The Game Said No (Touhou 19 Lunatic)

[@JaimersSTG]

The new Len'en is looking pretty good.

[@R8Spike]

is it even worse balance then fools rush in

[@speedymatt1236]

So, what exactly happened in that game Jaimers?

[@maximo_ramirez]

Perfect (regular) Extra on EE with Tsubakura is child's play, though. AbEX is indeed only possible with Yabusame, though. Other games? What other games?

[@emperortoho]

at least abex is a joke difficulty, zun somehow decided this mess was ok to launch as a serious product and difficulty

[@aleph_d]

​@@emperortoho Tbf, BPoHC can throw all sorts or random BS, but at least its mechanics help you somehow

[@TheGradeCSaboteur]

You see, the trick here is to watch your opponent’s attack pattern, then the next thing to do is accept defeat and give up.

[@winthelottery4685]

just read the pattern 4head

[@fadillah6014]

Just like the ussual then, also trust your fingers often times they do some unre-playable maneuver which not even we thinking about it.

[@speedymatt1236]

Well, the boss timer begins!

[@Jowanoofy_ZO]

Dont give up for eons and you might w i n or etc

[@TheGradeCSaboteur]

@Jowanoofy_ZO At the cost of your sanity, that is.

[@Claus939]

what if you wanted to clear lunatic but god said Warning !! Extra Attack !! Warning !! Extra Attack !! Warning !! Boss Attack !! Warning !! Extra Attack !! Warning !! Extra Attack !! Warning !! Extra Attack !!

[@FireyDeath4]

You talk back to Him

[@angrysunflower222]

Make life take the lemons back. Get mad!

[@Angelo-ki7wr]

His opponent: "Just dodge bro, It can't be that hard"

[@speedymatt1236]

And then Inbachi comes along…

[@BegissoR]

Bot: Casually turns into TAS god

[@gmmffug9532]

I'm thinking ZUN was more wasted than usual while coding this

[@Epicwindow3]

more like not wasted enough imo

[@shadnickxdx9211]

Nah. He was sober. In fact, he did found his fav bar closed for business that day. He chose violence.

[@RieMUisthegoaT]

He cooked

[@kitestar]

channeled his inner _Ogura_

[@shadnickxdx9211]

@@RieMUisthegoaT ...and burnt the house with the puddles inside.

[@renookami4651]

"What spellcard do you want to play next?" "The whole deck"

[@ViddyWellSA11]

Remember back in the old days when people thought Yukari's "Boundary of Life and Death" was the craziest thing ever? Now we have stuff like this lol

[@FiveBagsOfNasu]

It's still difficult, but there are so many spells surpassing that now, BoL used to be the hardest spell capture before people started counting spells from the Aya photo taking games (Kaguya's Kinkakuji to be exact) Now Junko and some Keiki spells just takes the cake

[@fragmentedrose7401]

​@@FiveBagsOfNasupower creep

[@ViddyWellSA11]

@@FiveBagsOfNasu Yeah, and let's not forget about the absolute monster that is Okina's Spring final spellcard...

[@speedymatt1236]

Remember Gengetsu’s timeout attack?

[@fragmentedrose7401]

@@speedymatt1236 even an attack designed to kill you is doable now

[@Destroy2777]

If you've generated a situation so flooded and out of control the Lunatic AI takes a hit, you know something has gone wrong.

[@fireair100]

Actually the Story Mode AI always act like this regardless of difficulty. Chiyari is the only character who can consistently take off Lifes from opponents in Story Mode cause her unique bullet just breaks them.

[@Destroy2777]

@@fireair100 Ah, interesting. I wonder if it's meant to reinforce the need to get through the AI's attacks rather than force the AI into a mistake. ...which, if true, just makes this video all the more egregious anyways.

[@fireair100]

@@Destroy2777 The scripted boss attacks do come out faster if you attack your opponent instead of turtling but in the end, unless your Reimu or Chiyari, the characters who can easily play defensively get a MASSIVE advantage in story mode compared to others.

[@rollanddev]

@@fireair100 I've found that firing off a special or two sometimes automatically prompts the computer to use either a special or a boss attack *immediately* afterwards. The game clearly ties its "stage-progression" mechanics into the player's aggression, but it's unclear how. There seems to be a bit of a delay before this will work after the last special/boss attack but if the fight seems to stall, this generally moves things forward.

