Japan vs. Italy - The Forgotten Pacific War

[@francescoboselli6033]

As an Italian I didn’t know about that: I never studied the Destiny of Italian troops in the Far East. Thanks for make me discover this page of Italian history

[@kmc7355]

@@---qb1bf Okay, their leadership on the whole was crap but they did have a lot of badass troops, especially the submariner guys.

[@anderstopansson]

@@---qb1bf Me ne frego !

[@kmc7355]

@Zeros DaBast Thanks for the well thought out response.

[@Namco_]

@Texas Jack shame for what ? atleast Italy win in ww1 ,germany lost both of them lmao

[@mickkrever4084]

@@---qb1bf *In the intern camp an American talked to an Axises Italian "how did you end up here", he answers "oh I my country switched side"*

[@marks_sparks1]

Ok this is completely new history to me😳. Didn't know Italy had far eastern pocessions, let alone fought the Japanese. Thanks Dr Felton.

[@adamcoleman6504]

One more lesson for you, it’s spelled “possessions” not “pocessions” 😂

[@Potatotenkopf]

Spaghetti vs ramen

[@bigboizism]

Adam Coleman tytfy

[@davideb.4290]

I didn't know it neither, and I am italian myself

[@marks_sparks1]

@@adamcoleman6504 thanks grammar nazi

[@marcoreale9259]

I did hear of this war from Italian veterans living in Bedford UK. The original Italian community in Bedford was made of POWs from North Africa. In 1951 the first wave of immigrants from Southern Italy came to work in the brickworks, many men were veterans of WW2 some had been in the Folgore, some had fought in Montecassino with the new Italian Army on the side of the Allies against the Germans. As a civil servant, I had the occasion of meeting many veterans in Bedford. I once had to attend a meeting of English and Italian veterans who fought each other in Anzio and there they were drinking tea together and telling young generations that war is not fun. Those men who were trying to kill each other in Anzio were really glad to be together in peace. Only those who have witnessed the horror of war can deeply appreciate peace.

[@TimeTraveller010]

They are the true soldiers! Individuals that can sit together after fighting each other!

[@TimeTraveller010]

@Daniele Fabbro True, the limeys are good at betrayal. Mussolini chose to side with Germany when Woodrow Wilson in agreement with the limeys, refused to give full sovereignty to the German nation. Germany like Italy was deprived or had their colonialist territories withdrawn, in addition to vetoing Germany from military expansion and development. Idiots on YT=switch sides....

[@alessiocataldi2434]

Are there in Bedford so many it reesidents ?

[@frankfreethinkernero8458]

Yep well said Marco , Hear hear !

[@frankfreethinkernero8458]

There’s a feature article on the magazine PICTURE POST about that Italian community , dated early 50s I think .

[@blueseanomad7435]

I've studied the Pacific war for more than a decade at this point and have never heard of this. Thanks for sharing these interesting facts.

[@RedSnake714]

guess you didn't study enough

[@blueseanomad7435]

@Caleb Hall Seems that way!

[@squirrele.1266]

Victor Warmflash hi

[@loveofmangos6112]

@Victor Warmflash Same here. You are not alone sir. Been studying WW2 (mainly planes) for most of my 28 years of life and had no idea Italians were involved in the Pacific at all except for Submarines maybe.

[@jamesr.9852]

You're only taught what the historians want you to know. Italy flip flopped more than any country I'm WW2!

[@warrenlehmkuhleii8472]

Allied POWs: What are you doing here? Italians: Long story.

[@ngogercin]

"They toucha my spaghet"

[@lex1945]

What a mistaka to maka!

[@marcoAKAjoe]

Prettt much

[@MakeSomeNoisePlaylists]

loosing as always anf trying to get German help.....

[@assassin_rk42]

@@MakeSomeNoisePlaylists the Italians wiped out several Soviet divisions and encircled entire armies.

[@johnnymcblaze]

"Oh, you fought in the war? Did you fight for the axis powers or the allies?" Italian soldier: "Yes"

[@MrBjornibjorn]

Italian soldier: Si, signore!

[@franznarf]

@@MrBjornibjorn marinai: signorsì

[@sanghunoh4360]

in 1943~1945, USA, UK, France and USSR had to support Italy against Japan(France and Italy were hated each other, but france had to support italy against Japan...it was funny)

[@thegrandcoffein6928]

Italy:both

[@bobmcbob49]

China was the Thunderdome in WWII. Everybody had some stake in it so everybody wound up fighting Japan at some point. China also had a grab bag of equipment from everyone. Some German helmets and boots, Italian and German tankettes, American tanks, you name it.

[@m.sydneyvern2260]

Who needs wikipedia when we have Mark to give us history

[@fazole]

Wikipedia is not a reliable source.

[@КИБАРКУБИЦА-с4д]

Which sources are more reliable than wiki?

[@bahnspotterEU]

Real scientific books and journals گلای زخم

[@chuckh5999]

I'm amazed at the depth of his research and frequency of delivery. Better than the Brittanica.

[@kazimierzmalewicz3604]

fazole what are you, a teacher talking to a student? Shut the fuck up, everyone knows that Wikipedia isn’t a scholarly source

[@sovietfederation9738]

I swear there is a lot of history during the 1900s that we haven’t even learned yet no matter how much we study the 1900s

[@joonpark2057]

The 20th century is basically if 2020 happened for a whope century

[@poisonsquid37]

@Evurblue Because the communists won the war and we are living in their hell hole dystopia.

[@hobboyjoy4887]

Yes you're right Soviet

[@R4KT1M]

@@poisonsquid37 Yeah get rekt by Vietnamese farmers

[@truthseeker4475]

Yeah like Bolshevism.

[@tropifiori]

Most British Historians, when discussing Italian military affairs, aren’t particularly kind . However, this is a very fair and balanced presentation. Thanks Frank

[@andrzejadamowicz3753]

Frank?

[@primuspilusfellatus6501]

@@andrzejadamowicz3753 Welcome to boomer youtube, where you "sign off" by ending your comment with your name

[@TimeTraveller010]

Now, today, the British have a dim view of Italy and Germany, nothing has changed. Italian WW2 campaigns are denigrated to please their propagandising effects. Italians on many fronts put the Brits out of action temporarily. Conclusively the Allies won by the great support of America first, then England's former colonies, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, India, and a few of the African nation states. I will not hypothesise what could have been possible, or invest in a speculative theory. America has been the new power since WW2 and it's a fait accompli. Brits should pay their war debts to America!

[@lowereducation6631]

@@TimeTraveller010 the individual Italian soldier did just fine, the force however was poorly led, poorly equipped and massively overextended. It's not the fault of the individual Italian soldier, but much of the criticism is well deserved.

[@chrisangus7078]

@@TimeTraveller010 Italian troop were repeatedly beaten buy British and could troop from there star in the war the African corp was sent to shore up the Italians in Africa . Please check you information thank you.

[@obscureoccultist9158]

This is why I love this channel. I'm learning things that otherwise would have been forgotten!

