Jay Vine Reveals How Jonas Vingegaard Broke Pogacar

[@denisesayer9225]

Pog didn't have that bad a time trial - he put time into everyone but Jonas - Jonas just had an unbelievable TT.

[@Nicoztrike]

I Agree . The stage 17 though he was bad

[@Lockeness86]

The time trial was irrelevant in the end. He lost 2023 in the same way he lost in 2022. Massive blow up in a mountain stage at elevation after chasing bonus seconds and sprint finishes.

[@badsamaritansofficial6704]

With the emphasis on unbelievable. From someone who can't TT in top 10 to suddenly do a steady effort at 7.6w/kg. I find it fascinating people still believe jumbo is clean.

[@Nicoztrike]

@@badsamaritansofficial6704 you have to compare apples to apples . It wasn't any TT. It was a hard mountain TT in week 3 of the hardest grand tour . He did the same the year before but sat up on the last 2k to give the win to his teammate and still blew Tadej with 20 odd seconds . At that point it's way more about preparation and current form than actual TT credentials . If one team isn't clean then it's the same for the others . But it's the same as saying that if one of your colleagues is an alcoholic, then everyone that works with them is an alcoholic.

[@Nicoztrike]

@@badsamaritansofficial6704 also he didn't do 7.6 watts pr kg in the whole TT. It's was only for 13 min 21 sec .effort on the last climb.. and it was also an estimate

[@pierrex3226]

Super interesting. Jay is super composed and thoughtful, that was super nice to watch, kind of like Alex Dowsett. Great to hear TSS and form metrics used in strategic terms like that.

[@anthonyR13]

Super

[@axelmogr]

Visma were always gonna be attacking Pogi relentlessly, UAE knew this & prepared. What they didn't know was that Visma had a strategy for winning the TdF, specifically targeting stage 16 (the TT) and stage 17 (high mountains). They literally put all their eggs into these two baskets & came out on top. It's all in the Amazon Prime documentary about their 2023 season - highly recommended watch.

[@martinkirilov4785]

That's not available other than in a few countries is it?

[@axelmogr]

@@martinkirilov4785 VPN ;)

[@giffordnavarro3940]

​@@martinkirilov4785 vpn bro

[@johnpyle2]

It this whole documentary is so frustrating. I can’t even find a bootleg version online and an American won the vuelta…..I think when Tour de France unchained comes out on Netflix that will be our change to get some behind the scenes footage.

[@axelmogr]

@@johnpyle2 vpn dawg

[@MEB939]

I remember Pog in an interview stressing “Visma didn’t crack me, I cracked myself”. It must mean a lot to him that it wasn’t that he couldn’t respond to an all-out attack, he blacked out on his own. Still, Visma did ride the perfect Tour to break him over the three weeks.

[@Shadowboost]

Jonas was saving energy almost every stage compared to Pog who was doing for bonus seconds.

[@Enrain2233]

This is bullshit. When Pog was sprinting to get bonus seconds do you think jonas was just chilling? Hell no, he was also sprinting to get to the finish but just lacks pog's explosiveness.

[@freddieevans4906]

jonas was also doing a max effort for the bonuses he just doesn't have pogs punch. pog should always use his crazy punch to his advantage, he just simply didn't have enough training in the legs

[@blackdeadtiger]

@@freddieevans4906 he didnt just have a cold day🤣 you will see prime pogacar on cold day

[@rossbroomfield5199]

Compared to overall energy expenditure through a stage I don't think thats adds up to much - also its not as if Jonas was not also going for the bonus seconds. Lets be generous and say Pogi does 15 seconds at 1500 watts at a bonus sprint. thats 22.5kJ (kj=(w*s)/1000). In easy sprint stages riders burn 700kJ per hour close to 3,000 overall across the stage. Even if pogi does 4-5 of those sprints a stage it's not going to have a big impact. Jonas came in fitter - is generally better suited to massive energy expenditure over the three week grand tours and longer harder hard steep mountain stages - pogi was always going to ship time on col de la loze.

