions to the channel whenever and in whatever amount you feel like. Support from viewers make these videos possible paying for source and other production materials so I sincerely appreciate it as these are not cheap to make given how many books and different magazines and stuff I often have to track down haha. Both Patreon and Ko-Fi links can be found in the description of any and all videos btw, and thanks again for the support and kind words!

[@angelmanfredy]

@@JerkComic wow so it as I has hoped…Marvel and Disney didn’t want the terrible PR so (probably) offered something juicy to the Kirby estate (if I read you correctly). I’ve watched the (2014?) Jack Kirby documentary many times (I listen to it to go to sleep now, I’m weird) and his daughter and son seem very sweet and their entire family likely as well (his grandson runs the Kirby Museum channel right?). Yeah poor Jack. Lee and Goodman should have had a clear plan with Jack when bringing him in. It must have been insanely hard for him those last years at Marvel. Expect a donation very soon! Wish you well.

[@reprintranch]

@@angelmanfredy Not much has been publicly disclosed about the settlement, which occurred in late September of 2014. One report stated that a supposedly knowledgeable source said the settlement was in the "mid-eight figures," which I interpret to mean somewhere between $40 million and $60 million. Not bad, even though it's a drop in the bucket compared to the revenues that Kirby's work generated. *** You may be interested to know -- and I just learned this myself -- that last year, notices of copyright termination were filed by Larry Lieber and the estates of several deceased Marvel artists, including Don Heck and Steve Ditko. Attorney Marc Toberoff is representing some of them -- he's the same guy who represented the Kirby family. I'm not sure how much documentation there is regarding the work of Lieber and Heck, but with Ditko (as with Kirby) there are quite a few old Stan Lee interviews wherein he basically says "the artist is making up the stories and sometimes I don't even know what they'll be," which is a pretty good argument against the idea that Ditko was just following directives from Stan Lee and, thus, was acting on a work-for-hire basis. I would assume that Kirby, Ditko, Heck and the rest of the artists back then were purchasing their own art supplies, performing most of the work in facilities that the artists (not Marvel) paid for, and that Marvel had very little say-so regarding the exact time and manner in which the art was created. All of those factors argue against work-for-hire. In Kirby's case, there was at least once instance in which he prepared original art for a Hulk story in 1962 and Lee rejected it outright because he didn't like the plotline Kirby had developed. (Larry Lieber witnessed some of the interaction between Lee and Kirby, which ended with Kirby ripping the artwork in half and plunging it into a wastebasket, and later Lieber retrieved it to study. The artwork, still in Lieber's possession, was used as an exhibit in the Kirby case.) Again, Lee rejecting artwork on the grounds that "Jack made up a story and I didn't like it" is a factor that suggests the relationship was not work-for-hire but that Kirby was an independent contractor who was creating artwork and plotlines of his own choosing and then bringing the finished pencilled pages to Lee in hopes that he would accept them for publication. The fact that the U.S. Supreme Court agreed to take the Kirby case scared the beejabbers out of Disney, because the old case law that had been relied on in lower courts was highly vulnerable (that is, poorly reasoned) and Marc Toberoff was apparently ready to tear it down piece by piece. I hope Toberoff comes through for his current group of clients. And I'm surprised this new Lieber/Ditko/Heck story has gotten so little media attention. At least one of the court documents (Marvel/Disney's response to Lieber) is available online and is pretty interesting -- contains some Lieber history and also suggests that Marvel/Disney will continue to reply on previous work-for-hire decisions, which probably makes Toberoff happy.

[@TheBestComicKing]

Keep up the good work, man. Your videos are fascinating.

[@JerkComic]

Wouldn't mean a thing if cool people like yourself didn't take the time to check them out! Thanks a ton for the kind words and taking time to comment as always, means a lot and helps out the channel a ton!

[@FrenchPotato661]

Such good videos brother! Onwards and upwards, have a good one!

[@JerkComic]

Finally there's light at the end of the tunnel on this one. Next episode won't be NEARLY as soul crushing I promise, haha! Can't wait to finish up on this one and go out on a high note for the King, he deserved more but at least he didn't go down like this...