[@Psychol-Snooper]

forgotten? How?

[@jesusislukeskywalker4294]

yes. i would say: don't ever eat kentucky fried chicken... ever. and boil the water before drinking. flouride is prozac.

[@MakeSomeNoisePlaylists]

@@Psychol-Snooper you didnt even know abou this.....tzzz....

[@Psychol-Snooper]

@Shawn Powell The foil hats are a Martian conspiracy! They help the Martians read your mind, so they can sell the data to Google.

[@Psychol-Snooper]

@@MakeSomeNoisePlaylists You can only forget something you knew... "tzzz..."

[@mauricev5637]

I call myself a MASSIVE WW2 buff, yet I've never even HEARD of Italian troops fighting with or against, Japan in the Far East. Well done Mr. Felton!!

[@howardthealien2606]

Japanese Invasion of Alaska,Japanese invasion of Vietnam,Japanese invasion of Madagascar

[@TWEEK_SouthPark]

Same here, never heard of this before. Intriguing indeed.

[@alessiocataldi2434]

Vietnam by Japan ?? Omg Vietnamese faced and survived 5 invasions

[@howardthealien2606]

Alessio Cataldi cause they were French ruled The thing is at first Vietnam was Vichy French but the Free French fought a took over and then Japan invaded with Vietnamese Men and French the Japanese Deere outnumbered but Cause a lot of Damage.

[@oliviersavard8676]

@@howardthealien2606 Japanese offensive in the Aleutian Islands is pretty well known though

[@ntd4ever]

There's a fancy restaurant in Tokyo where I used to work called Antonio's Ristorante. My boss whose name is Antonio, like his father, and his grandfather before him. Antonio (the grandfather) was the head-chef or personal chef for the admiral of the Italian navy. At the end of the war, Antonio was stationed at the Calitea that got scuttled in Kobe, Japan, and went to a POW camp exactly what Mark Felton said. Conditions were awful, but nonetheless, after the war, he decided to stay in Japan and start a restaurant which is still in business since 1944. His restaurant was the best Italian food that I've ever ate, but my experiences with Italian food are limited to some places in New York's Little Italy, and Brooklyn is still my favorite place for pizza. I know that John Lennon, and James Brown once dined in the restaurant before. If you do want to meet Antonio (the great grand son) if you dine there, he works almost everyday during dinner time. He's 3/4 Japanese and 1/4 Italian, so he looks more Japanese than Italian but he doesn't look like an average Japanese person. The 2nd generation of Antonio looks more Italian than Japanese.

[@vincenzorinaldi9196]

Bella testimonianza. Un saluto dall' Italia.

[@Trillock-hy1cf]

This is the speciality of Mark, digging up rarely known stories, pictures and films, of these apparently long forgotten actions during WWII. This is what appeals to us followers of his channel....:)

[@jonathanducoutumany2538]

that's why we are here

[@patwest1815]

These are some of the few WWII videos I watch these days. Unique unheard of battles.

[@francisdrake6622]

I've always been of the opinion that the little stories are the most telling ones in the study of history - especially when they don't quite jibe with what is "commonly" known.

[@Trillock-hy1cf]

@@francisdrake6622 Yes, and often put paid to myths over the years....:)

[@suzyqualcast6269]

Or purposefully obscured....

[@aidanfarnan4683]

"Outnumbered 10 to one and lacking any heavy equipment..." Sabaton: "You have my attention."

[@DonPatrono]

sigh...if only....this would have been perfect for Last Stand album....

[@kraanz]

Sabaton is not only extremely overrated, but also seems to have a worrisome following of all kinds of political extremists and nutjobs in Russia.

[@johnistvanffy8603]

@@kraanz Who cares if extremists like their music. If a nazi likes Sabaton it definitely isn't because of the lyrics, they just like the music.

[@FedoReds88]

We have the tradition of being outnumbered, underequipped and put by our stupid leadership in the wrost scenarios, and still fighting to the death giving an hell of a battle In fact from the time we joing NATO and have access to better equipment and refilling line, less depending from mad decisions, we develop one of the most efficient army in the world, small but effective

[@shadowlord1418]

@@kraanz people do not control their fans i dont dind them overated at all

[@jeffsanders1609]

When you realize 100 Italians surrounded and manning a radio station lasted longer in a fight than all of Denmark did.

[@xJavelin1]

Well those Italians did realise that they were in a war and knew what was coming for them. The Danes not so much

[@djharto4917]

Denmark didn’t have the English Channel too save them.

[@AdmiralBonetoPick]

@@xJavelin1 World War Two had already been going on for over 7 months by the time Denmark was attack. The Danes should have been on their guard. Although as an American I guess I'm not one to talk.

[@generalzyklon3913]

@@AdmiralBonetoPick Denmark never had a chance at defending themselves, and didn't intend to waste Danish lives in a fruitless conflict. In fact, the Danish armed forces were not supposed to have engaged the Germans at all.

[@martinputt6421]

@@generalzyklon3913 They could have tried though. The soldiers wanted to but the government and King were cowards. Norway fought the invasion as did other nations that were attacked.

[@TEA-fj3ut]

The plot thickens when Italy changes sides and loyalties are put to the test. Another interesting story I never heard of. Thanks Mark.

[@krisssmike3378]

There you saw: the good ones were those who at first defended themselves against the understandable reaction of Germans and Japanese, to immediately after volunteer to remain loyal to the ally despite the war was by then obviously lost. The bad apples where those rushing to deliver themselves in ignominious captivity. At today in Italy we consider the switching of side, the moment our Fatherland died.

[@roryobrien4401]

not a subject many Italians would like to discuss

[@jesusislukeskywalker4294]

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_cult_of_ancient_Rome

[@enricol5974]

@@krisssmike3378 Bad Apples? The ones that surrendered choose the hard way. The Italian royal navy pledged loyalty to to the King , not to Mussolini. The easy way in Far East was to volunteer and fight Japan. War prisoners in Japanese camps were unlikely to survive due to starvation and hard work ( just look the picture at 13.38) Haveyou ever seen the movie "The bridge on river Kwai?" They made a choice and paid an high price. Bottom line :They deserve respect regardless what was their choice.

[@enricol5974]

@@roryobrien4401 Not really it was more than 70 years ago , it may be a difficult subject for the young ones born after 1980, because they have no idea. Whoever was born before knows better : their grandparents and parents experienced first hand and told them how it was difficult and hard, regardless if you were a soldier or a civilian. War is terrible as it is , I let you imagine how worse could be when you fight for one side and your brother fight for other side.

[@ak9989]

Interesting as always Mark. My dad was stationed in Tientsin in 1945 as a Marine at the French Concession. He's still alive at 95!

[@xJavelin1]

That's a good point. What happened to those French troops in the Far East as the political situation back in France changed and changed and changed again during the war? Were they rounded up/attacked by the Japanese too?

