Extending the Waterloo & City Line

[@Recessio]

The name "Bakerloo" was a portmanteau of "Baker Street" and "Waterloo". In a similar vein, I think the Waterloo & City should combine "Bank" and "Waterloo" to become the Wankerloo.

[@rjjcms1]

You beat me to it. It's probably just as well this line hasn't been called the Waterbank Line,if only for the abbreviation it would be open to. I do enjoy watching Jago's and Geoff's videos very much even though I haven't used public transport since late 2019 and don't plan on doing so until the Corona madness is entirely over. It's a drag as,on top of ideas for a few excursions into the capital I was toying with,I was thinking of coming to join a demonstration against the invasion of the Ukraine,and perhaps lending a hand to any charitable aid for a day at least if they have a use for me.

[@SynchroScore]

Just be glad nobody's thought too much that Arsenal and Cockfosters are on the same line...

[@markcooper6042]

This made me laugh; thanks!

[@erikthenorviking8251]

"Cityloo" might be open to pis pronunciation...

[@geoffreyraleigh1674]

Thank you. Thank you for that. I'll be giggling all day.

[@domramsey]

If you think about it, the Waterloo & City line is really just a subterranean Emirates Air Line...

[@JagoHazzard]

Controversial!

[@atraindriver]

I think it's fair to say that the W&C carries more people on one rush hour train than the Thames-dangly manages in an entire week, so I think the Drain does actually serve a genuine transport need whereas the Dangly only served a politician's vanity.

[@andyrob3259]

Nah far more useful. At peak periods this one actually gets used by thousands of commuters and isn’t stopped anytime there’s a strong wind. Although with the ‘airline’ at least with a good pair of binoculars at night you can look into peoples windows 🤣🤣

[@domramsey]

@@andyrob3259 I like to imagine a London where the train hadn't been invented and ALL the lines were cable cars. Just think how much fun Bank station would be! 🙃

[@mattpotter8725]

I think that's being harsh, there's no way our current useless PM could ever dangle from the Waterloo and City line!!!

[@spencerhardy8667]

No Yerkes were harmed in the making of this video.

[@rodjones117]

Brilliant!

[@Aviator856]

Yes

[@Aviator856]

The motto of this channel

[@coyotelong4349]

Holy Yerkes, Batman!

[@trevormillar1576]

Was that the Yerkes who had an obsession with chimpanzees and who founded the world famous "primate centre" in Georgia?

[@trueriver1950]

My favourite feature of the W&C is the fact that (just like every other UndergrounD line) inside every carriage is a map of the line. That presumably allows people to keep track of their progress along the line, or to count the remaining stop on their journey.

[@paulketchupwitheverything767]

When a W&C line train gets to the other end of the journey I always make a point of saying to my companion "Shall we get out here?" so that I'm not mistaken for someone that is unfortunate enough to have to use it regularly.

[@fetchstixRHD]

"No, the next stop bro" "But wait, doesn't the train terminate here, there's a brick wall right in fron-" "Nah nah, trust me, we'll still keep going forward, trust me"

[@rynabuns]

I'd have thought you were just being sarcastic

[@peterjohncooper]

For once in a Jago Hazzard video I can say that I've used all the stations on the Waterloo and City Line and threfore do not have to add anything to my bucket list.

[@worldcomicsreview354]

I wanted to ride it just so I could say I had. Walked down a long, hot connecting tunnel with endless stairs going up and down... and found it's closed at weekends.

[@josephturner4047]

Oh, and another thing. When we joined the Common Market as was, there was a suggestion to rename Waterloo station because, you know. A survey was taken amongst railway staff for suggestions for a new name. It was quietly dropped when the name that topped the list was Trafalgar.

[@stevenjlovelace]

I wonder if the French had a similar conversation about Austerlitz Station. Probably not.

[@andyrob3259]

@@stevenjlovelace self reflection and having an inner monologue is not the French way.

[@acciid]

Getting up in arms and going on strike is more the French way. Our railway workers wouldn't, oh right. Hmm.

[@TalesOfWar]

@@acciid At least our striking rail workers don't start brawls with firefighters lol.

[@franciskolarik6802]

@@TalesOfWar They aren't as big as the football supporters' union, they'd never cross that line.

[@evan]

If you need to get between the two stations it does what you want the most efficiently! Else not so much, but I do love it

[@christopherflack7629]

Evan!

[@EdMcF1]

was hoping I'd hear that the mainline got to its terminus, asked for an extension and then proclaimed 'Waterloo, couldn't escape if I wanted to!'.

[@MervynPartin]

It would have cost too much money, money, money!

[@johnenfield1930]

So the L&SWR met its Waterloo .....

[@hakc97again]

@@MervynPartin Loadsa, loadsa, loadsa

[@TheWolfHowling]

The W&C is basically a LSWR shuttle service that would never be built in the 21st century. Likely more trouble than its worth to try and work it into an extended line

[@highpath4776]

Its almost the equivalent of the LSWR South West Branches - To Seaton, Lyme Regis and so on.

[@danieleyre8913]

Yeah it’s only got short 4 car platforms and if it was built today it would probably be as a people-mover on a monorail or something. It’s only part of the underground because of de-nationalisation and its rolling stock. It’s less like a proper tube line than thameslink.

[@MrSmith1984]

If a London to Bournemouth Line (via Basingstoke, Winchester & Southampton) was built now, it would have actually terminated in the City rather than get cut short to Waterloo.

[@highpath4776]

@@MrSmith1984The obvious would be to swing into Cannon Street

[@MrSmith1984]

@@highpath4776 Yep, Bank/Cannon Street/Monument (all 3 would have been consolidated into 1 station under these circumstances) would be the best location to terminate said line...unless it got extended to Liverpool Street of course.

