Jesus Was A Lunatic (Lewis's Trilemma)

A video examining C.S. Lewis's trilemma arguing that Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic, or lord. This video examines the possibility that Jesus was a lunatic, but still a good moral teacher.
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Information for this video gathered from The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy, The Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy, The Oxford Companion to Philosophy, The Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, The Collier-MacMillan Encyclopedia of Philosophy, the Dictionary of Continental Philosophy, and more! (#MereChristianity #philosophy_of_religion)

[@JackofWhitechapel]

This channel is criminally underrated

[@Cowboy45-70]

In this comment section: people who understood this was a look at C. S. Lewis's Trilemma, atheists/agnostics, and religious zealots that missed the entire point... wow another trilemma

[@liamwilson12345]

His dad was a lunatic not jesus

[@khosta6690]

I agree he probably was crazy because all his followers are

[@WorthlessWinner]

I have no clue where people get the "he was a great moral teacher" thing from. His rules weren't that original and his justifications for them even less so.

[@ferdia748]

originality and greatness are not mutually exclusive though

[@CarneadesOfCyrene]

True. Lewis's original argument is targeted at people who thought he was a great moral teacher, but not God. There is a case that his ethics was strongly influenced by Greek Cynicism (kzbin.info/www/bejne/iGGUhWV7pbOknpo) and Stoicism. The idea that all you need for eudaimonia is virtue is a clear precursor to early Christian thought around ethics.

[@lgroschiensalle]

@@CarneadesOfCyrene Jesus taught straight from the Scriptures, the Old Testament. To claim that what Jesus taught was in any way "influenced by Greek Cynicism" is strong evidence of someone not having studied the Scriptures in any depth. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that someone making such a ridiculous claim hadn't even read past the book of Genesis... Jesus came to call sinners to repentance, and to announce the good news that the Kingdom of God was at hand. Also, he came to gather the lost sheep of the house of Israel, not to teach "ethics". In fact, the very concept of "ethics" is completely foreign to the entirety of God's Holy Writ. To God, what matters is his Law (Torah) and the instructions he gave to his children concerning their salvation, not to assure that the people of this world receive a crash course on "ethics".

[@88marome]

The Bible is mishmash pf several different mythologies and philosophies. There's the Zoroastrian "golden rule" and the Roman story of the prostitute and "throwing the first stone".

[@user-zk4ui8qx5v]

He wasn't a lunatic. If you read the old testament prophecies you can see Jesus fulfilled them and is the messiah. There are also many mircales done in the church.

[@iAtheist4Life]

Where's your evidence?

[@acephalica]

Another issue is: if most of the people is lunatic, is Jesus still rightly considered a lunatic?

[@CarneadesOfCyrene]

Several issues: First, if you don't think Jesus is the Messiah, there is no reason to believe the Bible's claim that he is (circular logic at its finest). When your only evidence for your claim is the book you are trying to justify the accuracy of, you won't convince anyone that does not already believe. Second, for Lewis's argument to fail, you just have to think that it is logically possible for someone to be both a lunatic and a good moral teacher. We don't need to prove that Jesus was that, just that it is logically possible that he was. Third, even if Jesus fulfilled prophecies, it does not follow that he was not insane or hallucinating. If someone prophesies that a person will fall into the Grand Canyon tomorrow, and tomorrow someone that is high and hallucinating a vision of Zeus telling him he is the prophet walks into the Grand Canyon thinking he can fly, it does not follow that his delusion is correct, or that he is not insane.

[@jonathan4385]

These are dated arguments on both sides, including the original comment. Also, "where's your evidence" is hardly appropriate for a KZbin comment. Despite popular belief, the bible contains, and in itself is, much more credible evidence than many would like you to believe. Context is extremely important.

