We live in a timeline where some people un ironically think homelander from the boys did nothing wrong. Our species doesn’t deserve subtly right now.
@scoxocs Жыл бұрын
Don't get me started on all the comment threads where folks praise Eric Cartman from South Park for his stance on Disney's wokeness. Who aspires to be a Cartman?
@theforgetfulalchemist Жыл бұрын
And the Boys even lampooned the whole thing with Trump where he said he could shoot someone on the street and still have supporters with Homelander...and some fans still root for him!
@davewaring73 Жыл бұрын
And Tyler Burden was a hero.
@ashthetic_art Жыл бұрын
It's no wonder the Celestial Toymaker could almost destroy humanity simply by amplifying our worst traits.
@tommarsdon5644 Жыл бұрын
Are you suggesting homelander is subtle?
@TheDominatorT100 Жыл бұрын
It also felt a bit wonky when either Donna or Rose told the Doctor he wouldn't understand as a male presenting person. A bit of a strange remark considering he was just a woman. Did anyone else find that odd? Or am I just mistaken.
@louise102nd Жыл бұрын
Well they didn't know about that doctor as far as Donna knows he has yet to regenerate
@brookdevonshire319 Жыл бұрын
@@louise102nd Except, shouldn't they have? I might be misremembering here, but we hear in Wild Blue Yonder and Giggle that due to having the metacrisis, they (Donna definitely, and by extension, maybe Rose too?) could see, at least somewhat, into the doctor's past, which should in theory include Jodie Whitaker. Or at least, that's how I interpret it, that while they had the metacrisis they knew it, and they just forgot some/most of it when the metacrisis left, with only some hints of memory.
@electra_ Жыл бұрын
I think the pronouns discussion happened around the Meep in Star Beast, and so the meta-crisis hadn't been activated again yet (this happens when the Doctor sais the code words in the ship that ends with Binary Binary Binary) so Donna wouldn't have known this until the end of the episode.
@brookdevonshire319 Жыл бұрын
@@electra_ oh, I wasn't on about the pronoun discussion, I was on about the scene at the end where Donna and Rose are saying the doctor wouldn't understand just letting the metacrisis go.
@FunctionallyLiteratePerson Жыл бұрын
Yeah, it was such a weird thing to say. Would a trans man timelord not understand? How about a masc woman timelord who people mistake as a man?
@VerityShush Жыл бұрын
I still take umbrage with the implication, intentional or just as a result of carelessness, that Rose is trans *because* of the metacrisis. I don't vibe with the comment this video responded to, I agree that we should be allowed to be a major plot element and everything else said here in response to it. But it's that one sticking point where they seem to imply Rose was "made trans in utero" by Time Lord gender magic that really throws me and is where I WOULD prefer her being trans because some humans are just trans - still HAVE her gender identity be a major plot point that saves the day, without implying she is that way for any fantastical sci-fi reason. Although....I think I do disagree with one small part of this video. I'm a nonbinary trans woman. I'm both. Saying categorically that Rose isn't nonbinary, despite the episode saying in dialogue that she is, because "she's a trans woman" feels like it brings us back to the whole "nonbinary people don't owe you androgyny" thing - just because she's transfeminine doesn't mean she's not nonbinary and it feels uncomfortable to state plainly that she just *isn't* nonbinary as if this is somehow an obvious conclusion.
@saeedrazavi4428 Жыл бұрын
I agree 100% with this comment
@literaterose6731 Жыл бұрын
As a nonbinary transmasculine person, I co-sign this 100%
@ninaschust3694 Жыл бұрын
Your comment reminds me of a recent video of Vera Wild, who pointed out that NB people are trans people - because trans is an umbrella term. And I think we need more education overall, e.g.-> I also loved Vera explaining that there are demigender people - because that is what I am, but I lacked the vocabulary ❤.
@davidaston5773 Жыл бұрын
I am not going to comment on being trans because I'm not one. But, as a fan of Doctor Who and science fiction I like to theorise on plots and concepts behind whatever it is i.e. Doctor Who, Star Trek or Quantum Leap. If Rose is trans, because of what Donna went through in "End of Time" and Timelord energy, WHY hasn't either: 1. Displayed Timelord abilities? Like if they cut themselves, it automatically heals super quick? 2. They have super high levels of intellect and able to understand concepts which are 1,000s of years ahead of where humanity is at? 3. Both or one of them, have become super rich from inventions which they have derived from the subconscious lament knowledge of the Timelords? 4. Shouldn't Rose be a semi genius? 5. One or both of them creating their own basic time machine? 6. As Donna has encountered aliens, and travelled with one in the form of the Doctor, WHY haven't she or Rose been investigated by UNIT, the CIA or organisations with dubious intentions (Human and otherwise)? 7. Wouldn't Donna or Rose be INVALUABLE to NASA considering their knowledge of planets, races and even technology which is way head of humanity? Never mind explaining why Rose is trans - RTD missed COUNTLESS consequences, good and bad, due to their and most companions having met and travelled with the Doctor. David
@psoma_brufd Жыл бұрын
Indeed, she has the memories of The Doctor and so chose her name, that's all it really needed to be in terms of Time Lord wibbly wobbly stuff, it makes the plot element a bit othering. I would agree with you on her potentially being nonbinary _except_ she is explicitly a trans female character, she is not nonbinary up until that point in the story quite explicitly and when that 'change' occurs, when she says she is "finally me", nothing else changes other than paying lip service to nonbinary people. It would be fine, great even if there was then any semblance of change about her being nonbinary but instead they instantly go right back to her being a woman only, never again in the specials referred to in any nonbinary fashion. One line would've made all the difference "I also like the pronoun they now, it feels me." or something similar to that.
@superpheemy Жыл бұрын
I had the reading of Donna from Wild Blue Yonder that she was reacting as a parent of a trans child who has spent Rose's transition to this point defending her. So when the pronoun gag went off, I wasn't seeing it so much as a gag, but as Donna still being in that headspace of awareness (maybe a bit *over*aware) regarding the employment of pronouns. As established in Star Beast, Rose is still having struggles with acceptance in her school and community and Donna has chosen to become Mama Bear. As she states "I will *descend*!" I'm still super-happy about the three-story arc. Looking forward to Ncuti Gatwa as the 15th incarnation of the Doctor.
@Penguinocalypse Жыл бұрын
Trans gal here. Liked the special a lot but, honestly, thought Rose’s line about Meep pronouns felt like it was written by a non trans persons going “Yes THIS is what trans people are like”. Same with the “Binary and Non binary” bit it just felt a bit, silly… especially followed by the trashing on male presenting persons like hey leave em alone.
@AdrianColley Жыл бұрын
It's another form of the phenomenon of "men writing women".
@aliciakerr7639 Жыл бұрын
Yes it was very silly and imho very lazy writing. I couldn’t care less if one of the characters was a purple tri-gender blob from the planet Triliom, as long as the storyline is good and the character has depth. Unfortunately, it’s very much shallow lip service.
@ki5h0re Жыл бұрын
Conservatives and Terfs will bring up that scene. Every time they talk about pronouns it will be another dig at trans folk.
@CortexNewsService Жыл бұрын
I've heard people say "why do you have to make it (LGBTQ, race, take your pick) political." And I point out that for many of us, our existence is political. Laws are passed to restrict trans existence, publicly funded libraries removing anything that says "gay," districts drawn with the intention of diluting the voting power of Black people, healthcare for literally everyone, is debated in the public sphere and in government like they aren't settled issues. That is politcal. We'll stop being political as soon as our simple existence isn't a topic for political debate.
@velaethia6 Жыл бұрын
As a queer person as a disabled person. I agree. Our very existence is political and it's made me realize that virtually everything is political. Grass is political. Space is political. A mural of a man on a bench in a park is political. Politics inform everything about our world regardless of if we even realize it. Many people considering themselves to be apolitical. But to be "apolitical" is to accept the status quo which is supporting oppression and then a political statement in favor of oppression.
@CortexNewsService Жыл бұрын
@@velaethia6 I think there's a line from Enola Holmes along those lines. To paraphrase, it's easy to be apolitical when the world is already set in your favor
@benfisher1376 Жыл бұрын
Oh gawwwwd the sanctimoniousness. I identity politics is ruining creativity. Even when they put in diverse characters, people still moan that they didn't do it the right way. This is why TV is so bad now, and film. Creative people have to please a minority of whiney perpetual victims. So boring 😴
@arahman56 Жыл бұрын
As always, there's only two genders. Male, and "political". And two sexualities, straight, and "political".