[@Shadowboost]

@@freddieevans4906 no he wasn't. He only went for one, and he got it. Pog using his punch burns matches all week long. It's obvious to anyone watching, you can go look at Horner's stage analysis every day. Jonas is content to sit on Pog's wheel because he knows that when it comes down to really having to turn up the wick on a long climb, Pog won't have the energy anymore in week 3

[@stoempert]

While Vine's arguments sound plausible we also have not 1 but 2 back to back TdF's to go on. I'm not saying Vingegaard is the better GT rider outright but the burden of proving otherwise is in Pogi's court imo.

[@stoempert]

@finiteautomata3888 that's what i hinting at :)

[@TheRealBlueSwan]

@finiteautomata3888 Yes, coupled with the fact that Jonas never seems to have an off day. When he's not at his best he only loses seconds, not minutes.

[@claire2088]

how it all changes every season! reading this in Oct 2024 no one could argue that Pogi didn't put on a pretty solid show for proof that's not the case. (I know Ving was injured earlier this year, but he also said he put out his best ever numbers this year in the tour so he'll need to improve somehow to challenge 2025 Pogi)

[@AlexeiRamotar]

The time trial wasn’t bad, Pogačar was actually great that day, it was only that Vingegaard was superhuman. Pogačar’s two bad days were Stages 5 and 17. Stage 5 was a surprise, considering it was not a “hard” climb and it was a downhill then flat finish.

[@Jeppeo1]

Dude. Pogi called stage 17 "one of my worst days on the bike"

[@adamcurpier]

Exactly, great explanation ❤

[@josh33172]

Wrist injury is not the same as a knee injury. He was back on the bike, minimally the trainer early on. However, I agree that is what JV did to ‘break him’ But that only accounts for one TDF

[@RudiDwiHartanto]

these cerebral convos are nice

[@abuckeye26]

I dont see how comparing his knee injury to Pogs wrist is even in the same realm lol facts are Pog has cracked at some point in every tour hes ridden in even the 2 hes won.

[@DerAusdauersportler]

Ever trained on a bike using a power meter? Do you know CTL and TSS? In case you do you would understand why a low CTL at the start of a grand tour would cause high TSS on each stage when the race is exceptionally fast. And you would immediately know why you get tired fast and cannot recover compared to the riders started with a perfect training program and high enough CTL around 150. And it does not really matter why you did not manage to ramp up the fitness aka CTL in the first place, a broken knee or wrist can do the same job.

[@Woohampshire9945]

Idk if he was flawless on col de loze?

[@BrianDamgaard]

I think this is wrong. The moment was the attack on Mount Ventoux from Jonas Vingegaard in 2021. Vingegaard did not win the tour this year but his attack showed that Pogacar was vulnerable on the steep climbs. The rest is history.

[@krisbowditch827]

Good call 👍

[@gerfgerable]

Seems like a really nice guy

[@chrishogg9235]

Great insight thanks..... lets see if JLB can do the same this year. "I think not?"

[@secretagent86]

What is TSS.?

[@pierrex3226]

Training stress score. If you have heart rate and power, you get a TSS from every bike ride you do. Every platform you upload stuff to then tracks it. The chronic load he talks about is more advanced metrics, intervals.icu , elevate, training peaks track that stuff. Tracks how fast you're digging yourself into a hole basically.

[@miguelpfeffermann]

Basically an algorithm (unscientific and therefore inaccurate) of how much relative training stress you’re putting your body through. Nice for a brought overview if you don’t have much of an idea. But not used to determine stress on a professional level. They are far more advanced than that. In the end: just listen to your body

[@Aslan_1993]

Yeah but pog didn’t do nothing 1 month. He was on a recumbent bike, treadmill, etc

[@Kroelle72]

This years TdF will be interesting. If Jonas manages to win again, I’m sure Pogi fans will quickly excuse his loss by saying that riding the Giro exhausted him, and maybe even that Jonas’ broken ribs and clavicle was a minor injury compared to the wrist injury of Pogi the year before. It’s gonna be fun to watch..

