Three phases from only one

[@jetg2111]

Very interesting, am looking forward to seeing what you've got planned!

[@matthewday7565]

Serious power hum there, all it needs is a Jacob's ladder fizzing away for the full mad scientist sound

[@danielbrydon3869]

Very similar to old units that I used to see in an avionics workshop, three phase motor attached to a generator to convert to various different aircraft voltages, such as the 120v 400hz three phase

[@benhurley280]

Love your work JW. Can you break down how control panels work and give tips on how to fault on them. Cheers

[@rarbiart]

turning on such a hefty motor not bolted down: good to keep the camera rolling for potential failure modes...

[@moonasha]

that motor probably weighs 60-80lbs, it's not going anywhere. Big solid chunks of cast steel

[@2loco]

Thats no hefty motor chap. Thats a tiny baby for a 3 phase motor. The rotational force wouldn't be enough for it to roll around due to its weight.

[@mikeZL3XD7029]

Thanks JW, I love stuff like this, normally it'd be thrown on a scrap-heap.

[@Kevin-gx8lc]

Hi John... by the way, the guy over at 'Galvanised Sankey' has built a rotary converter and he's produced 3 detailed videos on how it works etc., (a little bit over my head) but check him out for some ideas. Love your content. Cheers, Greetings from Southport.

[@alanpartridge2140]

Thanks.

[@matthewbeddow3278]

Thanks John , really interesting . Some very shonky wiring from the original controller, I've seen similar wiring in use . I used to go to auctions for Industrial coating equipment when companies had gone bust and some of the things were in such a state that its a wonder no one was killed.

[@bostedtap8399]

Looking forward to smoke, or not 😨. Thanks for sharing.

[@ballygarran]

0:43 I used to work in a workshop with a very similar setup. And it wasn’t a test rig. They actually operated like that.

[@englishbob5106]

Did this 30 yrs ago with a car lift

[@moonasha]

jesus. Everything is solid state now so it's interesting to see how they used to do it. Nowadays you'd just put one phase into a VFD the size of a small brick and call it a day

[@ohnoitisnt]

Agreed. Very cool bits of old tech

[@bdf2718]

That rotary converter is solid state. No liquid, gases or vacuums involved. All solid.

[@literoadie3502]

moonasha VFDs are designed for 3 phase motor control, not as phase converters. Supplying a VFD with single phase is possible, but you have to massively de-rate the VFD for the motor you are intending to run with it, and it isn’t good for the VFD nor is it efficient. Basically there is nothing like real 3 phase.

[@sumilidero]

@@literoadie3502 single phase input VFDs are only small ones up to 2,2-3kW

[@southerncharity7928]

@@literoadie3502 what is a VFD?

[@motorone5301]

Kopex flexible conduit - that brings back memories!

[@paulmorrey733]

Thanks John

[@steveide2448]

Thanks John great video

[@Kevin-gx8lc]

Hi John, I'm looking forward to what will hopefully be a complete rebuild of your new (old) phase converter. I'm hoping to build one for my workshop and will watch what you do with great interest. I'm not an electrician and frankly, electricity frightens the hell out of me, so I hope to pick up on what you're doing and why. Greetings from Southport.

[@mikeZL3XD7029]

It's unusual seeing a "motor" with no shaft on it.

[@Mike_5]

Nice one JW but is this designed to scare the plants in the background into growing bigger more quickly ?

[@Stop..carry-on]

Do i see another 3phase converter the left transwave ?

[@jwflame]

No, just an empty box.

[@tent7014]

What's the IP rating of all this gear JW ????

[@2loco]

Ip 00

[@raychambers3646]

@@2loco surely not that good!

[@mikeZL3XD7029]

By the looks of it, about IP22

[@toysareforboys1]

The motor failed in my old mini lathe (1986, 1/2hp, 120v, 60hz, single phase, 1720rpm) so I'm upgrading it with a stepper motor (not the best choice, I know). I ordered a driver and motor from China that says it can take 120v60hz and spit out three phase (I assume still only 120v) for driving the stepper motor. I only have single phase 120v (20 amps) available at the lathe location but have 200 amp split phase/single phase 240v I could run if needed. Thanks for the video!