[@darktemplardelta268]

@@xJavelin1 I think there's a vid on that but I can't remember if it was done by Dr. Felton or simple History.

[@LuisLRC]

how old are you???

[@vladimirkovacevic4415]

Did he seen batle?

[@silvervalleystudios2486]

God bless your dad. I hope hes enjoying his golden years.

[@jaygreider4753]

My father fought in Italy during WW2. He said, "by 1943, the Italians had no idea who they were fighting for."

[@youtubehasbigcringe]

barefoot arizona OY

[@Luca-ok6sw]

Cristiano Gimmelli onestamente non credo di avere ancora mai visto uno straniero che sa davvero come funzioni e come abbia funzionato l’Italia

[@jimmend7361]

@@Luca-ok6sw la cosa grave è che pensano davvero di sapere come funziona tutto

[@seferinorino6951]

barefoot arizona another illuminated idiot who keeps repeating the same names. And you think that you are one of the few who “knows”. You are just spewing the same rubbish the nazis said. You imbecile.

[@alessiocataldi2434]

which battles did your father fought ?

[@mikecavallaro466]

Great presentation of what would otherwise be mostly forgotten history.

[@PeteCourtier]

They executed pow’s to motivate their men. They then knew that the allies would take revenge and so would fight to the death. As capture would mean certain brutal justice or death. This was told by a captured Japanese officer when asked why Australian prisoners were beaten to death or beheaded in Malaya.

[@EricToTheScionti]

Thats why i love this channel

[@saintquarantine2399]

Germans, Italians, and Japanese were the Axis Powers of that era. But the Italians and Japanese still fought over territory they dont own. I never really knew this until now. And I always thought the Axis guys were mostly in good terms.

[@Rikki0]

Rommel, as well as other German commanders, said that the common Italian soldiers were brave and extremely competent, as well as very dependable. He said that what earned the Italian army its horrible reputation was the completely incompetent leadership they received from their officer corps.

[@gusgone4527]

Did anyone believe him?

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

Rommel didnt say that. On the contrary. He blamed the Italians for Afrika Corps defeats.

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

@Aqua Fyre Dont you know the Germans had to go fight for the Italians on every campaing the Italians did? They were lazy big mouths that ran away instead of fighting . Mouths dont win battles.

[@timmarshall9550]

Hans von Luck said that the Italians were "fast learners but fast forgetters too!'

[@floriangeyer3454]

@@gusgone4527 Rommel fought the Italians in WW1. He knew them as a hard and brave enemy.

[@甲鳥先知]

These Italian buildings are still in Tianjin！

[@alessiocataldi2434]

Nì hào! where exactly are them in Tianjin ?

[@甲鳥先知]

@@alessiocataldi2434 你 ni 好 hao!

[@甲鳥先知]

@@alessiocataldi2434 Tianjin Hebei District

[@FenixYuk]

i've been there a few years ago without knowing much of this history, even thought that's some kind of former german concession

[@uwanttono4012]

@@甲鳥先知 我五年前在那里！

[@decam5329]

Never heard about this. Never even conciderd it. Mark Felton strike's again. Amazing.

[@vespelian5769]

These guys were in an impossible position. Another brilliant bit of research.

[@GiulioBalestrier]

Intresting story. One thing is quite argueable: deployment of large Italian submarines in the Atlantic was not disastrous at all. They performed quite well. 30 Italian subs in the Atlantic sank 109 allied shipping for over half a million gross tons losing about 50% of their force. In WW2, that was not a bad performance, on the contrary.

[@thecommentaryking]

The Leonardo da Vinci for example was the best non-German sub of WW2

[@quartercast]

I think he mentioned it was disastrous for the allies

[@arguelloit1]

@@quartercast me too

[@SaurierDNA]

The narrator makes several difficult to hear commends, speaking the sentences too fast, that makes one think he said something else... In this one he mend that the Italian submarines were disastrous for the allies. Another one "Japanese Forces were soon overwhelmed" at 2:29, he means "Japanese Forces would soon overwhelme"

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

The Italians had some of the absolute best 'specialist' units during the war. Their combat divers were revolutionary in their use of 'frogman' tactics in offensive operations, their auto-sahara unit was the inspiration for the LRDG (and would eventually become their nemesis during the war), their Alpini troops were top notch, and their Folgore paratroopers fought ferociously against their enemies - which towards the end of the war would include themselves on two different sides of the conflict. Their sub-mariners were likewise devoted and well-trained. The Allies would never admit it, but the post-war creation of special forces units like the Navy Seals took much inspiration from the Italians. The issue with the Italians was that you couldn't win WWII with exceptional special forces and absolutely demoralized and unwilling regular units. Their industrial capacity or lack-there-of comes into play with this as well as their political, economic, and social divisions. The Italians sprung for quality in a war where quantity was the deciding factor - not to mention their prior 10 years of constant warfare in Africa and Spain.

[@giuseppersa2391]

Being an Italian I'm terribly unfamiliar with this part of history. Your video has been most informative..as always! From Giuseppe in Cape Town South Africa

[@jmwb4u]

Liar you are not italian!

[@frankfreethinkernero8458]

JOHNNIE WALKER How do you know ?

[@hellsing507]

@@jmwb4u looks like an Italian to me.

[@sinjimsmythe9577]

Johnnie Walker “Giuseppe” with that profile pic, sounds pretty Italian to me 😂

[@htos1av]

I learn MORE in one epi from Mark Felton than THE ENTIRETY of the former History Channel! Thank you, SIR!

[@CroPETROforeverNBA]

I was always saying and it is a fact; Italians when defending, they're one of the best soldiers in world. It's no wonder their football team always play defence first :). Italian people have such mentality which doesn't give them any pleasure in conquest of anyone, but when it comes about defending... THEY ARE ONE OF THE BRAVEST. Greets from Croatia.

[@vaderetro264]

Very true.

[@cristianmatheus850]

Wow

[@scassinaentrabarrica]

Hold my roman empire.

[@1112viggo]

that seems odd given how good you guys where at conquering back in the day

[@ZenFox0]

Tell that to Ethiopia.

[@thurin84]

ive been studying ww2 for 47 years now. this is the 1st time ive ever heard of these troops and battles. thank you.

[@trupska]

Bad university

[@thurin84]

@@trupska only maybe 1% of what ive leanred about ww1 an 2 was taught in school.

[@Ezekiel903]

maybe you using only US history books

[@thurin84]

@@Ezekiel903 well, english language books anyway (ie canadian, british, australian etc). pretty sure i could spout something you dont know.

[@Ezekiel903]

@@thurin84 dann mach mal, ich warte

[@richardschiffman7657]

I hate hearing people say that Italian soldiers were the worst of any country during the war. The Italians were very brave even when the odds were heavily stacked against them. Besides, the only reason they did poorly during the war was because they had horrible commanders who cared more about looking good in their dress uniforms than actual military doctrines and tactical and staff training.

