CCC Scams are going too far

[@arminth]

Reminds me of the 9000mAh 18650 Ultrafire cells from ebay, which turned out to be AAA cells and a lot of sand... And it's still available in ebay! Bloody scammers!

[@JerryWalker001]

Yes, exactly my point. You only need to read some of the comments on this video to see why they get away with it.

[@gibbyrockerhunter]

Wow. I have seen some sketchy fake products, but that is up there with using radioactive sand in homeopathic bracelets.

[@BrianG61UK]

Yes, 18650 Lithium more than around 3600mAh simply don't exist yet. I have one marked as 8800mAh that came in a torch. It's as light as a feather and I'd be surprised if it's even as much as 800mAh in reality.

[@adamdavies163]

I had the 'other' style of Ultrafire battery. A pair of them came with a torch. Neither would take a full charge and would only power the torch for about 5 minutes. I carefully peeled off the outer wrap. The cells inside were clearly old failed 18650 pack batteries, complete with spot weld marks where the tabs had once been. They had simply put shiny new end caps on and a new wrap.

[@gibbyrockerhunter]

Was my comment offensive?

[@ericklein5097]

Your average 18650 from the major manufacturers is over 40 grams. 45-47 grams is where most of the quality 3000mAh to 3500mAh cells come in at and perhaps some of the 2500+ mah power cells are also in that low to mid 40’s range. Anything under 40 grams is junk. Wouldn’t even use it. Absolutely not in any kind of tool battery. The only difference between Lipo and Lion on these chargers is 4.10V being used as the max charge voltage for Lion while 4.20V is used for Lipo. All the modern Lion cells (NMC/NCA) are 4.20V max charge voltage. (The programs might also have a difference in minimum discharge voltage but those can vary. Modern lithium ion NMC/NCA are 2.5V or 2.75V almost exclusively. Lipo is typically in the 3.0V to 3.30V range but I haven’t read enough datasheets to be any kind of authority on Lipo) Nothing about the two chemistries is different in their charge/discharge curve. Lipo is just typically a higher C rating due to lower IR but that comes at a cost of the chemistry being more unstable due to the amount of cobalt iirc

[@john_in_phoenix]

I'm happy to hear about both the switch mode power supply, and the Z-80 upcoming videos. The Z-80 has always been my favorite 8 bit CPU. The battery problem is serious and dangerous, thanks for making it more public. More on topic, I tried cheap replacement batteries a few years ago, and found that power to cost ratio usually came out in favor of the OEM battery packs. Add in the likelihood of outright failure out of the box (or first 2 charge cycles) and the "expensive" batteries are well worth the money.

[@carpetbomberz]

Switch mode power supply,... from scratch! I cannot wait to see. 👍

[@stage6fan475]

I wouldn't risk cheap Chinese batteries. I would spend too much anxiety worrying about them burning my house down. Have you seen how many Chinese EV's are spontaneously catching fire? They try to cover up the ones in China, but they can't do that when they export to other countries.

[@JerryWalker001]

Read between the lines :)

[@andymouse]

'Here in my car I can't drive very far' Gary Numan......cheers.

[@bakedbean37]

"Things that are half the thing." John Cooper Clarke.

[@Choober65]

"My situation is dire, My car just caught fire"... Next few lines? Let's make this the " Electric car song" might make the charts 😅

[@andymouse]

@@Choober65 "Electric Car 18650"

[@lauralhardy5450]

The first pack looks very similar to the Aldi special no name that's on sale in Australia. Now you got me thinking, Aldi have a new 1.2kW LiFePhosphate for Au499. Wonder if this one's filled with AA's

[@chattonlad9382]

I've bought several packs from Aldi to strip down and make packs up for my RC planes and so far they have all had good quality Samsung 18650 cells inside.

[@thedogsdiddies8421]

Absolutely ridiculous that the Chinese can sell dangerous products into the UK without any checks or controls and I can't even get a watch battery into Northern Ireland from GB!! Not only that but the Chinese can ship stuff over from China for pennies compared to the many pounds it costs us to send the same item!! There are many good KZbin content creators pointing out how dangerous some of these items are and the consequences for trusting this products in your home around your family.