[@iankemp1131]

The W&C was the second deep-level tube and was a pioneer in several ways, e.g. first multiple-unit tube trains rather than loco-hauled. The shunting loco at 1:55 was converted from one of the original units (compare the picture at 1:42) so is hugely historic. Although the LSWR never got to the City themselves, this probably helped them, as they were able to build the massive terminus at Waterloo and build up huge suburban and long-distance traffic without the vast expense of building wide bridges across the Thames and a large station on expensive land in the City. Note that Charing Cross, Cannon Street, Holborn Viaduct, Blackfriars and Fenchurch Street were all relatively compact. London Bridge is sprawling but again is south of the river, while Liverpool Street is on the outer edge of the City where land was a bit cheaper.

[@caw25sha]

The line does it's job as a pseudo extension into the City. However, if we are doing an Underground Wotif, how about the South London Circle, and also another circle via Liverpool St, Kings Cross and the other terminii back round to Waterloo, all in a huge figure-of-eight pattern. Or maybe even an infinity symbol.

[@alexgreenwood3179]

This. I'll be going to York by train later this year from the South, and annoyingly have meander the tube with luggage from Waterloo to King's Cross, which ain't fun. I've now seen an option of using the Bakerloo to elephant and Castle, and just switch to using Thames link to get off at St Pancreas as its far less hassle

[@nigelkthomas9501]

@@alexgreenwood3179 I take it you’re not aware of the cross platform interchange at Oxford Circus? Take the Bakerloo line from Waterloo and change there on to the Victoria line. The Victoria line splits and runs on the outside faces of the two island platforms. Trains run in the same direction either side of the two sets of platforms, so it possible to do the same thing in the southbound direction as well.

[@alexgreenwood3179]

@@nigelkthomas9501 no wasn't aware of that! Think I've only used Oxford circus a couple of times and that was using the central line *shudders*. Haven't had much need to use the Victoria line, trips to London I've tended to need the DLR, Northern, District and piccadilly.

[@alexgreenwood3179]

Also, I hope Cross rail 2 has a chance in getting built. Getting to stop at Clapham Junction (why does this interchange have no tube links? I mean come on!) and up to King's Cross would also make life easier going South to North East. I can get a direct train to Birmingham on the West Coast route, but not east 🙁

[@nigelkthomas9501]

@@alexgreenwood3179 Try it. I think you’ll find it very convenient!

[@HomemadeBrownies1]

This is going to be a lovely Friday night treat!

[@thomasburke2683]

Jack Blackmore, Or even a Friday Wright treat!

[@SirBunghole]

The Drain use to be part of my daily commute. Used it when they switched over from the wood panelled carriages to the more modern ones in the 90s. I found it to be very claustrophobic.

[@phaasch]

...Not to mention with that distinctive smell of it's very own! I don't remember the carriages being wood panelled, but I do remember the characteristic pairs of ventilators at each end of the carriages, with "SOUTHERN" and "RAILWAY" etched into them.

[@SirBunghole]

@@phaasch My memory contains lots of wood and very dim lighting. I was relieved when the new stock came.

[@lesleyb5591]

I used the Waterloo and City line regularly about 15 years ago when I was working near the South Bank. I would arrive into London at Fenchurch Street and then walk to Bank. The best thing was that I would be travelling the opposite direction to most people. The train would pull into Bank and when the doors were opened people would more or less fall out as they were so tightly packed. Then about 3 of us would get on for the journey back to Waterloo so we'd have plenty of room.

[@MrSmith1984]

There is a lot of sense in extending the line to Liverpool Street, mainly because the connections between Liverpool Street & Waterloo are quite poor. It would be even better to connect the W&C with the Northern City Line however...

[@keithorchard3137]

One of the strangest things at Waterloo was the..LOO, which stood on a raised platform with steps leading up to the door and looked more like a temple than a toilet ! This was to put it above the water table so that it could be flushed ! Another was a door in a wall at the Waterloo sidings which, due to bomb damage in WW2, was just a wall with the door remaining intact but with nothing either side of it !

[@oludotunjohnshowemimo434]

It provides a quick and convenient connection between Waterloo and Bank/Monument for workers in the City. Eases the pressure off the Charing Cross and Bank/Monument branches of the Northerl line and connects both branches.

[@jussidjachenko9483]

Fun fact, it actually passes directly underneath blackfriars station, which they should build an interchange for

[@joegrey9807]

It's one of those links that looks sensible until you actually work out who would benefit from it. Existing lines cover most journeys already. Those that aren't covered aren't really helped by a station at Blackfriars.

[@Maino88]

As a daily user of the Drain I'm fine with it continuing as a shuttle. BUT, if it were to be extended, the logical route should be to look at areas where there are basically no tube connections. So either you could run an extension down through Walworth, Camberwell, Herne Hill/Dulwich and half two termini at Crystal Palace/Bromley and at Streatham. The line as it is probably couldn't handle much more capacity than that. Is it worth extending past Bank to Liverpool St to link it with Elizabeth Line? Probably not. But you could construct a subterranean walkway to link the two stations. As the crow-flies it is only 600m between the two, and a walkway tunnel is definitely going to be much more cost effective than a full on extension.

[@whywhy6055]

I did a few drawings on Google Earth regarding what kind of fantasy extensions the London transport network could have if money was not an issue. One of the ones is the Waterloo and City line taking over the Northern City line to Alexandra Palace and extending it southwards to Chessington South.

[@HomemadeBrownies1]

That would be a great line!

[@TheMarlinspike]

Share :)

[@peabody1976]

This is the one that most gets my attention. My guess is that the Elizabeth Line is now in the way of any tunnel between Bank and Moorgate; Moorgate's NC platorms may have to be rebuilt to allow the connection.

[@Julius_Hardware]

Try Nimby Rails (available on Steam), its ideal for this sort of thing

[@whywhy6055]

@@Julius_Hardware i’ve looked at it, and I might download it. Hope they build one for bus routes too.