@brockreynolds870 Жыл бұрын
Your existence is not up for political debate. The fact that you are trying to DEFINE the rest of us (I never gave anyone permission to call me cisgendered) is the problem. But as usual, the older generation has to capitulate and allow the younger generation to tell us how to behave, and what we can do, or else we are bad people. When I was young, "queer" was considered a slur, and I still consider it one. At it's root, it means "Strange, or odd"... while "gay" meant happy. It had a more positive connotation, that's why we started using it in the gay community in the 70's. But "queer" is now a hip term for the youngsters, so we just have to swallow our feelings and deal with it. Because in society in general, youth is always supported, and us older people are always thrown away and not given consideration
@locker.535 Жыл бұрын
My teenager is gender-fluid and many of their peers are accepting & don't necessarily focus on this fact about them - but overall in school, community, society - it is very much focused in on and not accepted. I feel strongly that representation (in lots of different forms) is highly important. And let's be honest, Doctor Who is a perfect vehicle for representation, the WHOLE universe and ALL of time to explore? = an opportunity to encounter every kind of being! Love your channel 🥰
@christopherflux6254 Жыл бұрын
The title character of Dr Who is gender fluid, so in a way it’s already normalised it.
@DSS712 Жыл бұрын
Thats precisely why this episode's writing was so cringey and misplaced. It's like Davies somehow forgot what subtext is, even though he used to be good at it.
@electronics-girl Жыл бұрын
Which is why the "male-presenting Time Lord" line was nonsensical and damaged the theme of the episode.
@Lady-Y Жыл бұрын
@@electronics-girl I… actually now find myself agreeing with this criticism, the more I think about it. Yeah, the first couple of reactions I saw to that moment were definitely just the outrage merchants going “wah, they criticized meeeen!!” But on the other half of criticism, it also just gives me similar vibes as… like, TERF feminism? As in that moment feeling less like “girlboss feminism” and more like trans-erasure, literally discounting/invalidating a part of the Doctor’s identity in an exclusionary way. Like, he/she was just a woman not even an entire episode ago, surely he therefore has some valid perspective on womanhood or female identity! But instead his perspective just gets discounted, and a part of his identity invalidated/erased as “male presenting” instead (because obviously we know no masc presenting person could be a woman, smh).
@CitanulsPumpkin Жыл бұрын
Looking at how much knee jerk reactionary shit Jodie Whitaker got from the start, before we all got a full dose of Chibnall's god-awful storytelling that justified some criticism of her seasons, no. It wasn't "normalized." The Doctor was gender fluid as an abstract concept, and then when the show dropped the subtext and made being gender fluid, "the text," everyone lost their shit. Many fans weren't terfs and were able to appreciate the gender fluid aspect of the character. Many other fans did a series of mental gymnastics by saying the Doctor isn't gender fluid because the show treats every regeneration as if the time lord in question died and became an entirely different person. "The Doctor isn't trans. He just died, and now there's a lady doctor." New character means new identity, and never the twain shall meet. Yes, these mental gymnastics sound insane, but they aren't new. Go dig into the Stephen Universe fandom, and you'll find the same attitudes. Garnet can't be a gay couple because they're both alien space rocks, and rocks can't be lesbians, and there's no romantic implication behind any other fusions in the show (except there are too many to count), and they're not gay because the Russian dub put a mustache and a deep voice on Ruby so that means they're straight. The number of hoops heteronormative reactionaries and terfs will jump through to head canon everything that isn't cis het out of the actual canon of a series is infinite. So definitive out and proud LGBTQ characters always need to be added to the story for any normalization to occur. Otherwise you're just following the Rowling method of retconing. No, Joanne. Dumbledore isn't gay just because you said so on Twitter ten years after movie eight. If he was gay he would have mentioned an ex boyfriend or dead husband in the books, and you would have named him Stonewall Firepants, caster of the spell Homogenius Agendo.
@nancyjay790 Жыл бұрын
Could just be me, but... Jessie is delivering this little essay in front of a wall of hexagonal shapes. White hexagons, no less. WHERE'S YOUR TARDIS CONSOLE, JESSIE?!?!
@AdrianColley Жыл бұрын
Ha, I didn't recognise the hexagons until you pointed it out. She has a geeky accessory for every occasion!
@EvilSoupDragon Жыл бұрын
What sometimes get missed is that in the U.K. Doctor who is very much seen as a family programme , and the writing tries to accommodate concepts in a way children will understand. This can make some of the writing sledgehammer blunt, such as the kids on bikes deadnaming Rose, in order to try and normalise LGBTQ+ with children. I am not criticising yourself, and as a cis male in my late fifties, I can’t say I fully understand the nuances of some terms to have an informed view, on whether this could have been done better. That said I do worry that people sometimes forget that the target audience isn’t hardcore sci-fi fans, but ages 8 and up.
@mindy56374 Жыл бұрын
Good point.
@sortascouseace Жыл бұрын
the kids on bikes deadnaming rose may have been blunt, but is absolutely something that trans people face on a regular basis.
@EvilSoupDragon Жыл бұрын
@@sortascouseace True, and important to show children that this is not acceptable.
@SevenJetC Жыл бұрын
@@sortascouseace Yasmin talked about in a behind the scenes video that it definitely brought back some of the things she experienced growing up, and RTD said that his hope with the scene was to have those boys on the bikes see themselves on the screen and realize how wrong it is.
@SodaPopBot Жыл бұрын
@@SevenJetCthat’s a cool tidbit. I’ve always wonderef what bullies think when they see their actions on screen. Hope it causes self reflection rather than self gloating
@Mallory-Malkovich Жыл бұрын
The show wasn’t using trans people as a “story crutch,” they were making a non-binary character important to the story in a way almost no other show has ever done. It made my day to see a trans character not just be ordinary but _special_ because of their differences.
@susanplatt5331 Жыл бұрын
She had to be non binary for the story to work. It's all connected to 15 year's ago. I'm looking forward to the families adventures and the new doctors. Excited.
@DSS712 Жыл бұрын
I think this is where the "old left" and the "new left" fundamentally disagree - with the old left, we don't want to be "more" or "special" because of our inborn differences. We just want to be seen as valid and equal, and absolutely nothing more. I feel like the new left sees this false (ironically) binary where you are either invalidating someone for their identity, or you are lifting them up for their identity, when the truth is that there is actually this healthy middleground where you can just look at them like a person, just as you'd look at them like any person. Are there bigots in the world who are constantly going around invalidating people's identities? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean the solution is to spread the idea that minorities are "more" than the majority. If anything, that just pisses off the bigots and makes them far more likely to feel threatened and dig their heels into their hatred. There's this great episode of Bojack Horseman called "good damage" that explores the toxicity of feeling like you need to create meaning/value out of adverse experiences. In my opinion, the conflation of LGBTQ allyship with "lifting up" LGBTQ people comes down to a conflation LGBTQ with the struggles of living in a bigotted society. The day we have an equal society is the day we start looking at minorities as just people instead of as inherently victimized people. We need to firmly separate the identity of minorities from the bigots who don't accept them. Orange is the new black was MILES better in terms of trans representation. There was a trans character, but her character wasn't all about her transness. After the first episode you kind of just forget that she's trans, and you lump her in with the rest of the cast. That's good representation. That's how you improve societal trans acceptance. Stop othering, start humanizing. Making Rose be trans because of literal alien intervention is like....the opposite of good representation.
@Nova-_- Жыл бұрын
When you are open to accepting different types of people, you can learn new things and new pathways open. The Star Beast showed this through the lens of trans experiences
@DSS712 Жыл бұрын
@@Nova-_- that's what makes it extra dumb that the Meep called Rose "weird" for being trans. The Meep, minutes earlier, gave an explanation about how gender works completely different on his planet and isn't really a thing at all - no he, no she, no they. This could have been an AWESOME narrative jumping off point for Rose to consider leaving earth and joining the Meep or something, but instead they opt for making the Meep suddenly a transphobe to make it clear that he's evil, even though it literally makes no narrative sense for him to be a transphobe. This was such a half baked attempt at representation, Davies could have done a lot better.