[@bawdydaram8114]

ZUN pre installed the ultra patch

[@monstermadchenkoishi2403]

why is Orin casually sending an entire ceiling down on Zanmu and why doesn't the AI care.

[@speedymatt1236]

It’s like a combination of the General from Kaiser Knuckle and that TLB from Blue Wish all in 1 fight!

[@rollanddev]

Oh. You must be new here. Welcome to Touhou vs. style games! :)

[@speedymatt1236]

I’m not too new here tbh. I’m a bit of a scientist when it comes to figuring out who is the hardest boss in gaming or finding the hardest challenge in gaming history.

[@rollanddev]

@@speedymatt1236 I'm just saying it's how these games have always been. But the reply was for the OP. :P The screen easily fills with bullets and the AI tends to move-like-they-do to dodge them. PoFV was pretty much the same, only there the computer would just throw the fight randomly after a while and let itself get hit. Here, it's pretty much pick Chiyari (new contender for most hax touhou since Yukari? -_-) or time-out in VS mode. I'd love for ZUN to come up with ways to actually beat the computer opponent without the game deciding you met some arbitrary condition and just giving you the win...

[@DarkFrozenDepths]

At this point, I feel like ZUN is looking at the Ultra mods and going: "Yeah, let's make that a thing!"

[@CrimzonDenizen]

- Absolutely mental, deranged and unhinged balancing. I'll take that as a positive review. Sold.

[@HouraisanKaguya]

Giving the final boss of a Phantasmagoria-type game random laser wall spam was a really good idea. Even on hard mode this boss is incredibly unfair and she traps you on a regular basis.

[@speedymatt1236]

WAY too unfair!

[@gostlyrics3605]

Insert plankton saying: "What it's just an ordinary Zun tou- OH MY GOODNESS"

[@Oburi7]

I really want to see people play against each other on this one

[@julianseph842gamez5]

A typical day in Gensokyo.

[@XylitoI]

"How hard can a lunatic clear be if you can just continue from the same stage?" I asked. Four hours later, I still had not defeated this boss as Sanae, despite coming close. I want to get off Ms. Bones' wild ride.

[@cirnobyl9158]

Literally me just now. EDIT: The key is to use Orin C2. Lunatic Zanmu took me only 3 tries.

[@Eltipoquevisteayer]

I simply die during the last spell, must learn how to save bombs

[@faustlican5566]

Even on normal Zanmu is nuts, I see those bone spears in my sleep, there is no getting off

[@burneraccount7831]

Sanae is superdying

[@ghost_dog97]

Honestly props to you... I foresaw my own miss over 10 times in this one video

[@speedymatt1236]

You can’t fault those efforts! At least the boss lost 1 life out of 5!

[@dibby1045]

I remember when i thought Yumemi was overtuned. Looking at this makes her look like a cakewalk. I wonder if this game would be more fun against a friend, seeing as how the enemy ai only dies when they decide to get hit.

[@perez_rales]

Actually, I noticed that the opponent loses after certain boss defeats. Yoi have to defeat the boss 5 times in the last boss, for example :v At least in normal...

[@FamilyTeamGaming]

Unlike the previous vs. games, this game has an actual "win condition" which is to defeat their bosses a certain number of times. Though I agree that this game's Lunatic is kind of PoDD levels of jank.

[@dibby1045]

@@FamilyTeamGaming i didn't know that. I think it's a better design choice overall, but there's so many other problems with this game that it was easy to overlook

[@fliermcduck]

the PoFV AI on Lunatic also actively weaves through itty-bitty gaps in tight bullet lines just for higher score to trigger more bosses and charged attacks just straight-up impossible for the AI to lose unless it is absolutely cornered or it lets you win

[@dibby1045]

@donhimesamadaifutari at least gengetsu pacifist final is doable by abusing slowdown. I don't think these patterns could be abused with that same method.

[@popcioslav]

Unironically, perfect balance for a Touhou game. This is lore-accurate. Skill issue. Get good. on a serious note, imagine if the netplay could get patched and people would do this to each other on livestreams.

[@NeoNickz]

S tier touhou game

[@speedymatt1236]

SHINU GA YOI!

[@rurihime4965]

​@@speedymatt1236amazing that someone beat inbachi before we got an official PC release

[@spiceforspice3461]

The one time I got a good game I did this to someone lmao

[@Renko0749]

3:53 Ok bro, just dodge lol

[@speedymatt1236]

I don’t know if even a TAS can do it tbh…

[@marcossegon5433]

@@speedymatt1236 Zanmu's AI took a hit, that should tell how bad things got.