[@Uryvichk]

@@jonathan4385 But it isn't credible evidence for the things the Bible itself claims. It can't be, because that's circular reasoning. It's possible that some, most, or all of the claims in the Bible in fact ARE true, but independent confirmation would be necessary to establish what parts of it are. For example, if God were to appear before me right now and prove to my satisfaction that he really is God, I could then ask him "Hey, is all the stuff the Bible says about you true?" And he could tell me whether what I've interpreted the Bible to mean is what he intended, or an accurate description of himself. If his answer were instead to just read the Bible, that wouldn't -- and couldn't -- be an actual answer to my question, because when I'm asking God whether the Bible is accurate, I'm looking for the guy who wrote/inspired it to give me an opinion external to the Bible itself that helps me determine whether the Bible is accurate. It would be exactly as useless an answer as "I don't want to answer that", but at least that answer's honest.

[@edge8941]

People aren't primarily motivated by what they think is factually true. They care more about what makes them feel good. People who create movements are good at tapping into this so that they can manipulate their following.

[@R99-c2s]

Like wokeness?

[@dragonrykr]

@@R99-c2s Anything really.

[@silent_stalker3687]

You have basically 3 mutually valued: freedom, equality, tradition/stability. Get more of one of these and you get less of the other two. Not everyone values the same thing and others see it differently.

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

Low IQ take

[@CarneadesOfCyrene]

Exactly. The concern with the non-Lewis version of this argument (that he could not be a lunatic because so many people followed him), is that many people follow claims that are not rational, but make them feel good.

[@isaacccol6754]

great series! thank you

[@CarneadesOfCyrene]

Thanks! And thanks for watching!

[@themysteryofbluebirdboulevard]

Why are people here either being offended or questioning the video's title? It's an analysis of something written by CS Lewis, not an attack on your God.

[@jonathan4385]

You must have missed the "Jesus was a lunatic" part lol, you know the person wholely attributed to Christianity's existence

[@Uryvichk]

@@jonathan4385 Did you even watch the first video? C.S. Lewis's point is that "If you think Jesus was a good moral teacher you have to think he's God, because it's impossible that he could be a liar or a lunatic and be a good moral teacher." The point of the video is to explore whether it is logically possible to be a good moral teacher and also a lunatic, using the example of Jesus because that's the example Lewis was also using. Look, imagine you and a friend are debating with an atheist. Your friend, whom you know is also a Christian, starts an argument with "Let's assume there is no God." Would you then throw a petulant fit and demand he retract that statement because of COURSE there is a God? Or would you wait and see what your friend says, which will probably be an argument showing how, if God is assumed not to exist FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT, some part of the atheist's argument doesn't work. If you can understand that your friend is using a rhetorical technique to make a point, you should be able to understand the point of this video. If you can't... well then I'm sorry, but you probably have a very childish understanding of how arguments work.

[@jonathan4385]

@@Uryvichk if there's another video, then I'll hand that mishap right over to KZbin algorithm for incorrectly guiding me to the second video in the series. Otherwise, yes I watched the video.

[@littleghost6102]

Of course being a lunatic doesn't preclude you from getting a large following, just look at (That's not to make some centrist both -sides argument, some people are far more justified making that claim than others.) But really, like Hitler believed some insane shit and acted like a petulant child much of the time he was in power, yet plenty of people liked and followed him, even still like him.

[@Sunflower-k7r4j]

I could say that the one who is behind the video is the biggest liar!. This video is baseless and based on assumptions and not more than that.

[@lgroschiensalle]

"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." (1 John 2:22) Amen brother!

[@bingushatesquad8133]

Imagine calling something baseless when you probably built your entire life/personality on old jewish fairy tales

[@Sunflower-k7r4j]

@@bingushatesquad8133 give me the sources for your claim please!.

[@lgroschiensalle]

@@Sunflower-k7r4j Yes, I too would love to see those sources. Funny how these non-believers will often, very quickly accept any source, no matter how absurd, that the world will throw at them, even if such source has been proven to be unreliable, just as long as it “appears” to disprove or contradict what God has very clearly stated and has made manifest. Oh, and of course, as long as it isn’t from The Holy Bible... Then, they will usually, as always, proceed to make all kinds of extraneous, and preposterous claims. Non-believer: “Hey Barry, guess what, I just proved that there’s no such thing as Barium” Barry: “Really? How’d you do that?” Non-believer: “By throwing out all the samples of Barium!”