@sortascouseace Жыл бұрын
the only problem with it imo was that rose is in no way implied to be non binary before the meta crisis moment, she is explicitly a binary transwoman before that moment and after it she and donna do that whole "you are male presenting and cant let stuff go" thing, despite 14 previously being a woman and a male doctor who lets the doctor go in his last moments.
@hannahbrennan2131 Жыл бұрын
Short answer: Yes Long answer: YYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSS
@Sir_Gerald_Nosehairs. Жыл бұрын
Would it have been difficult to have portrayed Rose as an average, likable young person who just happened to be trans? Instead either RTD wrote her, or Finney portrayed her, almost like the cliched version people believe haunt Twitter, leaping on language mis-steps, delivering smug little speeches, and using buzzwords no-one in real-life uses like "male presenting". I won't claim to have met many trans people, but I was on the local LGBT committee, I met *some*. They were nothing like her. RTD made a big hoo-haa about her, but gave us no reason to want to see her again. People won't warm to a character who isn't likable just because she is representative of a marginalized group.
@lloroshastar6347 Жыл бұрын
The conversation that Donna and her mother had about how to correctly go about addressing someone is a conversation I've heard my family (especially those who are 60+) have many times around the subject of my cousin. They don't do it to my cousins face, but they are constantly wrestling between trying to be understanding of someone they care about and struggling with pronouns and the language they use, even deadnaming my cousin from time to time. It may seem a little 'on the nose' but from my perspective it is quite realistic and commonplace conversations that well meaning cis people have behind the back of a trans person they are referring to.
@CtrlOptDel Жыл бұрын
@12:20 Once the Doctor figured-out how to read the language the ship was using, I presume he had a quick look at the captain’s personnel file while going through the ship’s log & that’s how he knew she was a she…
@djbrouwer7712 Жыл бұрын
That was my assumption as well.
@c.m.8542 Жыл бұрын
About the end part with the doctor knowing the pilot's pronouns, he has read the ship's data, it's not that out there to think that the captain's details were in there, it just wasn't relevant enough to mention it, what was relevant in the moment was the airlock opening and closing Idk maybe I'm misremembering that part
@localhearthian2387 Жыл бұрын
Yes, of course. Gallifreyans are supposed to be billions of years beyond humans obsessions with gender and their associated stereotypes. If the show wants to act like it, that's fine with me
@gamedude412 Жыл бұрын
Also tennant doctor is asexual… he literally states all my loves grow old and die and I can not.
@Kaczyfunny Жыл бұрын
@@gamedude412 This does not means asexual.
@storingjazzinmycheeksforth5319 Жыл бұрын
good representation for trans people includes representing our experiences and not ignoring them. having family members who love you and try their best to do right by you but sometimes slip up and talk as if they're walking on eggshells is something that I, and I imagine many many other trans people have experienced, and an experience that I am overjoyed is being represented on such a mainstream show. My own issue with the episode is with the ending. my own immediate interpretation of it was that it was trying to in some way *justify* Rose being trans by having her transness be part of a larger sci-fi plot. As much as it is trying to say that our perspective is important, and as much as that is a great message, I'm not sure if this was the best way to send it. I know I don't see my transness as anything other than an inherent aspect of myself. I'm literally just a person, you know?
@asliwins337 Жыл бұрын
I was a touch puzzled as I'd thought Rose was a binary trans woman, just an assumption I had that made the end a bit odd. I will say I wish they'd said they were able to let go of the power due to being human rather than being "not male presenting". I think that could have highlighted a strength of humanity, and the equal humanity of trans people.
@SodaPopBot Жыл бұрын
And it might’ve also fit in better with the doctor settling down in a human way. I didn’t really underdstand the snarkines towards males in that specific scene, as all my life women/girls have seemingly been more unable to let go, holding grudges. My gf certainly thinks so too lol. Naturally, this is a matter of circumstance/ a stereotype; anyone can act that way. But yah, just took me out of the moment in a weird way. But maybe someone can help me understand if I’m missing a deeper intention here. Is it about not just brooding, aka, allowing oneself to cry and work through grief properly? He was a woman not long ago, so… weird thing to say, I think he told Donna that already. If it’s about letting go of power, idk if the doctor needed to be called power hungry. Maybe as the Time Lord Victorious, but that was a hot minute ago. Loved the other scenes with Rose tho, such as the dialogue exchange with Meep on feeling different, even if it turned out to be a right ol’ bastard.
@Lizzardgurl Жыл бұрын
Okay, like as a trans person though, I felt needlessly exoticized and like Rose was written with far less interiority than any other character and wasn’t allowed to have a single appearance on screen that didn’t focus on how different she was for her transness. I’ve always appreciated that Rus T Davis writes characters with interiority regardless of gender, but with this trans character, I just kinda wish I got called a slur rather than watch that ending (I know that’s extreme but also my god did that scene make me actually leave my body). The trope of the magical gender person is so old and so worn out. This ending wasn’t revolutionary and is nothing other than beating people over the head
@FunctionallyLiteratePerson Жыл бұрын
I know what you mean, I kinda felt the same. Also the weird comment about male-presenting timelord like... That's not how this shit works.
@Vampyre_Bytes Жыл бұрын
*this* All of this! Wonderful break-down of the episode's "issues"! RTD is trying...but he's not part of the world of it. He's doing better than a lot of folks would, to be certain, but he does still have more research to do if he wants to really "get it right."
@mattmcsherry Жыл бұрын
Everyone is missing the most important question which is how did Rose hear what The Doctor and Donna were talking about inside the spaceship from, like, two floors down on the ground? I can believe a multi-thousand year-old alien travelling trough time and space but I draw the line at supersonic hearing.
@literaltruth Жыл бұрын
I think with the nonbinary thing is just that it's a symptom of the bigger issue with her character - in that she barely had one. Almost every big discussion, revelation or point of development involving Rose happened without her in the room. She was used as plot point and a prop for the development of Sylvia and Donna. Like, when she says "nonbinary" and then says "I'm finally who I was meant to be" it kind of comes out of nowhere - it was like a payoff without a setup. Nothing we saw up until that point suggested she was struggling in any way with her identity, nothing up until that point suggested that she was anything other than a trans woman who was confident in a binary trans identity with a supportive family. Because of that, because we never have ANYTHING on screen that suggests Rose is non binary EXCEPT "Binary Binary Binary, Non-binary" when they say she's "Both and neither" it CAN be interpreted as she's non-binary...but it could ALSO be interpreted as a trans woman character saying that trans women are not really women. Just one line where Rose says something to the Meep or some other character where she says something like "She....or maybe they...I don't know, I'm not sure yet". would have established that this was something she was thinking about and then the resolution of the Metacrises would have felt earned. I would still have gotten rid of the weird gender-essentialst line about "a male presenting Timelord would never understand" which again almost reinforces the idea that she's being presented as a binary trans woman and, even if it wasn't all "men are from mars, women are from venus" also makes NO sense narratively given that the Doctor was literally a woman about 7 hours before it was said.
@saeedrazavi4428 Жыл бұрын
I desperately wish they had made Rose just Trans and not Spacetime-Trans (I'm nb btw). I am pro-celebrating difference, but I don't like that her Transness was somehow bc of space magic. Maybe if it felt less shoehorned into the solution and more built up I would have liked it more. That said, I love that we got a prominent trans character whose transness is important
@KarolKaru Жыл бұрын
(as a transmasc nonbinary person) i absolutely loved the episode, the vocal confirmation of the doctor being nonbinary/genderqueer/genderfluid/etc was wonderful, i dont fully remember the metacrisis plot and i am not super caught up on who lore so i cant say a lot about the logic of the resolution itself, but im so glad to see how many people felt seen and important by the like, solving of the plot by the doctor and/or rose being nonbinary, bc the binary/nonbinary joke is something i make all the fucking time anyways about computers and stuff so i just really enjoyed it! i do agree many things were clunky, and even didnt make sense, like you said probably on account of rtd having the right ideas/vision but not really understanding the intricacies that arent maybe so obvious to someone not trans, who is pretty much constantly in a space of thinking about the differences between body and mind and identity and feeling and thought and etc etc, and could have certainly used some trans and nonbinary sensitivity readers at least for this episode specifically, bc it had transness as a larger plot point and resolution. the only dialogue i have a big problem with was the "male presenting doctor would never understand" both bc yikes gender essentialism with the man/woman thing(what did that even mean????? men cant let things go?? ive never heard that before honestly) and bruh he was a woman like yesterday... and also bc there seems to be like a fundamental misunderstanding of either what gender presentation is or how it works for everyone or... something. i dont even know. but yeah that line was WILD and so out of place. others didnt really stand out to me anywhere near that level(though i should rewatch tbh) and were only ever a bit off if any. i choose to believe that line was meant to be something like "this face aka 10 cant let go" bc Reference tm, or "you just dont understand how the metacrisis works bc you havent experienced it like us/between 2 people" or "you dont understand bc youre not human/have different biology/brain" or smth like that... which def wasnt in the script like that but. i really cant tell wtf it should have been besides incorrect essentialism lmao. and that they could "let go" bc they were sharing the power between 2 minds and 2 hearts and stuff, not just one with donna. so yeah lots to think about, overall i think it was a massively important episode even with its stumbles, and i really fucking hope we get more of rose and gender stuff both with 14 and 15 bc WE DESERVE IT DAMNIT!