[@robertadamson7894]

The extension that Bank needs is of the DLR.directly to Farringdon for interchange with the western Elizabeth line and northern Thameslink. This is the best way of relieving the Central line west of Bank. The Northern line north of Bank would also be relieved. If the DLR then links Farringdon to Euston, the Northern line would be further relieved (and this works well with the move of the Northern line to separated branches - Edgware branch people wanting Bank would stay on to Euston and take the DLR, so they would not be overloading the Barnet-Bank branch at Camden Town). Euston - Farringdon direct would release existing Euston Square - St Pancras capacity needed for HS1 - HS2 transfers (so be wary of another Euston - St Pancras link unless it is built specifically for people at the furthest end of HS2 trains). Because of the relief this would give the Northern line, some funding should come from the City, plus a lesser amount from Canary Wharf Group for the convenience of a Euston - Canary Wharf service. Waterloo needs two things. First a shuttle tube to High Holborn and Euston. With this in place, Crossrail 2 from Victoria can connect Waterloo to Farringdon, Old Street, Hoxton, Homerton, Leyton, Leytonstone and take over the line to Epping (even continuing toward housing south of Harlow). Serving Old Street would relieve the Great Northern. Alternate CR2 trains serving Leytonstone would give much-needed relief to the Central and Elizabeth lines between Stratford and Liverpool Street. (Serving Homerton would fit with the NIC comments on CR2). The proximity of Chancery Lane's platforms to Holborn's planned eastern entrance means that, from the platforms of the new shuttle, people would have a choice of exits - via Holborn or Chancery Lane. And people wanting St Paul's would do so from Chancery Lane's platform, (so Holborn's platform is not made more congested).

[@fosterfuchs]

I hope the drivers of the trains get to switch lines every so often. I imagine just driving between Waterloo and Bank gets old after a while.

[@jonathanlanglois2742]

Strangely reminiscent of the Yellow line in Montreal between Berri-UQAM and Longueil. There's been plans to extend the line for decades, but right now, it is likely that the planned Taschereau REM will end up taking over the planned alignment for the yellow extension.

[@davidkeenan9522]

I often wonder why, when the Docklands Light Rail was extended to Bank, it wasn't connected to the W&C then.

[@chrisadye1590]

Waterloo Station platforms are too short and it's not feasible to extend them, and the tunnels are too small for DLR trains. Frankly if you want to take the DLR to Waterloo you would be better doing it as a new build rather than having to almost completely rebuild the W&C

[@Cowman9791]

@@chrisadye1590 Absolutely, and that point, if the Waterloo & City line was at that point a mere duplication offering very little advantage, they would have probably decided on cutbacks at that point, perhaps making it peak hours only as the DLR would be more than adequate off-peak.

[@ExplorerGinge]

I've agree that the extention of the tunnels from Bank to Moorgate, to then run Waterloo to Finsbury Park via the Northen City Line, would create a pretty great new line route and open up useful new connections

[@JelMain]

Your description of the Waterloo and City reminds me of a radio travel service which recently announced trains would not be stopping at Victoria.

[@gpan62]

The last time I used the Waterloo line, during one of my visits to the UK, I missed the tap in, which are on the walls, possibly because of people blocked it as they walked. It got sorted out, but beware, especially tourists.

[@Conan500]

Chap at 9:11 slowing to “didn’t want that train anyway” pace!

[@johnrider5701]

I rode on the Waterloo and city line back in the 60s and 70s with my dad and i loved it because it's rolling stock was quirky and different from the other lines.

[@ianmoseley9910]

My recollection of the old Shoreditch Station is that there was nothing more than a pile of sand between the end of the track and the tracks into Liverpool Street. An older colleague claimed that during WW2 theyran trains out of Liverpool Street down that line and on to the south coast.

[@henrybest4057]

In the 19th century, the SECR had running rights into Bishopsgate/Liverpool Street over that line, so those WWII movements were likely to have happened.

[@PerCPH2200]

According to what I can see in the London Railway Atlas, the junction was not finally severed until 1966.

[@raakone]

Yup, there were mainline trains running from Liverpool down to Brighton all the way until 1966, but the electrification for the LU was never extended north beyond Shoreditch.

[@alejandrayalanbowman367]

In 1966/7 I was in the RAF and used to do urgent jobs at the weekend. I had a girlfriend who lived at Leigh-on-Sea so I would often stay overnight at the Union Jack Club which was near Waterloo and I would take the W&C up to Bank and then catch a train from Fenchurch St. Useful little line, the W&C.

[@MetroTitanD78]

Crazy to think that the Waterloo and City Line has only ever had 3 types of rolling stock on it throughout its entire history. Also between 1985 & 1987 double ended D stock worked the East London Line while the A stock was away being modified.

[@AlbertGMag]

Madrid has a very similar thing with the Ópera - Príncipe Pío “R” line. It’s never been a proper line and it’s called just a “branch”. I guess that’s why I was never too surprised as people seem by this odd thing! Thanks for the video! Keep it up!

[@MARTIN-jg6gn]

The Waterloo and city line should be extended from bank all the way to Epsom and Hampton court in the south. Plus south London hasn’t got enough tube lines

[@mikehindson-evans159]

Thank you for a fascinating stroll through a century of "what-if" planning and proposing. Much appreciated as a long-time user of "The Drain".

[@henrybest4057]

Many years ago, when Acton Works was still a works and not a museum, they held 'Open Days'. I was at one open day when I mentioned to a couple of LT employees that I thought the W&C should be joined to the Northern City line. (I'd not heard that it had previously been suggested). They immediately took some maps out of a briefcase and started looking through them to see if it was possible!!!

[@eugenemurray2940]

I believe that Acton REW still does some engineering...

[@lotsofspots]

The new escalators for the Crossrail link between Moorgate and Liverpool Street lie directly in the way of extending the NCL past Moorgate, so it shall now never be.

[@henrybest4057]

@@lotsofspots That doesn't preclude diverting the NCL before the current Moorgate platforms to avoid the obstacle. It would, admittedly, add to the cost.

[@mst4309]

I’ve brainstormed this so many times. Southwest London looks enticing

[@Olleetheowl]

So.. the fight to get their terminus into London was the L.S.W.R/s “Waterloo”

[@TalesOfWar]

Have your thumb up and get out! lol

[@henrybest4057]

ABBAowt as far as they got on the surface. I'll get my coat...

