Jhana Comes Only After Renunciation

MN 19: Dvedhāvitakkasutta
Understanding where the problem of sensual thoughts is
Thoughts of Renunciation for safety and pleasure of relief
Calming the thoughts altogether in jhana
____________________________________
If you wish to support the monks of the Hillside and this channel you are very welcome to do so by donating at:
www.hillsidehe...
____________________________________
For other forms of Dhamma Teachings see:
www.hillsidehe...

[@fruitionapt]

Safety within the pressure. That’s very helpful to keep in mind. Thank you Ajahn

[@diegodejesusparedesortega6941]

Dear Ajahn, thank you for your efforts. Your teachings on dhamma have been and continue to be very beneficial to me. 🙏☸️

[@theinngu5560]

🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼Wonderfully clear ..despite hearing this teaching long ago, I didn’t really see the vital importance of this. Now see that off the cushion it is vital important to guard the mind in regard to sense pleasures, even amongst those who don’t

[@bkhpanigha]

There is a good sutta (AN 8:63, saṁkhittasutta) related to the point at 13:22, where the Buddha advises a monk that before he starts developing the 'release of mind' (in this case through brahmavihāra culminating in Jhāna), he must first make his mind well-steadied and no longer taken by arisen unwholesome states.

[@hariharry391]

🙏

[@FredericMoreauful]

Also, thank you again for the latest book, the five hinderances section is my favourite and super helpful!

[@hunteryonce4503]

What's the book called?

[@lamarguitar]

Bhante, as a lay person and householder, is it fair to say that we should only become entangled in "the world" as much as necessary to fulfill our duties as prescribed in the suttas? Meaning that we should not delight in secular pursuits and avoid becoming entangled in politics, parties, etc.?

[@elizabetha.corley5240]

Bhante, thank you so much for this excellent teaching. This helps me so much with my practice.

[@Dharmaku56]

The title says everything!

[@שגהש]

I only read the title so I hope I’m not misunderstanding the meaning of it. But I just want to say that Jhana is definitely achievable for lay people.

[@alakso777]

🙏🏼

[@gaggablagblag9997]

Wise words

[@hunteryonce4503]

Thank you venerable sir. I wanted to apologize for asking a question in the past which you probably never entertained and have now forgotten about, which was deeply rooted in sensuality and ideas of ownership. I sincerely apologize for impeding on your cow pasture with my crop.

[@marka2188]

Excellent talk. Beautifully explained. Based on my understanding it is good if you can compare and contrast jhana meditation vs Satipatthana Sutta (MN10) vs loving kindness meditation (Sn 143-152). Though these methods also can easily take a practitioner to jhanas they have other goals. Thank you.

[@bkhpanigha]

There are many suttas such as the one discussed here which contain the usual phrase that describes entering jhāna ("joy arises, body becomes calm, etc.). They describe efforts such as recollecting the Buddha (MN 7), restraining unwholesome states in regard to each of the six senses (SN 35.246), and of course the relevant MN 19&20 which only talk about purifying one's thoughts. AN 5.26 even speaks of 5 different ways of establishing samādhi, and only the very last of them is through attending a specific "samādhinimitta", which I guess would correspond to the usual satipaṭṭhāna practice. Does this mean that one can establish jhāna simply through the very broad efforts of purifying one's thinking from unwholesome states (given that one can accurately discern what those are), despite the fact that jhāna is said to be a type of mindfulness of the body? (Though of course the latter still involves purifying one's thinking, just with a more specific emphasis).

[@Neelakhe]

Can you please explain and share about Attakari sutta that ciuld benefit all of us? Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu 🙏

[@user-tx5zl1ub7p]

Thank you, sir. If I may ask a question: what are your criteria for making sure that you are not managing your pain? I usually don't try to think at all and just watch while enduring the pressure, hoping it will go away on its own. But sometime while enduring, some thoughts of recognizing that pain arose on its own would make the pain go away. Would that also be rooted in management? Also, since you have emphasized making the body stronger through working out, is it ok to feed the body more food? I only eat once a day, but since I started to work out, I was thinking the body might need food 2 time for recovery?