[@bingushatesquad8133]

@@Sunflower-k7r4j what claim? about tales? Quite easy. Give me the absolute proof god exists, if you cant, then it doesnt exist, then those book you call sacred become nothing more that tales.

[@fisyfus8035]

I believe someone is a true liar if and only if he*she is also a lunatic and only if he*she is also a god.

[@rossiricco]

Jesus is God but then everything and everyone is too. God is just another name for the universe or existence or everything.

[@martiallaw9509]

As a Christian I’m not afraid of intelligent confrontations.. There’s food for ‘much’ thought here. lol On second viewing I profess this video takes -on a more adroit appraisal than mere speculative theory. By comparison the opposition is still hiding behind faith = Fantasy and Delusion. Yet another necessary video helping to deconstruct man -made nonsense favouring Man -Made Enlightenment.

[@lgroschiensalle]

You won't find even a Nanowatt of intelligence here... The SNR (signal-to-noise ratio) is about −∞ dBm (Zero power is not well-expressed in dBm (value is negative infinity)) Don't waste your time.

[@martiallaw9509]

Like I said “Food for Thought “.The Late comedian and Free Thinker Bill Hicks questioned why the majority of Crazy Cult Leaders professed allegiance to Jesus as dominant. His discourse was hilarious and offensive and hilarious because it was intelligent. R. I. P. Bill Hicks.

[@lgroschiensalle]

@@martiallaw9509 The reason why crazy cult leaders profess allegiance to Jesus is simple to understand: Because the credibility, righteousness and overall reputation of Jesus is absolutely impeccable, while theirs is, at best questionable, and at worst, abominable. For the crazy cult leaders, claiming to follow Jesus simply has the reverse effect of the "guilty by association" concept. Although they themselves, know that they are guilty liars and ungodly deceivers, and are cognizant of this, but by quoting the words of Jesus every once in a while... POOF! They are perceived as righteous... Bill Hicks was definitely not a Christian. He was a sad burnout who died a miserable death. He was full of regret and shame. It's sad really... I never heard him say anything really funny. Here are some of his quotes: “I’m sorry if any of you are catholic. I’m not sorry if you’re offended, I’m actually just sorry by the fact that you’re catholic” - Bill Hicks “I believe that God left certain drugs growing naturally upon our planet to help speed up and facilitate our evolution.” - Bill Hicks “If you’re so pro-life, do me a favour: don’t lock arms and block medical clinics. If you’re so pro-life, lock arms and block cemeteries.” - Bill Hicks “You think when Jesus comes back, he really wants to see a cross? That’s like going up to Jackie Onassis with a rifle pendant on.” - Bill Hicks Plus all the other sick stuff he said and did, while drunk and high on God knows what... Do these words sound like the words of a stable, upright, and honest and pious man? Compare to the words of our Lord and of some of his true followers...

[@martiallaw9509]

@@lgroschiensalle This Typical Christian response is shameful and lacking in the Christic Values you Claim to uphold. I'm a Christian but an enlightened being or maybe I've progressed to a Humanistic World View. Some Atheists are crazy like the Christian Evangelist but BUT most are Enlightened to an Extent. How dare you detract from Bill Hicks wisdom lol 😂 Bill Hicks by the Glory of God Almighty Made me Think and evaluate my position whereas most Christian's elicit Laughter. It's a shambles I admit. 2.5 thousand years of Christianity and the world is thoroughly destroyed and the Infidel are overthrowing us i.e. the supreme idiotic Muslims. We need more Bill Hicks and less Monotheistic (man made nonsense). It's damn hard to remain faithful to a belief system that has Murdered and Raped it's Divine Love through history. Islam is worse because Al-Lah the Moon God is sactified as a god of Hate, Rape and Murder. Religion is Dead. When Hamlet said "I am dead heratio he could have said "I am a Christian Heratio or Muslim ". The Western World is a power 7 thousand years of Greatness. The Renaissance Tried to save OUR culture from the destriction of a loving Christian religion but it failed. Now we have the stupidest beliefs ever. The Sex-Death Cult of ISLAM murdering our culture God (JESUS) Have mercy on us.