[@Olleetheowl]

@@henrybest4057 😂

[@AaronOfMpls]

They said Gimme Gimme Gimme a city terminus, but Money Money Money was a problem

[@phil_p]

I work at the bottom end of Queen Victoria street, near Blackfriars. In the basement, and even the lower-ground floor, you can clearly hear the w&c trains running in their tunnels.

[@kr6302]

I'm a major nerd for train/tube videos. I consider taking the tube in London, an attraction by itself. Especially transferring between different lines and discovering new stops. With such connectivity it's impossible to get bored in London.

[@LolBot720]

The question I always have about proposals to extend the W&C is why are we fixing something that ain't broke? The proposals don't sound like they're about meeting demand in an efficient way, so much as somebody just deciding that the line could be better used for something else and then coming up with an idea for what that might be after the fact. It serves its purpose and it does an acceptable job of meeting that purpose. Leave the poor thing alone.

[@C2K777]

Simple my dear Jombers. Those with their nose in the trough must be constantly fed. Whether something makes money, benefits it's customers or even makes logical sense is normally some way down the list of priorities.

[@zForce4]

It isn’t the W&C that’s broke, it’s the northern city / east London line / aldwych branch that needs fixing

[@C2K777]

@@zForce4 I mean the entire TfL shabang is broken as it happens 😂

[@atraindriver]

The problem, Jombers, is that too many people with power (or who want power) really seem to believe that the entire British railway system (including LUL) is actually a 12 inch to the foot train set for them to play with. Most of Britain's railways would do pretty well if only those people would just leave them alone, but they have to interfere...

[@andyrob3259]

100%. Often it’s an attempt by those with other agendas to use one project to siphon off money to another pet project by presenting this as an upgrade whilst getting funding for something that might not have got funding.

[@nkiey]

A missed opportunity - you are the water to my loo and city...

[@Daniel-jm5hd]

I used the W&C line today as part of my journey home. Love the idea of combining it with the DLR, preferably from Stratford so avoiding the change at Canning Town. The loop from Liverpool Street via New Cross also sounds good.

[@Swaggerlot]

Used it many times in the past, Liverpool Street to Bank, Bank to Waterloo, then on to Twickenham or later Woking to see my Gran. Short and sweet!

[@roystudds1944]

Thanks for this enlightening video Jago. My, what a fascinating response you had in the comments. Yes, I have read them all. Many laughs along the way. Thoroughly entertaining. Thanks everyone for brightening an otherwise dull Sunday. Roy.

[@rachelcarre9468]

As much as I do enjoy your delightful and informative videos Mr H, especially the architecture ones, I also love them because you can people watch. 😀

[@infinitemusic1017]

for some reason i have been addicted to the w & c line since I was 2 years old and have also dreamed of it going above ground, 15 now and living in another country.

[@dodgydruid]

Any chance of a video about the days where trains on the SR had overhead wires instead of third rails? Maybe a mention of Hither Green and some of the coal yards in Kent that also had overhead wires? I remember back in the 70's where Hither Green had its gantries still up with all their overhead warning signs aplenty but the wires were gone leaving the poor HA classes 3 of in the forgotten part of the fuel lane at Hither Green TMD behind the signal box there. I remember fondly one lovely day going into work with me father at HG and being allowed to clamber all around the 3 HA's, such a shame all but one gone :(

[@darrengomes2203]

Extending the Drain from Bank has pretty much been off the table since the 1950s, when the original Travolator was installed (now replaced by another brand of moving walkway), as the buffer stop is immediately in front of the platform exit/entrance and the foot of the moving walkway and staggered stairs/subway.

[@chrismatthews3606]

It seems that, ultimately, any extension would involve pouring money down The Drain.

[@ClydebridgeStation]

According to a book I have from 1990, London's Underground, LT published plans in 1949, showing proposed routes and extensions to the Tube. Route C was built fully, and became the Victoria line. Route H was a similar plan to the 1950s proposal you mentioned, to extend the Aldwych branch to Waterloo via the W&C. But, unlike the 1950s plan, the 1949 plan didn't envisage extending beyond waterloo.

[@ZGryphon]

I'll always wonder why that guy at 9:11 decided to run for all of nine steps, then go back to walking. Clearly not to catch the train, since there was an open door right next to him when he started...

[@nativenewlondoner]

The train is packed full

[@paintedpilgrim]

I do think it would make sense to extend to the Northern City Line and perhaps extend southward towards Clapham Junction (via Lambeth North and Vauxhall) before perhaps taking over a branch route further Southwest-ward not selected by Crossrail 2. But again any discussion would bring up the ongoing age old issue of "What to do about Bank station". As the temporary fixes made after the damage of WW2 are still being used today. There is also the debate about the remaining vaults of St Mary Woolnoth and the Bank of England vaults as the platforms of the W&C line at Bank are relatively shallow.

[@JamesBrown-zu8iv]

Thank you! Just like MY PLAN was in years ago! First instance should preferably anything whatever it suits enough purposes. @Paintedpilgrim, I'm glad you're on the topic(!).👍👏

[@paintedpilgrim]

@@JamesBrown-zu8iv I think its relatively clear where and which route any Northern extension should take, in the first place Finsbury Park (and then possibly a rehash part of the old Northern Heights plan to Alexandra Palace) with perhaps 3/4 of the 5 intermediate stops (I know the site of one is now heavily built over) Its the Southern routes that interest me, Cross Rail 2 have reserved rights along the existing routes to Chessington South, Epsom, Hampton Court and Shepperton. If they narrowed down the chosen route for CR2 then it would be easier to align any W&C extension.....my current idea is to take over the branch lines to either Hampton Court or Chessington South leaving through routes to Cross Rail - like they have on the Elizabeth Line But then there would also be the debate over a new name, since it wouldn't just be Waterloo and City anymore, if the Northern end is extended to Alexandra Palace and it took over the Hampton Court branch I'd argue for it to be called the Palaces Line....

[@FannyLerouxTime]

I can't wait to see the extended version of this video! No laughs? Ok, I'll see myself out...