[@JerryWalker001]

Yes that is an excellent point and I considered mentioning it in the video but decided not to. My company designed devices with lithium cells and the amount of red tape we had to deal with to ship them overseas was insane and many couriers simply refused to ship a single cell from the UK to Anywhere. And yet the Chinese can ship 1000 machines each containing 10000 cells in a single shipment and no one even questions it. We also had to very clearly label each pack with the cell capacity, voltage, type etc but the pack in the video has no markings at all and neither did the box it came in.

[@davideyres955]

Yep China is still benefiting from emerging economy status and a lot of the shipping costs are subsidised, hence the ability to ship for pennies. There is a good video from a chap wiring on liOn fires and the danger they provide. There is a production cycle in the manufacture that is critical for creating a safe battery and I bet that is less than well policed in China. Products produced for a spec and if no one’s monitoring it they will produce whatever you want for what ever price you want. If you just want a low price and ship out as say a drop shipper, they will cut corners as much as you like.

[@Sydney268]

What makes you think they are lipo cells, they look suspiciously like liion to me?!

[@JerryWalker001]

Yes they do look like typical Lion cells but they probably do not contain what you may expect. If I remember I will post a video opening one up before I dispose of them. However that is not really the point of the video. The video is about the unsuitability and low capacity of the cells (whatever the type). During cycling the capacity of the cells was only around 590mAh (even at very low rates).

[@Sydney268]

@@JerryWalker001 well those 18650s being lipo is what intrigued me the most. After watching the video and asking the question I still haven't found out why you think that 😭 With all due respect the rest of the video was fairly predictable - the cheap Chinese battery pack was crap 🤣

[@JerryWalker001]

@@Sydney268 With all due respect watching drone videos is also predictable. If you are not interested then you are not forced to watch.

[@Sydney268]

@@JerryWalker001 Wow Jerry, stalking me now? I did find the video interesting, so much so I even asked a question at the end of watching all the way through - like a good viewer. What I also find interesting is that this seems to have triggered you. All you had to do was say why you think these are lipo cells, or why you no longer think they are, but instead you come back with some defensive egotistical rubbish cleverly avoiding the question to avoid admitting you were wrong - you know, like how politicians do 🤣

[@g.h.190]

Batteries in an rc car I have is 2S 18650 1600 mAh. It specifically says charge with Lipo program if you charge with fast universal rc charger. Supplied charger is slow charge over balancing port.

[@LimbaZero]

Those cheap batteries are usually reused from old laptop battery packs etc. One YT channel made "reviews" of chinese 24V psu from ebay. There caps had markings they were recycled from old electronics. They even used wax to cover those pliers markings before they put new wrapping.

[@JerryWalker001]

These as just very cheap cells. Even old laptop batteries are much heavier that these. The amount of active material in each cell is what dictates capacity which is why I say weight is very indicative of capacity for a specific cell chemistry.

[@madscientisthut]

So then the question for me is: If you by the cheap CCP crap and spend so much time trying to make it better, would it not make more sense to buy something that costs more that has a better quality and works for what it is intended for? Then at least you get to do the job the tools was intended to do instead of fixing said tool.

[@JerryWalker001]

That is a fair point. It really depends on your budget. As I say in the video this tool including battery was cheaper than a battery pack 'kit'. Using this tool as the basis for a battery pack and buying a few cells then you could make a decent 5Ah 18V pack for around half the price of a 'branded' pack. It would only take half an hour to swap the cells. However as you can probably see from the packs I have I generally buy manufacturer packs for my commonly used tools. I mostly buy cheap devices to test them.

[@madscientisthut]

I can see the value in buying them for testing purposes 👍

[@JerryWalker001]

@@madscientisthut Yes I buy a LOT of cheap battery powered devices so that I can remove and test the cells. I have been doing this since I began using the gen1 Li-ION cells 25 years ago in model helicopters and they were very different to the current cells.This is also why I am very sceptical about so called battery technology development where people are expecting to see an order of magnitude increase in energy density. I doubt it will ever happen but if it does imagine an EV with 10 times the amount of stored energy parked in your garage with 10000 cells and may contain just one rogue cell.