[@TessaroNiki]

The problem here is that the large number of grudge spirits released by Orin are usually indestructible, but with Zanmu's ability, they become normal pure spirits, so the counter attack will end this screen!

[@TheDoughnutLovingVampire]

CAVE has been real quiet since this dropped.

[@CDJAM-webm]

@donhimesamadaifutari ?!?!?!?? its nowhere near impossible unlike inbachi

[@AugustA447]

ZUN, when we said we could dodge rain… we didn’t want you to actually test us 😅

[@Shyguymask]

This makes me feel better about no Youmu in the game

[@speedymatt1236]

I guess…

[@abarette_]

LMAOOOOOOO

[@wl4316]

Yeah. Now you have Yuuma who's basically Youmu on a sugar rush.

[@SUPAREALcutechickdGaming]

@@speedymatt1236eyy I recognize you

[@MindlessMagic]

Yeah, also this game is bad anyways so you wouldn't want to anyways

[@eyescoldlemonade]

At least the boss theme is fire

[@theonlysinisharm]

you probably think autotuned baby crying is fire too

[@HyperVanilo]

​@@theonlysinisharm Ackchually it's an erhu 🤓

[@kagummiatari9639]

(It's really a voice, I have this plugin in FL studio)

[@kagummiatari9639]

There is also an erhu but not that much

[@soya_kitchens]

@@kagummiatari9639 What is that plugin?

[@speedymatt1236]

So, uh… did you enjoy your true death? I wonder what a TAS vs TAS here would look like…

[@ppllaayyeerr1817]

The music hits like a truck The danmaku hits like a Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II

[@FCTouhou]

Zun: "the ai is balanced". The ai:

[@speedymatt1236]

This is lunacy!

[@Mirae_Somang]

3:50 this is crazy part

[@lavar36]

Back then: What the actual fuck JynX Now: What the actual fuck ZUN Len'en is the new normal in shump

[@joanmario4174]

The real Orin strat is to keep resetting until you get the extra bombs card from Nazrin on stage 1 lol

[@aaron23devis]

Why does Zun always put AIs harder than chess-bots in phantasmagoria typed games?

[@dibby1045]

Copy paste

[@gogodowser]

Making them move realisticly is hard, making them avoid the hitbox perfectly is easy

[@maglev0789]

Because making an unbeatable AI is a lot easier than making an AI that's challenging but fair

[@speedymatt1236]

It might be even crazier than the General from Kaiser Knuckle

[@SteamboatWillie1233]

because he wants you to suffer

[@prismus6520]

A true bullet hell.

[@notaco2hu]

Average day in gensokyo

[@AndrewBlechinger]

This is insane. I can't even tell which one is the AI.

[@okguy167]

The one on the right, I'm pretty sure. I think this is story mode.

[@DsiakMondala]

What ever happens, you must remain of good cheer.

[@danmario246]

...thats lunatic mode?!?!?!?!?! Talk about pure sadism and ridiculous difficulty 😱

[@speedymatt1236]

Specifically that one character especially.

[@Mudkep_]

“Oh that first death was pretty unfair he was probably going for a no death run” 4 lost lives later: 😐😐😐😐😐😐😐😐

[@speedymatt1236]

Yeah, now we understand how hard it actually is.

[@ThiagoCOZ]

Truly a beautiful balance

[@marcar9marcar972]

This is story mode. In this mode the AI cheats.

[@loafofchihuahua]

I get that this is lunatic mode, but this is nearly impossible to clear without Reimu...

[@fluury]

ultra patch of this is gonna crash your computer

[@rollanddev]

Please. The ultra patch is going to end up being easy-modo at this rate. :D

[@zeruszephuros5419]

Wtf happened at 3:05 i replayed it a dozen times and it's like Rin just phased through everything 🤣 my eyes couldn't catch up

[@WishMakers]

I would be laughing at this game's bullshit if I wasn't in extreme pain.

[@Tulipia5]

"I am now Sans Undertale, go into my eye!" - This gal, probably

[@speedymatt1236]

Sans is like 0.1% the difficulty compared to this! And yes, I completely understand how hard he is!