[@LeporidaeanDream]

There is also the fact that no other country than Germany expected war, and only a short one at that. Hitler promised Mussolini in 1939 that a quick war would not start for more than 3 years. Strangely, the italian leader still had no concern for training the military sufficiently before or after this fact. I don't think anyone was much worse or better in their efforts to defend their countries, they only used what they had access to.

[@franznarf]

No a noi piace suonare 'o mandolino e fare l'ammore con le mogli di chi ci prende per il culo

[@watching99134]

@@LeporidaeanDream Italy had rearmed in the early 1930s, but by the time war broke out its equipment was already dated.

[@1112viggo]

same can be said of the french army of the time

[@Rusty_Gold85]

At the hands of incompetent British Command we lost a lot of Australian and Indians at Malaysia and Singapore

[@Dani-kx8jo]

Japanese: We will conquer that radio station easily Italians: Hold my Brunello di Montalcino

[@HectorLopez-tl2fk]

"outnumbered 10 to 1, 100 Italian soldiers resisted repeated Japanese banzai charges for over 24 hrs"

[@aruji-sama]

I heard it in Mario's voice

[@loods2215]

As an Italian i find this joke great ahahahah

[@Dani-kx8jo]

@@loods2215 Sono italiano pure io ahah

[@loods2215]

@@Dani-kx8jo daje

[@mattblom3990]

Mind blowing - I have several great tomes on World War II and not one mentioned anything mentioned here in regards to Italian pacific assets or conflict.

[@bluetv6386]

Because it is like that other Italian Pacific asset, Hawaian Pizza, best left forgotten

[@The_FatGeneral]

@@flagassault9715 ???

[@EricToTheScionti]

@@flagassault9715 citation needed...

[@justsomesoldierplayingpiano]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/m4W9eH-oZrFkm6s Footage of Italian tanks getting prepared

[@ianurbina9777]

@@justsomesoldierplayingpiano RICKROLL ALERT

[@ianmacfarlane1241]

Several people happy to mock the Italian WW2 troops, but they found themselves in an impossible situation. It's easy to be full of bravado when safely sitting in front of a computer nearly 80 years after the fact. Some Italians will have fought alongside the Japanese because of political ideology, while for some self preservation would have been the determining factor. It would have taken a very brave man to decide to fight against the Japanese on their own doorstep when massively outnumbered, particularly when the situation in Italy was far from clear. Personal politics would have only served to further complicate the situation as many if the troops wouldn't have been Fascists in the first place.

[@enricol5974]

@Ian MacFarlane Mostly of them weren't fascists at all. The Royal Italian Navy and Army pledged loyalty to the King of Italy not to Mussolini. There were some fascist army units called" Blackshirts " that pledged loyalty only to Mussolini: they fought in North Africa and Russia.

[@ianmacfarlane1241]

@@enricol5974 It'd be absurd to imagine, (or pretend), that the only Fascists within the Italian population were the Blackshirts and other acolytes of Mussolini. While there's no question that the 1934 'election' was rigged, there still were a large percentage of Fascists in Italy, as well as significant percentages of Socialists, Communists and Royalists/ Nationalists. It therefore stands to reason that the Italian armed forces would have pretty representative numbers of people from each political persuasion, although clearly the Communists and Socialists would have to keep their ideologies under wraps.* What the respective percentages were at the outbreak of WW2, or by September 1943 I couldn't say, but there still were significant numbers of people loyal to Mussolini, (to varying degrees). *I'm sure that the situation was exactly the same in other countries - there will have been significant numbers of Germans who were anything but Nazis, just as there will have been Allied troops and civilians who will have has varying degrees of sympathy to the Nazi or Fascist regimes.

[@mikehunt3436]

I guess I am surprised the Tianjin garrison didn't try to leverage their position for better treatment. The Tianjin concession could easily have been an internment camp for the Italians, just strip the communications and weapons. But either the leadership didn't negotiate well or the Japanese lied, but having your troops get treated like common PoWs because of some political shenanigans a world away.

[@vladimiroparlato6001]

Two of my uncles fought under Mussolini and they were anti fascist to the bone..things are never black & white.

[@Tom-zc9gs]

​@@ianmacfarlane1241 There's statistics about how many soldiers pledged allegiance to the RSI puppet government after the 8th September 1943 armistice and capture by the Germans, here (www.giovanninoguareschi.com/archivio-bibliografia/2005%20Ferioli%20saggio%20sugli%20IMI%20optanti%20Nuova%20Storia%20Contemporanea.pdf) it mentions around 10% of the military NCOs and enlisted prisoners and 30% of the officers made the pledge. Most of the soldiers did not, because they did not believe the same government who sent them to war in such a terrible shape, leadership and through useless hardships was still worth fighting for, and the Germans let them suffer through starvation. Several soldiers deserted, others joined the resistance (e.g. Enrico Martini and his alpini troops) and some joined the Co-belligerent combat groups armed by the British, some resisted to the end (the somewhat popular Divisione Acqui). Italy was basically split in half, both geographically and politically, but it's pretty safe to say the fascist zealots were at that point a vocal minority, though sizable. Of course the situation is always more complicated than we can gather from personal observations (like mine). When they took power, they forced their institutions on everyone. My great-grandfather was an employee of the railways, a socialist and son of a fairly outspoken socialist party journalist, but he had to protect his family and relatives, so he had to get the party badge just to keep his job and bring home the bread. He had to bring my grandfather, then a child, to the saturday rallies though he despised them. If you didn't have the badge, if you didn't participate in the cultural and social events the party organized for the people, you would become a social outcast and be persecuted. Many were willing to accept that so that harm would not come to their livelihood, or just to be left alone while living their daily lives. Then the racial laws of 1938, the war and so on put even more pressure on the regime to control the population, albeit with limited effect compared to what happened in Germany. This ended up helping the general populace getting disillusioned about the possibility of accepting the regime after the armistice, except where the Germans ended up occupying Italian soil during Operation Achse, in which the choice of rejecting the new regime wasn't even a possibility. My great-grandfather hardly survived the war unscathed, being deported by the Nazis to Turin, being forced to work for the Todt organisation and getting ill in the process. Terrible to say, but he was one of the lucky ones, as he managed to return home after the war.

[@devingraves8044]

Thats crazy, the last confirmed IJN kill on a plane was from Italians on an Italian sub

[@ZenFox0]

I wonder if there were any Italian-Americans in that American bomber.

[@professionalnoob5474]

@@ZenFox0 yeah maybe

[@carriecoltart5661]

History Chanel: Runs out of ideas and plays pawn stars all day Mark Felton: Hold my tea

[@grandrapids57]

Very well put: this use of computers allows one man with a vision to easily out-do an entire editorial and planning board of a big TV channel.

[@jaybdub77]

Lol. The History Channel should be renamed as the Speculation Channel.

[@keelyleilani1326]

I thought Pawn Stars was discontinued years ago.....🤷‍♂️

[@janewhite4486]

C.Colart : Perfect !

[@edstar83]

They haven't run out of ideas. Just want to keep people ignorant.