@gothicshark Жыл бұрын
The dead alien pronoun thing,was probably because one of the Doctors psionic abilities is Psychometry, not that RTD showed this in the episode, in fact he has referenced several past Doctor abilities in these three episodes without reminding us he can do them, nor has he shown the doctor specifically using these abilities even if they have been established in the past.
@thebitterfig9903 Жыл бұрын
My guess was that the Doctor had read it in the logs. He translated the language, was reading about various things, and something like the Captain’s personnel file was in there. Even though there wasn’t information in the computer about what the Captain was doing, some background about who the captain was might have been.
@MarkMonforti Жыл бұрын
The beauty of it being a trans character for me was the fact that she named herself Rose which was nice plot point as it solidified the argument that she has and donna has these subconscious memories
@andyh7152 Жыл бұрын
I met a trans person at work in the early 90\s, the word was put around the office just to treat them as normal and not react. I didn't see the point it just felt perfectly normal to see them. Others just commented on it. I'm not entirely sure what my point is but it's not the community saying 'look at us we are special' but others trying to gate keep and highlight the special which brings in the the people that want to disrupt and pick on others. The herd mentallity and othering. Normalised representation of everyone. To avoid this being a longer post - Philip Larkin; This be The Verse
@wakewakey Жыл бұрын
It is amazing that one trans character saving the day, after decades of men and women, mostly white being the hero, and everyone loses their minds.
@DSS712 Жыл бұрын
If a man saving the day is explained by his being a man, or if a woman saving the day is explained by her being a woman, or if a white person saving the day is explained by them being white, then that is also shitty writing.
@MammothMorals Жыл бұрын
The issue (atleast for me) wasn't that she saved the day. It's that she was trans because of the doctor and the meta crisis and that they literally spelt out that way on screen. It didn't need to be narrated to us the way it did. You could leave the hints about the meta crisis causing her to be trans and effecting her life without directly telling us. It would have created positive discussion and theorizing amongst fans while not totally dividing them like it did. So yea, my issues more with badly written scenes over politics
@DSS712 Жыл бұрын
@@MammothMorals you hit the nail on the head here. The key to good character writing is subtext, and this episode was an utter failure in utilizing subtext. For another example, take the scene about the Meep's pronouns. Instead of how the scene was actually written, imagine let's say, they were sitting with the Meep and the Doctor looks at everyone and is like "I'm going to get him home." Then maybe grandma says "I thought he was she?" Then they look at Donna and she shrugs, and then the Meep is like "I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are even arguing about right now" and then we see Rose looking brightened and intrigued upon realizing that there are intelligent forms of life out there that don't have the same concept of gender as her society does. That would have been awesome. But instead, we got this after school special cringey eyeroll of a scene that painted Rose more as an activist than as a regular trans person who is just trying to exist in society
@MammothMorals Жыл бұрын
@@DSS712 yes, great example! It annoys me however that no one seems to be able to have a discussion about this topic without accusing you of being transphobic or being extremely transphobic themselves. Same thing thing goes for the state of doctor who in general. People either seem to believe DW can never be bad and excepts all the terrible writing as masterpieces or completely trashes on anything new and claims the show is dead and doomed for failure. So few seems to be able to think clearly.
@DSS712 Жыл бұрын
@@MammothMorals I was annoyed with all the trash virtue signaly dialogue but I'm still gonna keep watching the show because at the end of the day I'm still putting my faith in Davies that he's going to deliver. Unfortunately, Davies alienated a huge chunk of potential viewers by writing the first episode how he did. Like seriously, that male-presenting line was just the most awful thing I've ever seen on television like...ever. I don't blame people - especially male viewers (I'm a female viewer) - who quit the show after that line.
@Kels1701e Жыл бұрын
Transpeople (like myself) have always been here & we always shall be here, I hope more and more are seen on TV in a positive way and not, in a way to dehumanise us.
@DSS712 Жыл бұрын
Feel free not to answer but I'm really curious to hear your opinion on the implication this episode made about Rose's transness ultimately being a result of alien intervention. From my point of view it seems problematic and othering, but then again I'm not trans.
@Kels1701e Жыл бұрын
@DSS712 Whilst I am not happy that Transpeople are somewhat 'Alien', I was delighted to finally have representation in my favourite ever tv show. People choose to forget that LGBTQ people have been around since time began (including transpeople) so we are 'normal' (for want of a better word) and it's time we were more positively represented on tv & movies. We are not Alien in origin or Monsters and I hope this episode does not encourage this feeling as I am sure that was not RTD's intention.
@SevenminutesisallthetimeIhave Жыл бұрын
@@DSS712thank you! It’s so hard to find similar critiques without that person being a right wing dickhead. Rose just felt like a character whose entire purpose is their trans/non binaryness.
@elizawulf8180 Жыл бұрын
The only issue I had wity the ending was the "just give it up" answer to the Meta-crisis. A better solution imo would've been if they used the Meta-crisis energy to repair the damage done to London by the Meep.
@jenbdiamond Жыл бұрын
From a storytelling perspective, one could classify Rose in the same category as the whales in Star Trek IV... a being that "normal" people (ugh, I hated writing that) might have written off as irrelevant and not necessarily worthy of protection, who proved to be vital in ways no one expected. That they have a place in the world that can't be filled by someone else. But yeah, we're probably going to see more instances of Chekhov's Queer for awhile as queer folk continue to be normalized.
@lcflngn Жыл бұрын
I felt this was such a wondrous trans-affirming episode, and our US culture (cultures plural depending where you live) is so generally slow to change, it can take a big yank to move us forward. (When we finally do, it can feel quick). So, well done Davies for making the stretch. Imperfectly done, perhaps, but awesome anyway. Coming out swinging. Otoh, what about the trans actors/characters in Discovery? That was a rather different take perhaps. Much more low key. Or are the times changing so fast, we can barely keep up? Discovery was years ago now 😉 Seems we’re in a transformative time, so clearly there’s way more social change to come, hopefully not too long. At some point soon I hope we’ll be well past this discussion. Enjoyed your vlog Jessie, and also the comments are as usual terrific.
@jamesbrewster4716 Жыл бұрын
Thematically, the episode was about the preconceived ideas regarding appearance. In popular culture there's the assumption that the cute, adoriable Beep is good solely based on appearance; the episode subverts that norm. In the same way there's a subversion of commonly held misconceptions about both transpeople and the disabled. In the character of Shirley, the show contradicts traditional media representations of the disabled and makes the character powerful, matching (and sometimes) bettering the Doctor. Rose, in the episode is given agency as herself. It's through the lens of science fiction, but her power and identity are entwined and central to the resolution of the episode. The trans-character goes from marginalised and unseen to acknowledged and represented, being just as powerful and heroic as the doctor. Rose was somewhat underwritten as a fully rounded character, but that can be seen as a meta-commentary for the visibility of trans-characters in popular culture. In that, the majority of the episode, she's there to deliver exposition rather than be a fully formed character. But there are few, if any mainstream trans-characters on television- especially mainstream uk tv. ultimately, The representation of Rose was well executed for the function the character had in the narrative. She wasn't there to only normalise the presence of transpeople on tv, but to make them visible. Hopefully the opportunity won't be wasted, but now the show has negated some of the negetive stereotypes and shown representation; if Rose returns as recurring character, who will be able to have the opportunity to show more character, then that will normalise and be truly representative of a trans character.
