Jimmy Akin vs James White: Sola Scriptura

[@mitchjones7314]

Im a protestant (non-denom) pastor and I have some issues with some of the teachings of the Catholic church - that being said Jimmy is one of the best spoken and most rhetorically consistent catholics I have heard.

[@JimmyAkin]

Thank you so much, Reverend! God bless you, and please let me know if I can ever be of service!

[@TravisBringsIt]

Nobody: James White: "I don't have much time so I'll get right to the point and reiterate what I told Father Michael Schmichael when we debated in 1987 in the 2nd floor conference room of the Ramada Inn in St. Louis; now, keep in mind it was extraordinarily humid,my alarm clock malfunctioned (it was made by GE and I haven't bought anything from them since) so I woke late and had to skip breakfast, and the entire room smelled like cigarette smoke because you could still smoke indoors in the 80s..."

[@TheYoungCatholics]

This gave me a good belly laugh 😊

[@Musingnotes]

Best comment.

[@sebwoz8766]

😂😂😂

[@pattip2788]

😂😂😂

[@LearnedJohn]

💀

[@kathyweiland4732]

Every time I hear James White it confirms for me how blessed I am to be Catholic following the Church that Christ established not a man-made Church established during the Protestant Reformation

[@jhabernathy690]

You are blessed to be headed to hell? That is where the Catholic church prepares its members to attend.

[@RyoPwn]

God Bless you Jimmy, love all of your debates Praised be Jesus Christ now and forever ✝

[@tobiasruck]

As a Catholic, I really tried hard to be on James side, but almost immediately I was “no, that’s not convincing” and “that’s just mean and off-topic”. Also attacking Jimmy for using slides just seems weak. Huge props to Jimmy for staying calm and sticking to the debate! I did learn one thing though from James: How did the Jews know what made up the Old Testament? Jimmy’s answer “they don’t” was spot on, and that’s how I realized what a great gift from God the Magisterium is.

[@TruthHasSpoken]

" the Jews know what made up the Old Testament?" At the time of Jesus, The Disapora Jews - and they were no less Jews - used the Septuagint which includes all the Catholic OT books, as well as a few more that the Orthodox hold as inspired. James is just flat out WRONG on lumping all Jews together. Michael Kruger fails on this one too.

[@tricord2939]

You feel this way because you do not understand what the subject was. Not understanding what sola Scriptura is & is not is a roadblock for many people. White made the case for Sola Scriptura as demonstrated by Jesus and the apostles when refuting Satan and the religious Jewish leaders.

[@TruthHasSpoken]

@@tricord2939 "Not understanding what sola Scriptura is" That protestantism has varying definitions of Sola Scriptura is more evidence just how unscriptural it is. Even James White admits, "sola scriptura" is not found in scripture. He's a hypocrite for holding others to a standard he does not hold to himself.

[@tricord2939]

@@TruthHasSpoken Dismissed 🤣😂😅

[@tricord2939]

“They don’t” Yes the Jews know their scriptures. Jimmy is mistaken.

[@protestanttoorthodox3625]

White spends most of his time vilifying Rome rather than defending the preposterous 16th century idea of Sola Scriptura… good job Jimmy from an Eastern Orthodox brother

[@irishamerican8790]

Augustine believed sola scriptura. odd that you hate scripture that much that you would refute Augustine.

[@protestanttoorthodox3625]

@@irishamerican8790 the Saints and Holy Fathers of my church wrote compiled and canonized the scripture. We love the scripture. The scriptures are a document of the church and a liturgical document. Your comment is ridiculous.

[@catholicrusader7]

@@irishamerican8790No he doesnt. Protestants hate scripture they butcher the meaning and remove books you guys dont even have a set canon whose to say 200 years from now prots dont remove more books because you reject tradition which tells u the authoriship

[@theSpaghettimeister]

@@irishamerican8790 "But should you meet with a person not yet believing the gospel, how would you reply to him were he to say, I do not believe? For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. " - St Augustine of Hippo, Against the Fundamental Epistle of Manichaeus He explains that the only way one can accept the Gospel is to accept the Church, and if one rejects the Church they cannot possibly accept the Gospel This is not the attitude of a Sola Scriptura adherent, not at all.

[@holdintheaces7468]

He starts right off with spurious attacks on the Catholic positions. 2 minutes in he's talking about a completely different subject, taking a random opportunity to attack a unrelated belief. If his points were valid, he wouldn't have to be so aggressive with his language and his points, especially in his opening statements.

[@susand3668]

I do not understand how James White can think that Sola Scriptura is a source of unity for Protestants! My Protestant family has concluded that there is no church that holds the fullness of the Gospel. Each of my nephews attends a different church, with different doctrines, and they can all quote scriptures to support will those contradictory teachings -- sometimes by very circuitous reasoning, like James White's assertion that Hebrews 1:1 teaches that there will be no new Apostles! But that tactic of over-loading, while not strictly correct as a debating technique, is very effective for swaying the listeners! For the other commenters, I will list the two things that irked me the most, that James White brought up, which were too far afield to respond to during the debate: 1) In "Fiducia Supplicans", Pope Francis and the Magisterium said NOTHING that James White would not agree with about the welcome the Church MUST give to people struggling with same-sex attraction and how we as Christians MUST pray for them -- which is the meaning of the term "bless" when speaking of persons. AND Pope Francis reiterated that homosexual ACTS are sinful, and the ACTS (the UNIONS) cannot be blessed, in the sense of approval. (To be fair, James White did murmur something about "I know" when you, Jimmy, gave him a little correction that the Church is not supportive of same-sex marriages.) James White made an erroneous claim that Pope Honorius I (625-638) was declared a heretic by 4 popes (I think that's the number he gave). In point of fact, no pope considered Pope Honorius I to have been a heretic. The Council of Constantinople III (680) found Pope Honorius I to have been in the wrong for failing to stop the Monothelite heresy. That same council affirmed that no pope had ever taught heresy. This debate was certainly enthralling! Thank you so much!