[@puckcat22679]

It'll be 120v between each phase and neutral, or 208v between phases. Out of curiosity, why aren't you just replacing the motor with another single phase induction motor? They're cheap, readily available, and wouldn't require modification. Converting single phase to 3 phase is quite inefficient. With a 20A circuit available, you could easily run a 1hp or even 1.5hp motor, usually in stock at places like Tractor Supply Co. or Rural King for $100 or so, and if you ran 240 service with a 30A breaker, you could use a 5hp motor. A new continuous duty 5hp 240v 60hz motor from a reputable supplier can be had for $150, and significantly less, if you're willing to take the risk involved in ordering a Chinesium motor from AliExpress or similar.

[@toysareforboys1]

@@puckcat22679 I like how much torque the stepper motors put out at slow speed and their super easy speed and direction control with a $7 controller. I also like that you can lock the speed at a specific RPM so if it starts to slow down it'll put more power into it to try and keep it at the same speed, super nice. I could've got a 1.5hp sewing machine motor with nice speed controller for $100 but I've always had a soft spot for stepper motors and always wanted to use a monster sized one like this in a project, and now I had the opportunity.

[@simonrichard9873]

@@puckcat22679 No, it's 240V between the "phases". It's a split phase 120/240 system that uses a center tap transformer, not a 120/208 Y system.

[@richard-riku]

Once it's working i'd like to see more videos about three phase. I live in Finland and all detached houses and most modern flats have three phase supply. I think this is common in Germany too. In the UK three phase is confined to commercial properties. But here Ovens, Hobs and sauna heaters (everyone has one) use all three phases. The hardest thing to understand is that there is no neutral supply to my house. Only three live cables come in. No earth supply. but no neutral either.

[@sumilidero]

you have to have neutral on the low voltage site and earth; No neutral is often only limited to high and medium voltage distribution, and then comes thru transformer that has star secondary winding, providing neutral.

[@richard-riku]

@@sumilidero There's no neutral coming into my house. The power lines on the poles outside have three cables spiraled together. The three phases. They come into my house and the neutral is derived from an earth connection (going under the house). Earth and neutral are identical in my house. I think if the load on the three phases is equal then there is nothing flowing though this "neutral".

[@sumilidero]

​@@richard-riku I assume then, all 'single' phase devices run actually off 2 phases? like 240V appliance runs on two 120V phases instead of 240 phase and 0V neutral?

[@richard-riku]

@@sumilidero No, each item is connected to one of the phases and the combined earth/neutral. Nothing is across two phases. Some things like the oven get all three live phases plus the combined neutral/earth. Downstairs power sockets are on one phase, upstairs power sockets on another phase, lighting on the third phase for example.

[@sumilidero]

@@richard-riku Yeh but u have that neutral/earth wire. Although it doesn't come directly with other phase wires.

[@robertgaines-tulsa]

I'm not sure what uses there would be for domestic three phase. I'm not even sure if the UK uses domestic two phase. We do have domestic two phase for major appliances here in the United States, but it's just 240v. It might a tad safer with 120v on each leg, but you will get a full 240v wallop when touching both legs. I can certainly see the benefit of 240v since you don't need as much copper for the same job or power.

[@sumilidero]

In the rest of europe we have normal 3ph installations in almost every house. Things like cookers and heaters use it. Also whole house is distributed over 3phases so if 1 phase goes out, you still have 2/3 oof the house lit. Also garage tools run on 3ph; compressors, welders and almost everything that is over 2kW of power

[@jwflame]

The vast majority of domestic UK installations have single phase only, as 0-230V, there just isn't any need for 3 phase as there aren't any domestic appliances that require it. Two phase probably still exists in a few places, usually as 230-0-230, but that is rare and still only provides the usual 230V, you just get two of them for increased capacity. Most commercial and industrial locations have 3 phase as standard, 230 phase-neutral and 400V phase-phase, but even there many loads are still only single phase.

[@sumilidero]

@@jwflame Thats true, but UK domestic supply is 230V and about 70~Amps? Here we have 3ph 230/400V at 25Amps. And in consumer unit, single phase circuits are distributed over 3phases to spread the load more less evenly. Eventually, the power capability is similar. However, having 3ph gives an advantage to run 3ph devices, also less current means less heat in terms of loose connections/bad wires.

