John Mark Comer on Attending Church After Leading One & Stepping Down from Leadership

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John Mark Comer returns to the podcast to debrief his year-long Sabbatical after leaving Bridgetown Church as Lead Pastor, how stepping down from day to to day church leadership impacted his identity, why ministry is harder than it needs to be, the secret life of trees, and why attending a church after you've led one can be so hard.
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[@BradReis]

I’m there right now. Twenty three years as lead Pastor and now, full stop. Sacred quietness. Restructuring my next chapter in life without my ego identity. My wife and I are attending church for the first time together. Thanks for the vulnerability of this podcast!

[@melodyhaselden1742]

John Mark is one of the most direct and inspirational pastors I have heard in my lifetime. He is the reason I started reading my Bible differently. Everything he speaks is captivating. I pray his ministry no matter where he is, will continue to touch peoples lives and continue to grow. Never stop God has given you an amazing gift. ❤Thank you for sharing with our family.

[@HopeLives2012]

Is there a video I can go to that he teaches best way to read your Bible? Need help in that area 🤦‍♀️

[@koalalou68]

I totally agree👌🏾

[@JDSmith_ONLINE]

THIS. You two can save a lot of lives, churches, communities. Thank you.

[@CareyNieuwhof]

Too kind.

[@scribe_samples2309]

I appreciate the transparency both of you gave in this interview. I want you to know that as a lay leader for 30 years of Women’s ministry I experienced many of the things you talked about when I stepped down. It isn’t just Pastors. I was not ready for most of it and it was quite lonely. I am so glad I had prayerfully made peace that it was right and I had God’s timing to do so which brought me reassurance in those hard days that followed. Blessings on both of you.

[@heygracetran]

One of my favorite episodes on this podcast so far (and I've been listening for years). Thank you for sharing so transparently and vulnerably - not enough people talk about all this. Holy wounds, the struggles, the beauty and blessing of exactly where you are. Thankful for you both and your conversation shared.

[@CareyNieuwhof]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@davidshores]

Same here, really appreciated the transparency. I just finished Garden City a week ago. Have your book ready too, Carey 😊

[@justinnerd57]

Same! The part about the unique challenges of leaving ministry and going back to Church hit home so deeply for me. I'm so glad that John Mark had the support system that he had. I would say that 95% don't have those systems in place. You both have done so much to give words to the things that I have personally struggled with regarding ministry. This episode was for me!

[@terresagrace3767]

He by far has been the most well-spoken pastors I have ever listened to. I miss seeing him there at Bridgetown... Learned so much from him.

[@abriggs621]

JMC is showing up as a non-anxious presences. This is refreshing and hopeful. "I'm the problem" and "so much of 'it' was self-inflicted pain." It is a posturing that those who identify as followers of Jesus must embrace. I appreciate his candor. I wish every follower of Jesus would be able to participate in some of the intensive therapy JMC has done. Connecting the dots of our trauma genuinely connects us to Jesus and others. I think it was Dan Allender who said something like: This side of paradise ALL is trauma bc we are meant for paradise. We are not victims...but instead, sojourners.

[@dmwl09]

Many lessons here for non pastors as well! Thank you both for your authentic conversation.

[@CareyNieuwhof]

Thanks for listening

[@jesusbliss]

LOVED this. I want to nerd out about books with John Mark. Such a great guy.

[@sharinglifeministries4810]

Love your vulnerability. We need more vulnerability in our leaders. Comes out of identity, experience and WORK! Thanks guys

[@christianbaxter_yt]

I helped start a church when I was 16 as a worship leader back in 2002. In 2016 I lost that position as a direct result of decisions I made, and justly so. I continued to attend the church for 6 years after and it was brutal, but I knew it was right. I always spoke encouragingly to and about the new worship pastors. I attended and did not serve until the last 4 months I was there in 2022. It was brutal internally, and painful emotionally. But it was right to continue to let go again and again. Therapy was an integral help in this process of living this identity change out.

[@donnakemper3231]

I really appreciate how honest and vulnerable this interview was. Thank you.

[@reneadams2266]

He was our pastor for a couple of years until he went to Bridgetown....I have to say he did truly impact my life as a Christian and helped me to understand the scriptures. I appreciate him so very much!!

[@GTMGunTotinMinnesotan]

Oh man. This was really important for me to hear.

[@konik4]

I needed this so badly as I moved to another state. Left the church we have been a part of for 30 yrs, I was a volunteer to eventually on staff as the CP for 13yrs. Then 2020 happened, by may 2021 spouse had a new job offer in another state so I had resigned my post, left my brand new home we had just built, moved and by the end of 2021 I had lost 6 family members. 2022 was healing year, so we still have no local church, but stay connected to our previous church online. I am not sure whats next for me, I miss day to day operations of ministry and all things related to it. Its difficult to not be there. Im in the lonely period right now so this was so helpful as I navigate this next season. Thanks Carey for another great helpful and insightful vidcast! I too will be reading Phil 2

[@hprfire]

John Mark, The Lord took me through 2 solid years of the dark night of the soul. In that my hunger and thirst for Him, and the filling of the Spirit, and increased righteousness has done much to reshape my heart. Dr. Rob Reimer in describing his dark night says I learned to see in the dark, such was the subtly of god's interaction during that period. at this stage I would not say I have emerged fully from the dark night but the interactions are louder and more frequent. Perseverance brother. Also a close friend of my runs an organization in Cincinnati Ohio called Praxis. He has been doing similar work to your new venture for the past 3 years..