[@zacharyahearn4069]

Pope Honorious gets slandered even more than Pope Francis.

[@TheGreekCatholic]

It was rather mind boggling that James white thinks eventually sola scriptura would unite the tribes. It's scary to think that he actually espoused that when it's obviously proved to be impossible.

[@TheGreekCatholic]

​@zacharyahearn4069 it's frustrating that pope honorius anathema was based on his lack of decisiveness with the monothelism controversy. It had nothing to do with any of his official teachings as a pope. These old gotcha moments are getting really tired.

[@TruthHasSpoken]

The fruit of sola scriptura was, is, and shall ever be, doctrinal chaos, confusion, and division.

[@michaelmasztal7871]

Exactly! A point so obvious that to ignore it is intellectually dishonest.

[@pgk60]

Thank you Mr. Akin. I really enjoy your videos and podcasts.

[@INAA9911]

Instead of defending sola scriptura, James White used his time attacking Catholic teachings that are not the topic of the debate.

[@EliasRendonJr]

Say it louder for the ones in the back🗣️🗣️🗣️❣️

[@guesswho22peekaboo]

That's how he debates most Catholics....

[@paulblum4369]

He seems usually to do this in all his debates! Red Herrings.

[@paulblum4369]

I actually redact my previous comment! The debate was not about Sola Scriptura per se. It was actually that there are no necessary revelations outside of scripture! So, he was anticipating Jimmy!

[@Jilli8310]

I noticed, and I'm not trying to attack Protestants here, but anytime there is a friendly debate or discussion of any kind whether public or even in my own private life, it always turns into a Catholic bashing session. I also see a great deal of ex-Catholics who are very poorly catechized doing the same. Is it because they get flustered? Or just because they are wired that way? I don't know but it's sad. There should be no divisions. ❤

[@dezlovecraft5247]

Thank you so much Jimmy! This was great, the composure, calling his attitude out, his fallacy, very solid thruout the whole debate. You should put the membership for the channel!

[@ShawnCook-u4g]

The fact James gets so defensive tells me he wasn't confident he was winning the debate, lol

[@joserp51]

James White has no true argument for sola scriptura so he attacks the Catholic church. Even if the Catholic Church and the Pope is false that still wouldn’t prove sola scriptura. He says sola scriptura is true today, but not true at some point in the past. You also have to go outside of sola scriptura to prove its own doctrine.

[@xpictos777]

Exactly. I am Orthodox, so his "Scary Rome" arguments are meaningless. No one believed Sola Scriptura for 1500 years. It has never been true and he is debating the whole Apostolic Tradition not just Rome.

[@Jerome616]

Amazing work Jimmy, stay humble and keep explaining our faith!

[@heidiaraneta1660]

Roman Catholic Church against all denominations, but still Roman Catholic Church stays stronger as many protestants contradicts its the more that more people who are watching and listening to this site are becoming Catholics, i am from the Philippines and thanks Mr. Akin for your very cool conversation with White 😊 keep the faith alive,Mabuhay ang RRC!

[@ItcHSniping]

Excellent job, Jimmy Akin! May God bless you and continue to fill you with His Holy Spirit!

[@ronaldt442]

Jimmy Akin the future Saint. Good Job Jimmy!

[@ericgatera7149]

Excellent exchange to both James (Akin and White). Mr. Akins did as expected, he was on target and evidentiary driven. Well done. Coudos!

[@nanagaga2001]

Great debate! I wish Jimmy had specifically pointed out that the Catholic Church doesn't put tradition above the bible. That seems to be what Mr. White was pushing.

[@slow9573]

Your conclusion was a masterpiece. Bravo.

[@orangemanbad]

Jimmy you really won this debate, but James was in an unfair position: it’s nearly impossible for a new age religion to somehow claim they were the original church.

[@KamenAmerica]

Within the first 10 minutes, this gentleman makes a “scattershot” approach to debate where he presents both debatable points AND speculative conjecture (“the state of Africa today”) to prime the audience. It’s frustrating but Jimmy, as always, does a great job.

[@adamabiding263]

Your patience is inspiring! God bless.

[@gaspartiznado6418]

I started a drinking game for every time Dr. White mentioned “Marian dogmas”. Needless to say, I’m not drinking again for a while.

[@tafazziReadChannelDescription]

Great job Jimmy! I'm disappointed that White, rather than trying to prove the resolution is true, spent his entire time painting "Rome" as a villain, even using absolutely unfair characterizations of apostolic tradition.

[@joshie3336]

A good majority of calvinistic protestants paint rome as the whore of Babylon and it's disgusting

[@tricord2939]

You need to view the video without your prescriptions.

[@tafazziReadChannelDescription]

@@tricord2939 what do you mean?

[@tricord2939]

@@tafazziReadChannelDescription What I wrote. 😀

[@tafazziReadChannelDescription]

@@tricord2939 Protestant fails to understand the basic truth that two people can read the same word and reach different conclusions (if he realized this he'd stop being protestant).