[@HillsideHermitage]

Things won't be perfect in the beginning, but as long as you don't forget that you should not be managing the pain you'll be ok, even if sometimes the thoughts of management come up. You can eat more if you are hungrier to eat more, but don't eat more simply because you exercise.

[@TomGovernale]

When your cows finish that which your own crops can afford to yield for the day, don’t let them wander into someone else’s crops to keep eating :)

[@FredericMoreauful]

Ok, understood! Question though, is it best to simultaneously to this task to establish an anchor for the mind in, for example, the knowledge of “I am breathing” ? Or is that unnecessary if you can keep an eye on the mind and thoughts without a specific anchor? It’s like, it’s easier to not take the thoughts personally as they arise when the mind is established on the “sensitive to mind while breathing” but at the same time remembering the breathing can be distracted you from the mind… maybe I’m just stuck in a halfway house!

[@HillsideHermitage]

Those are two different practices. Anchoring yourself in breathing is something you can do AFTER your mind is trained and thinks only wholesome thoughts. Until then the work is as described in this talk. (If sometimes the work gets too much, you can spend time calming your mind by being mindful of breathing. Although that's not true anapanasati (for which the Right view is required), it is still better than giving in and breaking the precepts).

[@eogh]

Bhante, how can we avoid falling into the trap of becoming a "sour puss" by becoming more and more renunciate? In my time as a catholic monk I have noticed this.

[@HillsideHermitage]

By renouncing the mind of ill-will as well.

[@SBCBears]

Bhante, it seems to me that when desired states of mind occur, they go unrecognized at first. Recognition of the desired state only occurs with further practice-- that is, when we recognize a particular state, sometimes we can recall experiencing that state earlier in our practice. The earlier state would have been fleeting and unstable, but further practice stabilizes the framework for the experience to re-arise and finally be recognized for what it is. Instead of a simple mechanical process of achieving one state which is immediately thoroughly and solidly present and known for what it is, we often don't recognize the state when it first arises. This process seems analogous to ripening and fruition. Is it a common experience to enter a state and not know it for what it is and only later to recognize it?

[@HillsideHermitage]

Yes, but it is more accurate and safer to only regard "recognizing of a state" as "entering it". Anything BELOW that threshold of knowledge/recognition should not be taken at the face value.

[@cliffmilbrun2803]

Once when I first started attempting to meditate and practice living moral correct when I wasn't to sure of how to go about that there was a time when my mind was so calm it was so apperent I looked at my wife and said I need to leave right now and sit in this. I got up went somewhere quiet and and sat into this calmness that felt like I really was abiding in it. That phenomenon was as clear as day like the background noise of my mind turned off. Not the thoughts just the disturbence. I never experienced that again . I was practicing calming my mind with my breath on and off continuously for maybe a month but when this phenomenon happened my eyes were open. And out of all my meditation experiences and what I learned I think that was the mental phenomenon that happened before jhana. I sat secluded with my eyes open experiencing clear mind without background noise. Another thing that stood out was they way I felt like this should be sat in or lived in or what the suttas say he abides in. I felt like I should sit in this (mind)

[@karrimzz]

@@cliffmilbrun2803 Attaining a particular mind state is not the aim of Buddhist practice. It is attaining wisdom that should be the goal

[@manifestation5349]

