Roman Numeral Analysis and Four-Voice Counterpoint || Tonal Voice Leading 9

[@timothydeneffe249]

So valuable and detailed for KZbin. Thank you so much. I haven't been able to find anything this theoretically rigorous since my composition class.

[@JacobGran]

Wow, thank you!

[@bobfrog4836]

I wish we analyzed music in my comp classes. Instead it was just unstructured "everybody write music!". Except don't write music that's tonal or has a rhythm. Great, let's write music nobody wants to listen to. I have a degree in that. :/

[@johnpar85]

Thank you so much for these videos. I've learned a tremendous amount already and am now completely hooked on counterpoint!

[@GabrielRios5]

Excellent! There is a little mistake at 10:28. C is grade VII instead of VI.

[@JacobGran]

Good catch! That is indeed a typo. I’ll favorite your comment so that it comes up first in the list, rather than reupload the entire video.

[@faustoorieta]

There's great videos but yours are probably the best out there. A lot of useful information, excellent video and audio quality, great choice of examples, and the fact that you don't waste time rambling but instead go straight to the point. I don't know why this is all free honestly.

[@JacobGran]

Thank you very much! You are too generous.

[@balbino4]

Thank you very much! Very very very very good!

[@JacobGran]

Glad you liked it!

[@kiren3168]

Great video as always

[@JacobGran]

Thank you.

[@souljourney1392]

I can't wait every day for the Tonal Voice Leading list starting from this post which is no longer translated. Please Sir translate from this post to the end of the list for me even if it's only English. I'm so grateful.

[@kpmaynard]

Awesome!! Very clear explanation.

[@JacobGran]

Glad it was helpful!

[@denizatalay]

Hi Jacob, great video! I wonder which program did you use to make arrows on the score. I need to do the similar with my score analysis.

[@JacobGran]

Thank you! I just used the insert shape tool in PowerPoint; Word has the same feature.

[@armansrsa]

THank you for another great video. You said "The soprano gets the best melodic material" Is there a way to write these parts so that the tenor gets the best melodic material? THe reason I ask is because I am a baritone singer and want to write parts that will allow my vocal part to be the main melody in the song I sing.

[@JacobGran]

Sure, go for it! I only meant that this is the most idiomatic way to compose in a homorhythmic SATB texture.

[@joaomus]

Jean-Philippe Rameau is still a pretty underrated composer. The guy was really good.

[@JacobGran]

I have to admit I don't know his music very well, but there is a Scott Ross recording of some of his keyboard music that I quite like.

[@joaomus]

@@JacobGranI could not recommend his operas enough, and his 'pieces de clavecin en concerts'. Very pleasant music.

[@atlassilverbraid]

Why aren't you using more staffs with the different clefs when explaining this?

[@jasonspottek2528]

Discussion: I was thinking about why C.P.E Bach wasn't fond of doubling the bass voice in 6/3 chords. Is it because the third of a chord (other than diminished or augmented) is usually the color tone or "active" tone in the chord? Doubling the third in the bass voice may draw the listener from the more important melodic material.

[@pjbpiano]

Not really. It is actually for a different reason. Bach’s book is not about written counterpoint. It is about thoroughbass and it deals with actually playing four voice counterpoint given only the bass and numbers above or below the bass. He does not treat these chords as inversions, he rather treated it as a 6/3 chord directly. And he explained that whilst playing 6/3 chords in succession or in certain context, doubling the bass will cause voice leading problems (parallel octaves or fifths) and so unless you can double the sixth or third, it is best you slip into a three voice texture for easier manuveuring through the written bass line. When you are doing it for written counterpoint, it is a easier to navigate through that voice leading challenge. However, if you are realising a thoroughbass piece by sight, especially at rapid tempos, you will not have time to look ahead and see if there would be an unavoidable parallel fifth or octave interval that come along with the 6/3 chord, so it is best to simply avoid it by not doubling the bass note so as to avoid painting yourself into a corner.

[@joelmascarenhas8105]

I am confused on the dublings of first inveesion chords different people give differ preferences for doubling 6/3 chords

[@JacobGran]

Excellent question. I get into that a little bit more in the video on How to Compose Triads in Keyboard Style. There is nothing inherently wrong with doubling the bass note of a 6/3 chord; ultimately it comes down to preference, as you say. But I agree with Emanuel Bach and some others that the voice leading tends to be easier if the bass note of a 6/3 chord is not doubled, and the vertical harmony is also somewhat preferable. If you look at J.S. Bach's C major prelude from the first book of the Well-Tempered Clavier, you will notice that he did not double the bass note of any of the 6/3 chords in the entire piece, even though he was composing in a 5-voice texture.