[@lgroschiensalle]

@@martiallaw9509 Everything I said about Bill Hicks is true and verifiable. I even quoted some of his *own* words. I don't believe the real Jesus would even be able to stomach Bill Hicks even for one afternoon, much less would he accept him as one of of his disciples. Besides, Bill Hicks didn't repent during his lifetime, he continued on like an undisciplined, immature, rebellious teenager and not surprisingly, he eventually reaped what he had sowed. If to be "enlightened" means to live in a fantasy world where the truth doesn't matter, and washed-up vulgar comedians are perceived to be virtuous, then unfortunately, you continue to walk in darkness. Jesus gave a harsh warning to those who claim to be his disciples and who call him "Lord, Lord": "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21-23) Please don't hate me simply because I remind you of what the Lord has already warned us of, I do so merely as a brother in Christ. Amen.

[@KaiHenningsen]

I'm of course not quite Lewis' target: I don't believe he was a good (or even great) moral teacher[1]. If we are to assume the gospels are at least close to the truth (those being the only info we have about his life), he certainly filled the cult leader box with "leave, even hate your family and follow me". Also, if we believe both the message of love and " I have not come to bring peace, but a sword", insanity seems rather plausible. [1] Everything good he taught was not original. Nothing original was good.

[@CarneadesOfCyrene]

A very good point. And thinking through this and some other comments here, I feel a video or series on why the only good parts of Jesus's ethics were derivative (particularly of Stoicism) would be a very interesting topic to tackle...

[@lgroschiensalle]

@@CarneadesOfCyrene Perhaps a video series of you attempting to refute the truth of the Scriptures, one-by-one, with actual quotes and examples, including verifiable evidence for why each one is false and why they should be rejected. This, followed by a panel of actual, learned, Biblical studies experts who demolish every single one of those claims, one-by-one, and give you a good "schooling". That would make a very interesting series of videos indeed. Heck, even if they were only available through some kind of paywall, I'd pay good money to watch em' all...

[@Dagestanidude]

You're not worthy of him then

[@IngramSnake]

Jesus never says he is God. Early gospels in particular go against this. But he was who he said he was. A prophet and messiah.

[@themysteryofbluebirdboulevard]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/bHu4an1mjbufsLM Pretty sure he strongly implies it in the gospel of John.

[@vlasynca37]

Why was Jesus charged by the Pharisees?

[@themysteryofbluebirdboulevard]

@@vlasynca37 why does the tooth fairy leave money rather than taking some?

[@CarneadesOfCyrene]

As we will note in the next video, many Christian apologists think this is a bad and fallacious argument for Christianity for exactly this reason.

[@vlasynca37]

​@@themysteryofbluebirdboulevard Childish, go stroke your ego somewhere else.

[@mayurjames6005]

1. Passion - You say people follow those who speak with passion, Someone who is willing in their convictions and is willing to do whatever it takes to accomplish them. So what to do you want to say people having passion and conviction in their ideas are Psychopaths? Let me tell you why people follow leaders who are passionate and certain in their convictions because there are very few people in the world who have that sort of passion and clarity regarding their and the other confused worldly people tend to follow leaders who have clarity of mind and conviction in their ideas, according to Psychology having passion and self confidence about your own ideas is one of the most attracting factor that draws people towards you. 2. Selective = Jesus was having hallucinations that he was talking to God, walking on water, or raising dead. These were not the claims that Jesus simply dead, he did this miracles in front of other people. The four gospels are proof of that, Luke was a doctor and by this you can get that he was not simply the one who would trust miracles and all that stuff but in his gospel he writes about all the miracles. if a Person simply says that he can do miracles and talk to God yes he can be called as insane, but when people are eye witness to that and not one but almost the whole country you are rather insane who claims Jesus was a lunatic. 3. Savant = Jesus teaching are completely unique and questions the ways people live in this world, Jesus said if someone slaps you on one of your cheeks show them the other so that they can hit on that also, Jesus taught forgiveness and proved his teachings on the cross when he said Forgive them as they don't know what they are doing and let me tell you the death of Jesus was the most painful death in history. He was presented in five courts but was declared innocent in all five of them. 4. Lucky - If that is the case than some of the teaching would have been wrong but all his teachings show mirror to the world of living a life in a wrong way. and tomorrow a madman will come to you and say just kill your family, then just kill your family because if he is a madman that does not invalidate of what he says right ! so just go and do whatever he says and start following what he says. 5. Possibilities - Jesus said that he was Son of God, and not only him his executioner who executed him on cross said that he was truly Son of God Unsubscribing from your channel Thanks !!