@mabuloo Жыл бұрын
I remember how I detested the first few episodes of Will and Grace, because they talked about being gay constantly. It was so nice to see the characters finally evolve into just being gay, and not having to talk about it so much anymore. It's not so much that we need to see characters of whom we are informed are Trans; but more that we need to see characters who are themselves informed by being Trans.
@Sara_TheFatCultureCritic Жыл бұрын
As my cohost Josh likes to say "some anvils need to be dropped" and honestly what is the use of norms anyway. The Rose thing could so easily have been solved by for example giving her a "she/they" pin like Vera's or some little thing planted to pay off with the climax.
@christianthomas5188 Жыл бұрын
The Doctor was in the captains personal journals. Hes not guessing, he read her notes
@cas4047 Жыл бұрын
As a trans person I agree it depends on the story. I do much prefer stories by trans/non-cis creators that show in a way their own exprience or view of being not cis, especially love short/long comics by non-cis creators. So far it works pretty well for Doctor who but yes pleeease! They should totally get a couple of trans people to fix or check over the scripts. I would also love if their were a few trans puns and Bi puns but written or checked by trans & Bi folks too. I think an easy fix for the dead captain's pronouns would be that the doctor could read a short file before or mention that in a file it said she/her pronouns for the captain (like saying she opened the air lock doors or something), where Donna wouldn't know because she can't read the alien language. A simple added line would help.
@professorakiba434 Жыл бұрын
To answer you're question. Yes. Didn't even need a moment to think about it.
@luizansounds Жыл бұрын
Yep, as trans myself the more characters the better, but ofc needs to be balanced BCS other ppl need representation Over representation can be problematic BCS other minorities can feel offended and etc
@timothyhanson731 Жыл бұрын
My issue with the Star Beast is that it felt preachy and unnatural. The dialog and the story beats seemed to be muddled by an agenda, and I think even at the detriment of Rose being Trans. I thought there was a lot of space to really highlight that explore that, and to me it sort of came off as more virtue signaling than genuine.
@mikaylaeager7942 Жыл бұрын
The Doctor went through the ships records earlier in the episode. He would have seen the captain’s profile and pronouns there. I agree that the non-binary thing did feel clumsy though. Wish it had been more clear, because it does make it seem like RTD doesn’t really know what nonbinary is.
@alanaspurling6469 Жыл бұрын
I was inspired by your comment during the Friday Transgender group. At the time I saw you as a binary transgender woman. Your admission of being nonbinary really impressed me. Thank you Jessie for just being honest and being yourself.
@foregroundeclipse8725 Жыл бұрын
@JessieGender Even though the Anime Pluto isn't about trans people, it dose commenate on discrimination & bigotory. As a trans man I related and connected to the A.I. in the series. Seeing how they have humanity and emotions but are ultimately dehumanized by society and by those around them it hit me very deeply on an emotional level. They show how said advanced A.I. are also so close to human that they are a another kind of human . They are human. Bit of a tagent. I just appreciated the apporach of this series. Instead of focusing on our differences, it dose the opposite. Making the audience question their own humanity and morality . It definitely inspired me to take this approach in my own story in some way.
@bjam89 Жыл бұрын
the captain thing could so easily have been solved by him being like "oh i learned it from the computer"
@randomhydrocarbons2322 Жыл бұрын
For me, that part of Star Beast came a touch too close to trans equivalent of the Magical Negro trope. It would take more than a handful of times before I would call it out though.
@Starbush69 Жыл бұрын
The way I read that comment felt like they were saying “I’m fine with Doctor Who being woke, but not too woke!” Yeah, cause it’s not like Doctor Who sometimes explicitly stated what it was trying to say up until now. The very first revival episode with the 9th Doctor briefly mentioned some things made of plastic to Rose Tyler in a way that stated “Plastic is evil!”
@valolafson6035 Жыл бұрын
It makes me wonder what the ''Doctor Who is too woke now'' have been watching.
@skylerover8643 Жыл бұрын
One thing that still makes me smile is RTD made an obviously transphobic network(BBC) air a pro-trans story. And I feel that might help in understanding the whole beating over the head thing
@bekkers29 Жыл бұрын
Yeah, the only issue I had with the ending of the first special was that Rose hadn't been established as non-binary, so it felt awkward. I do think it was well-meaning, but was so clumsy.
@lolitaguevara86 Жыл бұрын
I’m not saying it was well written but I always assumed that they revealed Rose to be nonbinary as a twist right at the end to bring the big conclusion of the episode together? Like we all assumed she was a binary trans woman but she wasn’t, you know? I don’t know I’m just not 100% sure if that came from RTD misunderstanding the differences between binary trans and nonbinary trans people or whether he was actually being smart in showing that nonbinary is an umbrella term that even someone who presents in a very feminine way and uses she/her pronouns can identify as
@JennFaeAge Жыл бұрын
I'd love to be normalized in the UK, cos then the government wouldn't be able to get away with the anti-trans shit they seem to be able to otherwise
@DavidBeddard Жыл бұрын
If you listen to the episode of The Official Doctor Who Podcast that follows the broadcast of "The Star Beast", you'll hear RTD seek validation from the trans presenter, Juno Dawson, on his approach. He is essentially her superior in an employment situation, publicly asking his trans subordinate to validate his take on trans issues on air while she is employed to promote his show. A) Why didn't he ask that question while he was writing it? B) Abuse of power much?!
@Hinoema01 Жыл бұрын
Agreed. Normalize doesn't necessarily mean 'act normal'.
@erics3367 Жыл бұрын
I still remember Veras Video about the Gay agenda where she said something along the line of that the ultimate goal of the movement would be to make itself obsolete. To live in a world where it is completely normal to be trans/gay/queer and completely normal to have the rep in media. To normalize. But we are not there so we need to talk about it because it is still way too little
@Stephen-Fox Жыл бұрын
Subtle inclusion is good. Being slapped in the face by inclusion is also good. It all depends on the nature of the story and what it's trying to do. (Although, I'd note that my reading on the ending was that the reason Rose took on part of the metacrises allowing Donna to survive was that she's her child, rather than that she's trans. Then it gets muddled with the binary/nonbinary stuff, which doesn't bug me (as a masc presenting non-binary person) and then comes the 'no male presenting time lord' stuff which... I'm not keen on for two reasons, one is that it raises the question of why Donna didn't think to 'let it go' the first time around. And two is that it's dipping it's toe into the same sort of gender essentialist claptrap that gave us "women are special because they can give birth" of The Doctor, The Widow, and the Wardrobe. And it's a long, long way off that nonsense, but that style of stuff _bugs_ me.)
@FunctionallyLiteratePerson Жыл бұрын
I have the same feelings about that comment, it really made me dislike the episode. I was a bit more indifferent about it until then, even if it was at the end
@Tamsin_W Жыл бұрын
Same on reading it as her being part of the metacrises because she's Donna's child and not because she's trans. The non-binary bit felt a bit muddled but 🤷🏻♀️ could be editing, missing info, whatever. Maybe she's non-binary trans fem and it just never came up. The explanation bit bugged me though cus it felt like they were saying shes trans because of the metacrises, like instead of saying she's trans becouse she's trans and that's something ppl can be. It felt like they were saying she's only trans because space magic made her trans and that kinda felt off. Also hard agree on the "male presenting timelord" bit the doctor is an alien so conforming to earth gender norms (and even then, that's not consistent across earth or our history) feels unnecessarily like trying to make gender stereotypes some sort of universal default/ baseline with all the weight / essentialism that carries. It could have been far more fun to have some sort of chat between Rose and the doctor about gender and how timelords experience that and end up with the doctor having something more approaching a non-binary experience and kinda going any/all on pronouns but defaulting to however they were presenting within the culture they were currently visiting or something. If that was the case could even talk about how they shouldn't have to just to belend in and be accepted etc. Also sorry for the wall of text 😅
@gota7738 Жыл бұрын
12:18 This is super speculative but since the next special doubled down on the 'vale between worlds/scifi folklore' concept, I think there's a non 0% chance that the she/her pronouns for the skeleton horse knocking on the house might be set up for the introduction of the Mari Lwyd as a scifi alien? Like every welsh person I know saw that half covered horse skull and said "oh it's Mari", and Doctor Who is now in the production hands of Bad Wolf Studios, a welsh studio. The christmas special seems to have straight up Goblins as antagonists, so I think the folkstory thing is going to be an ongoing theme for the next season. If you don't know who the Mari Lwyd is; she's the village's favourite dead horse, whose skull is dug up, put on a pole (with a mechanism to move her jaw), and dressed up with a sheet, ribbons, and bells. She then goes out partying with the crew, knocking on doors and challenging the owners to singing competitions untill she wins, and gets to come inside and drink alcohol and eat cheese. And she uses she/her pronouns. She's sort of had a boom of awareness as of late and has become pretty popular in iconography. I 100% wouldn't be suprised if she turned up in 2024's christmas special.