[@Tulipia5]

@@speedymatt1236 I know, but funny snapcube moment

[@Tulipia5]

@donhimesamadaifutari You are right, it's just that I saw a skeleton with blue eyes and my brain activated a core memory

[@mocchite]

tbh zanmu's spears reminded me of sans too

[@jambon2730]

And this is why spellcard rules were created

[@21stCenturyDub]

Those prompt screens/pauses surely can't help... Those later patterns are *intense*

[@bulb9970]

“And now the end is near… And so I face the final curtain…”

[@meta7565]

Nippaku's ability is manipulation of nothingness... I mean she's using it well to turn you into nothingness so yeah XD

[@blueheelercultist]

And we all though Twin Cranes Absurdly Extra was stupid.

[@speedymatt1236]

This is even dumber than that TLB from Blue Wish! Look it up if you haven’t already.

[@artistnoaru]

He's fighting the Ultra patch's TAS!

[@minepose98]

"lol", Zenmu said. "lmao"

[@Collei_Plush]

Reimu in Touhou 19 is like Reisen in Touhou 15

[@rurihime4965]

At least the other characters in 15 werent worthless

[@jambon2730]

Nah Reimu is Marisa B in th10 level

[@FinetalPies]

Not clickbait, the game really did say no

[@guy_th18]

this is the wildest case of mass "not understanding how the game works" I've ever seen

[@unfunniestman]

this is literally yumemi all over again

[@BegissoR]

Jaimers tries to play normally while bot on the right plays TAS

[@speedymatt1236]

Just like the General from Kaiser Knuckle!

[@Proudchaud]

Some characters in this game are waaaaaay too good at putting up a literal wall of shit in this game

[@edwardiscoclubber1336]

very human gameplay experience

[@abarette_]

starting from 3:44: the end of the world, wouldn't surprise me if it crashed

[@speedymatt1236]

It’s the end of the world as we know it!

[@Mimi-kn8wu]

Zun really put his whole zunussy into this game

[@jimboydejuan7869]

Touhou 19 literally len'en version.

[@SuperChrim]

I recently made a mod that gets rid of enemies spawning during the story mode spell cards. Helps prevent stuff like that happening.

[@gnixreal]

this is the reason why not shooting can be a good strategy

[@olixx1213]

Unfortunatly He has a boss to kill

[@gnixreal]

@@olixx1213 time out

[@olixx1213]

@@gnixreal its way too long to be worth

[@OfficialMargaretMoonlight]

So I’m not the only one experiencing the same thing with Orin…

[@jambon2730]

Literally what if POFV's ai meet impossible spell card

[@Kelleck]

this is just fools rush in but without the ability to send back every bullet to your opponent.

[@monstermadchenkoishi2403]

Having learned the game more, this shit wouldn't happen if Zanmu's level 2 didn't work on spirit EX attacks like Orin's or the Matriarchs.

[@fadillah6014]

Did Orin just literally throw her cart?

[@SteamboatWillie1233]

when in doubt use any tactic necessary to win the war.

[@SATO_TOUHOU_]

これは地獄の支配者(確信) ファンが作ったウルトラモードとか言われても信じる

[@Sera-F1nn]

Damn, i guess i have 0 clue about how the hit system works, huh.

[@speedymatt1236]

Me neither.

[@youdonotcare]

Fair and balanced

[@Eredom]

Zun approved this as being OK. Zun is not a good game Designer anymore.

[@speedymatt1236]

It’s making even Blue Wish’s TLB look better in comparison to this!

[@SteamboatWillie1233]

how do know thats not Mima running the studio because Zun got locked in the basement?

[@daiki-1787]

Nahh, looks very well balanced for me Also how good is orin here?

[@JaimersSTG]

She's about as good as everyone else: Absolutely terrible.

[@speedymatt1236]

Imagine if Inbachi was a playable character in this game! (Unlike that one Japanese mobile cave game)

[@thesubinion]

When I heard this morning that my favorite character is gonna be playable - my happiness knew no bounds. Now imagine my sheer fcking disappointment when I unlocked her and found out how awful she is to play

[@daiki-1787]

@@JaimersSTG Fair enough

[@lpfan4491]

It is actually slightly hilarious to see. In the Demo, people were able to make a real tierlist but in the final game, it seems to devolve into "Reimu gud, final boss gud, everyone else trash".

[@GiodyneSTG]

Those prompts are giving me puyo 12 chain flashbacks

[@corbeauwrite]

ok that was funny to see, just get good man

[@TheMMMification]

This must be what going up against Schlauchi (I forgot how their name is spelled) would be like.