[@LuisGomez-gd7pp]

To mr james white I thank you you have pushed me closer to the one Holy Catholic And Apostilic church

[@SY-tk2eg]

God bless you Jimmy!

[@bullyboy131]

Why would the Catholic church create book to destroy itself?

[@johntarihao2264]

Wow. God bless you Akin...

[@cyndephillipshohbein8232]

While everything in the Bible may be true, Not everything that is true is in the Bible ~~~

[@darlameeks]

Mr. White said that Jesus paid no mind to the Jewish authorities, but that's not true. Jesus did, in fact, show deference to the Jewish Magisterium. He told His followers to obey the teachers of the law and the Pharisees because "they sit in Moses' seat"; i.e., Moses' office. He only added that the people should not do as they did, and went on to describe their hypocrisies in detail. (See Matt. 23:1-7). This means we are bound by the Magisterium of the Church because of their office, not because they are perfect people. We trust the Holy Spirit to protect us from grave error. Also, didn't Jesus draw some of His teachings from what is now known as the Jewish Mishnah? The Mishnah is not considered Scripture, right? I can't find it in my copy of the OT. So didn't Jesus teach from writings that were outside of what we now know as the Old Testament? So, Jesus did not observe Sola Scriptura Himself, correct?

[@Steven_piedra]

You are fantastic Jimmy 😎

[@Highproclass]

Jimmy crushed it - excellent work. Got me looking at Rome like 🤔🧐⛪️

[@anahigarza]

I'm so glad we have more recent debates from Jimmy! He is even sharper than before and yet still so charitable.

[@sissybrooks8588]

That James White is a wicked and dangerous man. Yikes.

[@Mmichael1]

Trent exposed your lack of preparation and Jimmy exposed it even more.

[@Danboy0001]

Oh my, it thought it would be bad but now I've watched this James White was absolutely destroyed. I started to feel embarrassed for him, especially in the cross examination.

[@elusive4072]

Lol keep dreaming buddy.

[@drugsmadilla]

​@@elusive4072ratio'd

[@kmatz09]

James White losing debates. Name a better duo. At this point I think it’s a fetish of his

[@kingleary1829]

If one made a copy of this debate and muted all the words that had theological content related to the debate topic, it would still be easy to look at body language, speaking style, asides, exhibits of pride and so on, and to draw a firm conclusion of which side looks more Christ-like.

[@carlosux]

this is often how real truth comes out.

[@Mmichael1]

Great work Jimmy.

[@joshnewhouse61]

You’re incredibly intelligent and it shows. It shows how much you’ve studied and cross examined church teaching/ church evidence for yourself to come to the same conclusion that the magisterial authority declares as dogma. Very professional even when you came back with the murder of missionaries. You clearly have prepared for this and your understanding of the debate structure was leveraged but not so arduously that you lost your professional character or integrity. Well done!

[@tonyl3762]

Despite my own couple suggestions, you did an outstanding job as usual! I will wait for you to upload part 2 here rather than watch/comment on other channel.

[@Fiona2254]

Show me 4,000+ denominations and I’ll show you a failed doctrine. When there is no authority there is room to leave and form your own convenient church just like the fathers of their churches left.

[@malachi487]

Great job Mr. Akin!

[@TheZebbedee12]

Another great performance by Jimmy! Thank you for defending Jesus's Body from false teachings.

[@calebsmith1899]

James White may be the top Catholic apologist of our time.

[@thomasbailey921]

James White always seems like hes forgotten the topic of the debate whenever its about Sola Scriptura. Somehow, he always ends up trying to twist it into a debate about Papal Infallibility. Cmon Mr. White, prove that Sola Scriptura is true! We're all waiting!

[@Fassnight]

Yeah, it hurts his position. I understand that it is what the debate really comes down to, but he needs to actually take the affirmative position

[@Slod_the_Sasquatch_1095]

1:41:19 - that MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE!!! -- is that not “circular reasoning “???-- so basically- if nobody can understand or agree about the meaning of scripture, then make sure whatever you settle on is congruent with scripture?….. is Protestantism new age ? Like whatever floats your boat or whatever you feel is right in your own eyes is your own personal truth? … like the song: 🎶 “YOUR OWN… duh deh nuh…. PERSONAL …. deh nuh…. JESUS 🎶 …. I was born Protestant and thank GOD I found out that I don’t have to be

[@notpants2810]

“Notice how Jimmy already has his rebuttal slides prepared before he even heard what I said” Well James, you don’t exactly change what you say from debate to debate very often…

[@davidclark5618]

James White 100% engages in overloading. Not only is it unfair to the opponent, but also really confusing and hard for the audience to follow. He may not be doing it intentionally but he’s 100% doing it. Also, Protestant here.

[@bradleesargent]

If James White is correct then why doesn't he own slaves or become a slave since slavery is clearly taught by the apostle Paul in scripture.

[@dottorb7054]

He is a slave to pride

[@arsenicrice9990]

I LOVED Jimmy's question at 1:11:11 "Are you assuming that there is nothing outside of Scripture that is also the Word of God" because as we all know Jesus Christ is the Word of God. How sad and limiting, and insulting to our Lord, to say that nothing besides Sacred Scripture is the Word of God!

[@richardlamb71]

The canon of scripture by itself refutes sola scriptura

[@Fassnight]

No it doesn't. The Catholic church didn't canonize the Old Testament, but still recognize it as canonical. So the argument falls flat.