[@jwflame]

UK domestic is usually 60A, 80A or 100A.

[@markpenn4831]

Fascinating !!!

[@skfalpink123]

It sounds like someone getting the chair !!

[@stephengreen909]

Hi John. I know I'm going off topic but can you do a video on grouping factors and voltage drop calculations . Would be much appreciated..

[@muzikman2008]

JW has already done a video on Volt Drop ...

[@ohnoitisnt]

You dont quite strike me as the type to have an old lathe or mill tucked away... Big new pillar drill? Or a buy fix sell :-)

[@bdf2718]

The pillar drill was a fixer. There's a video or two about it.

[@albertkleyn111]

John... Thanks, great to see....... I wonder what those units would cost new, if they still can be had. We would love to get a commercial washing machine here at the sanctuary but to get three phase electricity here would cost well over 10K euro, if not significantly more.. We have our own 11KVA down to 240 x'former but single phase of course. ( Am in Ireland). Very much appreciate your feedback.

[@jwflame]

They are still made, although not by many, Transwave are one manufacturer. Prices from approx £700 upwards for a small one, something of the size in the video would be £1500+. Static type can also be had, they can be cheaper but have to be properly sized for a particular load, plus they have a minimum load requirement. The rotary types can work over a range of loads and don't have a minimum load, but cost more and are noisy due to the rotating motor. Note that you can't get something for nothing - although these output 3 phase, the input current will be significant for even a moderate load, and they are far from 100% efficient.

[@mortenwinslw2785]

Many professional washing machines is using 1 phase for motor and electronics. The last two phases is for heating. You could get it to work by supplying it with 3x the same phase it don't need 400v between the phases.

[@SeanBZA]

@@jwflame It basically is a 3 phase motor though, so just getting a used motor of appropriate size with windings that can be connected for 240VAC operation will work, just need to add the appropriate control gear to it.Basically wired for star operation, and then capacitor start using the one phase, and then, once running, the capacitor banks are used to phase shift those other phases to a semblance of balanced 3 phase. Yes efficiency is well down the line of things it is good for, as you basically have to supply 3 times the current plus all the circulating current losses in the windings.

[@albertkleyn111]

Folks. THANK YOU ALL SO VERY Much for your replies. Just wanted to let you know it is very much appreciated. Certainly provides food for thought. Albert.

[@albertkleyn111]

@@mortenwinslw2785 thanks Morton That is worth looking into. Albert.

[@KevinCoop1]

If you have a 240 volt three phase motor at 20 Hp, you can hook to/through 240 volts to phase A-B. Come off of C to run up to 22 Hp of 3 phase motors. If you put a rope pull on the shaft, pull the rope, then turn on the single phase 240 volts, You are good to go. No electronics necessary. No capacitor to start if you have the rope.

[@literoadie3502]

The way I understand it that will be horribly inefficient and the phases will be way out of balance.

[@KevinCoop1]

Lite Roadie How do you expect the phases to be out of balance? With a roto-phase, the only loads you should connect to it would be three phase motors. So only three phase loads. What is your concern about efficiency? Are you concerned about power factor and amps lagging?

[@sumilidero]

@@KevinCoop1 are you joking or is it serious? that kind of conversion is absolutely crap, noone uses it beside hobbyist who like to do experiments. You'd rather put motor and synchronous generator on the same shaft and therefore create 3ph balanced power, thus still inefficient. (requires a lot of power to run, delivers little power to the output)

[@KevinCoop1]

sumilidero Not sure where you are from. No I'm not joking! Two brands sold in US are Roto-phase and Add a Phase. They must sell enough of them to keep the doors open. They are used a lot on farms and small businesses in rural areas. Not sure where your balanced load concern comes from. Single phase in at 240 volts(no issue) 3 phase out (with differing voltages) stable enough to run 3 phase motors. Efficiency question, I'm assuming you are concerned about power factor. Agreed, power factor would be not good! If I am the utility, I would be concerned. As the customer, I'm happy! Low power factor on single phase relates to lower electrical bill. The meters only read watts, not VA. Respectfully, Kevin

[@sumilidero]

@@KevinCoop1 No, i mean efficiency = Pin/Pout. Power factor is other story, low PF means you can't draw much useful power that creates work at given line capability. I guess that must be american thing then. In europe, whenever you need 3ph power, you just get it supplied by utility. Its 3ph by default, but small house owners time to time choose single phase to make things cheaper. I know that US use 2ph domestic system, but industrial is 3ph i assume 460/480V? I guess you have an option to connect farm to 3ph grid? (but its expensive?)