[@blackfrieza349]

hah

[@FannyLerouxTime]

@@blackfrieza349 Well, it may have taken 2 years, but I'm glad this amused someone!

[@dodgydruid]

There was a link between Shoreditch and Liverpool St, it was primarily used to transfer goods from Bishopsgate depot to the southern lines by running a train into the left most platform of Liverpool St unhooking engine and the southern engine would wander in with a pilot to yank the goods train to where it was going to and sometimes just dropped off at New Cross Gate's yard or run down to New Cross and then back up if it was headed towards Deptford Wharf (yes there was a branch line off the ELR to Deptford docks) or if the train was further afield then off to Hither Green for marshalling. Back in the day when Shoreditch was where it was, you could if on the right train actually see the small portal from the train leaving Liverpool St and spot Shoreditch station through the portal. I remember my father mentioning that BR did consider reinstating the link but Liverpool St is seriously congested during much of the day and there just was not the space for more trains coming in from the ELR.

[@highpath4776]

But with CR taking away some of the Eastern Stoppers, that would have given space, actually running Crossrail through the East London would have fitted ?

[@PlanetoftheDeaf]

Expanding the W&C tunnels to take mainline trains would be massively expensive and difficult, the size increase being far greater than happened when the City and South London tunnels were expanded. The stations are quite short too, I'm not sure if longer trains could be used, but the W&C trains are half the length of those on the Central Line for example

[@PtolemyJones]

Waterloo station is one of a handful of places I remember from my short vacation in London, and I really thought it something special. There was (is?) a hotel right by it for the military and veterans. A pleasant stay.

[@1963TOMB]

The Union Jack Club is the name of this this hotel

[@PtolemyJones]

@@1963TOMB Thank you. Been decades since I stayed there. So enjoyed my two weeks or so in London.

[@Julia_and_the_City]

One more proposal for a Waterloo & City Line extension that I know of was to convert it to run DLR-trains and extend the Bank branch of the DLR from Bank to Waterloo. This was in the white paper about future DLR extensions, some 10 years back if I remember correctly. The main benefit of this is that it would resolve capacity problems at Bank, as more high-capacity turning platforms at Waterloo could be installed. In the future, the DLR could then branch out from Waterloo, and take over some mainline rail lines into southwest London. The paper was quick to mention though that this conversion by itself wouldn't add any new stations to the existing network, that said extension into southeast London was way beyond the scope of what's currently happening, and the conversion of the Waterloo tunnels to fit DLR-trains was prohibitively expensive. Future extensions to the DLR would likely strain the low-capacity DLR trains immediately along such a heavily used route. An extra transfer station at Blackfriars made the business case even worse, incressing travel time between Waterloo and Bank for very little benefit. But still, it's a fun idea to toy with what could have been had the W&C joined up with DLR, and the DLR had finally entered west London.

[@SmokeyBCN]

I don't think DLR trains would even fit in the W&C tube

[@pacificostudios]

Incidentally, the history of the WC parallels the PATH trains between New York and New Jersey. When originally proposed, the purpose of the Hudson & Manhattan was to connect various mainline railroad termini along the waterfront, and Manhattan Transfer station along the Pennsylvania R.R. mainline to Philadelphia and points south and west, with the main financial district in Manhattan and points uptown, thus eventually replacing, the Hudson River ferries. It was never focused on connecting well with the New York city subway, or connecting New York city with the New Jersey waterfront.

[@romainbluche9722]

OMG! I lived at Essex road station and kept wondering why this station was not part of the tube. Linking Islington to Shoreditch would be such a good move

[@KiLLJoYYouTube]

The Waterloo and City line is actually quite elegant. I like it. It solves all the problems of a new tube line without being a new tube line.

[@fuzzylon]

It might be interesting to see the statistics of what passengers do when they get to Bank. I suspect many of them work in walking distance and those that don't change trains there and disperse in all directions. It might be interesting to consider an extension from Waterloo to Clapham Junction where some passengers might interconnect with trains coming in to and out of Victoria to the south coast, but that would be a whole other story. I wonder if there would be a video in why Clapham Junction is still not on the tube network although it is one of the most important mainline stations in London?

[@peterjansen7929]

If you are at Bank, to get on a train from Victoria to the south coast you could take the Northern Line and change at Balham. Alternatively, you could just go from Monument to Victoria! For some destinations, you would probably do better to take a train out of London Bridge instead of Victoria. Who would build a new tunnel from Waterloo to Clapham Junction (where all trains from Waterloo go anyway), to modern standards, with an emergency evacuation platform along the whole length, just to extend something with such low capacity, with four carriages each and deep tube loading gauge?

[@birdbrain4445]

I do sometimes wonder about the historical proposal to join it with the Northern City Line (perhaps with the addition of a stop at Blackfriars.) I do think a line like that would be very useful indeed; I'd certainly use it more than I do either of the lines that would have made it up. It would not have been easy, engineering-wise but I do think it would have been worthwhile. It's creative to me too, connecting these two short, funny lines that are/were oddities on the Tube map. But, oh well. The proposal to join it with the East London Line is an interesting one too; a link south with Liverpool Street is a glaring omission from the present day network as you point out. With hindsight I'm less in favour of this just because the East London Line has since been made into something a lot greater than it once was, and I'm not sure I would take this over what we ended up getting - but at the time I think this would have been a pretty great idea. But again, oh well. And honestly, the ending is pertinent here. I think the W&C is very much fine as it is ultimately - and thousands of commuters seem just fine with it too. All of these plans would require so much work and well, one has to wonder how necessary they ultimately are. The W&C ain't broke, so don't fix it, basically. Great video!

[@pacificostudios]

Connecting Finsbury Park with Waterloo seems like that would have been a good idea, not only for Londoners, but facilitating transfers from the East Coast Mainline to the South West Mainline, and even the routes to Kent. On the other hand, what about installing CBTC, upping train frequency rather than expanding the stations, and extending SOUTH of Waterloo? Where could the line go? The only reason direction is, I think, toward Vauxhall, with an intermediate stop near the waterfront. The real trouble with the WC (pun intended) is that there are already three separate Tube lines running southerly from Waterloo.

