Joe Abercrombie and the anti-hero's journey: A First Law analysis

I noticed that Joe Abercrombie does something super cool with the classic hero's journey and I needed to talk about it. It's ironic that I was worried I wouldn't like the First Law and now I can't stop talking about it! Do you agree with my analysis or think something different? Let me know below!
Books mentioned:
The Blade Itself by Joe Abercrombie
Before They Are Hanged by Joe Abercrombie
Last Argument of Kings by Joe Abercrombie
Best Served Cold by Joe Abercrombie
Channels mentioned:
‪@LienesLibrary‬
Chapters:
00:00
00:26 - Classic Hero's Journey overview
01:23 - Something's different about First Law
02:05 - Descent instead of ascension
04:52 - Success instead of trial
06:26 - Mentor figure
07:10 - Lack of reward
07:58 - End of the hero's journey
08:15 - The anti-hero's journey
08: 25 - Joe's other novels
10:00
Sources:
en.wikipedia.o...
www.thearetical...
Socials:
Instagram: / bookborn.reviews
Amazon wishlist: www.amazon.com...

[@marrrti28]

Awesome video! I completely agree with your points except for the ending. Imo all of them show a lot of character growth, but the problem is that circumstance doesn't allow them to actually live/express it at the end. Logen for example just can't escape the Bloody-Nine, and Glokta and Jezal are pushed back into their previous roles by Bayaz (I think in Jezal's arc it's the most visible when he actually tries to be a good ruler and stands up against Bayaz until reality hits and he's forcefully put back into place), and all of this makes it even more depressing because you see the characters trying to show/express that internal growth, but they just can't compete against their environment.

[@Bookborn]

Now that you say that, I think I could agree with that assertion expect for maybe Logan. I think Logan really made a mistake accepting himself as king of the northman. I think that was a bad decision that led to some of his problems in the end. But, I agree that Glokta and Jezal are pushed back by Bayaz, and so maybe that stuff WAS out of their control; I'll be interested to see when we see these characters in future books if they revert or keep trying to change.

[@DonEskil]

Say one thing for Bookborn, say she’s great at making interesting videos

[@vaughnroycroft999]

In my opinion, two of the greatest chapter titles in epic fantasy are: "The End," for the prologue of The Blade Itself, and "The Beginning," for the epilogue of Last Argument of Kings. And, if you ask me, they're not only tipoffs, they help to confirm your theory. I don't really think I've read any other grimdark that is this intentional about this. A lot of the time, it seems like grimdark is just pulling the rug out on us just to make the point that life is really meaningless, or that classic virtues are ephemeral/pointless, etc. Really observant. I've never really fully appreciated his work like this. Thanks.

[@Bookborn]

How did I NOT NOTICE THOSE CHAPTER TITLES??? (Probably because I skip chapter titles all the time 😅) Ok, that's amazing and I feel like really hits home my point that Abercrombie knew *exactly* what he was doing.

[@benmason9755]

I definitely agree with this intriguing idea of the main protagonists getting this "antiheroes' journey", but something that I find really interesting is that Abercrombie DOES include one genuine CLASSIC hero's journey in the trilogy, specifically that of the Dogman, who starts out as the callow scout of the motley band of warriors in the North, but through the course of the story is able to discover the true hero within himself and ends up becoming someone FAR more worthy of respect than he was at the start. He even has a classic "mentor" figure in the first two books, in the form of Rudd Threetrees, who really inspires him and, of course, dies late in Before They Are Hanged.

[@samm8190]

This is one of the best analysis videos I’ve seen on booktube.

[@radiantreads5372]

This is so cool!! I never noticed this before, but when you break it all down it totally makes sense! One of the reasons that Before They are Hanged was my favorite book in the series was I felt like the characters were actually making growth and becoming better people, and that definitely fits in with what you were saying. Also please tell me I'm not the only one who was 100% fooled by Bayaz in the beginning and totally mistook him for the wise old wizard when he actually ended up being the main villian 😂

[@larissapopovych6551]

All my friends was 100% fooled by Bayaz, but I usually don't trust people in books if I cant read their point of view. 😂😂 But I did not expect that it could go so far 😂

[@Bookborn]

DUDE I was 100% fooled by Bayaz! I felt SO STUPID. I was like "I like this dude! I always like mentor figures!" And then he's literally the most evil person 🤣 So glad I wasn't the only one.