[@mernok2001]

Is that twin and earth or twin and skin cable a lead covered one?

[@jwflame]

Twin and earth, with a layer of dirt on it.

[@emmetg888]

Hey JW can you explain what is going on here in detail and how it's done. Many thanks

[@jwflame]

Yes - there will be more videos on this.

[@tillybud2003]

Lol Loving the mad scientist bit Is it just for fun? Or have you got a point?

[@jwflame]

It's for a whole series of videos on 3 phase.

[@rysacroft]

Can somebody please explain to me why second hand car lifts are all 3 phase? I cannot understand why a such geared down hoist would need so much power. I'm pretty sure that with enough gearing you could lift a car with a 12V DC motor. It might take an hour to lift your car but it would get there in the end! A neighbour of mine converted his 3 phase car lift with a (Chinese) single phase powered* hydraulic pump. *plugged into a normal UK 13amp socket Edit: Where I live it costs a lot of money to get a 3 phase supply into your premises.

[@adamspencer4983]

I don't know what the safety requirements are but you should be able to just use a single phase to three phase inverter -which could be found relatively cheaply on Ebay, I would expect that power requirements might demand at least 16 amp supply.

[@andreim841]

So basically what you have there is the grandfather of the vfd

[@literoadie3502]

I don’t think so. VFDs are not phase converters. They are designed for 3 phase motor control. Just because some supply them with single phase and use them as phase converters doesn’t mean they are intended for that use, nor do they perform well.

[@sumilidero]

rather ugly side cousin

[@wezzabryant7284]

Looks like a #photonicinduction job to me !

[@robertgaines-tulsa]

I have no idea what eventually happened to him. He should have just left Britain to be with his wife in India.

[@aqib2000]

What did you pay

[@XtremeKremaTor]

Still, limited by the current, 20A?

[@sumilidero]

yes

[@jwflame]

No 20A was mentioned, but the output is limited by the input, which was a 16A connector for this quick demonstration. There are also losses, so the output power is always less than the input. Actual maximum power is unknown, as the motor rating plate is missing.

[@ohnoitisnt]

I thought the capacitors were just for motor starting and voltage imbalance is normal - inherent to this type of design converter. Never had one of these apart, but every one of these ive seen used has an imbalance to some degree. You can hear it in the motor when they are really out of whack.

[@jwflame]

This has 2 sets of capacitors, some for starting which are connected only briefly, and others which are permanently connected.

[@ohnoitisnt]

@@jwflame Gotcha. Thanks

[@samuelfellows6923]

A motor without a shaft 😁

[@Bin216]

Samuel Fellows there is a shaft, it has just got a cover over it (the right end of the motor as pictured).

[@samuelfellows6923]

Bryn Jones - in that case a non - conventional protruding shaft at the back - all conventional motors have an output shaft of its electromagnetic rotary movement to a; wheel, cog, pulley, /(in case of a fan) impeller, the only external shaft that converter has is for its cooling fan at the front under the cowling

[@dglcomputers1498]

Listen very carefully zis gives you three phases from only one!

[@simongrace2538]

Check out danebury electric for better phase converters. I helped design the early ones.

[@toddbod94]

What’s the purpose of this?

[@jwflame]

it provides a 3 phase supply where only a single phase supply is available.

[@e5Group]

🙌👍👍👍👏👏👏

[@ajnin1974]

1.21 Gigawatts

[@benbaselet2026]

*Jigowatts

[@fathemasultana1027]

I want diamonds. How many boys can give me diamonds? I am choosing handsome, good and diamond boys.

[@josvandiepen3425]

Your saying nothing about the power off the motor and put some torque on it. You will see that your 3 fase is rubbish.