[@kavomix]

Extend it direct to Victoria and then you have quite a handy interchange line, particularly when either mainline station has issues or are closed for engineering works.

[@pacificostudios]

​@@kavomix - That would definitely make a journey between the two stations less circuitous. The present trip requires a transfer at Green Park, or a walk across the Thames. It strikes me, however, that most destinations served by Waterloo are generally reached via Paddington, while the Victoria routes go to Sussex and Kent, including Gatwick Airport. A Waterloo-Victoria-Paddington route, via Victoria Street (with a station in central Westminster), Hyde Park Corner station and Marble Arch station would tie together many paralleling lines and bypass the long run on the Circle line through South Kensington. It would also facilitate transfers between Gatwick and Heathrow. Construction of that route could even use parts of Hyde and Green Parks for tunnel access, rather than infringing on road traffic. What do you think?

[@kavomix]

@@pacificostudios that in itself is an even better extension. Staying within zone 1 entirely and linking mainline stations where there are often transfer and removing traffic from the Victoria, Bakerloo and Circle. Now, how do we start a committee to get this actioned 😁

[@pacificostudios]

@@kavomix - Jago could make another video about extending the WC.

[@peterjansen7929]

@@pacificostudios Bank to Marble Arch? Take the Central Line! Bank to Paddington? Northern Line to Moorgate, Elizabeth Line from there! Bank to Hyde Park Corner? 1. Who wants to go THERE? 2. Cental Line to Holborn, Piccadilly Line from there. A faster route from Victoria to Paddington might make some sense, probably not enough to justify the cost. But adding the W&C to such a route seems like a strangely contrived idea to me. And going via Hyde Park Corner instead of Knightsbridge would probably reduce the case for the line even further. But if you are billionaire philantropists who want to improve transport in London, why not take one long suburban line into Victoria to a lower level, perhaps from as far south as Wandsworth Common, then extend it to Knightsbridge, Marble Arch, Edgware Road, Lords (should be reopened anyway), the Zoo, Camden Town, and on to Finsbury Park with two intermediate stations?

[@MrGreatplum]

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it! The Drain is a wonderful quirk that actually works!

[@raakone]

I read somewhere the W and C has some unusual curves, the 92s on this line have slightly different couplers from their Central Line cousins as a result. They would have to have customized stock had this ended up an extension of either the Bakerloo or Picadilly line....or if that East London Line plan happened. Also, yes, there were Liverpool street trains that ran south on the East London line, but only mainline (the electrification never extended up to Liverpool), until 1966 there was limited Liverpool Street to BRIGHTON service over this route.

[@1963TOMB]

Not sure above that one: the 92TS trains as originally left the factory in Derby all had the same 'Autocouplers': they may have been changed since that time. I was a member of the electrical design team in Derby for these trains before going down to London to work on the Central Line upgrade project. There are some tight curves on the Central Line around the vaults at Bank and between White City and Sheperds Bush. In fact I recall that the curves between White City and Shepherds Bush had to be chamfered and the cables moved so that the new 92TS train could go around the corners as they had a different dynamic gauge than the replaced trains. I can't recall any such works having to be carried on the Waterloo and City Line.

[@johnmurrell3175]

Almost not connected but the Tunnel between Waterloo & Bank is the longest on the underground with no emergency exit so a long walk if a train failed in the middle. The length of the walk was part of the reason for having the 4 mini-battery locos Walter, Loo Anne Kitty (get it - names thanks to Alf Arnold who appears in this video) . Interesting Locos as the battery packs were removed, by fork lift to be recharged and replaced by charged ones so the locomotives could work 24 / 7.

[@zoviet100]

Correctly predicted ‘you are the Bank to my Waterloo’ 👍

[@ricky6565]

Interesting video. I would like to add that the 1965 "A Railway Plan for London" (A really interesting paper if you're interested in London Underground history) mentioned that "the possibility of extending the Waterloo & City Line northwards to Liverpool Street has been examined, but found to be physically impracticable". With the construction of DLR and Elizabeth line the situation is probably worse now. Consequently, W&C will probably never be extended.

[@peterclyons]

I am surprised, no mention of this line's nickname, "The Drain", nor the fact that for yearz it ran non standard rolling stock, the carriages were narrower and passangers were squashed in like sardines, but as it was only for one stop who cared?

[@michellebell5092]

The W&C is fine as it is, always has been. I used to use in the days that we used to queue along the platform in lines from markers on the platform edge.

[@Tjeran]

Thanks for more maps in this video.

[@ianhosier4042]

I wonder if they could fit an intermediate station at Blackfriars? With Thameslink at Blackfriars that would dramatically increase usage.

[@mattevans4377]

It's either increase the size of the tunnels, or 4th rail the SWR London Metro and Suburban lines. This is because Waterloo 'overground' is already at or near capacity, and running short distance trains underground to Bank would free up capacity at the station.

[@iankemp1131]

Not a bad idea. It might not be necessary to convert the above-ground lines to 4th rail; they could simply use earth return through the running rails as at present. But the train capacity would be much lower (tube size and short), and much of the congestion round Waterloo seems to be round the approaches rather than the station itself. That's the standard excuse given for not stopping rush-hour long-distance trains at Clapham Junction which would be incredibly useful to people working in West London (e.g. Putney, Brentford) or Victoria/West End.