[@gtrulez]

I learned more from Mr. Mark Felton than from my history teacher back in my school days! Keep them coming!

[@Luckboxrr]

You sir, are the real history channel

[@noscopesallowed8128]

Jeez the Japanese had no chill with their POWs. I don't think I've ever heard a single good story from them.

[@rogerpattube]

Here’s one that surprised me. Japanese captain picked up a few hundred British and American survivors of the battle of the Java Sea in late March 1942. Guess he hadn’t got the message yet.

[@TallboyDave]

It was a combination of factors, if I recall; Japan's culture of 'honour above all' that saw Death in service of the Emperor as the greatest thing a subject of Japan could aspire to, while surrender was an intolerable stain on the name of yourself and your family; the extremely harsh training regimen of the typical IJA soldier and IJN sailor; and while I can't recall for certain, I think there was a General Order issued by the Japanese Imperial Staff in 1940 that declared that No Quarter was to be given to any enemy combatant, and not to accept an enemy's surrender.

[@sneeki8082]

There's this village that made a shrine for a Japanese officer in the Philippines

[@anderstopansson]

Same in Vietnam...

[@thhseeking]

@@rogerpattube Silent Victory by Clay Blair Jr mentions a Japanese destroyer commander picking up the survivors of the U.S. submarine he'd just sunk. The Japanese commander gave the U.S. sub commander his condolences on the loss of his ship. Everything was OK until they were landed and taken over by the Army who ran the camps. I suspect that this had something to do with British influence on the IJN during its development (at least until the 30s).

[@AtomicPeacenik]

Hi all. Always wondered what became of the Italian troops in Shanghai’s International Zone. Had no idea they were serving in other cities as well.

[@rexdaylawn1609]

Hi

[@chinchilla-rb4vn]

I've been reading military history since I was a litlle boy and didn't know anything about this matter. Thanks, Mr. Felton.

[@jasmikko]

Same here

[@Ole4735]

Me at 2AM: ok it’s late. Time for bed Mark Felton: *”DID YOU KNOW JAPAN AND ITALY FOUGHT EACH OTHER IN WWII?!”* Me:”....what’s sleep anyway?”

[@KMN-bg3yu]

Same bro

[@herculesc130.]

glad i’m not the only one

[@garyspencer6917]

Sleep is overrated anyway

[@Jagdpanther226]

I don’t need sleep. I need answers!

[@inquisitorsteele8397]

Sleep is for the weak

[@23sunderland]

My mother in law is Italian. From Bergamo. Her father was a colonel in the Garabaldi Brigade . It enlightened me when she showed me his partisan papers along with his false name .in case they were captured by the Gestapo and tortured . I believe they were the brigade that captured Mussolini. So Italians are always characterized as cowardly or duplicitous. BUT the name of ANGELO PARIS is revered there because of his exploits against the Nazis. So there was some really brave resistance going on that gets overlooked . So thanks Angelo for all your efforts I as a English man salute you brother

[@JMatrx]

As an italian, as usual you uncover stuff that was long forgotten even here, unless you consult some historian or TV randomly talks about such occurencies. Thanks for your effort.

[@sergiopiparo4084]

My Grandfather served in the Italian Army he was in North Africa. I learned something new. Thanks for this video on my B-Day

[@df4250]

As an Italian, this was a slice of history that I was not aware of. I admire your factual presentation. I'd also be interested in your accounts of Italian deployments in Russia and Yugoslavia during the second world war and any references to those conflicts.

[@df4250]

@অমল রায় হাওড়া yeah, whatever.

[@df4250]

@অমল রায় হাওড়া Go go eat some dog

[@trajan75]

My father in law was in an Italian Alpine division on the Don River north of Stalingrad. There were 30,000 "Alpini" on the Don. Only 3000 made it back to Italy. It is ironic that while my wife's family and part of my father's family were fighting on one side, my mother's family, Italian Americans, were fighting on the other. Of course they didn't know each other at the time and didn't know that they would be related through marriage in 1975. There were no hard feelings.

[@df4250]

@@trajan75 That tends to emphasise the futility of war - at least wars brought about by the darker side of humanity. Hitler from the point of delusions of his racial supremacy and Mussolini from his delusions about resurrecting the Roman Empire with an ill equipped, out of date, poorly resourced and for the most part, insufficiently trained military force. It's good that there are no hard feelings, but who knows the true feelings of those that went through that horror.

[@trajan75]

@অমল রায় হাওড়া Jerk. It was not my father who served in the Italian Army it was my father in law. When he got back from the Russian Front he joined the Partisans. His brother, Aldo, was also an Italian Soldier. After the Italian surrender the Germans imprisoned Aldo's unit and sent them to Dachau concentration camp where he was worked to death. Now shove it in a dark place.

[@GabrielUngacta]

This should literally be a movie!!

[@chainsawblue3639]

Last time I was this early Army Group Centre still existed

[@shelbyseelbach9568]

First time I heard someone use this comment such and such was still blah blah blah.

[@incofex6676]

*center

[@henrik496]

@@shelbyseelbach9568 Dont you cry ugly kid.

[@IKMojito]

@@incofex6676 centre** sorry yank

[@mexicoball2529]

It exists just today because of Barbarossa but dies tomorrow lol.

[@stephenwood6663]

I don't envy the Italian officers in command of the cantonments: talk about a no-win situation!

[@nodre6111]

Yo go on my channel and watch my video it gives more insight on the italians that fought the Irish in WW1

[@internetual7350]

@@nodre6111 The Irish wdym? Many Irish fought an the side of the entente the same alliance Italy was a part of so why would there be Italians fighting the Irish in WW1?

[@franznarf]

"Tutto è perduto fuorché l'onore"

[@dougearnest7590]

"I'm surrendering to the Japanese to spare further loss of life." "Let me know how that works out for you."

[@ulrichschmidt5559]

That's exactly what I was thinking... I wonder what happened to the civilians in Tientsin?

[@DeadManSinging1]

@@ulrichschmidt5559 They were probably all raped and murdered anyway. The Italians should have taking as many of those crazy bushido bastards as they could down with them

[@greenockscatman]

The guys stationed in a far-off province to guard a radio station must have thought they were lucky to get such a cushy post. Until it wasn't so cushy anymore.

[@soulstrafer]

You're always blowing us with quality content... Keep 'em coming, cheers!

[@r2gelfand]

The Italian gunboat reminds me of the American gunboat on The Sand Pebbles with Steve McQueen.

[@spudskie3907]

I love that movie!

[@neiltappenden1008]

Great film

[@davidfiorini6416]

Me too!

[@ImperialistRunningDo]

@Michael Green don't break my rice bowl!

[@stevenh8174]

@Michael Green very good film

[@MassimilianoBiagetti]

As an Italian and history lover, I didn't know about these facts

[@vixoaduo7288]

same for me , never ever heard of this ....crazy

[@joycekoch5746]

I think Mark Felton is a time traveler bringing back stories lost or crushed.