[@Ansatz66]

"The four gospels are proof of that." How can the gospels prove that the stories they tell are actually true?

[@Uryvichk]

1. Passion and sanity are not correlated. Very delusional people can be quite passionate, like the author Philip K. Dick. Very sane people can be incredibly boring and unmotivated. 2. The Gospels were written anonymously decades after Jesus would have died, and the names ascribed to them are inventions based on nothing. The author of Luke was most certainly not an eyewitness, because he says so in Luke 1: "Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word." Handed down TO US, as in, he was NOT one of the eyewitnesses "from the first." He's trying to assemble a narrative from oral tradition and compile it, and he's not the first person do to this and knows it. As for the claim I think you're making, that a person couldn't be delusional if other people witnessed them working the miracles they claimed they could do, that might be true, but the Gospels cannot be taken as accurate accounts that miracles actually did happen. Even if we assume they did, however, it's possible to be able to work miracles and still be deluded. For instance, Satan could have convinced Jesus that God was granting him the power to do miracles when in fact it was Satan doing it to convince people to believe in Jesus and go astray. Jesus would then be deluded by partial justification. 3. None of Jesus's teachings were unique, either to his time or to any time. And many of his teachings are obviously stupid, like never resisting evil, unless you incorrectly believe (as he did) that the world was ending very soon. Also, he was definitely found guilty by at least one court, probably of sedition or treason (since the punishment for blasphemy was stoning), and he could very well have been guilty. 4. Some of Jesus's teachings WERE wrong. That only makes it more likely that he was lucky with the teachings that were right, not less. 5. The Gospels have been deliberately doctored and edited, and one popular thing to do is add random capitalization to things to make them seem more important. Lots of people were "sons of God" in that time, and Greek doesn't really have capital letters, and article agreement can be fudged, so how do we know that guy (if he existed) thought Jesus was the Son of God (the actual son of the actual God) or merely a son of God (a holy or admirable man)? The claim becomes much weaker if the soldier is simply saying something akin to "Wow, that guy was actually pretty cool, shame he had to die." In Luke, he merely says Jesus was surely a righteous man. That also presumes this soldier actually existed and actually said that, which is probably not the case, as the character does not appear every account (he's not present in John). But even if he did... so? How would some random centurion at the crucifixion know with any reliability that the guy they crucified was the Son of God? Why would that count as any sort of evidence, even if he really said that? Why would it even if he really BELIEVED that?

[@The53rrc]

He could have been, but other than that he had strong convictions and adamant in his beliefs and philosophies. Wouldn't budge.

[@penandsword4386]

Failed Messiah at best, No real evidence of a living person. 90% likelihood of it being a Greek novel, sponsored by Rome.

[@thearmchairmystic]

Or perhaps he was exactly who he said he was. I've learned the scriptures hold more truth about human nature than any modern DSM-5 written also by flawed human beings with no understanding of spiritual reality beyond their narrow 3D view as lesser creatures of an evolutionary nature. Why do you think that he is constantly mocked and or dismissed in mass media/Hollywood? Why is there such an agenda against him and his teachings? Yet why is he also the name everyone proclaims naturally when they stub their toe or get scared or experience near death?