[@SiVlog1989]

Probably the most practical option for extending the Waterloo and City these days is extending beyond Waterloo, as the tunnelling area at Bank has become congested by the tunnels to the DLR

[@paulhaynes8045]

Just how many JH videos are there?!! Several weeks into my attempt to binge-watch all of them, new (to me) ones are still popping up! But I'm not complaining - long may it continue. And this one was especially enjoyable, combining, as it does, two of my favourite Tube line discussions - the W&C and the full-sized tube (small 't') to Moorgate. There are so many questions about both - even more than covered in this fine video! My take on this (and the Aldwych conundrum) is that we need to be aware of the human desire to tie up loose ends and make things neater. As you say in the video, what really matters with any of these schemes is - what's the reason/need for this extension? I suspect most of these plans are basically motivated by the desire to tidy things up. The Aldwych 'extension' was always annoying, and, even though it's no longer on the map, is STILL annoying. But no one has ever come up with a real need to reopen it or extend it. The closest we came was with the original plan for the Fleet line, but, even there, what really was the point of including the old Aldwych station - just because it was there? Ditto with the W&C. It was built to do a specific job, and it does it well, why try to do anything else with it, just because it's an annoyingly short line?! What really itches my latent OCD about the W&C is why it wasn't 'just' an extension of the suburban lines into Waterloo in the first place. OK, there's the expense of boring full-sized tunnels and, presumably, a much bigger station at Bank, but how much more useful would that have been? Plus, it would have made linking it up to the Moorgate line (if required!) much more feasible. But it wasn't done that way, so we have to live with it... As for the full-sized bit of the old Northern Line, I feel that this was the only 'anomaly' on the Tube map that really should have been further developed - and in a sense, it has been. I'd rather have seen it included as a part of a North-South cross-London full-sized tube, but for the people that use it daily, it probably is perfectly useful as it is. I've often wondered what the long-term effect of the Moorgate Disaster had on plans for this line - is it subconsciously better 'out of sight, out of mind', so that no one is inclined to think about a possible different use for it?

[@thegrowl2210]

The drain trains look remarkably shiny and well kept. I suppose it's an advantage of that underground glow.

[@londonundergroundfan1563]

Here is my own unrealistic proposal: Link the W&C with the DLR at Bank, put an intermediate station at Blackfriars and there you have a brilliantly useful link. If there is more cash lying around maybe extend the line even further to Victoria with another intermediate station around MI5/Lambeth Bridge. Maximum interchange potential!

[@iankemp1131]

A Victoria-Waterloo-Bank-Liverpool Street line sounds quite a neat idea. Unfortunately the W&C station at Waterloo faces completely the wrong way, a fact I'd never realised until seeing Jago's map.

[@richardread4229]

Logic would say extend DLR at Bank to incorporate the drain but of course the tunnel size is an issue.

[@iankemp1131]

The tricky question with all these ideas is what new journey opportunities they provide and for how many people - a question that apparently wasn't asked with the Emirates Air Line. DLR to Waterloo looks obvious on a map, but the Jubilee Line already does it direct or with one change. The Drain does a good job as an intensive rush hour shuttle; off peak its biggest use is probably as a link between Waterloo and Liverpool Street. Rather like Cannon Street main line station which sees little demand off peak. Victoria to Bank would be quicker, but from most originating stations you can go to London Bridge instead direct (especially at peak hours) or with one change, so how many would actually use it?

[@bobuk5722]

Hi Jago, I have an idea for some new videos. As you mentioned the ground under central London is full of all sorts of utilities, tube lines, secret passages etc. and it makes planning the route of an extension of any underground line increasingly tricky. Maybe you could do a series on where such problems have been inventively overcome? Or not, as may be the case! The physical constraints in addition to the corporate wheeler dealing. Thanks for this video, I have fond (!) memories of travelling on the 'rattle bang' as it was once known.

[@Leonard_Smith]

I think to get as much content as you did from such meagre material does you credit!

[@martyn6792]

I watch these occasionally and in general find them very interesting.

[@capcompass9298]

The rumour I heard in the 80s, is that the Bank of England vaults stand in the direct route and it's too expensive to go round and the bank forbade going under (the vault, I mean).

[@capcompass9298]

Any chance of that being true?

[@Colt45hatchback]

Ghostie a train into the end and see if money falls out? 😂

[@favesongslist]

This makes me want to go on the Waterloo and City line next time I can get to London. A line of the Tube I have never been on.

[@richardeyers322]

near the cut/lower marsh,theres a big open space where i think they lower/lift the trains up,down because u think thats where the rail tracks are

[@caw25sha]

Ever since I've been watching Geoff Marshall's channel I've been hoping he'd have the opportunity to film a lowering or lifting but it hasn't happened yet.

[@MarkWaller2]

That's right: it's now the only way to get trains onto and out of the Waterloo & City line. There used to be a big lift (known as the "Armstrong Lift") on the other side of Waterloo station, but that was taken out when the Eurostar terminal at Waterloo was built.

[@edwardjones3191]

Your last comment 'You are the Bank to my Waterloo' is so good I can only assume you came up with it first and the video second. 😂 Great video mate!

[@iankemp1131]

Travelling over the years between Cambridge/Herts and Portsmouth/Southampton I've much regretted that the W&C didn't extend to Liverpool Street. In fact I now take the Victoria Line from Tottenham Hale and do the cross-platform interchange to the Bakerloo at Oxford Circus rather than go into Liv St. The W&C works pretty well as a self-contained shuttle though and the platform lengths are short. One idea might have been a loop to Fenchurch St, Liverpool St and Moorgate, like to one in Liverpool itself, giving several useful mainline and suburban connections. Nowadays it might even include the curiously isolated Shoreditch High Street. But value for money? Probably not.

[@lapiswake6583]

It's a nice little line. I need to go do it from Waterloo to Bank, hopefully when it's less busy than it was when I did it the other way round

[@Flange-lw9sp]

Would love to see the W&C line extended to Victoria in the West, and Shoreditch in the East, after stopping at Liverpool Street. I think you would be shocked by how many passengers who travel in to LS on the main lines have to get the Central Line one stop before the long transfer to the W&C line, as it’s platform is clearly down Queen Victoria street and no where near Bank! It should have always gone to Liverpool Street rather than Bank. A stop at Blackfriars would also be handy. A pipe dream would be to create a second spur using the old Holborn to the Stand line, which would carry on to Euston, making a fast link of Euston, Holborn and Waterloo, just in time for the new high speed lines coming into Euston, and the subsequent extra capacity on the tube station that needs to be addressed.

[@trickygoose2]

I've always assumed that the Waterloo and City line exists so that Surrey stockbrokers don't clog up the West End stations and spoil things for tourists.