[@ShaharHarshuv]

How do I harmonize a cadence if I have Re on the bass? To have a V chord I would have to use 6/4 chord which is forbidden. If I use a VII chord with a leading tone Ti I would have a diminished chord which is also dissonant. Seems like if I want a leading tone I have to use VII(#5)6. Which is a minor chord in first inversion, and also non-diatonic. If I don't need a leading tone I can use bVII6 (Like in Myxolydian)

[@ShaharHarshuv]

Update: Just realized that The right solution is probably VII6 diminished because even though it is diminished the dissonant is an augmented 4th which is not occurring with the bass thus it is regarded as consonant.

[@JacobGran]

@@ShaharHarshuv Bingo! I believe I mentioned that solution in the video on three voice counterpoint but I may have forgotten to restate it in this one. We should probably double Re in an upper voice in the VII6 chord in four voices, and allow it to move Re - Mi to avoid parallel octaves with the bass.

[@baranysos]

How does the doubling rules/guides apply to viio chords in major, as opposed to in Dorian? Afaik, the third of the chord (2^) is doubled, which makes the bass doubled in viio6.

[@JacobGran]

Great question. I would say that if we are using a viio chord at all, it would be for specific voice leading reasons. The doubling "rules" should be thought of as idiomatic preferences, and they shouldn't ever get in the way of the smoothest voice leading solution. For instance, Fux gives examples in his chapter on first species four-voice counterpoint of vii6 chords both with the bass doubled and with the chordal fifth doubled, even though in modern harmony textbooks this note would be considered a tendency tone (a vii 5/3 position chord is unusable in strict counterpoint since one of the voices must form a diminished fifth above the bass). Doubling the chordal root would mean doubling the leading tone, which is why it is unidiomatic, but depending on the voice leading context, I could imagine even this happening.

[@christian197]

Hi JacobHi Jacob First, thanks very much for your explanation. I didn't know that there is no rules about the harmonic progression in counterpoint exercise. It gives me now more space to continue study counterpoint. After the Video (How to Compose with Chords and Triads, only with 3 Notes) whitch I understand well, did I get confused in the Voice Leading Video 9. Did you have a Video example that shows step by step of how to place note to note to get a four voice Chord. Witch way are the best not to noodling around. Do you have one when I get the Patreon of you.

[@armansrsa]

On the Wikipedia page on "Voice Leading" it says "When a chord contains one or more notes that will be reused in the chords immediately following, then these notes should remain, that is retained in the respective parts." Does this guidance apply to these exercises or should there be as little repeat of notes as possible to make each line as melodically interesting as possible? On one hand, reusing notes seems to be encouraged in voice leading but in counterpoint, the melodies all having their own interest seems to conflict with that idea.

[@JacobGran]

The suggestion to preserve common tones applies more to the next video on “How to compose triads in keyboard style.” With four voice counterpoint we aren’t thinking so much about chord progression from measure to measure, we really do want to think about the best possible melodic designs for each voice. That being said, you can see from my example and Mozart’s that certain lines like the Tenor May have to repeat tones a lot more than they would have in a two- or three- voice exercise.

[@armansrsa]

@@JacobGran The quote I posted in my question was taken from the Voice leading wikipedia page. Is counterpoint not voice leading? Perhaps I am misunderstanding the two.

[@JacobGran]

@@armansrsa in a thoroughbass or harmony exercise, the chords are predetermined by the chord figures or Roman numerals and the goal is to find the best voice leading given those constraints. That is the context for the advice on Wikipedia. In a counterpoint exercise, where the chords are not predetermined but only the line of the CF, the goal is to find the chords that lead to the best voice leading. We don’t know how many common tones there will be beforehand because the chords aren’t predetermined.

[@keyxmusic]

Hi Dr. Gran, is voice crossing tolerated in this style of writing? I find the CFs at 15:12 quite leapy and thus I'm tempted to write cross voices to still have contrary motion.

[@JacobGran]

Yes, Albrechtsberger and some others even highly encourage voice crossings. I wouldn't overdo it, but it is a very useful trick.

[@keyxmusic]

@@JacobGran When doing this, do we count the parallel fifths/ octaves that don't directly come from any 2 voices but are the results of voice crossings? Sorry if it's a bit too abstract.

[@JacobGran]

@@keyxmusic That is actually a very important question. We can find examples in Palestrina, Marenzio, and others of voice crossings being used to cover up parallel fifths, so for early composers it does seem that the parallel motion is forbidden only for literal motion between two voices. But almost every author of the tonal common practice would forbid that kind of voice leading and the practice disappears. So I would say no, but it is a complicated question.