[@Uryvichk]

That's entirely beside the point of the series: The point is to examine C.S. Lewis's specific argument that Jesus MUST HAVE BEEN God because he COULD NOT have been lying or insane AND a good moral teacher. That's the claim being looked at here. If it is logically possible that Jesus could have been lying or insane and still have been a good moral teacher, Lewis's argument fails. The argument failing does not mean Jesus's claims (if he made them) are false, only that they are not true for the reasons Lewis said they must be true; likewise, the logical possibility that Jesus was lying does not constitute a claim that Jesus actually WAS lying, only that he COULD HAVE BEEN, and if that's not impossible, it confounds the trilemma.

[@thearmchairmystic]

@@Uryvichk I'm speaking primarily in regards to the blatantly crass and disgusting title of this video. But I say to you and also C.S. Lewis, that the way Jesus was described does not seem that lies were in him and in fact, his entire story is one of speaking truth in an untruthful time and simultaneously, offending a morally repugnant people of little spiritual understanding.

[@checkered5087]

@@thearmchairmystic May I know why you find this video's title disgusting? Jesus' claims about the world were quite radical at the time and quite bizzare which may be a sign of mental illness

[@themysteryofbluebirdboulevard]

Humans wrote the Bible too, I think you said that, but just clarifying. There's no agenda, people are sick of the "victim narrative" of the biggest, most influential religion. Gimme a break. Not to mention that dsm is not a book about spirituality, magic, or your imaginary friends.

[@CarolynOsborne]

If I were choosing a text that describes humans well, it would likely not be the DSM5.

[@CMVMic]

Yeah, he definitely was a lunatic. He was delusional

[@CarneadesOfCyrene]

Many would agree with you. That said, Lewis's argument is especially weak, we don't even need to prove that Jesus was a lunatic, just that he could have been, a much lower bar. I think it is at least possible that he never existed at all, or was so different from the character described in the Bible as to be effectively fictional, but I don't know which (Liar, Lunatic, Legend) is the most likely.

[@CMVMic]

@@CarneadesOfCyrene couldn't he be all three i.e. liar, lunatic and legend? Food for thought. I agree with all the suggested possibilities. Enjoyed the video! Keep up the great work

[@lgroschiensalle]

@@CarneadesOfCyrene Yeah, Jesus never existed at all? Even the most hardcore "evangelical" atheists don't believe nor promote that silly lie, you know, the ones that actually go out of their way to "preach" atheism. They'd be booed of stage before they even began their abortion of a "sermon"...

[@Rsoqwerty]

​@@lgroschiensalleThese soulless charlatans aren't at all interested in the truth. They just read to sell what they have discovered. He is so oblivious to the obvious fact of Jesus's historicity yet have the nerve to make analysis of christian apologetic work. I hate the world, I hate how cheap everyone is.

[@lgroschiensalle]

@@Rsoqwerty You're on the right track. And you're not the only one to hate this world... "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." (I John 2:15) Amen.

[@supersasquatch]

Looking forward to the Mohamed version, oh wait, you won't do it /clap

[@quixotes4478]

This is incoherent, Islamic Apologetics don't have a version of the trilemma, particularly because they don't even believe Muhammand was lord. Might as well ask why he won't do a "Xenu version"

[@CarneadesOfCyrene]

If you have an argument for Islam that you think is fallacious I am more than happy to take it on. This is focused solely on Jesus because Lewis's argument is not for theism in general, it is specifically for Christianity. I have a video I have been meaning to put together on Free Speech vs the Prophet Muhammad for a while, so you may see it sooner than you think!

[@richardleeson5234]

Not sure that you have constructed an argument rather than expressed an opinion? Distinct lack of clear sources and little examination of opposing views

[@CarneadesOfCyrene]

I am objecting to an argument, not constructing one of my own. Lewis claims that it is logically impossible for someone to be a "lunatic" and still be a good moral teacher. I offer thought experiments to show that this claim is false. For Lewis's original argument, check out the first video in this series. kzbin.info/www/bejne/nHLYf5qIbbp1mas

[@richardleeson5234]

@@CarneadesOfCyrene If you are not constructing an argument of your own why do you begin by saying you are "making the case that Jesus was a lunatic"? Surely you should have some psychological evaluation of his personality with some likely mental illnesses/disorders?

[@gabrielborges6593]

He was a lunatic.