[@calliope9th217]

Lot of parallels between Bayaz and a satan-type figure. What's so disturbing (and great), is he's not really wrong. Glotka could tell you.... "Life is choosing between bad and worse"

[@luckyleo25]

I love this video! This is awesome and I never noticed before!! I would argue through because since all of these people are pretty awful (Awesome! But awful!!), I think all of these protagonists got what they deserve!! The old saying, "you reap what you sow" is a truism that I find valid in all of Joe Abercrombie's novels. It is not really is that good guys get rewarded and the bad guys get punished in these novels. It is not that simple; it is more like what one would see in the real world. These characters are rewarded for their correct decisions and actions (not necessarily ethically or morally "right" [See San dan Glotka]) and they are punished for their mistakes (again -- not necessary ethically or morally "wrong" decisions or actions [See Collem West or Jezal or Logan for that matter]). And real ugly part is that most of the time (not always), the rewards can be -- well, "monkey paws" in nature ("Be careful what you wish for; you might just get it!" Poor Jezal...). Anyway, this was is a great video. I really love this insight on my favorite modern fantasy series!

[@kendershot]

Interesting analysis. When I read this, I'd thought that he was turning traditional fantasy tropes on their head. Like how a far off journey to a distant land doesn't turn up the all solving MacGuffin, but is instead a total waste of time. Or how the Gandalf/Merlin isn't a benevolent savior for mankind, but instead a selfish figure more akin to the Devil. I'll be keeping these thoughts in mind as I read more.

[@ukiluser]

Gonna watch when I finish Last Argument in a few days!

[@Bookborn]

Oohh you're in for a lot of surprises! I hope you love it!

[@Old_Man_LoganIII]

I love the analysis

[@calliope9th217]

Excellent analysis. One of the underlying themes seems "can one be noble in a corrupt world?" When such is the case, the world has a tendency to swiftly punish any good intentions while rewarding bad ones. Gotta re-affirm that status quo and all. Well meaning idiots like Jezal just disrupt while conflict is a great motivator for all things in the name of progress.

[@Bookborn]

Yeah it's funny because truly that's not really my worldview but boy is it interesting to read about.

[@thecontradictorian2225]

Great analysis! It all makes perfect sense. At least Glokta gets the girl at the end, haha.

[@Bookborn]

I must say I was extremely happy for him LOL

[@Justadude1997]

yeah i think you are totally right, especially with how everyone grows the most in the 2nd, then to just collapse from failure in the end

[@Bookborn]

I know. It made it so depressing. I totally got lured into a false sense. I was like "sure this is grim, but the characters are growing!"

[@larissapopovych6551]

That was really interesting to hear about the anti-hero's journey in First Low trilogy. I was thinking about it as well, but couldn't formulate my thoughts correctly to fully understand how exactly it went for characters. Actually anti-hero's journey is quite popular now, like in Joker or Cruella movies. :) But if I compare Joker or Cruella development for example, it seems that Joe characters developed in a kind of better way, and became better persons. For Jezal for example, he is not so selfish anymore and trying to do some good things. :) Same for Glokta.

[@Bookborn]

I definitely think anti-hero's have been super popular/rising in popularity in the last decade or so. I just don't always think they follow this nice little character arc. Now, I'm certainly NO expert on the anti-hero because I just don't tend to read a lot of that stuff lol, but some of the stuff I've consumed has been more about "They are a bad person but they get things done!" so it was interesting to see Abercrombie's version of anti-heroes which I feel is a little different.