[@Shadowboost]

Jonas did the Tour, essentially no riding for a couple of months, and then a huge stomach bug for the first week of the Vuelta, and could have still dominated the Vuelta. These are tons of excuses. Yeah, let's make Pog work like a dog, of course that's the strat. Same thing as 2022. Jonas's peak numbers are higher than Pog's for long climbs and he has shown a TT that I have not seen Pog at the level. Not to mention he descends better.

[@zerog4261]

Relax, bro. It wasnt an excuse, just a fact. Did it mean he would have won it if he didn't have the injury? No. But it was a big talking point before, if hed be even in the tour.

[@swissbiggy]

@@zerog4261 Check your numbers please....Vingegaard did have 26 race days before the Tour de France 2023 and Pogacar 22. It is a mistake that is made by many people, but actualy Vingegaard has been racing more races than Pogacar for three years in a row. And your statement about Vingegaard not having raced for months before the Tour 2023 is also wrong, he won the bloody Dauphiné Libèré a few weeks before the Tour started, while Pogacar was training at altitude...

[@zerog4261]

@@swissbiggy you're replying to the wrong guy bro

[@swissbiggy]

@@zerog4261 whooops sorry mate ✌️😉

[@zerog4261]

@@swissbiggy 😂👍

[@scarfacejvd]

He told Sigma Sports during his coffee ride video that he overfueled when he was dropped in last year's TDF.

[@iamthedalilama]

So why did he loose the year before?

[@tubetiz]

Probably because uae is not good enough to ride for him

[@zerog4261]

Jumbo rode him down and isolated him if you remember. It was attack after attack. But thats bike racing

[@leonehardt2378]

@@zerog4261only in stage 11, what about stage 18?

[@silverarrowslk]

You mean ‘lose’ instead of loose as that’s the opposite of tight 🤣

[@kasperrieberg3495]

@@zerog4261 On Hautacam he wasn’t attacked by Jumbo, he just cracked in the Jonas wheel

[@zerog4261]

Cant wait till weekend. Gonna be some grt football. Dont know who Arsenal are versing 😂😂

[@sarahannegan4605]

ha I think he was out of his depth there 😂

[@zerog4261]

@@sarahannegan4605 😂 It was like an old fast show sketch. Very nice guy though, hope he has a good season.

[@liamgaul]

Is the verses terminology maybe an Australian thing? It's not football specific so I doubt anyone's getting that wrong because they're not a football fan.

[@zerog4261]

@@liamgaul he was saying versing though. 😂

[@liamgaul]

@@zerog4261 yeah I know... Because maybe that's a legit thing to say in Australia even if you're a massive football fan.

[@annukun7318]

what is CTL?

[@kylebreier2812]

Chronic training load.

[@buchanan8624]

@@kylebreier2812 Cumulative training load

[@AshKetchhum]

POG vs Jumbo

[@fredperry523]

TDF 2024 will be won/lost in the last week just as the last two were - the rider and team that prepares best for this will win.

[@zerog4261]

Very interesting

[@Maestrodeluniverso]

What is CTO?

[@cyc00000]

Chief technology officer, most large companies have one, they're basically responsible for the tech. It's quite an important position.

[@karstenkristensen4718]

Jonas had a bad injury this year, so Pogy might have a shot at the title. (My money will still be on Jones, hopefully he will recovers intime)

[@smgyn]

3:44 If it is possible, I would make the rest of the team match pogi's performance or atleast get close to it. I think the reason he's getting beatin is that Jonas has numbers, especially WVA and Roglic in the last 2 TDFs.

[@karstenkristensen4718]

Pogy has always been 2nd to Jonas. (Except the year Jonas was not Captain of his team)

[@silverarrowslk]

It’s no big mystery for Pogacar couldn’t properly prepare due to the wrist injury.

[@selaz685]

Hes just the worse climber unfortunately.

[@zwtvchannel]

@@selaz685get real 😂

[@selaz685]

@@zwtvchannel You have to be completely delusional to think otherwise

[@selaz685]

@@zwtvchannelim dead im gone 😢😢

[@drejcerzen200]

@@selaz685 Pogačar uci #1

[@barryhambly7711]

Jumbo always have ??? over them from me they never have a bad day and that is not real. They might need to be put in the washing

[@ruiteixeira6299]

No, Pogacar did it to him self since de begining he sprinted for every second.