@Kyronea Жыл бұрын
As a trans woman I cried when I saw how important being trans was to the story, because it wasn't being used as a crutch at all. It was an inclusion in a way that was positive, an inclusion that not only celebrated who Rose was, but her life being meaningful and wonderful, and being trans as part of the story in a way that wasn't about it being rough to be trans, or another coming out story, or anything like that. It was in a way that helped her bond with her mother and save her mother's life because her mother is awesome and the two have a brilliant relationship. So I saw it as normalizing, not as a story crutch thing. I get how it can feel like a crutch to someone who isn't trans, but for me, it was something to celebrate.
@Wolf-ln1ml Жыл бұрын
My suggestion with situations like this is always: Imagine if this happened with one of the "normal" persons acting the same way. Would you be fine with that as well, or would it appear weird/selfish/arrogant/...? In this case, just imagine the Doctor saying that "he's more than, he can do xyz _because_ he's (currently) a man". Sounds... problematic, doesn't it?
@travishiltz4750 Жыл бұрын
Like the background. Are you filming from your Tardis? I like Rose. Would have loved for her to become a companion, but why I loved most how she was portrayed, the ending felt very cynical and calculated. RTD was fixing a plot point that had been getting grief for 15 years, and it felt like he was using Rose as a shield or extra bit of insurance. She went from character to plot devoice... And I guess that means we've normalized Rose, because this show loves to treat women as magic plot points.
@nancyjay790 Жыл бұрын
I apologize. I didn't see your comment before including mine.
@travishiltz4750 Жыл бұрын
@@nancyjay790 it's obviously a 'great minds think alike' moment. They happen.
@thebeshortedcellist8182 Жыл бұрын
I personally feel with stage we are at with trans and non-binary representation in media, being blaringly obvious is needed. The problem with subtlety is that trolls and devil's advocates start claiming a character is not queer; and then they divert the discussion to being how the woke mob don't want a character to be "normal" (as they would say, because they like to claim cis is a slur). While the writing might be clunky, ultimately having explicitly queer characters is important to make sure people cannot misinterpret it. Back when I was a teen (and wasn't even aware of the closet I'd made my bed) I didn't realise that Yuri on Ice was a gay romance because the translation referred to friendship repeatedly and I was too naive to realise it was being censored. There is a wider debate to be had about plot lines or writing making odd implications (especially when it comes to sci-fi which often had to use aliens for examples of queerness to avoid censorship, but thus encouraged stereotypes like the asexuals being emotionless and inhuman). However, we first need enough examples in popular media to be able compare and improve upon.
@Critic115 Жыл бұрын
I mostly liked the trans rep, the subtle bullying, Sylvia getting confused, Donna reacting by getting super protective... those are all real things. I do have issues though; as you said the trans people arent always non binary thing. But my biggest problem was the ending. Both me and my trans SOs felt like it was implying that trans = alien brain. Like she's trans BECAUSE of the Dr Donna. Idm her having the energy inside her, I do mind linking the outside alien force with her gender. I just think it's a clumsy and slightly counterproductive use of her gender identity. I would have preffered the same events happened but pulling the lines about binary/nonbinary. It felt very much like someone writing trying really hard to be a good ally, but didn't think to get a trans person to help write/edit it. Whilst talking about representation; the wheelchair thing was mixed, in the first instance I thought it was good, and also gave a reason for her to escape, but that was undermined when she then got around more easily later to the same level. I did enjoy the third episode wheelchair accessible TARDIS gag, that they're finally catching up to the 21st century. Something I disliked about both, especially with the accesible tardis being made a thing out of; is that neither of them went off with the Dr, sure Rose goes places with Donna's Doctor, but that's only referenced. I felt like we were led on the route of one or both of them becoming the next companion(s) and whilst it's still possible, I found it disappointing. As now even if Rose does join the new Dr it will feel weird that she's already gone with Donna's Doctor to random things. (For context, I'm trans and cant walk without aids)
@zemoxian Жыл бұрын
That last bit was a little weird. But it’s been bugging me for decades. Why would aliens have the same sexes and genders humans do at all? They aren’t (usually) part of our evolutionary history so their biological, psychological, and sociological development should be wildly different. I recognize to limitations of the medium that the characters are usually played by humans and it’s cheaper to have the aliens have humanoid bodies the same size and shape as humans. But it’s rare that they vary the social relationship outside of the human context. It’s like how Morty described Worf as a man with a bunch of crap on his face. But the aliens he gets to in an animated show are quite a bit more varied. (The gender thing still applies quite often however.) So yeah a corpse in a suit not even being seen being identified as female is a bit odd for lots of reasons. It reminds me of a practice, particularly in nonfiction writing I recall seeing a few decades ago. There was occasionally a paragraph explaining that male was often considered the default so they were defaulting to female. It was done to avoid saying either “he” all the time or something clunky like “he/she” hundreds of times. I’m not sure if that was the attempt here. It’s been a while since college so I don’t know what the current practice is in scholarly writing on that front. I think I’d probably lean towards “they” as the default if that isn’t considered problematic for non-binary people. Though that may have been too controversial for Doctor Who of it looked like he was assuming they were nonbinary and not that he just didn’t want to assume genders.
@Cereja-Lua Жыл бұрын
It's like when people complain about queer/nuerodivergent characters in fiction and say that they're "shoving it in their faces". As a queer nuerodivergent person, I'd rather have a character that was openly both because I'd feel seen.
@CitanulsPumpkin Жыл бұрын
It's clumsy, but up until this point the LGBTQ representation in Doctor Who was the handful of times Jack Harkness flirted with men, and Bill and Yaz. A bi guy people overlooked because bi erasure and "Look! He's flirting with a woman!", a lesbian not interested in a male Doctor, and a lesbian interested in a female Doctor but the show never really paid off the relationship. Claiming there was trans representation because all timelords are gender fluid suffers the same problems that Stephen Universe suffered with its lesbian representation. They can't be gay because they're rocks. They can't be gay because they're aliens from a mono gendred species. They can't be gay because they're aliens from a gendeless species. They can't be gay because the Russian dub gave Ruby a mustache and a deep voice. They can't be gay because no other fusions are portrayed in a romantic context. (Even though every other fusion has that context.) They can't be gay because the show runner couldn't get literally every Cartoon Network employee to sign a petition. It's insane, but the number of hoops terfs and heteronormatives will jump through while doing their, "everything is cis het," mental gymnastics is infinite. Timelords can't be trans because each regeneration is the death of one character and the birth of a new character. Doesn't matter is the show clearly says otherwise. The terfs will headcanon it out of existence and go on claiming the show is on their side. For full normalization to occur there needs to be very obvious human LGBTQ characters on screen. Not aliens, or wizards, or rock people who may or may not only by default claim a label that only applies to humans. Without that blunt unambiguous representation you're left with the kind of representation terfs like Rowling will tolerate. No, Joanne. Dumbledore isn't gay just because you said he was on twitter ten years after movie 8 came out. If he was gay then he would have mentioned an ex boyfriend or dead husband in the books, and you would have named him Stonewall "Firepants" Rainbowbeard, caster of the spell Homogenius Agendo!
@katheryne-bois Жыл бұрын
Rose might as well be Nonbinary too! It’s not because she identifies as a Trans Woman that it means she’s not nonbinary! Gender Identity is fluid, and some peoples can experience gender differently depending of the time or being both and/or in between! Everything is possible! So Tennant saying about Rose being Nonbinary is not wrong! Just an example, I’m myself a Nonbinary Trans Woman, mostly the term Genderfae, it defines someone that express Gender Fluidity between being a Woman and the Nonbinary Umbrella! For me, it’s between being a Woman and Voidgender! Sometimes I feel just a Woman, sometimes a mix of Woman and Voidgender and other times just simply Voidgender! I’m still a Trans Woman and I’m still Nonbinary!