[@EmberBright2077]

​@@Fassnight When was the Old Testament canonized, and by who?

[@Lambdamale.]

The Catholic Church had to appeal to scripture to establish its authority, THUS it establishes the principle of Sola Scriptura. To add....Jimmy Aiken did just this within the first 5 minutes of his opening statement. He lost RIGHT off the hop.

[@EmberBright2077]

@@Lambdamale. You need to rely on the Church's infallibility to have Scripture...

[@Lambdamale.]

@@EmberBright2077 Not really. If I want to know what the early church taught, I would simply go back to the founding documents which just happen to be....the scriptures.

[@smallmole]

Seeing as the Protestant church rarely, if ever, disputes minor doctrinal differences and would NEVER become divided over differences in doctrine James Whites criticisms of the Catholic Churches recent controversy being caused by a lack of Sola Scriptura appear to be sound. Oh…

[@jvlp2046]

St. Paul taught about standing firm and holding on to the Oral/Verbal Traditions and Written Scriptures including Epistles, in the condition that both must not have CONTRADICTION with each other. (ref. 2 Thessalonians 2:15)... However, if there were contradictions, the WRITTEN Traditions must supersede (overrule) the ORAL Traditions... Praise be to God in Christ Jesus. Amen.

[@zsofiasz.8533]

It was brilliant! Thank you, Jimmy Akin!

[@sonialorris]

James White needs to stop debating against "Rome" as if sola scriptura was held by all Christianity except Rome. Nope James, Sola Scriptura is held ONLY by protestants. All apostolic christians refute it.

[@mikederp9612]

Amazing how 1200 years after thr bible was canonized we suddenly got a few who told us no no all we need is the bible as if they are smarter and know early christanity better than the early christians. At the same time talking about how we only need the bible when...it was the catholic church who canonized what went in it and protestants decided to take out books just to fit their beliefs.

[@guesswho22peekaboo]

1:17:46 if it's the most useless doctrine you've ever heard, then why do you and other protestants feel the need to turn it into a strawman and attack it? Either you don't understand it, or you're refusing to understand it.

[@cantrait7311]

Great job Jimmy you presented your position very professionally and with plenty of knowledge

[@rjsledz]

Excellent 👌

[@AnOpinionatedMan]

36:16 Mr. White makes the case for canonicity of 1 Maccabees. If Jesus did not abide by traditions outside of the Scriptures but in John we see Him going to the Temple for the Feast of Dedication then we must assume Jesus found this tradition, first found in 1 Maccabees, to be valid.

[@thorobreu]

Well done, Jimmy!

[@Believer0003]

Great work Mr. Akin!

[@shannonglasford9175]

How is it the default position when it was never the practice in any point in the history of scripture?? And how can you say it's the only way God speaks? That's observably false.

[@perlaadams1]

Love it! Jimmy at his best 👏🏻

[@Musashination]

The level of dishonesty that White goes to in trying to defend the indefensible is absurd. He just doesn't want to agree because he knows he has no basis to refute. Jimmy substantiated his position with the Bible and church history. White disagrees on the basis of ideological preference rather than honesty of facts.

[@MrDoyle07]

When Jesus spoke of “scripture” He referenced the Mosaic law. There was no Christian scripture yet and He, Jesus, never left us one single written word. It was left to tradition and teaching to spread the Word, Jesus, to the nations. The Book of New Testament Scripture was a generation of His Church built through tradition He set in motion.

[@Datroflshopper]

Will you do a follow-up on James's reaction after the debate?

[@JimmyAkin]

Maybe! I haven't watched his reaction yet. I sometimes do *one* debate debrief, but I won't talk about it for weeks on my podcast.

[@cycribbs]

I want a debate, against Roman Catholic doctrine and the history of the Roman Church

[@cyndephillipshohbein8232]

Mr White is either speaking too loud, or needs to adjust/move his mic.

[@patarelquiroz]

James white has the same arguments from 20 years ago

[@alexgeorge7473]

White: Do you have any support for the modern Marian dogmas supported in the first 5 centuries? Akin: Absolutely I do. It’s in my book The Fathers Know Best for sale in the back! 😂 Gotta love the plug! 🔌

[@jtmartin1170]

It’s a bit ironic that James complained about Jimmy using a presentation with words and Scripture while James forced his audience to rely on the words from his mouth.

[@CoranceLChandler]

I'm on James' side of this debate but I have to admit, Jimmy's cowboy hat is straight up fire 😎👍🏾

[@richarnold6994]

Good debate. I’m sorry but I can’t find anyway to search the comments to know if this was asked. In the sola scriptura debate why is this never brought up against it? Catholic Study Bible 15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:15 RSV If sola scriptura was valid, wouldn’t it be the pillar and bulwark of truth?

[@waznyf]

Got to hand it to Jimmy on this one, but I always appreciate James White. Mr. White really does ask some questions that can be difficult to answer at times. Yet, Akin always finds a balanced response. I used to look for knockout arguments but I’ve found most of these topics require a bit more nuance. Protestant and even Orthodox debates with Catholics can sometimes sound quite convincing but they just as Catholics, believe things that they require nuance to explain as well. Thus, I’ll stick with the Tradition that simply has the historical pedigree because that can’t be disputed.

[@patricpeters7911]

As a gay Catholic who takes my spirituality and theology seriously, I found White’s focus on homosexuality to be quite silly and amateurish. Makes me find his views even less relevant to a serious engagement with the Christian faith.