[@nxsardella]

I *LOVE* this video! You articulate so well what makes this series so great. When first reading the First Law trilogy, I had a hard time getting into it, but I kept enjoying it more as it went on and Last Argument of Kings made it all click, and once I could see the full picture and thought about it more I realized how great a job Abercrombie did of subverting so many of the tropes that are typical of fantasy. I love how he makes it seem so realistic too - I never once felt like he was subverting expectations just for the sake of it. Ugh. So good. Your tastes and perspectives definitely continue to be some of the most similar to my own that I’ve found on BookTube, keep it up! Would love to see more Abercrombie videos in the future (especially if you get to the Age of Madness trilogy - I can’t wait for The Wisdom of Crowds to drop next month!)

[@Bookborn]

I totally had the same reading experience! It was good but not like overwhelmingly amazing to me...except that the more I read, the more I understood what Abercrombie was doing and the more I loved it. It's almost like once I finished the trilogy, I understood the series way more and liked it even more then when I first was reading it. I'll get to it but not for a while! I've still got the entire Heroes and other stand alones to get through!

[@nxsardella]

@@Bookborn Well I’m glad to know I’m not the only one! I’m always a bit surprised when I see people who love The Blade Itself right off the bat (and I do think that one is still a bit weaker than the other two in the trilogy and his later books, especially in the prose). And absolutely take your time! Abercrombie’s books deserve to be savored. 🙂

[@readbykyle3082]

Ayyyyy I can finally watch this video! Interesting analysis, and I would agree its intentional. I hadn't thought of it in terms of an intentional anti-hero's journey, and I like that. I think all of the main characters did have character growth though, like most specifically with Jezal, Glokta, and West. Logen did to a degree, but definitely ended the most in the same spot. One thing I'm realizing is a trope I really appreciate is the idea that systems trap individuals into the roles they're in, regardless of how much they want to change, making that change within the system they're trapped in is usually very hard. This is essentially the thesis statement for my favorite show, The Wire, which is basically "individuals can grow and change, but corrupt systems result in cyclical natures where nothing actually changes". And it certainly applies to First Law as well. The system is, essentially, Bayaz and the institutions he's put in place (the bank, the monarchy). All of our characters want to break out of their circumstances and be better people, but they are being manipulated and bamboozled at every turn by Bayaz, who at the end demonstrates that, no matter how much you want to change, he's the master and he gets what he wants. I think that's a big emphasis of why the series feels so grim- because we feel our characters becoming better (look, book 1 Glokta would have murdered Ardee), but the systemic issues force them back into roles that are similar.

[@Bookborn]

You just put that in a way that somehow makes it even more grim lol I like to pretend it's their choices, but you're absolutely right that most of it is the institutions that Bayaz has set up...

[@acxe212]

This Channel is a gem, hope you grow a lot more, your work is amazing

[@Bookborn]

Thanks so much for the support! I really appreciate it

[@patrickernst4255]

I don't think the main characters ended up in the same position as they started - on the surface may be but they are there with completely different outlooks. Take Logan. First off, the symetry of his journy is amazing. I cheered when he went out that window because of how it tied to the opening scene. But what a journey of self-discovery did Logan go on! We knew he was a legend but over the course of the books we discovered why he was a legend. And in the end, we discover (and he awakens to) the fact that he is basically responsible for all the war/strife up in thet North. He was the driving force behind Bethard(?). Such an awesome revalation. Logan came full circle but at his core - he is about survival (maybe that is the Bloody Nine??). His final fight is a sacrifice to end a larger war if possible. It's not about glory or fame. It's about keeping people alive, and that is a far cry from the 'old' Logan. Now about Glockta. Look how much he grew. At first he is alone and constantly welcoming his own death, looking forward to it even. During the take, he discoveres his old friend West didn't abandon him. He develops feelings for Ardy. At the end, he consoles West on how best to cope with his shattered body. he CARES for people now. He is still a cynic. He still takes overs from someone but now it is - run the kindgdom and keep it going. His power has grown immensley. By the end of the story - he isn't wishing for death or so comfortable with the thought. He has something to live for, several things in fact. Jezzale is simply the 'be careful what you wish for' parable. He grew, a little, during the tale but cost of his dreams was that he is now trapped forever. He is still not a good man and I think the message that some people don't grow that much is still a good message. Now, in Best Served Cold, I think your analysis is very fitting for Caul Shivers. That poor bastard only wanted to be a better man - and Abercrombie's books are no place for that.