Thank you Bhante 1) I actually have made some progress by "believing 100% in freedom" beacuse just thinking was not enough for me I was blocked from getting to the positive state Bhante can one just switft from being imersed and attached in a painful thought that we feel trapped in to something else do we have that power can we decide not to be attached at all by our own decision and being free, no matter how strange it sounds just that faith and belief would allow me to take that power back which I have given up and whch is going on on autopilot and which I feel that there might be the possibility to get back but need your guidence here, when you say dont think unwholesome thoughts. I want to apply that in my situation. Is "dont think unwholesome thoughts" meaning the same as dont believe in negative beliefs?, and is think wholesome thoughts believe in good beliefs? I am asking that because to believe for me atleast is much more clearer instruction on what to do. Bhante for instance in the situation of being trapped in pain is the mind believing this on its own first and not me I am asking this beacause usually we dont think that the mind can think anything and especially not something that concerns me a me story nevertheless understanding this would help me. Seccondly when it believes (if it is the mind that believes it) is that already touching us unpleasantly although that is not our problem yet?, When do we get engaged with it is it when we start believing what it believes and how to distinguish between the thought being there on its own and touching me unpleasantly and me engaging with it. I am asking this because I want to see that for my self. Also is it upon us to not think anything or believe anything bad about pain is that our choice like can I decide not to think anything nor believe anything when the pain is there just that knowledge would be a boost for me also. Since I got overwhelmed by pain and went on autopilot I have given up my responsbility and not really seeing what my doing is clearly enough but by understanding it with faith I would dirrectly stop doing it. This has become the new normal although its nowehere near as before I have made clear progress. Basically I need to see it clearer what is there on its own in my situation and then what my doing is is it believing it and how I would know that I am doing it and is it a matter of just deciding to not believe it anymore and realize it was a concious choice I did of believing it and not somehting unconciously or automatically ? 2) You have said body acts on its own and you regard that as seccondary to our volitional action that we choose to perform how to see this same principle in regards to the mind and thoughts? 3) Bhante also you said in one of your videos the eyes objects and the domain of seeing is there on its own and your ownership is seccondary to it , you can choose to look at this and not look at that and that is the partial ownership that you have but its within the fudamental non ownership of you being subjected to seeing. Bhante how to see this same principle in regards to mind and thoughts you said in that clip unless we are clear about all domains we will be assuming and I am not clear about the thoughts and mind.

[@nigelsheppard625]

Would a layperson be able to sufficiently renounce the world in order to achieve Jhana?

[@HillsideHermitage]

If a layperson can be celibate and withdrawn within the worldly environment, then yes, it is possible.

[@nigelsheppard625]

@@HillsideHermitage Thank you Ayya, Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu 🙏🙏🙏

[@Stinkyremy]

So you are saying when a klesha arises in ones mind, one is then to just observe it rather than use an antidote? This seems to go against my understanding that one should not give attention to the kleshas as it leads to them clouding our mind, but just to observe them using satiphattana.

[@karrimzz]

Observing does not mean 'give attention' . When you say 'observe them using satiphattana' how is it any different?

[@manifestation5349]

@@karrimzz Karim I just came back to youtube . I want to try the technique you were suggesting to me. Could you please send it to me I really need to understand for my self. But really if I only could get advice from someone maybe I just need to stop believing that I am trapped in pain. Is that the unwholesome thought that I am believing that is creating the problem. I just need to understand it and I know that I will dirrectly stop doing it once I realize that it is upon me to not do it. Because it has become autopilot. But as I said just understanding that it is upon me to not do it would help me stop it.

[@zoomerbemen]

The confusion may arise, if you associate kilesa as the object instead of the mind entertaining it. If there is any use of an "antidote", its to develop the unbeneficial mind into a beneficial one, instead of replacing an object with a supposed "wholesome" object. Mind is always the forerunner for all phenomenon.

[@1hullofaguy]

Bante, I recent read an essay by Ajahn Brahmali that argued that parinibbana consisted of the cessation of the khandhas and nothing more. What are your thoughts on this?

[@HillsideHermitage]

Any description, WITHIN the five aggregates, describing what is AFTER the five aggregates, cannot be an accurate description. As Culavedalla sutta says: -"What is the counterpart of Nibbana?" -"Friend Visakha, you have overstepped the bounds of inquiry. You were not able to understand the limitation of inquiries. For the holy life, friend Visakha, merges in Nibbana, culminates in Nibbana, ends in Nibbana."

[@1hullofaguy]

@@HillsideHermitage Thanks!