[@mikedolan6176]

another awesome vid my dude. cant wait for the finale

[@mikedolan6176]

@Martial Art TRUTHS & Training please don't drag me into your nonsense. If you don't like the video dont watch it. That simple. But don't try and convince me of anything. You tried to hijack the live chat looking for a fight. Not interested bud.

[@JerkComic]

And this is why I love my channel - much respect my friend!

[@comicbookguy6361]

I love your passion and dedication in each of your videos.

[@JerkComic]

Thanks so much! People either seem to love it or hate it - when I was talking with Mike Allred this past week he stopped and cocked his head mid-sentence, "I've heard you before, I don't think I've seen your videos, but you have a very... specific way of talking" haha. It's one of those things that with either drive you up the wall or endear me to you forever... glad you're in the latter half, lmao!

[@ericjohnson9623]

Awesome video! Here are a couple minor corrections in case you ever do an omnibus edition or updated version: - The Black Panther comic that was canceled before Kirby took over was Jungle Action, not Jungle Adventures. - The Fantastic Four cartoon Kirby worked on and included HERBIE was not produced by Hanna-Barbera, but by a company named DePatie-Freleng Enterprises, who did the Pink Panther intros. Hanna-Barbera's Fantastic Four cartoon was a decade earlier, contemporaneous with Kirby's run on the comic. with the Human Torch and designs by Alex Toth. EDIT: Okay, so you bring up that DePatie-Freleng Enterprises was "the other company involved." But I haven't seen anything that suggests Hanna-Barbera was involved in the 70s cartoon except this story. Is this from Mark Evanier's book? I checked the end credits of one of the episodes (Calamity on the Campus, with Dragon Man) and there is no Hanna-Barbera copyright notice or for any company other than Marvel Productions, with DePatie and Freleng listed as producers. To this day, Hanna-Barbera owns the rights rights the 60s show (it used to air on Boomerang) but NOT the 70s show. I don't know, Mark Evanier was there and I wasn't, but there does seem to be some conflating and confusion between Hanna-Barbera's earlier FF cartoon and Kirby impressing Hanna-Barbera on a different FF cartoon a decade later. There are even a few times you show the 60s Alex Toth FF, complete with Johnny Storm, as you talk about the Human Torch not being in the 70s show. Maybe I am overthinking this, but aside from this story, I see no other account or evidence Hanna-Barbera had anything to do with the 70s FF cartoon.

[@robertheadley8561]

Another great video

[@JerkComic]

Thanks as always for checking it out and the interest and support!

[@gb7995]

That unnamed editor HAD to be Shooter, right? Or maybe even Thomas??

[@JerkComic]

No. He was an assistant editor at the time and both Shooter and Thomas were named in latter parts of the quotes and stories. I don't know WHO the heck it was, would have dropped a name if I did haha!

[@Izzyreal007]

@@JerkComic yeah I thought Roy as well. Hmmm

[@JerkComic]

@@Izzyreal007 Definitely not as he certainly wasn't an assistant editor at this point, and while they had their differences - Thomas is the one who gave him Black Panther and let him run with the Indiana Jones style archeological thing, so gonna say not Thomas. I've always found it strange this individual was not named and can only assume that it's likely because they still have some "juice" today. Otherwise, I get the feeling Evanier would have opened up on this one... I'm curious to say the least. Would love to know this guy's name AND the name of the guy who ran Marvelmania, think I might end up deep digging on Marvelmania as I can at least track that one down presumably. Hopefully I get a name here some day as well!

[@MrCobalt67]

Wait, Jack never cared about Hulk?

[@JerkComic]

More so than even other characters, Lee and Kirby disagreed on where to take The Hulk. Lee was very much inspired by Jeckyl and Hyde where as Kirby was doing Frankenstein straight up. The series never really caught on with readers like a lot of the other early books and Kirby's role quickly diminished. He didn't dislike him, there's just not a connect there like FF or especially Thor, and I know that the direction they went with for Hulk wasn't necessarily to Kirbys tastes.

[@ignaciodimeglio9840]

I feel a little bit like a heretic saying this but, I'm glad Kirby got to leave comics and find happines again in drawing for animation. Also healthcare.