[@Bookborn]

It's so interesting because we have a TOTALLY different interpretation of Logan's ending! I feel like if he really wanted to avoid a war, he wouldn't have accepted the mantle of King of the North. I was driven crazy by that decision. Wasn't the whole point to free the north from that? So when he runs away at the end, I felt like he didn't WANT to run, he wasn't trying to avoid a war, but again was trying to survive because he'd been outmaneuvered by Black Dow. So that's why it feels they are in the same spot. I don't think either of our interpretations are wrong...just different. I can see your interpretation of Glokta as well, tbh. For me, I felt like what Glokta really wanted, though, was to be free of masters and free from torture. In the end, he's under a harsher master and has now accepted that torturer is who he is. I guess that sort of depressed me and didn't seem like growth, but rather acceptance of where you were. Certainly he know has a ally in Ardee, which I love...but not sure it's enough to change my opinion on it.

[@patrickernst4255]

@@Bookborn This represents the value of BookTube, a meeting of the minds and seeing other perspectives. All views are valid. In a way, that is what makes books 'personal', the way we interpret the story and characters. I kind of think Logan is always waging a war against the Bloody Nine but it never gets talked about. Which is pretty cool. I think Logan is afaid of B9 and by the end of the trilogy, I can see why. I think, at the end, Logan thought to stop Bathard as all costs but the relaity set before him by Black Dow was either more of the same or actually worst. Hence the window. I love how quietly, Abercrombie wrote the best barbarian character ever - even over Conan (although I haven't read Howard in many years). For Glckta, I think he graduated from toururer to CEO. His responsibilty is now enourmous. I think he found his humanity with West. He got back what he missed most - a friend. I think the writing on Glokta was the best - I view it like the show Dexter. You find yourself rooting for a tourturer. (don't get me started about Morveer in BSC). So awesome. Most touching moment was he talking to West at the end. Plus, his crowning moment of past glory with Frost was hands down my favorite scene. By the end of the story, he wasn't fondly predicting his own demise - and I think that alone is growth. One last intersting fact, we disagree on Bayaz. I don't think he was Sauron at the end. More like Belgarath who is a total self-serving A-hole. I think he views the kingdom as his personal club-house and his only care is that it sticks around. Keep up the great commentary!

[@fernebrown8083]

Ah your Blade itself review was the first vid of yours that I saw! This is really well laid out. I agree for the most part, apart from Glokta. I kinda got the feeling at the end that he was the only one that was thriving and loving life 😂. He married a girl he genuinely connected with to help raise the kid, and I got the impression he was pretty aligned with Bayaz's vision for the Union. He was no longer under the thumb of an arch lector that he didn't respect, he was essentially the leader of the Union with a figurehead as king, as long as he just kept in line with Bayaz. That's a bit of an ascension I'd say. I read best served cold and was a bit meh about it but started The Heroes anyway. Ugh I'm 13 chapters in and just not enjoying it. It's just more war and everyone saying goodbye before a battle but then surviving. My partner says it's pretty much that way for the rest of the book too so I'd be interested if you actually like it. I'm gonna leave it for a bit. Ah I have to report on Sword of Kaigen! I loved it to put it simply! Right from the start I was immediately drawn into the world. It was just my kind of fantasy. However then Kwang Chul hee became a character entirely for the purpose of exposition. It felt verry heavy handed. Especially the convenience of plot like the ✈️. By the time they got to the blacksmiths and he'd said his fourth, 'wait..what?" I was like Ugh no this is annoying i need a break. So I read Empress of Salt instead but fully intended to come back right after. Joh! Then it hit right in the gut. Her descriptions of the fights are really vivid. I loved Setsuko even if she was a bit one dimensional. Hyori...just no. That hit the hardest. 😭 Although I predicted Takeru's arc and it was a bit wrapped up with a bow quite quickly it felt satisfying. I loved Misaki. She weirdly gave me Vin character voice vibes (minus the childhood trauma and age). Similar self doubts and inner conflict. But I felt she benefited from a female author. I have my issues with Vin.😂 The ending was a bit..eh but I get she had to tie things in with her series. Still. Maybe didn't need it. Oof this is long.