[@anthonyholroyd5359]

Personally I'd favour the first plan (Metropolitan & GNR) mixed with the Northern heights programme & adding the intermediate station at Blackfriars. Run tube guage trains along the entire length and use the same naming scheme as gave rise to the Bakerloo. This could be called the 'Waterloo & Highgate' railway or the 'Watergate line'. Waterloo Blackfriars Bank Moorgate Old Street Essex Road Highbury & Islington Drayton Park Finsbury Park Stroud Green Crouch End Highgate (Then into two branches) East Finchley Cranley Gardens Finchley Central Muswell Hill Mill Hill East Alexandra Palace Mill Hill Broadway Edgeware

[@juanescobar8123]

I would propose extending it south to Lambeth, then under the river to Victoria (maybe with a stop at millbank?). Also diverting it via Aldwych and obviously putting an interchange at Blackfriars. Then, from Bank, it would head northeast (maybe to Liverpool Street or a new station near there) before heading southeast to fenchurch Street and Tower Bridge/Hill/Gateway. From there it would head further south to London Bridge.

[@samsaltwell]

Unsurprisingly the highest average wage of passengers on any given tube train in London is the Waterloo & City Line

[@ccityplanner1217]

I created a plan to extend the Waterloo & City line to Dalston Junction over the slow lines out of Broad Street. The Central line between Chancery Lane and St Paul's would be rebuilt, with a station inserted at Holborn Viaduct, & the platforms swapped at St Paul's so that westbound uses the lower level & eastbound uses the upper level. The upper level at St Paul's would be connected with platform 6 at Bank. At the same time a new tunnel would connect the eastbound Waterloo & City line, parallel with platform 8, to platform 5, providing a cross-platform interchange. Another connection would run from Liverpool Street platform 5 & would surface in the throat of Broad Street to platform 2 at Shoreditch Church station. Trains would then call at a new station behind the Geffrye Museum at Hoxton, the existing Haggerston station, & finally the Up Slow platform at Dalston Junction. North of Dalston Junction, they would run round an underground loop to the Down Stratford platform, on the other side of the same island. In the westbound direction, a new island platform would be created beneath the existing one at Liverpool Street to provide cross-platform interchange with the Central line, & tunnel from Shoreditch Church platform 1 would descend to platform 6, the island platform's west side. The westbound Central line would descend to its east side, platform 7. A pair of westbound tunnels would run below the existing Central line tunnels, which are to become the eastbound, although whether the crookedness of Old Broad Street is to be replicated remains to be seen. The westbound Waterloo & City line would then ascend to Bank's platform 7, while the westbound Central line would descend to a new platform 9 at a lower level, whence a new tunnel would connect it to the lower platform of St Paul's station. The cross-platform interchange would provide a far superior link between Kingsland and the West End, as well as between Stratford and Waterloo. It would even be of use to passengers on journeys as long as that to Scandinavia from America, who could sail into Southampton, get the train into Waterloo, travel 2 stops up to Liverpool Street, then be on the Esbjerg boat train.

[@GeorgeChoy]

Great way to start the morning

[@dukenukem5768]

Is that the site of the old Drayton Park depot on the right @2:45 ? Looks like it.

[@Tonydjjokerit]

I would extend the W & C and it will connect to Moorgate but my vision is that it would be a new station at Moorgate and deeper so it will connect the line at Old Street. I will also widen the tunnel and add 3 stations at Waterloo North, Mansion House and Blackfriars. I will use tax breaks for the private sector if they completely invest in the project.

[@andrewreynolds4949]

The only sort of reasonable sounding proposal in my opinion is a station at Blackfriars. Although I do wonder if an extension to Vauxhall is at all feasible.

[@fToo]

I don't think the current two carriage service could handle the passenger numbers that would want to use a new Blackfriars station - both from the large number of offices, and transfers from other tube lines and Thameslink

[@jmlsa439]

@@fToo You can't choose not to build something on the grounds it would be TOO popular! W&C platforms are 80 or 90m from memory (5 car?) and could perhaps be extended and run at higher frequencies with ATO. However, I'm not sure a station at Blackfrairs would be as popular as you imagine. Anyone on Thameslink can already change for the tube to Waterloo or Bank at London Bridge, Elephant & Castle or KXSP. Theres already an (albeit poor) connection to the District and circle lines at Bank/monument. And the cost of adding a station here would be enormous, not least because the gradient of the line at this point would probably mean a whole lot more tunnelling.

[@fToo]

@@jmlsa439 I don't doubt you could make changes to increase capacity - but the point is that it's not as simple as dumping in an extra station and walking away ! But I disagree about NOT choosing to build something because it would be TOO popular - exhibit A is Crossrail choosing NOT to build a station at Oxford Circus

[@jmlsa439]

@@fToo I believe Crossrail avoided connecting to the Victoria line as the Victoria line through central London is close to capacity- rather than because Crossrail itself could not handle the number of people wanting to go to Oxford circus, but I get your point. With the current level of service, the W&C is at capacity, it couldn't handle additional stops without other upgrades to the line.

[@meijiturtle3814]

My plan would be to extend the line from Bank to Fenchurch St, a terminus which has no Underground connection. This would link the Fenchurch St area of the City to the Northern and Central Lines as well as the South Western Railway. A north east south west axis. All we need is money!!

[@peterjansen7929]

Fenchurch Street, though architecturally one of the few pleasing old stations, is a nuisance! Why extend a line to serve a nuisance? As all we need is money, if we had it, it would be much better to take the line into Fenchurch Street underground somewhere around Tower Hamlets Cemetery Park, let it go to Monument/Cannon Street instead of Fenchurch Street, Ludgate Circus (I refuse to call it "City Thameslink") and Euston, then come up somewhere along a line out of Euston and take it over.

[@teecefamilykent]

Brilliant video sir.

[@papaspoof]

This is by far the most crayonista video your have put out. I love it! But those curves at Waterloo to cut/switch the Piccadilly and bakerloo lines would have been horrific. The W&C curve into Waterloo is bad enough as it is.