[@2011Oly]

When you studied 4 years of history at university focusing on WW2 and having this be news to you 🤦‍♂️.

[@em1osmurf]

my father could tell you how far a headless japanese officer spasmed from the sword. they bet money on it.

[@G1241-g7g]

When?

[@Saeronor]

@DeutschwehR *"Stolen soil"* Correct. Some of that soil was indeed stolen by Frederick II and Frederick William II. Or, if we consider forcing specific groups of people off their land by dishonest bureaucratic BS "stealing" - then Königlich Preußische Ansiedlungskommission in den Provinzen Westpreußen und Posen also applies. Unluckily for the thieves, not enough time had passed and inhabitants of that land didn't really accept their new "masters". And then Germany collapsed in 1918 and thus lost their stolen property. Boo hoo. Starting another war and blaming someone else for it was *clearly* the only option.

[@fjb4932]

University degrees aren't worth the paper they're written on. I respect the one with experience and knowledge of working with their hands. An honest worker ...

[@AndrewAMartin]

It's not like this episode was of any strategic importance. While it is fascinating, it just one small sideshow in a mostly neglected theater (China) in the greater conflict of WW2.

[@pronz72gh85]

Thank you for bringing up this obscure episode of Italian history…

[@tonylaskowski7953]

I’m actually Italian but with a Polish surname. My Grandmother on my Fathers side was pure Sicilian. I am a student both World Wars and after watching this, it makes sense. Human nature is what it is regardless of ethnicity. I have to edit my post and thank you Dr. Felton for filing in these gaps of forgotten history.

[@ashishhkumarr994]

People : We know everything about ww2 Mark : Hold my beer 👀

[@anderstopansson]

MSM : we´ll teach you ALL you need to know.

[@nicolas2419]

I had the same reflexion... WTF... Japan and Italy fought each other in WW2??? I believed the only involvement of Italy in the Pacific war was the Italo-Germano-Japanese submarine Luigi Torelli/UIT-25/I-504!!! :O

[@Psychol-Snooper]

Italian Fascists fought Greek Fascists in WW2 as well! XD

[@bobsjepanzerkampfwagen4150]

You cant know everything about it even all the info that is known is far to much now let alone everything that is unkown and was being held back

[@robertandrews6915]

What is it with people and these stupid memes.

[@mirola73]

I have read and watched many WW2 books and documentaries, but Mark Felton never ceases to surprise me with things I have never heard of. Thank you !

[@leno4920]

Mr Felton, you are creating a superbly presented historical resource. To say you are rather good at this is akin to saying that Ronaldo is rather good at Football.

[@Nolligan]

I've lived in Tianjin for 10 years and have visited the former Italian concession many times and now it's a popular tourist destination full of Italian style restaurants. After the events so brilliantly described by Mark, Tianjin was liberated by the 3rd Battalion of the 7th Division, US Marine Corps on October 1st 1945 as part of Operation Beleaguer. The US Marines received a rapturous reception from the local population. On October 6th General K E Rockey accepted the surrender of 50,000 Japanese troops stationed in and around Tianjin. However, the peace was not to last as on the same day a unit of engineers sent to clear roadblocks were fired upon by approximately 40 - 50 Chinese troops, later identified as Communists, forcing them to withdraw. Three marines were wounded. (Source: The United States Marines in North China 1945 - 1949 By Henry I Shaw Jnr)

[@tylerfoss3346]

Nolligan, now that (actions in China after formal Japanese surrender) is some more history that needs to be remembered. Hopefully, Dr. Felton can enlighten us on this sometime.

[@joeylawn36111]

Commies always causing trouble....

[@herrakaarme]

Communists have always known how to show gratitude and hospitality.

[@johnbeaulieu2404]

The US Marines never had a 7th Division, likely it was the 3rd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment. General Rockey commanded the 1st Marine Division at the end of the war, and the 7th Marines was one of its Regiments.

[@Nolligan]

@@johnbeaulieu2404 Thank you very much for the correction, I misunderstood the source which simply referred to 3rd battalion 7th marines. Having done some more searches there's actually quite a bit of information about this available online. For those who are interested I recommend 'Tientsin at war' by Chris Hagen. www.cshagen.com/category/tientsin-at-war/

[@Nobodynewduh]

Mark Felton is the best historian alive. I never watch WWII documentaries anymore, they're all the same. Mark brings out the things no one ever talks about. Good on you Mark, you're the best.

[@nopan362236]

The videos about the really obscure historical events are often the most interesting.

[@cipwreck68]

My Nonna was station on an Auxiliary in the Adriatic and I’ve read dozens of books regarding Italian involvement during WWII and I NEVER knew of any of this. Excited to do some research now

[@thearchibaldtuttle]

Do you own Harry‘s Bar?

[@slomo4672]

Not knowing what nonna means, I looked it up and found it's what Italians call grandma. I'm Chinese and we say nainai which rhymes with bye-bye.

[@ubb262s]

I've been studying the events of WW2 since I was a child , and I'm in my fifties, never knew about this , thank you Professor Felton

[@SirAntoniousBlock]

Me: What if the Japanese fought the Italians during WW2 lol. Mark Felton: Funny you mention that.....

[@robert2935]

Who would win 1941 British navy vs 1941 Japanese navy?

[@jimmyjones9775]

Robert 29 It’s a good fight, but I’d bet on the Japanese. They had way more aircraft carriers and way more fanatic dedication. Japanese forces wiped the floor with the British on the land as well. Only the USA had the industrial might to go toe to toe with the Japanese in air sea and land combined.

[@SirAntoniousBlock]

@@robert2935 British would've won in the Atlantic the Japanese in the Pacific so it would've gone to penalties.

[@i_nameless_i-jgsdf]

@@robert2935 The British would not be able to win fighting the Japanese infront of their house while UK is located many miles away. Unlike the US the British would have to travel around either Africa or south America to fight Japan and that would take months so Japan will alwyas be more prepared and their reinforcement would arrive wayyy faster.

[@robert2935]

The British Navy can use the Suez Canal and meet the Japanese. The Japanese Navy can use the ports in occupied France. This is all hypothetical if America never entered the war.

[@mymorningjacket3436]

The level of detail on these vids is insane. So many battles and different events that I never even heard about is crazy why did I take me so long to find this channel ? keep up the great work.

[@Mancada100]

Mark; thanks for an amazing video. I am a WWII buff and I had no idea of this obscure episode. In an age where crappy "influencer" content is the sad rule, people like you truly restore balance to the internet. Keep the good fight!

[@paulkirkland3263]

Even for a channel that specializes in the obscure and forgotten aspects of WW2, this video is quite a revelation. Thank you.

[@TheGeezzer]

Some of the best documentaries on KZbin are done by this guy. Well done, very professional presentation and great narration as always.

[@aurathedraak7909]

I absolutely love forgotten wars, because most historians won't or didn't know or mentioned this.