[@Bookborn]

Yeah I can see how you could read Glokta as having an ascension. I feel that he didn't like being under Bayaz though - that was just my reading of it. I think I'd have to see his perspective again in other books to really make a decision either way on that one. I was already nervous to start the Heroes and now I'm more so 😬 I was meh about BSC as well and I'm already unsure about Heroes since I know it's literally ALL battle... I'm so glad you loved Sword of Kaigen! I was blown away too! Misaki is just such a great character. I like Vin but also have my issues with her. I think there were a lot of things with Misaki that you could tell she was written by a female author - particularly her feelings around pregnancy, miscarriage, children - it was really nuanced and I feel like could speak to a lot of women.

[@VicRibeiro777]

Very interesting analysis. I didn't think of this while reading the first trilogy. I just knew what I liked and did not like as much. Thinking back I mostly agree with you. Very well done.

[@Bookborn]

Thanks for watching :)

[@VicRibeiro777]

@@Bookborn thank you for making quality content. :)

[@thatsci-firogue]

My love of anti-heroes is probably why I love Dark + Grimdark Fantasy and Science-Fiction as much as I do.

[@Bookborn]

I can understand the love. I'm basic and still love the classic hero, but I do have to say I love what Abercrombie did here.

[@HysteriaDuzz]

I've read some Joseph Campbell (A Hero with a Thousand Faces) and I love Joe Abercrombie, and wow this theory is interesting. The closest thing I've read to this would probably be Glen Cook, particularly "The Black Company". Another grimdark, another story where objectively bad characters get dragged through the mud and end up either right where they started or worse. I prefer Abercrombie personally, but there are similarities. (Disclaimer: I didn't finish the Black Company series in it's entirety yet so I could be wrong)

[@Bookborn]

I'm hoping to read Campbell sometime next year. I think it would be a really great base...but I'm also worried it'll be boring as all get out 🤣

[@toinenosoite3173]

Excellent video and excellent points. Nevertheless, I truly don't know if I agree with you. And this disagreement doesn't touch on the hero versus anti-hero journey at all (there, contrary to all else, I do agree with you) - no it concerns the point of view of the books in general. IMO the books aren’t about the characters at all - the POV characters are fundamentally ancillary. The books are about the world, and about the place of the characters in it, and unfortunately for them that doesn’t go anywhere. If you think about the ending of the first trilogy, the only thing you got was a basis for future development (i.e. more books) manipulated by powerful beings. That is actually why I was fairly disappointed and underwhelmed at the end. There was no feeling of resolution at all for anything. And this totally reflects your analysis of the character development. What you had was an understanding that the world is a playground for two demigods with a personal grudge against one another. The only hope you could find anywhere at the end, was subtextual in the dialogue between Glokta and Jezal. And even that was so incredibly thin…

[@Bookborn]

I think your criticism of the series is really valid and the criticism I see most often when people don't like First Law. For whatever reason, I just loved the fact that all of our characters were essentially pawns and that they were helpless at the end - it sucked but it was just SO GRIM without having anything to do with gore/violence/etc. But, that's why I think it *was* about those characters, because that's all we really had, you know? There wasn't a ton of plot. And I think that worked for me but I can see how it just falls so flat for some people. I just finished reading The Blacktongue Thief which was really similar in that it was all character-focused and didn't have a lot of plot. But, the difference, is that I totally didn't connect to the main character and so it fell flat for me. I think with Abercrombie, it has to hit you a certain way or it just won't work.