@dustinakadustin Жыл бұрын
I was talking about this episode on my show and felt bad cause I was struggling to vocalise my thoughts without coming off as ignorant or unaccepting of it cause I did like it. I really liked it but thought the dialogue was kinda clunky, but it was a great moment! It's also not like it's the first time doctor who has super clunky dialogue. I think it's awesome that doctor who is doing stuff like this.
@davewaring73 Жыл бұрын
In the UK I've often heard the term 'usualise' over 'normalize' which maybe doesn't carry the same baggage of conforming or assimilating.
@thatotherted3555 Жыл бұрын
That doesn't sound right to me, because in my understanding of these words, something can be unusual and still be within the range of what's "normal." But maybe I'm conflating "normal" with "natural," or maybe there's a difference between UK and US usage.
@CassidyShadewing Жыл бұрын
So as someone that is both autisitc and genderqueer; I'm not sure the ending counts as "normalizing" Rose. Maybe I have a different concept of normalize then the standard definition; being autistic it happens; but my issue... solely with the ending and not Rose, or any other element around her in this episode... is that they make her special. They make her special /because/ she is trans. It feels like they are hitting the viewers over the head that her being trans/non-binary is the answer/solution and wouldn't have happened otherwise. To me, that feels the opposite of normalizing; which I read as making trans character be normal people; not comedy relief, not villians, not victims, just the same as any other regular character, except they happen to be trans. It couldn't just be that Donna had a child, they make it sound like if Rose was cismale, it wouldn't have worked. She's not just a trans character that happens to help save the day, she's a trans character that saves the day by being trans. The whole thing feels very anvilicous and kinda cringe by how heavily they emphasize it. Espically the whole "male persenting time lord could never get it." becuase that feels insulting not just to cismales but trans males as well. The rest of the episode, as is; is wonderful and really good at helping with the normalization part. It helps show some of the issues faced, and how even well meaning family kinda have some trouble adjusting; which is okay and understandable. Its just the ending that makes me question if things could have been handled just a little better.
@williamgeorge2580 Жыл бұрын
I think commentator is confusing the fact that RTD has all of the subtlety of a runaway train going through a china shop more than him relying on a "crutch". Then again, he is doing this in defiance of TERF Island so I don't think it's the time for a Dax-style "If you know, you know" characterization.
@omf4ever Жыл бұрын
Jessie, love you but this has to be the longest job application I have ever seen, we all want to you to be a story editor on Doctor Who, you can just say it ❤
@NikolaHoward Жыл бұрын
Bone structure of the skull. Subtle differences in bone shape of the face (yes, pelvis is your sure bet) would have told The Doctor the Skelton was a she. Possibly also the cut of the space suit... Again, subtle. That's what The Doctor does though. Subtle.
@izzafizza339 Жыл бұрын
Not dr who but my fav trans scifi episode is star trek tng s5 episode the outcast. I agree with rikers take on soren
@aarondubourg3706 Жыл бұрын
To me, there's a difference between othering and acknowledging the differences. And in SciFi and Fantasy, th "order" or implication is important. Like "I'm trans/NB and I have magical space powers" vs "I have magical Space powers and became trans/NB." I don't mind the narrative being very overt when it comes to representation or our perspectives, heck we've been doing overt representation since ancient civilization (Ishtar gave Trans/NB/Intersex folks magical powers). I just don't want to message to be lost along the way, which I feel happened with Rose's character
@YoungMovieReviews Жыл бұрын
I don't know how you tell the audience that x character is trans without mentioning their past identity or them mentioning their trans. If you have a gay character all you need to do is see that character in a same-sex relationship to tell the audience that X character is gay. You have trans men and women who look like cis men and women. That the audience would just think that the character is cis.
@Cdr2002 Жыл бұрын
Agreed
@foregroundeclipse8725 Жыл бұрын
That's a good point. And it is rather difficult to explore said topic without coming off as to obvious or too on the nose. You know?
@Cdr2002 Жыл бұрын
@@foregroundeclipse8725 then just accept being on the nose
@dandelion_16 Жыл бұрын
Maybe there is a point to be made for taking care centering/cheering on marginalized identities doesn't become othering in the other direction. For example the narrative around neurodivergent people becoming how we are "gifted" or have "superpowers" combined with many genius characters, who despite being smart and heroes, were still dehumanizing because they were more so a staple character to make the plot work (cause you need a smart guy to solve things). Maybe it started out as well-intended, but being told you're "special" and can still make you feel terrible even though it's positive. Maybe that's what the commenter tried to touch upon too (not that I know ofc, but it's what came to my mind)
@phyphor Жыл бұрын
As a nonbinary person I felt *seen* and it was fucking amazing
@christianschmid1440 Жыл бұрын
If you are up to it, I'd love to ask you: Did you read Rose as nb throughout the episode? For me it felt out of nowhere. I wouldn't have minded Rose being nb at all, it was more a scriptwriting issue to me. It felt like the whole episode was eager to tell me that Rose is binary female. I know you can be non-binary and still prefer female pronouns, but if the solution to the problem is nonbinaryness then the 'you are supposed to retroactivly imply that Rose is nonbinary but prefers female pronouns' is a big leap for an episode to make. You get my point? I am interested to hear your thoughts on this.
@proserpina44483 ай бұрын
Hi @@christianschmid1440, different person but also enby. The thing is you can't always tell wether a person is nonbinary by their closing-style, their pronouns and their reaction to forms of address like sir or madam. Many do present quite androgynous while others lean more on the maskuline or feminine side. Gender presentation does not equal gender. For Rose as she presents feminine I rely on her word. If she calls herself nonbinary she is. In terms of representation I think Rose is quite good because it shows that being nonbinary does not have to mean this stereotypical nonbinary person who dresses androgynous, uses the pronouns they/ them and rejects all binary forms of address.
@AspelShuyin Жыл бұрын
I liked the message about things not being binary was great. I think the "a male identifying Doctor would never give up power" was extremely cringe, but also this is Doctor Who and I expect it to be cringe. I also wish that Rose was bigger in the story, if anything. I was disappointed she wasn't in Wild Blue Yonder or anything except the end of The Giggle. I was hoping she'd be Ncuti's first Companion. But I super liked the metaphors about how things aren't binary. I absolutely loved it. So much. If anything I think the show was too vague and they never actually say Rose was trans. People are stupid and I can imagine some people not realizing it.
@seldinjoy Жыл бұрын
This is a very interesting conversation topic. I really enjoyed the DW episode myself, and my thought takeaway very much align with yours. The talking points remind me of a conversation I used to have with my mom when I was younger (too young to really live in the truth of my bi-sexual-ness). I would ask "Why do they have to point out the gay characters, why can't they just be friends, etc" and my mom, very calmly, would respond "Well... Why not? Why can't they be gay? Does that take away any part of the thing you're watching? If it doesn't, then they should say it." Because, as the conversation progressed, pointing it out, making it a talking point, referencing it, even making it the subject of the plot, or the entire show / movie / play, whatever I was watching, usually was enriched by it... When done genuinely, in any event... Sidenote, as my wife points out, it's very telling that "80s music" means X in Last of Us, because a gay man, defining this code, would definitely think of the 80s and alarm bells. I think this is very telling to your point of the "yes, they're together, during the apocalypse." We get a very different ending for these two in the game, and I think about the 80s music a lot for that ending as well...
@TheSheebeen Жыл бұрын
As a nonbinary asexual I have never seen myself represented on screen... Until the Doctor Who 60th specials. I'm AFAB and I use neopronouns and she/her. You can be nonbinary and trans and use she/her pronouns. These are all things that are true. You don't have to be they to be enby. I wept when Rose said the word nonbinary out loud, and smiled. That was how I felt when I was able to figure out the language to identify myself. And to have her fix the binary metacrisis just by existing? That was the biggest F you to TERF Island and the fearmongering Tories imaginable. And I say this as an Irish person who has grown up with British cultural influences everywhere in Ireland, and I can see that while the country is rejecting transphobia there's hate seeping in and even being imported, and to have Doctor Who, a 60 year old British Institution, and in particular David Tennant and Catherine Tate who are both British National Treasures be the faces of it made me so damned happy. We can have trans people as set dressing later, right now we need to see trans and nonbinary people as central to the stories. Also RTD probably does need a few enby and trans sensitivity readers, but that's more about the language not the overall message. imo obviously, ymmv.
@ogpandamonium Жыл бұрын
I mostly just didn't like that "because the doctor and donna is male and female" thing. It's wierd that magic space power is dependent on someone's gender, and even wierder considering the doctor was a woman less than an hour ago.