[@marcfruchtman9473]

This will continue until sellers are forced to meet quality and truth in advertising (product labeling) requirements. (Or if insufficient then those need to be improved.) I do sort of blame the intermediary companies as well... where the "Store front" is the intermediary for the actual seller. For example, not having a clearly labeled "report" product button with a list of reason why the product needs to be reported. Verifying reports before punishing sellers. Refunding systems in place to ensure products meet their requirements. Not all sellers are "aware" that their product doesn't meet requirements, but after several complaints, they should be "aware" provided that the problem isn't a small percentage of the product. There's a lot that potentially could be done, that isn't. For example, We see the complaints about Falsely elevated Lumen outputs on Flashlights, outrageous lies about Power output on Solar, etc...

[@1kreature]

It could be 48 Wh which would equate to about 2600 mAh at 5x3.7v nominal. I would actually give them the benefit of the doubt here and say they are not actually trying to sneak it in as a model number but have simply labelled the Wh capacity and fumbled it.

[@JerryWalker001]

Lets assume you are correct and that they wanted to indicate Wh rather than 48V meaning 48V like every other pack manufacturer. This does not explain why it only delivers 9Wh or 18% of the indicated value. Perhaps they meant that 18V was actually the % of specified capacity and should have been 18% of 48Wh. Seems unlikely to me. Maybe they should sell it as 500Ah and claim they meant mAh.

[@rogermccaslin5963]

@@JerryWalker001 Who sells a battery that small that is 48 volts? Maybe the typesetter made a mistake and it was supposed to be 18v. Or, maybe it was just an attempt to confuse the customer. My guess is the latter.

[@1kreature]

@@JerryWalker001 Absolutely agree there. I am merely stating that 2600 mAh is a common expected capacity for such cells and it fits well with the "almost labelling". They may themselves have been scammed by the battery supplier though, or may have simply requested even cheaper batteries be used in the pack than initial plans or first samples. The capacity is horrible, no doubt about that. You did however bypass the packs balance circuitry and these cells could have been horribly mismatched. If the pack did not get a chance to balance during a few cycles first then one of the cells may in fact have been almost killed resulting in the poor numbers from the entire pack. Would be interesting to see you run the analyser on each cell in the pack to confirm? That would also give us some idea of how bad the pack and cells are. Maybe they are not even capacity matched?

[@JerryWalker001]

@@1kreature I suggest you watch the next video. Also as I say in the video I balanced the cells and they had 6 full cycles.

[@JerryWalker001]

@@rogermccaslin5963 If you look at the cell frame and control pcb then you can see that the pack was originally designed to be a 10 cell pack. I also have quite a number of 48V (actually 42V) packs. They are fairly common.

[@MD-gc4xq]

CCC cheap Chinese crap

[@ToolinAroundTools]

I know you guys have better consumer protection. Is there not a regularity body that might be interested in this?

[@felixbohmann]

are you charging the li ion cells with the lipo program of the charger? or is that just a generic text on the lcd? my chargers have different settings for lipo and li-ion.

[@JerryWalker001]

They have different voltage limits and peak droop. This charger detects them which is why I used it in this video. As I said I have MANY different battery packs (LIon and LIpo) and I use different programs for them. As I said in the video these were LiPo and NOT Lion.

[@andymouse]

We were told that of the bat :)

[@felixbohmann]

@@JerryWalker001oh sorry, i somehow missed the part where you say that it is lipo. i only know lipos as these plastic bags, or possibly rolls (like in the lithium aa and aaa usb-chargable batteries). did not know that lipo bags come in 18650 style cans. my bad, thanks for clarifying.

[@JerryWalker001]

@@felixbohmann No problem. Some of the cells I have tested do not contain what you would expect. They were in 18650 cans but actually had small lipo flat cells inside with a strip of wood up each side. They looked like normal cells from the outside but had low capacity due to the small cells and the IR was not what you would expect for a Lion. Early Lion cells were also square blocks rather than bags and they still sometimes appear in odd formats.