[@JerkComic]

That doesn't make you heretical. I wish he'd never gone back to Marvel for this second stint other than he got introduced to animation. It was a deplorable way to treat him, the assignments and pay were insulting and I rejoined when Kirby finally took leave of the industry he'd helped to basically re-invent less than 20 years prior. He deserved a better life and I think that being happy to see him go there and achieve that, well, that just makes you a decent human being, haha

[@ignaciodimeglio9840]

@@JerkComic thanks bro ❤️ yeah i wish he had never gone back to Marvel too. He and so many other creators deserve better.

[@JerkComic]

@@ignaciodimeglio9840 Amen to this! Sharing their story is the only way I know of to stop it from happening again too, being a big part of why I did this series actually.

[@ignaciodimeglio9840]

@@JerkComic thanks for everything you do man ❤️

[@bluebunnybooks]

Bellow from Bakersfield California

[@JerkComic]

Call back from Carbondale! Thanks as always for checking stuff out and taking time to comment man!

[@bluebunnybooks]

@@JerkComicmy pleasure.

[@bozoclown2098]

Any jack Kirby action figures ?

[@JerkComic]

Of Jack or designed by Jack? Of, I think the Kirby's licensed his likeness one time to someone like Super7 but he was pretty steadfast about his likeness not being sued to sell stuff after he left Marvel that last time in 1978. BY him, oh yeah. That's a story for another day and one you might be hearing before you know it by chance...

[@ジェイソントッドプラット]

Hey boss! Can I ask about your pattern? sorry to do it here - can't locate a better way in a simple 10 minute search. You mention in the cool tier that you provide free shipping of art work in the US. 1) I am in Japan - not free is ok, but can you shit it here anyway? 2) is it your artwork, or are you getting your industry friends to do it? thanks for checking this - you are the best on the internet

[@JerkComic]

My pattern? I do some artwork on the side to pay bills, some original stuff, but I'm pretty well known for my recreations and homages of original art and stuff. Not sure what you're asking about, but if I've got to ship stuff to Japan I'm definitely not able to send that on my dollar - international shipping is a killer and a lot of people won't even do it anymore because it's such a headache. Feel free to hit me up here or on Instagram or email jerkcomicATgmail.com

[@ジェイソントッドプラット]

@@JerkComic Sorry I meant Patreon - what was I typing "pattern" for...

[@JerkComic]

@@ジェイソントッドプラット aha! Gotcha. No I can't cover international shipping and pieces are all done by me. I was a tattoo artist so specialize in recreating or mashing stuff up. If you're interested drop me a line and I can show you some of my stuff or you can check out my Instagram page where I'm posting stuff I'm currently doing as commissions and that kind of thing man

[@DM-sy4hg]

It's crazy that the Marvel bullpen was mocking Kirby's work in the 1970s. The comics coming out of Marvel in the 70s were generally garbage. To me, that was the worst period Marvel had and it was not Kirby's fault at all. As for his art suffering at that point, an older man nearing the end of his life probably doesn't want to spend 10 hours a day alone in a room drawing. Lots of other stuff on his mind at that point, I'd bet.

[@JerkComic]

Oh he definitely didn't WANT to, but he still did. Kirby NEVER slacked off. The big problem was he was basically blind in that left eye and just couldn't get certain stuff right with perspectives and a few other things as a result. On top of that he was starting to just draw random daily objects incorrectly sometimes, and I think this was a big point that shows he was beginning to have memory problems and stuff. It's incredible how well he managed to work through and cope with it, though this often did come from a series of fairly helpful inkers who did their best to keep his work up to snuff. I personally love Kirby's Black Panther run, I think Devil Dinosaur is super fun, Sandman was totally solid, and his run on the Losers - while dramatically different, definitely Kirby's second run had stuff other than 2001 that was really great. And I will never understand them making fun of Kirby - that's straight lunacy in my eyes.

[@cliffwoodbury5319]

when we going to see the robot with F-4!?

[@JerkComic]

You mean HERBIE? He's from the cartoon, and we definitely see him, haha. It's in the animation episode towards the end of the series

[@jrome_art]

I really enjoy your content. The only thing I can’t help but notice is that you constantly repeat the same thing through the vid. Maybe it’s intentional. I just want to point it out. Anyway, thanx and I will continue to enjoy your work.