[@Pietrosavr]

Why do you identify yourself as a Gay Catholic? Why not a Catholic with gay tendencies?

[@Democracyofthedead]

1:26:10 James simply does not address the question, which was, “who has the authority to interpret Scripture and what do you do when different interpretations are attributed to the illumination of the Holy Spirit?” He tries to say that this isnt’t an issue since folks who take Sola Scriptura seriously are largely agreed on the gospel. In other words, if you agree with James White’s understanding of “practicing” Sola Scriptura, you’re united. Well, duh, but who defines what truly practicing Sola Scriptura means? I know a lot of Sola Scriptura Protestants who believe water baptism is part of the Gospel. Is that “practicing” Sola Scriptura? One can hardly dismiss this as a “minor” issue. Basically, James has no answer, other than to say, “well Rome, this, or Rome that.” Simply put, and this gets to the heart of the original question, does water baptism save? Which Sola Scriptura Christian’s get to decide that one, and how?

[@IsidoreUzor]

Thanks Dr Jimmy Akin. You are a treasure to the Catholic Church

[@9box906]

Keeping notes here: James White referencing debates from before I was born count: 10 times! I knew he was a little stuck in the past, but this is absurd! White opening: Entirely spent on making a negative case *against* the Catholic church instead of making a positive case *for* sola scriptura. It seems kind of gish-gallop-y, and I have a hunch that he's going to whine later on about how none of his "points" were addressed (because they had nothing to do with the discussion at hand). Akin opening: This feels like it should have been the opening. Akin's opening makes a negative case against sola scriptura by making a positive case for a competing paradigm. White's opening attempted to dismiss this before it was even said, but such a case cannot be simply dismissed like that. With this opening, Akin denies White's attempt to default-ize sola scriptura by using scripture. I do not think White will take this kindly, but I will have to see. The bit at the end utilizing White's weak definition of sola scriptura against him is a point that I predict White will backtrack on - he's probably going to quibble about "teaching" specifically. Also - Akin going over on time! Naughty naughty! White first rebuttal: As far as I'm aware, the Bible does not say that the *only* teaching taught orally by the Apostles was the Gospel. This equivocation point is invalid. Then he tries to poison the well by saying "look at how evil my opponent is! dont listen to him!"; this is a bad look. Now he's requiring Akin to make a positive case for Catholicism instead of a negative case against Sola Scriptura - Mr. White, this is not the debate topic! The point about the Pharisees thinking their traditions were 'apostolic' is fair, but Catholics do not think that traditions are above scripture as the Pharisees did so it's a false comparison. Catholic Tradition does not contradict scripture, as the traditions of the Pharisees did. James White says Sola Ecclesia v3258249856e34; false dichotomy fallacy that attempts to show the only two options as either his or a strawman. More poisoning the well. The slight dig at Akin going over his time was probably meant to put Akin off, but from what I've seen of him, it likely will not. Akin first rebuttal: White's gish gallop is called out, thank God. The clearing up of whether or not Sola Scriptura is a doctrine per se is important, but I certainly know protestants who would call it a practice rather than a doctrine - not sure on this one. The idea that Christians should believe anything that is true, regardless of whether or not it is enscripturated is certainly true, and often is not stated enough. Acquiescing the the requirement of making a positive case against Sola Scriptura rather than a negative one, even though it's not required, is classy. Nice. White second rebuttal: Whining about the accusation of gish gallop even though his points were unrelated to the debate is not a good opener. Prediction in my analysis of White's opening comes true here. The slide point would be valid - it basically seems like an extended Akin opening - if White had actually added anything of substance to dispute. White then equivocates Tradition with the Gospel (a novel definition), and then accuses Akin of equivocation when Akin is using the original definition! Smooth, but dishonest. Again, White is getting hung up on making a negative case against Tradition rather than making a positive case for Sola Scriptura. If White would actually make some points in his arguments, there might be something to talk about. Akin *second* rebuttal: Akin covering the irritation equivocation of Tradition and the Gospel is nice. I'm pretty sure Thessalonica is pronounced with a hard i, not a soft i. Negative evidence of Tradition being more than just Gospel is handy for the listener, but not useful in this debate. I'm noticing that the things that White covered in his second rebuttal are addressed on these slides - is Akin really fast at making slides, or is White just that predictable? This second rebuttal was short, but to the point. White cross-exam: White really seems to care a lot about proving the Catholic structure wrong instead of proving himself right. I kind of appreciate that Akin is humoring him and is basically treating this cross-exam like an episode of Catholic Answers; White is doing an awful job of making a positive case. Akin cross-exam: White seems very nervous to define when exactly Sola Scriptura came into effect. "That's a nonsequiter and it's my question time actually" hilarious. White trying to defend that he can assume his position to find his position is... interesting to say the least. He says "I'm not assuming anything; it's explicit" and then referring to not that is funny. White listening to a point that Akin makes and then going "nuh uh" is also kind of funny. White repeatedly saying "no you have to use my novel equivocated definition of tradition instead of the correct one" is funny, but irritating. At the end, White goes "no that's a false dichotomy" and then continues on to talk about something unrelated. This seems to be a recurrent thing that White does - does he struggle to understand subject matter, or does he just have other things on his mind that he is more worried about addressing? It's either those two options, or dishonesty, but I don't want to assume dishonesty where other options are present. Q&A: The artifact/object distinction on the question of Scripture from Tradition is odd to me - what's the point of this distinction? Saying that there is massive consistency between those who take Sola Scriptura seriously is laughable on it's face - just look at the many points of difference between Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli, for a very limited study. White continues to assume his position as default, although saying that is practically beating a dead horse at this point. White's argument that every Protestant that disagrees with his exact position is just not following Sola Scriptura hard enough is pretty funny, but also extremely arrogant (although this is not necessarily out of character for White!). White using 2 Thessalonians to support Scripture and Gospel being equivocal words is absurd on it's face. White closing: Yes, Mr. White, we have heard assertions - specifically, by you! White has asserted multiple things without proof, chief among them his definition of Scripture that equates it to Gospel. He badly wants the takeaway to be the reverse of that, but it simply is not. White asks for inspiration outside of Scripture, when (as per Akin's second slide) that is not the resolving factor in the discussion. Furthermore, it's simply rhetorical, as Scripture is defined as anything that is inspired by God to be written. White returns to his irritating gish-gallop at the end, of course, but that is to be expected (as I predicted from the start). White uses several false arguments, subsequently, which would require far more writing than I care to do here to prove, but fortunately these are just my notes so I don't have to prove that to anybody but myself (which I already have). White yet again asserts that Akin has not defeated his argument in one specific way, while Akin has defeated it in other, equally effective ways (perhaps Sola Other Example rather than the trifold structure of Other Example, Self Inconsistency, and Logic). Akin closing: The point about White adding extra criteria at the end is accurate, and irritating. Why can White not remain on the debate topic? He chose it, after all! Final thoughts: From looking at comments on Twitter and on various videos on this debate, I thought Akin might have had a poor performance and potentially even lost it. I now see that those comments were wildly incorrect, and that Akin was the clear winner. White did not stay on topic, did not defend his case, and resorted to sneaky fallacies to make points. Akin kept a clear presentation, resoundingly deconstructed his opponent's position, and used strong logic throughout.