[@keyxmusic]

@@JacobGran Thank you! One of the rare cases where the early composers aren't as strict as the later ones.

[@illb3bach]

I notice that within counterpointal exercises the Cantus Firmas can more or less be arbitrary while the voices surrounding the CF provide a harmonious solution to the CF. Although most CF's are written within a diatonic mode, my hunch is that you could perform the same solution finding practice to lines that use chromatic notes. With that in mind I wonder if the choice of CF matters all that much in regards to producing harmonious work, as a harmonious solution set can be found in most instances. I know that historically the CF came from hymn books or older traditional music, but do you think that in theory one could compose a harmonious solution to any finite set of given notes?

[@JacobGran]

Interesting question. One could try, but I think the fluency of the voice leading flows directly from the fluency of the given melody. An arbitrary ordering of notes for a CF would mean that whichever voice carries the CF would most likely be disfluent, and I find that the voice leading of a progression is frequently only as strong as its "weakest link."

[@rodrigopessoa1795]

I'm doing my 4 voice exercises now by the Gallon-Bitsch traité and I'm almost sure it doesn't allow for a voice to stay on the same note throughout more than a compass. I feel it is a more correct approach to strict counterpoint, but I'll check if it allows it for exercises with more voices. Anyway, I wonder what's your take on it, and maybe what would be Mozart's.

[@JacobGran]

My understanding is that we tolerate repeated tones more as the number of voices increases, especially if they occur in an inner voice. But we try not to use them in two voice counterpoint.

[@christian197]

Hi, I am Swiss and I learned from your videos a lot. No Book has given so much advice in fundamental counterpoint tonal voice leading. Your videos showed me how to do it. I am very lucky that I found this cannel. Thanks a lot. I follow your Videos from 1:1 till Roman Numeral Analysis Leading 9. Hear I have a question: On the Example of Thomas Attwood in measure 6 the note D,F,A are chosen. Is there a reason for the Note A. Why do we not use the Note B instead of A. It would give as also a triad. B,D,F. Does it depends on the sound or is there a rule?

[@JacobGran]

Hi Christian, that's a good question. Certainly the note B in the tenor of m.6 would be an option to seriously consider. This choice would have the benefit of avoiding a note repetition in the tenor, so one might argue that it improves the melodic line. There are also no rules about harmonic progression in a counterpoint exercise, so in principle any chord can follow any other chord. However there is one significant negative to using B in the tenor in measure 6: the harmonic interval from B up to F in the alto voice is a diminished fifth, which is traditionally considered to be a forbidden dissonance, even though the augmented fourth is permitted. If we are to use the B diminished triad in first inversion, then the note F needs to be voiced below the B, so that they form an augmented fourth. To my modern ears, these two intervals sound nearly identical, but they were treated differently in strict counterpoint. There might be a way to compose the BDF triad that you mention for that measure, but it would require a voicing such as Bass-D Tenor-D Alto-F Soprano-B, and then we would need to change a lot more of the exercise.

[@armansrsa]

for root position chords Mozart doubles the 3rd of the chord. Is this ok? shouldnt the root be doubled?

[@JacobGran]

I wouldn’t get too focused on the doublings. They are more preferences than rules. Think of it this way: the chordal fifth and root will always form perfect consonances with the bass of a 5/3 triad. So all three upper voices need to use the chordal third every so often in order to avoid parallels or direct motion to a perfect interval. That means we could either use more 6/3 position chords (as Attwood prefers) or double the chordal third of the 5/3 chords sometimes (as Mozart and Fux prefer).

[@armansrsa]

@@JacobGran Thank you

[@Robotron-wd9em]

Sorry about my ignorance but what's the difference between 4 voices 1-1 counterpoint and a normal exercise of figured bass harmonization?

[@JacobGran]

Great question; there are three differences that occur to me. 1) We are thinking about SATB choral voices instead of keyboard voicing of chords; 2) the chords we choose are a free parameter, whereas a figured bass would indicate the chords and implied voice leading (also the CF is not necessarily in the bass voice); and 3) thoroughbass (or "Generalbass" or "partimento") implies a somewhat freer approach to dissonance than strict counterpoint, especially with respect to the free introduction of dissonances from the dominant seventh chord. In some of these videos I begin to include a lot more composition theory from thoroughbass, but I try to make that clear when it comes up. In the 18th century they made a distinction between "freie Satz" ("Free Composition" of real music) and "strenge Satz" ("Strict Composition") and that distinction lines up (imperfectly) with the rules of voice leading as they are taught in thoroughbass and in strict counterpoint.

[@Robotron-wd9em]

Thank you so much, these videos have been my first approach to counterpoint.