@Zuxtron Жыл бұрын
I totally agree with everything said here. There's no way to perfectly represent a minority with a single episode; the ideal way to do representation is by having a mix of stories, some of which have minority characters just being normal people and some that do deal with the ways in which they are different. Being white, black, Asian, gay, straight, cis, trans, does affect some parts of your life and it's important for stories to acknowledge that sometimes.
@YoungMovieReviews Жыл бұрын
Ever since The 13th Doctor, I have always wondered. With the idea of regeneration, should The Doctor and the expanded The Master be counted as Trans Characters.
@CortexNewsService Жыл бұрын
headcanon accepted.
@AdrianColley Жыл бұрын
By definition!
@whitleybayman123 Жыл бұрын
So, a Dalek and Cyberman as well as a Time Traveling Alien is normal, but people get triggered by a young black trans girl....? DR Who is all about change and diversity. Well I think it is and I have watched it since 1975 Maybe I got it wrong lol
@JayJ1095 Жыл бұрын
11:21 My guess is that in each case there were bits cut from the rest of the episode that would have made those lines make more sense. For instance, maybe in the original script for the first episode, Rose mentions being non-binary earlier on in the episode. And for the second, maybe the Doctor saw information about the captain when he was looking at the computer terminal earlier in the episode.
@BostonChattanooga Жыл бұрын
I’m a gay male so I’m just hear to listen and absorb. The Star Beast episode didn’t bother me at all. I honestly didn’t even realize the young actress was even trans until the Meep started asking questions 😂😂.
@FriendlyGhost02 Жыл бұрын
In this particular case, I can't help but say it, we need more Rose Noble!
@shachna Жыл бұрын
I assumed that he learned the captain's pronouns from the computers. Same way he got other information.
@XXamphivena Жыл бұрын
Idk we save the world with the power of love or the power of friendship all the time, i dont see a reason we can’t save the world with the power of transgenderism
@meander112 Жыл бұрын
Yes, yes, a thousand times, "Yes!"
@SyntheticSilverGem Жыл бұрын
You perfectly described my issue with how a lot of trans or generally queer characters are represented in media.
@Ian_Jules Жыл бұрын
There’s a longstanding discourse in lgbtq+ spaces about assimilation vs. subversion, folks wanting to simply “fit in” vs. queerness as visible non-conformity. I think those old tensions are in play here. There’s no one size fits all solution, but my dream is to live in a world where people can safely live as who they are, share their truth, and celebrate their uniqueness. It’s a bit of a paradox, but our similarities are more meaningful if we first acknowledge and love our differences; the universal and the diverse are two sides of one coin.
@jacksonvoet8312 Жыл бұрын
If we normalize it, just make it a thing that happens instead of a box checker thing, then that’s good! It means that if it’s normal, no one will fuss about it. Still hope they make those characters good though.
@dravendarkmatter Жыл бұрын
the real normalization the episode is doing is normalizing an accepting family who sees their kid is having trouble and supports her, adapts to her, tries for her and celebrates her differences. the story takes place in 2023 with all the 2023 pains a teen trans girl would go through in the UK. i think the episode normalizes differences---which is a really cool thing. I think when we talk about normalization we come dangerously close to a very boring status quo middle ground and yeah---what you said about people feeling like trans people in stories is like "yeah you can be here but dont be WEIRD"---I feel that so much in some of the things I watch. I think if we want a "normal", the normal that Doctor Who has always had at its core is: be kind, be open, everyone's different and everyone's special in their own way and has something to offer. Rose being trans and the show's interaction with it feels so *naturally* Doctor Who to me.
@dravendarkmatter Жыл бұрын
the only standard for normal should be kindness. I FEEL FULL OF LOVE!
@Brunoxsa Жыл бұрын
Thank you for the video, Jessie! Media in general must include transgender characters both in the casual sense as they being integral to the plot. With the current anti-trans discourse, trans people need to be seen and heard more than never. And considering the right wing's ability to pretend misunderstanding and/or denying inclusivity, that kind of message must be very explicit. Despite I agreeing that people from marginalized groups must prioritize their safety, they feeling shame of themselves and hiding in fear is exactly what bigots want. And either way, they will still be target of persecution by bigots, so what is the point in comply to their demands? Other problematic aspect of normalization is assimilation: "some cis straight people will only accept queer people if they behave and pretend to be like the former." That excludes gender non-conforming people, even the ones who are not necessarily queer and/or trans.
@demonlurking Жыл бұрын
I recently discovered the 2020 movie “Bit”. It’s kind of a sleeper film (it wasn’t a big budget hit, it wasn’t a critical darling (honestly it’s kind of a B movie)). In it Nicole Maines plays Laurel, a trans girl who winds up bitten by an all girl, misandrist, circle of vampires. Laurel’s transness is never explicitly stated, and isn’t a plot point. It just IS. And this is one of the things I actually enjoy about it.
@MatthewNelsonCook Жыл бұрын
I thought they did a pretty good job with the character. It was normal for them (the whole family), so she was treated as normal, which was... Normal. I actually thought the portrayal was pretty spot on. I also absolutely loveed the conversation between Donna and her mother in the kitchen. When she said that she was talking about herself not her daughter she once again pointed out that this was just normal teenage stuff, that all teenagers are the same no matter what their pronouns. It was a pretty good representation from my vantage anyway. My only issue with it was that they made The fact that she was trans a large part of the story, without fully explaining it to the audience. I understood that because again it was normal so they didn't need to explain it to the family members or the other characters, but I was a little confused as an outsider to the situation. It's Doctor who after all, she could have been a timelord for all I knew. Lol. I would have enjoyed a little more exposition but other than that I thought they handled it very well.
@joju997 Жыл бұрын
As a Jew right now seeing people renormalize antisemitism, I don’t have a lot of respect for subtlety remaining. It saves everyone time if they just know what they’re getting upfront.
@oolong2 Жыл бұрын
I tend to agree with the commenter... Specifically on the non-binary scene which made absolutely no sense to me. At the time I was thinking "wait, she's trans, not non-binary, what's going on?" I STILL don't understand it today and I don't think it helps to have stories about a marginalized group that doesn't make sense to your audience. It reminds me of the "magical negro" trope that was in movies and television for a long time. Where black people were depicted as unknown magical creatures that can conveniently help out the white protagonist. It was not meant to harm black people, but at the same time it was otherizing. This is very different than depicting black culture or dealing with racism (like in DS9) or discrimination issues, you can also find those elements in this Dr Who episode. However the non-binary scene was just taking something that people find strange and turning it into a magic power... I can see someone being impowered by that, but I can also see someone finding it cringe. Similar to how a "girl power" theme becomes divisive for the same reasons.
@Scarygothgirl Жыл бұрын
I'm a little confused, was the original question whether queer people should be portrayed like normal people who actually exist?
@beatafulop7213 Жыл бұрын
Where RTD first lost me was the regeneration at the end of Power of the Doctor, where he explicitly said that he didn't want Tenant in Whittaker's clothes because that would be drag, and like, it's not?? It's a shapeshifter shapeshifting following previously established rules of the canon??? Anyway. I completely agree with what you said about acknowledging these differences (be it race, gender, sexuality, ability, whatever) gives the story you're writing so much more cool stuff to work with. What comes to my mind is Ana Mardoll's short story collection No Man of Woman Born, focussing on trans and nonbinary people getting around prophecies by virtue of being trans and nonbinary. It has this one story, a Sleeping Beauty retelling, where the main character is cursed to sleep for a hundred years with the kingdom also sleeping, only that the curse unfortunately uses gendered pronouns, and the main character is genderfluid, so it only applies at random depending what they are on any given day. The other days, they are the only person awake in the kingdom. And it was a short story, so unfortunately it couldn't explore this idea as in depth as it would have deserved, but, like, what an amazing concept! What an untapped potential there! And, like. This is just ONE example. I have encountered other so cool and original ideas playing with the gender of trans and especially nonbinary characters in various books. Usually indie and self-published. I'm looking forward to more of these ideas making it to mainstream entertainment. It will really enrich our wealth of stories.
@19youtubian72 Жыл бұрын
Without having to watch the video I have to say yes. They are a part of any society and human just like anyone else so not acknowledging them is disrespectful and negligent. The trans community is no different than any other community (disabled, black, hispanic, etc.). We are all human and should be treated as such.