[@VincentVu846]

Nah don’t worry the comments and Twitter reception are just Protestant coping and seething 😅

[@Skarlet-ju8sr]

1:23 White basically says the apocryphal books are bad in the Septuagint due to lack of understanding of the Hebrew context behind it because there were Jews who were against it as well as Jews who were for it. Jesus quoted from the Septuagint. Good enough for me.

[@jesuschristsaves9067]

And it was in the canon of the early church.

[@pggangmei7624]

Only Apostolic Traditions can help truly understand the doctrines, like the Eucharistic real presence etc

[@danieladams7764]

this is the silliest argument, as if the bible fell out of the sky. Sola Scripture is as always indefensible.

[@kellyblakeborough3371]

I converted to the Catholic church and was confirmed on 3rd January . I had no intention becoming catholic but scripture led me into the catholic church . In the end it was between the orthodox or catholic teachings

[@bman5257]

Jimmy embodies knowledge, temperance, gentleness, and clarity all at once.

[@drummersagainstitk]

Yes he does but NO historically accuracy. Watch how Dr. Martin with the same things that embodies Jimmy does to another great Catholic Fr. Pacwa on why SOLA SCRIPTURA is the sole authority of our faith. kzbin.info/www/bejne/jYS0YqZ-e8ytgdE

[@dand4485]

Great but sadly missing truth and objectivity. Thought it was interesting in the debate Mr. Akin starts off saying we should "split hairs" by debating the meaning of words.... But immediately does that. The Bible is as many would asset an integrated message system, i.e. use the Bible to interpret the Bible. One example that troubles me hearing Mr. Akin is talking about "anathema"... The Greek word for it is only used once in the N.T. and really does mean one is doomed to hell without any hope of escaping, possibly a bit extreme? Sure but lets dig into scripture and the meaning. The one place where it is used is Gal 1:6-9 saying effectively if anything/anyone preaches a gospel contrary to what we have preached, Paul did preach Christ and Him crucified. And the Bible would assert that Christ is the only way, no one will ever get to the Father except through Christ... My point anathema from a Biblical definition would imply anyone anathematized will be going to hell and absolutely has no hope of escaping it... But now Mr. Akin assert the anathema doesn't mean what the Bible does assert about anathema. Even worse, the one disappointing thing it seem is according to the "official Roman Catholic Cannon" i'm anathema-ed because i accept solely on the basis of faith alone, apart from works....

[@wordforever117]

@@dand4485 Akin is talking about the usage of the word anathema during the Council of Trent, right? As in If X says Y, let him be anathema. Trent means the person excommunicates themselves from the Church by not adhering to that particular canon. Being ex-communicated is a very serious thing if you believe in the importance of communion. Catholics would perceive that to mean you cannot enter Heaven. Protestants clearly would not...seeing as they have anathematised themselves voluntarily.

[@pcola4594]

@@dand4485 Weird how you hold a position that is verbatim rejected by Sacred scripture, considering your baseline is to reject sacred scripture I.e. You are not saved by faith alone. Anything else you want to point to is the Bible seems trivial.

[@johnhartnett3629]

@bman5257, don't be fooled by knowledge, temperance, gentleness and clarity all at once. But pay close attention to what the Biblical text says. Just these two verses below lets us know that the Bible alone is sufficient for the Christian. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 "16 All Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man or woman of God may be fully capable, equipped for every good work." There's no need to debate Sola Scriptura. It's a fact given to us in these two verses that clearly define the sufficiency of Scripture alone. There's no need for a man-made "Magisterium".