[@JerkComic]

I try not to get TOO repetitive, but that's part of my learning disability and I have an annoying proclivity to think in circles. There's some stuff I do that intentionally with to reinforce or talk about in different factors but it's something I do have to fight against - hope it's not too awfully annoying. Once I get to a certain point an editor, or someone - anyone - else to look at my scripts is pretty high up on the list because of this actually.

[@ivan363]

🎰

[@JerkComic]

Thanks as always dude!

[@ivan363]

Another Jack-pot

[@JerkComic]

Dude, this had me rolling around - you win comments for the day! Thanks as always for the kind words and taking time to not only check stuff out but leave a comment man, means a lot and helps out a ton!

[@ivan363]

@@JerkComic 🎰 Real recognize Real My G 💪🏾

[@StruggleoftheOutsider]

(not that I disagree with the perspective whatsoever... just curious...)

[@JerkComic]

No, I get you. And I do try and point out what Lee was responsible for, the cohesive narrative, the names, that silly dialogue, the crossovers, the promotion - that was Lee. He did NOT come up with these characters and he benefited monetarily in ways that NO ONE else at Marvel did simply because he took credit, and he was only in a position to do that because his Uncle owned the place where he worked and he had a stranglehold on the talent and creation of books when it came that kind of thing. I just want Kirby to get the credit he's due, Lee what he's do - and I swear, even if it comes off mean, I don't mean it that way. It IS hard to spend a year or two reading about this stuff and just having these shenanigans pop up over and over again making Kirby's life difficulty and costing him time and money, while Lee was stacking up the cash and having to do increasingly LESS work.

[@SotNist]

Ah, ye olde "the writing is shit" aka "I should have that job / get that money" extortion racket. Tried and true. Feeding that train of thought to fan zines in order to rally the Misery-esque "he didn't get out of the cock-a-doodie car!!!" types against him? Wow. Even more hilarious considering this was the era where people were starting to cover 90% of the art with tl;dr tomes of total wank in cramped text boxes. I always like seeing how these familiar tactics play out in different avenues over generations. Reminds me of that Stephen Spielberg documentary "Five Came Back" about the directors who were conscripted to produce counter-propaganda in World War 2, with Frank Capra going on to form the first independent director's studio... only to be conveniently destroyed by critics.

[@blackbolt2661]

Walt Disney stole steamboat wiily. then fired the artist

[@JerkComic]

You referring to Ub Iwerks? Iwerks worked for Disney for quite a while after he stole Mickey from him and it was this whole weird thing. Disney, well that dude stole EVERYTHING though. You know Will Eisner came up with his friggin signature? For real. My brain almost imploded when I found that out. Like, you can't even come up with your won SIGNATURE? wow... one of the biggest companies in the world. Go greed and screwing over anyone and everyone working for you who dares to stand up for themselves or demand a living wage! yay

[@alienbob7025]

I feel like everything that you love is built upon some kind of exploitation. With Kirby, it just feels different. The dude inspired millions, he should have had health care by default. He wasn't a run of the mill comic artist and it sucks that he was treated like one.

[@JerkComic]

I don't even know if I would say that Kirby was deserving of special treatment, I mean monumentally important and I LOVE the guy to pieces - but I just see that as an inalienable part of what artists and creatives should have access to. Seeing how Kirby was maligned and hearing victim blaming talking about how he "knew what he was getting into/singing" really makes me sad. Krigstein said the same thing in the 50s, tried to unionize and basically got blacklisted from the industry as a result so unsurprising it was a nonissue for so long... thanks so much for checking this out means a lot and hope you're enjoying the series!

[@drewgeraci8434]

The John Lennon/Swine thing you mention is nonsensical. I've bought these books fresh off the newsstands and have been a lifelong fan who dug deep into fan mags, then and now. I don't know who told you the bullpen was mad that The Swine resembled John Lennon.but they're 100% full of crap. Otherwise, I've greatly enjoyed the series you've done.

[@JerkComic]

While I was asked not to share names they were people in the bullpen. I wasn't particularly aware of it and certainly not a hill I'd die on, and I didn't find mention of it any of the even fanzine stuff I had to go through for the nasty letters from Marvel editors etc. Had 3 different people bring it up and thought it worth including. Glad you're enjoying otherwise though!