[@toinenosoite3173]

@@Bookborn I can totally understand why you love the ending - it is truly grim and, if I may use another word that IMO reflects it well, extremely bleak. Personally, I have no problems with that per se, and can find truth or something similar in it, but I was very surprised that there was no real “catharsis” at the end. Anyway, I can accept that, as there are other books after the first series, but it does lessen my enjoyment of the first three books. Nevertheless, I have already continued reading First Law, i.e. I have finished Sharp Ends, am reading Red Country at the moment, and will go on with the second trilogy. However, this time I very much expect some kind of a resolution - in one way or another. He can't leave us hanging there forever, can he? :-) My big question is, whether JA originally planned the first trilogy to end in this way? Or was it something that he changed, as it became clear that he can continue the series? My guess is the second alternative - as a stand-alone trilogy, I find that the first three books would be extremely unsatisfactory.

[@Bookborn]

@@toinenosoite3173 I go back and forth. Sometimes I think it's super unsatisfactory, and sometimes I feel like it's the only way it could've ended. Because whether or not you like it, it IS unsatisfactory in a lot of ways, if that makes sense. But I just couldn't see a lot of different endings for our characters that weren't happy (which wouldn't make sense) or death. But, I'm just not versed enough in grimdark to know the other options, you know?

[@safinan8008]

I finally purchased Jo Abercrombie books... I’m nervous I hardly read grim dark books 😐😐😐 hoping to read them soon 😊😊😊😊 great 👍 video!!

[@Bookborn]

I was soo nervous to do Grimdark too! But I really enjoyed this, hopefully you will too. Although, it didn't convince me to go read a bunch of grimdark, that's for sure lol

[@safinan8008]

@@Bookborn thank you! The only one other grim dark series I started Steven Erikson books... 😨😨😨 that’s about much I can read grim dark for now... thank you

[@mccrme]

​@@safinan8008 First Law is nothing like Malazan at all so don't let that discourage you. It's very easy to get into and a lot of fun despite the grimdark themes.

[@safinan8008]

@@mccrme thank you!!

[@Morfeusm]

@@safinan8008did you like The First Law Trilogy in the end?

[@eddieferrero]

I agree with this youtuber’s theory. And I had fun watching this video. However, they chose to leave out Collem West’s journey. And because of that I’m afraid I can’t take any of their future videos seriously.

[@Bookborn]

I was focusing on the three primary characters, imo, but I think West can fit into this too. I love West, but he does go through a depressing descent. As much as I was completely rooting for him killing who he did (don't want spoilers), no denying that it affected him poorly. And the ending...man, poor him. Of course, I've only read the original trilogy and BSC, so if his story continues, I can't comment on it because I dont know it.

[@eddieferrero]

@@BookbornFive star reply. Thank you.

[@skeezixcodejedi]

... now I'm sad ;) - I didn't actually realize Logan survived the ending, though it sounds like the suggestion is he did and went quiet ... so maybe he's better off? (I've only read the trilogy.. is he ever mentioned again?) - Glokta I figured he'd come off better.. being more in control perhaps, so he can influence things; and he's married now with West's sister (name forgotten), so that sounds better.. maybe he won't be so miserable and alone? .. I forget what happened to West Need to get back to Abercrombie, but got sucked into Stormlight

[@Bookborn]

Actually, none of those characters appear in BSC so I honestly have no idea right now if we will see them again! I know as much as you know. However, I always assumed Logen survived and was just starting over... we last saw him running away, so it's not definitive in any way. And look...being sucked into stormlight is at least happier 😂

[@Old_Man_LoganIII]

I don’t think the bloody nine is Logan, but something he does not control

[@Bookborn]

I thought that until the third book tbh, where it’s sort of clear it’s still part of him I think

[@mcudrew5080]

I love this trilogy SO much! I am almost through the stand alones (loved Best Served Cold, but have had to slog through the other two). Is the new trilogy a match to the first?