[@Nsquare_01]

4:16 wtf

[@speedymatt1236]

Yeah, idk what to do there tbh.

[@prizmastarz742]

just phantasmgoria things

[@mmyr8ado.360]

So that's the reason the characters for Chireiden show up a couple of times in Reimu's story. Can't wait for the English translation patch.

[@cirnobyl9158]

Not saying I could have cleared this myself in one try (would probably take several dozen tries), BUT I think Orin is significantly better than people give her credit for. Her C2 is really good. It screen clears all mobs and spirits and buys you a lot of time and space. A lot of the bullet spam in this video was not due to Zanmu's innate spellcards, but rather due to animal spirits, which C2 would help against. I think unless your shield is down, your default best course of action with Orin is usually to charge up C2's. EDIT: it took me 3 tries. Orin C2 is so damn good that sometimes I would use C2 over C3 when my shield was down. That being said I'm still far from a Lunatic 1cc because Chiyari would drain most of my lives even before Zanmu.

[@raccoonchild]

I figured it out. The chanting is actually the player's cries of anguish.

[@GameBooAdvancePlus]

Bro hit the enrage timer

[@okguy167]

So close! Another few seconds, and you would have won.

[@aleph_d]

Average Len'en Experience

[@manuelmoreno9814]

seihou*

[@TenshiYerlin]

They did not hesitate to unleash their attacks.

[@enesyazar8851]

imagine an actual ultra patch for touhou 19

[@speedymatt1236]

We desperately need game updates here!

[@rollanddev]

You're right, we *could* use something to tone down the difficulty a smidge...

[@TancredPayans]

this game costs more than 18

[@speedymatt1236]

Your LIFE!

[@Hedge_the_Hog]

Wait. She purifies Orin's cursed spirits? And then sends them back as basic shots?

[@Hedge_the_Hog]

Isn't it counterproductive to send 3 charged attacks then?

[@olixx1213]

​@@Hedge_the_Hoghe has to do a level 3 to recharge his shield

[@daniellelondon439]

Dear god what the heck is going on here. How can you even see where you are on the screen with all those bullets everywhere

[@LOZFFVII]

DEAD PARROT

[@Agju]

Man, Twinkle Star Sprites got really hardcore...

[@lockaltube]

Original Touhou license: Don't make image content edits ... this includes things like extra bullets that weren't originally there. Zun in Touhou 19: screw it, there won't be extra space for extra bullets

[@prizmastarz742]

Is this the punishment for the fans who shit on LoLK almost a decade ago

[@speedymatt1236]

It’s the punishment for EVERYONE completely overestimating bosses like Sans and Malenia. Maybe even Inbachi!

[@mocchite]

unrelated but the fact that this comment made me realise it's been almost a decade since LoLK really hit me

[@prizmastarz742]

​@@mocchite yeah and i witnessed all the hating (the only rightfully hate is the gameplay) was one of the LoLK truther 💔💔💔

[@Schoo_Schoo]

How do you use a spell without charging like at 0:27? 🥺

[@flandechocolate9675]

Come to realize, if you are using bombs Zanmu isn't that hard, you just have to survive until the last spellcard and use 2 bombs to kill her

[@symmetricfivefold]

The only thing that doesn't look easier than you thought.

[@neetamoori8690]

So, the fact that bullshit attacks that are impossible to dodge was a must for these games since the beginning?

[@speedymatt1236]

And I thought Gengetsu had an attack that is just too crazy!

[@dibby1045]

Nah, mostly every pattern is easily doable for touhou games. It's just the phantasmagoria games that decide that game design must be thrown out the window.

[@WishMakers]

@@dibby1045 key difference here too and why no-miss in PoFV (which has no bombs to use) is feasible is that despite some of the walls the similar game can give you, you can also use your charge to cancel things, + more of the bullets are reflected by enemy explosions this game took that level of difficulty, but took away your ability to destroy bullets, except with reimu who has a bullet clearing nuclear missile in fantasy seal PoFV isn't exactly a bastion of fair pattern design either, but you could potentially control the storm to *some* extent. here you drown. PoDD had bombs only for managing bullets like this game but there were also far less bullets overall to worry about including reflected ones

[@oosha2000]

3:55 I'm speechless

[@AnhTuanFFVu]

Right:😊 Left:💀💀💀💀💀💀