[@pablosonic892]

The 'assistant editor' that went full on psycho on Kirby that you kept secret I assume you did so because you'd have the almighty Marvel descend on you like Scientologists and you'd be hit with legal problems accusing you of defamation and slander. However, that doesn't mean the comment section can't speculate. My educated guess is between two people. From what I've ascertained by various sources over the years I presumed who you were talking about being the megalomaniac was House Roy, I mean Roy Thomas. But, the way you describe the man's demeanor, sociopathic narcissism, self-entitlement and way he carries himself, his overall glib, misguided sense of confidence and toxic vibe,. it just exudes the prince of darkness himself: Jim Shooter. But, the mire I think about it and relisten to how you set it up and what you carefully top toe around, I'm thinking this is a The Ghost And The Darkness situation here possibly and you're actually making a amalgamation of the two. Roy is on record for admitting to sending a fake letter from a disgruntled fan that he, in fact, wrote critiquing Kirby so that Editorial staff would strip Jack of what little power he had and use as leverage to control him. The fact Roy says this so casually and without a hint of remorse makes me realize more than ever to never meet your heroes. They're all the villain of the piece.

[@StruggleoftheOutsider]

is this informed by the recent rise and fall of Stan Lee book?

[@JerkComic]

Have I read it? Yes. Did it really tell me anything I wasn't fully aware of? No. I have long had a conflicted view of Lee, but my main goal in these videos is historical accuracy and I find myself constantly at odds with the wildly untrue nature of Lee's claims about his work. I don't have a horse in the race, though you know? I have nothing to gain by slamming on a dead man. He was a big part of what made Marvel Marvel - but he didn't come up with a lick of it. A LOT of my viewpoint was solidified by the Lee Kirby Stuf' Said book , which was basically just a collection of interviews that span the entirety of Kirby and Lee's lives. If you read it, and they're presented in their full context not cut down, it is painfully clear that Lee got into a habit of stealing credit, and then ended up reaping massive benefits from this and it irked Kirby. Kirby never came back on Lee personally though, which I can't say about Lee and I just want people to know who was responsible for what. I said the same thing about Steve Ditko years ago. I just don't see how Lee can say, "an insect character who can walk on walls" and that is how he claims sole creator credit to Spider-Man. That's MORE than what he can say for most of the early creations for Kirby and especially stuff like Galactus and Silver Surfer which were straight Kirby. Most of this information in drawn from biographies of Kirby, tons of interviews, and years of just reading this stuff and putting it into context. Sadly, that comes down to in a lot of cases railing on Stan Lee for the poor choices and continued bullying he was at the very least complicit in.

[@StruggleoftheOutsider]

@@JerkComic Right on... just curious cuz I haven't read it yet... I have read the Nuff' Said book.. and yeah.. lotta confirming what you've already gleamed over the years... I will say the aspect you touched on.. the situation of Marvel as a corporation pushing Lee into a position of one stop sole creator to barricade against potential future lawsuits.. is an interesting wrinkle I haven't heard so defined elsewhere... This would provide perhaps the sole point of partial redemption for Stan... if he was in a position of trying to establish and maintain some body of wealth to leave his family.. at the very least it's an understandable human motivation that jives with the recorded facts.

[@raypaz2947]

Was it Jim Shooter ?

[@JerkComic]

I assume you mean the snarky editor? And if so, shockingly - hell to the no. There were a number of individuals who harassed Kirby but I believe that Jim Sallicrup was the one who is most frequently sited as marking up his work - he is however not the assistant editor who made Kirby's life a living hell during this second stint. I legit don't know who that was because if I did and I had proof or a quote or something, yeah, that name would have definitely been in here. I'm not here to make friends, I tell the facts and I know this all went down, it's widely documented - but no one wants to name names which makes me think he/she still has some juice or clout at this point.

[@raypaz2947]

@@JerkComic yeah man if no one is giving names. Most likely still has power to mess with lives. Sounds like a miserable person

[@JerkComic]

@@raypaz2947 amen to this. Still would have called em out haha! If I ever do come up with some proof... 😉