[@Bookborn]

No idea, I haven't gotten there yet! I'm starting Hero's next. But I've heard the new trilogy is Abercrombie's best work yet. I'm so excited to get to it.

[@mcudrew5080]

@@Bookborn that gets me pumped. I'm still going to read his short story collection next though. Don't wanna miss any details of the world. Hopefully some great authors see your breakdown and use that model more often lol. I'd live a marvel movie like!

[@adamclareburt7822]

I get what you mean ASOIAF, the only other grime dark I've read, feels similar at times but when characters are having a good time(relitvly speaking it GOT where talking about) it's often I think to draw reader into a fulse sences of security rather than as part of the story's structure. tho thier hard to compare because ASOIAF dosn't feel like it's structured as much as most other stories

[@Bookborn]

Although I haven't read ASOIAF, I have heard that it has a super unique story arc/style.

[@adamclareburt7822]

@@Bookborn it's more very unpredictable. In a normal book when I read you can tell roughly from the pacying and how far through a story you are when somthing big going to happen. But in ASOIAF I really had no idea. it's a big reason why I think it's so popular.

[@DrakkanWoW]

I'm not watching the video yet as I just finished book 2 this morning. However, I love these first two books. I have the third book in queue. Does he have another book or series that is similiar that you would recommend? Or is there another author you would consider?

[@Bookborn]

I haven't read all of his other First Law series, but I think they are all really similar in tone! I've just read Best Served Cold. But there is also the Heroe's, and Red Country and a new series! They are all in the same world so have similar vibes!

[@currangill430]

What did you think of Best Served Cold?

[@Bookborn]

It was meh. I didn't like it nearly as much as the original trilogy. It was just average - didn't hate it, didn't love it.

[@currangill430]

@@Bookborn Do you not like revenge tales? That could be it!

[@currangill430]

@@Bookborn 7 months later, have you made it to Age of Madness?

[@trewaldo]

They always make it sound as if the hero of the story is the only one who can overthrow the current or incumbent system in order to achieve change. Just saying... 🥰🤓😍

[@Bookborn]

Are you saying in First Law or just in general? I definitely think that's a part of the chosen one trope, which is common in a hero's journey.

[@trewaldo]

@@Bookborn In general. 😂

[@currangill430]

George RR Martin is much less grim dark than Joe Abercrombie. For example, Tyrion is pretty much his "hero" so he doesn't get the shit that much. With First Law every one of his characters gets shat on even if they don't die. If they make bad decisions in ASOIAF (I'm not really sure if this is grim dark anymore or just dark fantasy) they usually end up getting killed in First Law they just get fucked. To answer your question, I have only really read First Law and ASOIAF (does Witcher count?) out of grim dark but they follow similar mold but First Law is much more darker. I did try the Prince of Thorns but my moral compass couldn't handle a pov who bragged about raping a farmer's daughter and his friends were just pieces of shit (rapists, murderers, basically pieces of shit) and I quit the trilogy because the pov was just an asshole. I read some comic books/manga which were grim dark but for the most part they were just shitty people none of them were gray and likable unlike First Law and ASOIAF (Game of Thrones) which have fantastic characters and character development.

[@Bookborn]

I feel like with grimdark there's a super fine line between terrible people and terrible people that you can at least stand to read 😂 I was told very plainly I'd never make it through Prince of Thorns. I have zero desire to read it for just exactly what you stated. Too dark for me.

[@currangill430]

@@Bookborn I can't tolerate rapists. I can't. Joe Abercrombie stated that he will never depict rape because he has daughters and a wife and his time in psychology he understands the pain and agony of rape. He also said he doesn't think he could do post rape experiences any justice. All the rape he shows is off page which I appreciate. GRRM does this somewhat but there are some times where it is on page. I quit reading Berserk because of this, rape makes me uncomfortable I have many friends (mostly female) who have been raped and some committed sucicide and some have not recovered even years afterwards.

[@aizensousuke7170]

Bayaz is not pronounced Bäyaz , and Jazal :))))))....... pls listen to the audiobooks, than you know