[@armansrsa]

When using the G mixolydian CF you provided, do you use F# at the cadence? I ask that because aren't we changing the composition to G major by using F# in the cadence?

[@JacobGran]

Yes, we add the leading tone in every mode that doesn’t naturally have one except Phrygian.

[@juli1403]

Great video and by far the best one out there on this topic! I am just a bit confused why the first inversion of a chord is written by using the roman numeral and then a 6. For example wouldn't you normally assume that a VII⁶ or in that case C⁶ would just be a C-chord with an added 6 which would consist of the notes C,E,G and A?

[@JacobGran]

Great question. In lead sheet notation, which is used very commonly by Jazz, rock, and pop musicians, the "6" after would indeed indicate adding a note above the chord root, just like what you suggest (they'll also often write "+6" or "add6"). In figured bass notation, the number represents an interval above the bass note, not above the root. In this case, a 6th above the bass note E would simply be C. But when dealing with Roman numerals, the "6" represents a third thing, which is the inversion. It is telling us that the chordal third (E) is in the bass. It is confusing to keep straight that figured bass and roman numerals use the same symbols to mean slightly different things. The inversion symbols of Roman numeral analysis are: "5/3" or nothing for root position; "6" or "6/3" for first inversion; and "6/4" for second inversion triads. Those inversion symbols are the same as the figured bass symbols, but figured bass requires the bass line to be written out.

[@willmartin3067]

To me this just looks like four part harmony writing, as opposed to individual counterpoints?

[@JacobGran]

Good point: especially in first species the end result looks the same. What is new at this point, compared to 2- and 3-voice counterpoint, is mainly the harmonic considerations, which is why I spend so much time on that in the video instead of rehashing melodic fluency. But, historically speaking, it would be more accurate to say that textbooks that teach four-part harmony are modeling themselves on this earlier type of exercise, rather than the other way around.

[@armansrsa]

Good day Dr Gran. Why do we not use full triads at the cadence in 4 part? Since we have 4 voices, we could construct a triad as the last chord too couldn't we? Or would imperfect consonances spoil the vibe?

[@JacobGran]

It’s not so much that we’re avoiding imperfect consonance as that we can’t easily arrive at a full triad in the final measure. The bass and alto (or whichever voice has the CF) must both go to ^1, the tenor is free to go to ^3 or ^5, but the soprano usually has ^7 in the penultimate V chord, so the leading tone must resolve to ^1. It is very normal to end on an incomplete I chord got these reasons.

[@armansrsa]

@@JacobGran Ok I see.....but how is it then that the V > I cadence present in so many other styles of music always has a full triad in the end? What exceptions are being made in these cadences? If I play G > C on my guitar, that is a V I cadence as I have always known it but here it seems that this is not a "real" cadence".

[@JacobGran]

@@armansrsa lots of things could be going on that wouldn’t happen in a strict exercise. The tenor cadence may be altered to go ^2 - ^3, the leading tone could be frustrated, or we could have a V7 instead of a V triad. These things happen all the time in free composition (without a Cantus firmus). I cover some of that on the video on the thoroughbass of dominant seventh chords.

[@armansrsa]

@@JacobGran thanks, do you have a website? I should probably be sending you a donation for your time and help... at least to buy you a drink.

[@armansrsa]

@@JacobGran Now that I have learned more I would like to come back to this question that I asked you about why Attwood couldn't end on a full tonic chord in the exercise at the beginning of your video. Instead of leaping down to the 3rd, couldn't the soprano remain as A in the final chord? The alto could go from E to F# and the tenor could have gone from C# to D. This would give us a full triad at the end.

[@armansrsa]

Dr Gran. So 4ths are allowed between middle voices too in 4 part? Remember, in 3 part you said 4ths are only allowed in between top voices.

[@JacobGran]

Yes, fourths are dissonant only when they are formed between any upper part and the bass.

[@HumbleNewMusic]

👍🙂

[@1685Violin]

While Roman Numeral Analysis is useful in this case, I'm not sure this is useful for _writing_ four voice counterpoint as done in the 18th century as RNA did not exist at the time as that was introduced and codified by Gottlieb Weber in the early 1800s.

[@JacobGran]

You’re quite right, RNs are analytical rather than compositional, and although they were sometimes employed in the last few decades of the 18th c., they were not popularized until the 19th. I wanted to introduce them here for practical reasons, mainly so that I can use them to label chords in future videos and the series overall could remain consistent.

[@carlosandres7006]

My thoughts exactly. CPE said it was ‘speculative’. In my own experiencie as a music student this analysis didn’t help much with composing. Learning figured bass and counterpoint changed my whole game

[@CalmMusic-wz7rs]

Roman numerals