[@RT-far-T]

The ....... weren't enough for Mauro Gianetti's boy this time. All this "superhuman" rubbish. There's no such thing. Gianetti is why Pogacar wins so much, and we all know what Gianetti is famed for. The injury wrecked that .......addled plan.

[@cyclingfreak56]

Jesus, what cheaters!Howdare jumbo Visma race to win and can we have some cheese with that whine please?

[@kovar2344]

Nowadays riders are hired based on the numbers they can produce, not the results. So you end up with peloton of riders that only know one thing. Pedal hard for long time. Maybe we need to ban powermeters in competition.

[@liamgaul]

Yeah the top scouts and coaches are being tricked by data and have it all wrong. The real winners obviously put out less watts. The arrogance to think you know better

[@tubetiz]

Going to happen again in 2024

[@troycollett8540]

I don’t know, pog is in red hot form

[@elonif4125]

@@troycollett8540So he was the last two years

[@troycollett8540]

@@elonif4125 no he wasn’t last year did you actually listen to Jay explain it

[@larshansen4557]

Well jonas seems on form to , untill now je has won everything he is doing

[@nanxihins]

Hhhhmmmmmm now it's gonna get interesting given the table has turned last wk

[@marccarter1350]

Pog I here is still clean. Drug free. It's Rice and Juice that lead to these super human efforts :-) Cycling will never be clean.

[@elonif4125]

No, it’s not rice and juice, it’s riding 30 hours every week, being insanely talented and living your entire life optimizing performance on the bike. I’m not saying he isn’t doping since I have no way of knowing but it’s not like these guys just take super soldier serum. I myself have gotten to a reasonably good cycling level with far less training and no talent so these performance aren’t unbelievable at all.

[@marccarter1350]

@@elonif4125lol! They were saying the same stuff with all the other dopers throughout the years. Remember Lance Armstrong, people were saying the same things about him. Its the same pattern on a loop. Not only do they do a great job of hiding their use, they all so do a great job of fooling people like you into defending them with a passion. Cycling has never been clean, never will be.

[@dustind9242]

@@marccarter1350 No sport is clean. Female gymnasts start state sponsored doping programs at the age of 15

[@miguelpfeffermann]

Imagine being this focused on numbers calculated by an unscientific, unindividualised algorithm. Pro teams are definitely way more advanced than that.

[@zwtvchannel]

It’s the best we all have at the moment. There is also WK05 which no doubt they run. The point Jay made about TP has merit and backs up to how he performed. Also, with Pog he just loves racing. Training for Classics vs The Tour is far different training than when you add the wrist injury it delayed the training needed. Pog detonated for many reasons.

[@bronzilla5]

Pogi said he ate too much (because the internet pushes 120g 140g 160g carbs/hour) and his body said no today. It's fascinating how your body can shut down if you eat too much

[@liamgaul]

Yeah Pogi only ate 120g carbs/hr because he's reading KZbin comments and Reddit threads 🙄. Maybe he should get a coach who reads sports science and nutrition research... Oh wait

[@cyc00000]

But he ended up riding like he was in ketosis.

[@liamgaul]

@@cyc00000 and that's because he ate too many carbs because he was pressured by people on the internet...?

[@cyc00000]

@@liamgaul The internet is horrible, people are mean. Look the reality is, if he had tried intermittent fasting in the third week, he likely would have won. It was his race to lose, seriously.

[@liamgaul]

@@cyc00000 hahahaha very good

[@lundepwnz]

the uae copium is crazy lol

[@Kawaiiraiden]

This year will be the same, pogacar has no chance against the "clean" visma team. And i don't give a f... to what people think i don't trust the visma team integrity... rogilc sacrifice result for more money in his new team but the result will be catastrophic without the visma vitamin...

[@mrsewe417]

We'll se about Roglic. Time will tell. You trust Pogi and his man Gianetti????? What about the moon landing?

[@Kawaiiraiden]

@@mrsewe417 i don't trust pogacar at 100% because i don't trust in a clean sport in general. But i just think he has more talent than vingegaard. It's just my opinion but don't worries trust is another thing