[@scsteeldrums]

"I could go for another 30 seconds because HE did. III wont." Then spends 5 minutes interuppting Jimmy during his time. This dude argues like kindergartener.

[@fruitsnacks155]

i must have missed that part, do you have a timestamp when white interrupted Akin?

[@Aaron-om6fm]

@@fruitsnacks155He interrupts multiple times during the Jimmy Akin Cross-Examination segment. It’s right there, pal.

[@gabeavakianorona2551]

I'm a protestant, and I have been thinking deeply about these issues. I have been nudged towards Catholic Church lately, as I have been reading Jimmy Akin's books. He is such a thoughtful, intelligent person who shows good epistemic hygiene and seems like a very kind soul. I would love to have a convo with him.

[@IvarsKublins]

He gives BS while smiling and talking kindly. It seems as kind, but actually is feels like what snake was doing in garden.

[@logicalthinker7565]

@@IvarsKublinscome to the true Church.

[@IvarsKublins]

@@logicalthinker7565 i prefer true Jesus

[@Sola_Scriptura_1.618]

​@@IvarsKublinsthere is one true church and Jesus Christ is the head of the church, not the pope who condones the blessing of same sex couples. To be sinful is human, to promote and celebrate sin is evil!

[@JO-ji4bb]

@@IvarsKublins Please elaborate as to what parts of Jimmy's words are "BS" and snake-like

[@Lay_Theologian]

Every James White opening statement: "I have an incredibly short amount of time to cover an enormously complicated topic" *Spends the first three minutes telling a vaguely related story about a debate he did in the 90s* "Well I have so much more to say but that's my time"

[@MrMarcodarko]

pretty much

[@tiger-rgn]

lol

[@keithwilson9172]

Strawman. Also akin does the same and refers to his books for more information.

[@dand4485]

@@keithwilson9172 Thought it was interesting Mr. Akin starts off one of the sections of the debate not to debate and argue over the meaning of words... Then proceed to re-define (incorrectly) the meaning of anathema... I might be a little confused, i watched both nights and kind of a blur for me now, was a good debate, but i think this is the first evening and see this video was posted 14 hours, should be like 38 if it was when the debate actually occurred. But watch the 2nd debate, if memory is correct about 21 minutes in the second debate this is where Mr. Akin sure seems to make contradictory comments.

[@keithwilson9172]

@@dand4485 interesting. You aren’t wrong about his definition of anathema, all one has to do is look it up to see it means to be cut off, cursed, or damned.

[@brianearts2165]

Excellent debate! James White is great. I owe him a lot! He played a pivotal role in my conversion to Catholicism! 🙂 Oh, you played a pivital role, as well, Jimmy! Keep up the great work. 🙂

[@EliasRendonJr]

You got me on the first half brother 🤣 God bless - fellow Catholic 🤍🕊️✝️

[@brianearts2165]

@@EliasRendonJr you were all ready to thumb down me, lol 😆. It's good you read my whole comment. God bless Brother!

[@lo5182]

LOL Welcome Home Brother!

[@jfgskaintayo8167]

😂🎉welcome home

[@andrewjohn2124]

James White is correct. Many of the whacko doctrines from Rome: Papal infallibility 2) Purgatory 3) Aricular confession 4) Marian dogmas etc. These dogmas never existed and are late dogmas not taught by the Apostles

[@scwkmajor]

White is flustered. Mr. Akin is well above White -and Akin has such a gentle spirit. Mic drop- Thank you Mr. Akin…

[@Numenorean921]

Well Akin is defending the truth, White has to defend protestant smoke and mirrors gong show theology. It's always easy to defend the truth because it speaks for itself.

[@jumpingjack7674]

Yes, you can Akin tell is a Democrat.

[@Hoffnung7558]

Incredible what you conclude when you enter the debate through an extreme bias. Notice you can’t mention a single point that was superior.

[@lebell79]

Here's a thing I always think of when I hear protestants: if Jesus believed in sola scriptura then WHY DIDN'T HE WRITE IT HIMSELF. He had the time, He was more than able, but He did not. Jesus also did not teach in a way that made the NT read like a manual or rulebook.

[@dottorb7054]

Jesus did find tine to repeatedly call out hypocrites, the self-righteous rule-followers. James reminds me of those guys who would rather crucify Christ than admit being wrong.

[@rnw53324]

It is the Sola Scriptura that created and creating a lot of false churches sprouting like mushrooms, but we needed this kind of debate to exposed the truth. Well done to Mr J Akin for charitably defending the One and Only Christ Church.

[@JeffreySchieding]

You don't know what you're talking about. The only false church here is the Beast of Rome.

[@tomthumb3762]

It is the lack of rightly discerning Scripture that creates False and Blasphemous 'churches' the biggest one being the catholics.

[@logicalthinker7565]

@@JeffreySchiedingthere are churches that promote homosexuality, transsexualism, abortion, socialism, all because everyone is interpreting scripture on their own without regard for an actual authority.

[@PabloMartinez-zv4gp]

Hi Jimmy! I just have to say that you are an absolutely amazing gift to our beautiful Catholic Church. May God continue to bless, guide, protect, and strengthen you always! Much love & respect!! ❤🙏🏼❤🙏🏼❤

[@DD-bx8rb]

Thanks Jimmy Akin for your service to the holy Church! A learned and humble man. We are proud of you. From Australia.