[@andrewchristiansen8311]

I have a battery meter and was testing with a 3 watt worklight & wass infuriated at the 7 amp batteries they sent that only did 1.8 amps. 5 of the 10 cells didn't work. Case was shorting almost burned my home down. I gave up on ebay black & decker batteries. In 2021 I got a great 3.9 amp for 20$. Now I can only find 3 amps that barely do 2.8. Quality has gone waaaay down. I have stuff from 2015 made in China thats way better.

[@david_pilling]

Interesting video, but your expectations are greater than mine - batteries are one of those things were sellers can't be trusted and that's been the case for a while. Other things have attained this state - low cost video cameras maybe.

[@JerryWalker001]

You missed the point of the video. It has nothing to do with my expectations. I also SPECIFICALLY say that these are scams (ie the sellers cannot be trusted) and that is even in the video title.

[@wayne975]

Be intresting to see a distructive test to see how they burn. Bet these types of products the reason for ebike battery fires??? Just my 2c

[@pigletshut]

I have seen one such video on tube. The guy dropped a spike on lipos and they promptly and spectacularly burst into flames. Did same with LFP in the same vid and nothing.

[@cheshire1494]

thank you for a very informative video

[@mymessylab]

Nowadays it’s very difficult to find high quality things in general. CC has invaded the world. We should BTW don’t forget that high quality things manufactured in the west side of the world have reached prohibitive prices for the most (if still manufactured ). This reminds me Japanese early electronics which then have been improved a lot becoming leaders of the market.

[@JerryWalker001]

I agree and as I say in the video the cheap items can be useful as the basis for something good. For example the battery frame and control board in this pack are available as a kit but the kit costs more than this tool, including the pack. Hence my narrative at the beginning of the video. My main concern is that these cells are finding their way into more expensive or mainstream devices and there is no control over this so we only find out when it is too late.

[@SenileOtaku]

Well culturally the Japanese like to show pride in their work. Early on they may not have had the capability or experience to manufacture high-spec products, but the intent was always to do better. China *used* to have finely made hand-crafted items, but the CCP and it's corrupt leadership has fostered an environment of build-build-build, and quality or even safety be damned. The citizens of China get no benefit from a job well done, and their government is more likely to kill them than thank them. So nowhere in the manufacturing chain is there any incentive to make quality products, especially when some part of that money has to be spent on bribes and kickbacks to government officials.

[@JerryWalker001]

@@SenileOtaku That is all true and I have pointed it all out in previous videos but it does not change the point of my video so it is a straw man argument.

[@orange11squares]

so basically the pack had crappy cells, good to put in the trash.... just replace the cells with proper 18650 cells 2p5s config to get a 20V 4Ah to 6Ah.

[@pigletshut]

Speaking of proper cells, I have 5 brand new Molicel P28As ready to go. Makes one 2.8Ah pack. Just need to source a spent dewalt 2Ah pack for the board. I'll print my own more compact case.

[@BrianG61UK]

Surely, you need a charge-discharge cycle in order to measure the capacity of a battery. Taking a battery in an unknown state and discharging and charging it tells you only how much power it took to charge it, which will be quite a bit more than its capacity.

[@ericklein5097]

Not necessarily. New cells will only take in a couple percent more mAh on average than they discharge. Low internal resistance and you’ll see nearly identical numbers between C and D

[@BrianG61UK]

@@ericklein5097 Only if you charge them quite slowly. That heat you feel as the cells charge and discharge has to come from somewhere.

[@martinda7446]

You have no idea what you will get... It is a throw of the dice. I have had excellent batteries cheaply.. They do exist.

[@JerryWalker001]

I have NEVER had good cheap cells. Maybe you have been lucky,

[@martinda7446]

Not in equipment - loose cells carefully chosen. - I was not clear.

[@JerryWalker001]

@@2L40K I have no idea what you are talking about. These cells give 590mAh at 500mA charge / discharge. I did NOT select these cells for this application they are what were fitting in a tool which draws around 6A. The fact they they are unsuitable for ANY reason is the exact point of the video.