[@chrissimmonds3734]

I had not heard of the Italians in the Far East, an excellent piece of obscure yet fascinating history, thank you for researching this aspect of the war.

[@yousef501st6]

The Italians were certainly brave and resilient against the japanese

[@colddarkness1798]

And they lose again lol

[@mr.legion8591]

The Italians fought valiantly during World War 2, but they don't talk about it because history is written by the winners. I suggest you to look for how the Italians fought in North Africa, initially they destroyed the British and would have won if the Americans had not given the Sherman and various equipment. Secondly, the Italian airborne brigade Folgore fought to the end of all ammunition and supplies, while its German allies left the Italians to die in the desert to cover their escape. Both General Montgomery and Rommel had a high esteem for Italian soldiers

[@mr.legion8591]

@@colddarkness1798 The Italians fought better than many other nations. just for curiosity where are you from?

[@Sam-sw7sw]

@@colddarkness1798 How were they supposed to win under these circumstances?

[@tortozza]

@@mr.legion8591 says the Italian

[@johnharrington1800]

Mark Felton has done it again. I learn something new in every episode. So thoroughly researched.

[@ottovonbismarck2443]

Another - no longer unknown - fascinating story I've never heard of. Thank you !

[@TheAnnoyingEditor]

FINNALY SOMEONE MENTIONS IT THEY NEVER MENTIONED THE BATTLE IN WIKIPEDIA THIS IS GREAT

[@ekevanderzee9538]

"They"??? You know it's Wilipedia right? You. Can. Make. Your. Own. Entries.

[@TheAnnoyingEditor]

@@ekevanderzee9538 well i could but i had absolutely no info about this battle cause i couldnt find anything about it so yeah i couldnt really make a wiki page and i didnt want too

[@Robin____]

Who gives a fuck about the CIA controlled Wikipedia.

[@arnowisp6244]

@@ekevanderzee9538 The fact this doesn't exist on Wikipedoa tells you how very unknown this was.

[@MrMenefrego1]

Just amazing, Mark! I have been studying all aspects of WWI and WWII and, yet again you have discovered incidents unknown to myself and, I am sure, many others! Outstanding work!

[@kingjoe3rd]

Here we go, Felton surprises me with more stuff I never knew about.

[@lc9929]

I love the music at the beginning. It means I'm about to learn something.

[@peteroca6737]

The amount of information, including little or completely unknown information to most of us,that Dr. Felton can and does provide for us is absolutely amazing.👏👏👏👍

[@johnsmith-jk5pz]

Il Maresciallo Bagoglio l'aveva detto nel proclama " Esse ( le forze italiane), però reagiranno ad eventuali attacchi da qualsiasi altra provenienza." E' quello che hanno fatto.

[@Marcusjnmc]

thanks

[@damyr]

Japan vs Italy? Foreal!? Now this is just pure flexing, doctor Felton.

[@perplacymp]

Not to brag but; the French-Danish war in The Far East. www.goodreads.com/book/show/20480548-et-aar-i-siam

[@rezang5026]

It's not surprising really.. Italian even fought Italian in 1943..

[@occhiodisauron25]

@@rezang5026 it's called Italian Civil War (1943-1945)

[@positivopropositivoRoberto]

Thank you for having clearly dealt with this topic that is not studied at school.

[@JohnDoe-on6ru]

300 Italian infantry: Exist Japan, with over 6,000 troops: "WE NEED REINFORCEMENTS!"

[@honoraryanglo2929]

Should have just sent those guys to take Greece and North Africa

[@asininkelpin1292]

That was not said or implied anywhere in the video, dumbáss :I

[@Cezko]

@@honoraryanglo2929 bro penso che siamo meglio pochi ed in difesa (Caporetto non conta) che molti ed in attacco...

[@gavinmilller6201]

@@asininkelpin1292 Ooooooooohhhhh

[@apc9714]

@barefoot arizona laughs in USA and USSR

[@jimmybaker2845]

I have many, many books and have seen countless documentary's on WW 11 and had never heard about the Italians and Japanese . Great video. Learn something new every day.

[@perpotet4629]

Today I learned that there is a world war 10.

[@Nuck_Chorris69]

This guy is a time traveler

[@kalypso4755]

@@Nuck_Chorris69 lmaooo

[@iandonachie9549]

Honestly well impressed with your productions... you have an iconic music introduction plus a voice which is clear, authoritative and easy to follow, how some major production house has not signed you up is a mystery. Follow many of your productions because its easy to understand, clear voice, not to fast or slow and makes the information easy to digest. Keep it up and one day your big break will come.

[@SakiniCZ]

Now that´s something most people did not hear about, this is how a real KZbinr works.

[@SD-mw7sc]

True

[@josephstevens9888]

Incredible! I never knew about this part of the Pacific Theater during WW2. I knew that Italian submarines performed shuttle mission between Japan and Axis Europe, but I never heard about the clashes between Italian and Japanese ground forces. Thank you Mark for another fantastic production. Mark Felton Productions is my #1 go to site on KZbin! I look forward to future releases. Take care!

[@marxfelix3973]

Oh! I am Italian and I have studied a lot about the Second World War, but it is the first time I hear about these events! Thank you Mark!

[@luigidisanpietro3720]

"The best way to fight an enemy is to be a friend to him once you are nearly beaten." -Luigi Tolentino

[@feden6840]

You just quoted yourself lol

[@em1osmurf]

@@feden6840 it's still good

[@roryobrien4401]

I like that one Luigi. I'll tell you another popular Italian saying from the Renaissance time that has a lot to do with soldiers' attitudes: "O Francia o Spagna, basta che si mangia" basically meaning "Whether it be France or Spain, what we need is to eat".

[@dyhockane7506]

Citarsi da solo è quel tipo di sicurezza in me che mi manca ahahhahahah sei un grande

[@feden6840]

@@em1osmurf Yes yes, I just find it funny

[@kostas1969]

episode absolutely unknown to me about the Italian war. thank you so much. another to add to many others in the tragedy of Italian soldiers guilty abandoned to themselves in foreign territory at the signing of the armistice of September 8th 1943

[@jensenwilliam5434]

Thank you mark!!!!

[@ColinH1973]

I love it when I see a title beginning 'The Forgotten.........' because I know that I am in for another fantastic Mark Felton learning experience! Thanks Mark 👍.

[@WaybackHistoryChannel]

Dr. Felton, another outstanding video on a another rarely discussed topic! Thank you so much for dedicating your life to this kind of research. Your channel helped inspire me to create my own channel in my free time to document the history of geopolitics. Actually one of the first videos I ever did was on the rise, height, and fall of the Tianjin Concessions, including Italian Tientsin. Again I’d like to stress that without the inspiration to dig into niche topics provided by actual historians such as yourself, none of the research I’ve done and content I’ve produced would have ever been possible. This video of yours in particular is deeply of interest for me, given my previous interest in the topic, but no matter what you research you always make your presentation complete and interesting. Thanks again!