[@drewschinderwolf2683]

Jimmy Akin you are such a joy to listen to. Every time you speak you exude such joy and charity - and as a former Protestant and newly minted Catholic (woohoo!) I gotta say you're embodiment of Christian values in your demeanor is so encouraging to me. Its so easy to get frustrated or upset when your beliefs are so often straw-manned or misconstrued in a negative way, but your lightheartedness is so infectious and reassuring that it has supported me in my efforts to dialogue with our Protestant brothers and sisters. Thank you for living out your faith so joyfully! Also, killer suit 🤘

[@hyperclearphoto6573]

When is white going to come up with a better argument? The ontological argument is over used, and it has been proven wrong time and time again, but James White manages to use that as his only argument.

[@baidamoji1150]

Mr.White's arrogance is overwhelming..😢

[@UltraAar]

But what about the arguments he made?

[@gemmiefy]

@@UltraAarit was very poor. when he said Jesus talks about the scriptures it was the OLD testament scriptures not NT.

[@coloradodutch7480]

How is that pooor? It is instructive that he references scripture well over 50 times and not once references tradition within a culture dominated by religious tradition. The contrast is staggering and very analogous to the RCC vs scripture today.

[@logofreetv]

@@coloradodutch7480 Excellent point and one the RCC don't properly consider. For the gemmiefy3/RCC argument to be true you have to submit God changes how He operates in a fundamental way when Jesus arrives in terms of revelation to mankind, especially strange considering John belaboured the point of Jesus being THE WORD. ALL scripture, OT or NT, was being written at some point, but afterwards it became binding.

[@spdinsbeer1]

Not at all. Akin wasn't tracking with White's line of questioning in his cross-examination unfortunately was quite inappropriately sarcastic at times as when he referenced his book was for sale that White could purchase. That was low. Clearly missed the point of White's question.

[@ReiRei12]

Notice how Mr. White is accusatory and semi snarky while Mr. Akin is just calm cool and collective. Behavior like that really helps to show who's right, or at least show who's more sure of themself.

[@Pizza-ek9ky]

Except Dr. White is RIGHT! 👍🏻

[@ReiRei12]

@@Pizza-ek9ky not at all. Jimmy's arguments are just more sound.

[@wordforever117]

@@Pizza-ek9ky Well he is not right about *everything* he said, because some things were just factually incorrect

[@fantasia55]

​@@Pizza-ek9kyWhite resorts to snark because the facts are against him.

[@tricord2939]

I see you are joking.

[@mosestorres6553]

My dad taught me that when one starts verbally attacking the other, it’s because his argument has been dismantled by the other guy. Congratulations Jimmy Akin!

[@Sola_Scriptura_1.618]

If you see White as attacking Catholics, I suggest your issue is not with White but with God's word!

[@mosestorres6553]

@@Sola_Scriptura_1.618 wrong. It’s foolish that every person can interpret the Bible however they want. The Catholic Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. Whoever listens to her listens to Jesus. White rejects Jesus ‘s word and is against the word of God.

[@Sola_Scriptura_1.618]

@mosestorres6553 God sent the apostles to spread the word across every corner of the world. God's word has been written in plain language and translated for everyone to read, understand, and spread. I suggest you read the word of God for yourself so you can see the fallacy of some of the RC church's teachings. To have faith is a blessing; to have blind faith in man's word is the devil's delight!

[@Sola_Scriptura_1.618]

@mosestorres6553 are you illiterate? Do you lack basic comprehension skills? Do you suffer from mental deficiencies? Your response would indicate you are not, but just checking? Do you own a Bible? I will be happy to buy one for you so you can see how easy it is to read and understand. Let me know and I will be happy to send you one. Matthew 4:4, Jesus says, "It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God’"3. John 1:1 states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

[@mosestorres6553]

@@Sola_Scriptura_1.618 I suppose that if you lived in the time of the apostles and they came up to you and asked you to join the body of Christ which is the Church that had already been established by Christ you would probably say something like “ no thanks I’m sorry but I’m gonna wait until the bible comes out” what a foolish thing to believe that the Church established by Christ has no authority to interpret the scriptures. You can cut down the Catholic Church all you want but know that you’re going against Jesus. You sir will Not prevail.

[@matthewbroderick6287]

Jimmy Akin is absolutely brilliant! What a gift from God to His Church! James White HAS to admit that he can NEVER KNOW with infallible certitude, who the rock is in Matthew 16, or who the Woman is in Revelation 12, or what Jesus Christ meant by "this IS MY BODY ", as Scripture ALONE is infallible, thus making all his interpretations, FALLIBLE! James White will never admit that his interpretations are Fallible though Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink!

[@pmlm1571]

I read this post twice. I've never seen it put just that way, that if only Scripture is infallible, then Mr. White's interpretations are all fallible: he can never be certain who the Rock of Matt 16 is, who the Woman of Rev., nor what Christ meant by "This is My Body." Catholics can be certain because in addition to inerrant Scripture which doesn't interpret itself, we have Sacred Tradition plus a divinely empowered teaching authority. yay!

[@matthewbroderick6287]

@@pmlm1571yes, James White can never know who the rock is in Matthew 16 or anywhere else, for Scripture ALONE is infallible, thus making all the interpretations of James White, fallible! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink!

[@Netomp51]

The nervousness of James White during the cross examination reflects clearly how bad he was responding, Jimmy is a Beast

[@fruitsnacks155]

I need a timestamp to see where White was nervous. I didn’t see any part where he was.

[@cizzorzsonandy9773]

Lol