[@luciusvorenus9445]

Fantastic presentation on an obscure piece of history. Thank you!

[@Misel982001]

well done Mark. I love your channel and what you have to offer us.

[@DonatoColangelo]

I am Italian and I had never, never!, heard of this story. Thank you, sir. I’ll make some research on the topic, it’s utterly unspoken of here in the country.

[@2001cavador]

Thank you so much Mark your stories are so informitive. This is stuff they NEVER taught in any schools curriculum of modern history.

[@mittalkumar4229]

This was completely unexpected, I admire your expertise on historical events. 🤓

[@legalvampire8136]

This video answers questions I had never even thought to ask. Italian performance in World War II continues to mystify me. Sometimes they seem to have fought with skill, determination and effective equipment; other times as against Wavell in the first part of the North African campaign they seemed near hopeless.

[@unknow11712]

its because of the fascism form of govern , when you decide your offircers based on loyalty over competence , you end up with a mess . and considerate that fascism was not realy something that all italian embraced , they forced theyr way in power , and were way less popular than the nazi party in germany . you can see this by the fact that italy was realy fast to surrend and switch side , simply because fascism lost theyr military presence , there was noone to suppress the political opposition .

[@HongTran-be8up]

O@@unknow11712

[@jacopofolin6400]

It depends on the commanders, were there were good there were great succes( like X mas, rare cases of good italian commander or the italian troops under Rommel) but mostly weren't( in africa Graziani, the commander of the fleet was a traitor and the best visconti prasca that can't even invade greece

[@jacopofolin6400]

@@unknow11712 true too

[@Commandos9]

et's say that the Anglo-American historical literature of the post-war period was not very tender with Italy. Many defeats caused by the Royal Italian Army preferred to forget them, or to say that it was the Germans who fought and won. Only in recent years has this racism tended to disappear. Ah, and something else also matters, the campaign of Italy for the Allies, the famous Axis soft belly was the longest and that gave the Allied Command more problems. Better to put Italy and Italians under the carpet and not think about them anymore.

[@The105ODST]

Man the Italians do sure switch sides.

[@rexdaylawn1609]

France that switched twice

[@comradekenobi6908]

thanks tovarich

[@davideb.4290]

@Daver G First France vs Germany Then Vichy France allied Germany then France against Germany again

[@TEA-fj3ut]

When they realized their fate could be starving to death & beaten in a death camp many fell in line with Tojo.

[@chappy2121]

@@davideb.4290 Vichy is an area of France though not France in general

[@dariomanfredi7480]

Very interesting and little known portions of WWII, thanks Mark. Only negative remark: despite the common refrain, Italy never "switched sides", as there was no "Italy" anymore. Fascist Italy simply lost the war (and formally surrendered in '43), while a civil war rampaged and divided the country roughly in two. The southern part generally collaborated with the Allies that had defeated the fascists (the Allies had outnumbered the Italians 4 to 1, by the way), and the northern part was split between partisan resistance and support to Nazi Germany. As history fans, it's important to be precise

[@pixelghostclyde8717]

It's actually even more complicated than that; the Kingdom of Italy surrendered in 1943 with the Armistice (and the Italian Co-Belligerant Forces fought under Allied command), but the Nazis installed a regime (the Italian Social Republic) which only surrendered a week before Nazi Germany (and spurred the insurrection of people of all political colors, from Savoia loyalists to Communists). As neither country technically survived World War 2 (the RSI going the way of the dodo, and the Kingdom turning into a Republic itself), and Italy went through a very half-assed process of de-fascistization (with people like Rodolfo Graziani getting involved in Republican politics) it's a distinction that escapes most.

[@darioa.5381]

Studiato storia col Trota? Quando ci siamo arresi l'Italia fascista era già caduta. Senza che nessuno protestasse, anzi quando il re fece arrestare Mussolini il 25/07 la gente scese in piazza a festeggiare. Quindi Guerra civile secondo chi? Il 90% degli Italiani che aveva festeggiato a Luglio e che dopo l'8 settembre tifava per gli alleati? La stragrande maggioranza dei soldati italiani prigionieri che rifiutarono di aderire alla RSI? L'Italia settentrionale è stata invasa e occupata dai tedeschi, che avevano ricevuto l'ordine di trattare l'Italia "come un qualsiasi paese occupato". Risposta di Hitler a una precisa domanda di Kesserling. In pratica prendere tutto quello utile a sostenere lo sforzo bellico tedesco e farci morire di fame. In caso di ritirata distruggere tutte le infrastrutture e le industrie. La reazione di chi ha cercato di fermarli voi la chiamate "guerra civile", dando dignità ai collaborazionisti che li hanno aiutati.

[@pixelghostclyde8717]

​@@darioa.5381 a me sembra che rispondere in italiano in una conversazione in inglese mi sembra mancare un filino di bon ton. Ad ogni modo, è un dato di fatto che è esistito uno stato, la Repubblica Sociale Italiana, che non riconosceva l'armistizio dell'8 Settembre, e controllava buona parte del territorio italiano (tanto che si parla di un "regno del Sud" che, per contro, aveva il possesso solo di una parte minima del territorio che reclamava). Indubbiamente si trattava di uno stato fantoccio, come quello di Pétain nella Francia meridionale e di Quisling in Norvegia. Il "caso italiano" è unico proprio perchè mentre in Francia la resistenza fu, tutto sommato, un fenomeno minoritario, e in Norvegia (e, se vogliamo, in Germania e in Austria) praticamente inesistente - noi avemmo la forza di opporci, e opporci in tanti. Normalmente gli storici descrivono tali fenomeni come "guerra civile", ed è solo per un certo desiderio di "passar oltre" che invece in Italia si è poi fatto altro, lasciando purtroppo la porta aperta al riciclo di personaggi come il già citato Graziani, e i vari Valerio Borghese ed Almirante, che poi si sono fatti una "nuova vita" nell'Italia repubblicana anzichè trovarsi, come avrebbero meritato, il collo in un cappio. No, l'RSI non è stata ahimè solo un prodotto dell'occupazione tedesca; c'erano tanti (forse troppi) italiani che l'hanno sostenuta, e nel fare ciò non si sono fatti problemi a trucidare i loro compatrioti, ai quali, nel non riconoscere ciò, non facciamo che un disservizio e una profonda ingiustizia. Che poi il neofascismo abbia parlato per anni di "guerra civile" per sostenere che ci fossero anche italiani che volevano il Fascismo, beh, quello è un altro discorso. Ma credo che non bisogni lasciare che i giochini spregevoli di certa gente ci impediscano di riconoscere la brutalità del conflitto interno con il quale l'Italia si è liberata del Fascismo. Di guerra civile parlavano anche i partigiani, del resto. Forse però chi dice che gli italiani "tifassero per gli Alleati", come se si fosse trattato di una partita di calcio e non di un conflitto con il suo costo in vite umane, ha una visione troppo superficiale della nostra storia.

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@@darioa.5381 ovviamente dati istat