[@johnc2802]

I really appreciate hearing John Mark Comer's perspective on things. Thank you for having him on.

[@koalalou68]

Love John Mark's introspective ways and insight. He very capably voices what I find difficult to express in words. I always appreciate your and Carey's openness and honesty. Thank you both🙏🏾🙏🏾 Also - I highly recommend the The Secret Life of Trees. Fascinating parallelism to biblical and healthy community living.

[@AliciaSowah]

Great transparency! God bless you both! I listened to the podcast and came to KZbin to comment on the message. Thank you, John Mark Comer, I found you on the internet because of your work on the Sabbath and practicing the way.

[@andrearush6209]

Thank you for sharing your story. Praying for you and your family.

[@CareyNieuwhof]

Thanks for listening

[@CurlyHairArtistry]

I am a pioneer in my field and see how you both are pioneers and no one really discusses how pioneers have to let go and trust God with what was planted - this session addresses this process in a great way - thank you.

[@aartiroyan]

The two best thought leaders! Thanks Carey.

[@natebredeweg5351]

Such kind words! They are some of the best for sure 🎉🎉

[@cwizzart22]

Such an awesome conversation. Thanks for your transparency.

[@mbonburtness]

As a current Bridgetown church-goer who's been going there for 5 years - we do still miss you John Mark! Not to just give you an ego boost - but to say thought Tyler is great, he is different. And there is nothing like your teaching that has impacted my life in the way yours has. I miss your current and fresh perspective on what God is currently doing in your life.

[@DeconTheMonkey]

I resonate so much with all this. Like I can just feel the emotions spoken in the conversation.

[@PottersClayTalks]

I love the honesty of this conversation. thank you gentlemen.

[@thedrewwitt]

Thank you Carey

[@aliciaglauser2184]

The family life in the ministry often suffer, it’s a blessing to see that taking a break doesn’t mean failing your people.

[@katesmith8424]

This is really relatable as well to those outside of the ministry context. Love John Mark's teaching 💗

[@mtchnelson]

Incredible conversation! Thank you for the honesty!

[@samr9336]

Thank you so much for sharing. What John Mark says at 1:19:00 about missing what was but blooming where you are now is such a good reminder. Different circumstances for me, but very similar emotions.

[@angiepickel4619]

Thank you for this very honest and vulnerable conversation. I needed it. Blessings.

[@mariosolari7921]

Thank you! powerful episode! Thank you for being open!

[@vickylloyd7734]

That was such an unbelievably helpful interview, thank you so much. So profound.

[@landonyowell5418]

Thankful to just listen in on this conversation from these guys. It's very helpful.

[@mtjoy747]

I used to NEVER take my cell phone to church, mainly because it interfered with the very old sound desk LOL - but also I genuinely wanted a break from the Monday to Friday "Can you help me with my computer problem?"

[@sharinglifeministries4810]

This is excellent. Thank you both

[@craigbird6708]

Really enjoyed this conversation, thank you for having it.

[@CarinaFischer]

Thank you so much for this podcast it has been more meaningful to me than words can express. Can you recommend any resources in such a wilderness and buriel season? Thanks again❤

[@RevEricEvans]

I've been preaching for 23 years and I pastored a church for 10 years. I was bivocational and the demands of my job made it so I couldn't be the pastor I felt the church needed. They couldn't afford to hire me full time. God led me to step down, and I left the church when the new Pastor started to give him room to become pastor without my presence. I think that was a great decision for him and the church, but has been very difficult for me. I still absolutely believe it was God's will that I step down from leading the church, but this transition season has been very difficult. Your conversation here was helpful. God bless you and thank you.

[@CareyNieuwhof]

Cheering for you, Eric.

[@CliffjumperCars]

A friend once told me: You can't vacation at Disneyland when you work at Disneyland. No matter how magical & vibrant your church is, or how life giving it is when you are pastoring it, when it is time for you to not pastor it, you need to not be there, for your health, the health of your family and your church. Whether that is for a vacation, sabbatical, or if you're called away from serving in that role... find somewhere else to be, where the heads won't be turning to look at you for your opinion on how things are going when you're not leading.

[@kathleencaudill7717]

Excellent interview!!

[@bradenwhite9586]

This was extremely helpful. I loved it! Thanks so much!😊

[@rogerdaniel9280]

Great conversation. Would have liked to hear more about how all of this affects spouses and family members.

[@evententertainmentproducer5120]

It's wonderful that a pastor can at times take that time off. Each of them needs to ponder during that time that not a single one of their parishioners will ever have such a pleasure. For them the only time off is when they totally lean on christ.

[@Sara_Lubna]

"Hidden Life of Trees" is a lovely book (and a great documentary to boot), but I cannot recommend "Reforesting Faith" enough by Matthew Sleeth.

[@edeancozzens3833]

Ive been a faithful Christian all of my life. Very active. Attended seminary. Ive been in church once to 3 times per week all of my life. In the last 4 churches ive attended i made a point to ask the pastor if they would be my friend. All four said no or walked away. How am i supposed to obey Hebrews 13:17. Watch. No one will answer this either.

[@chaddonal4331]

I will answer this. (I’m actually Preaching on Hebrews 13:7-16 this Sunday!) Something is very wrong about pastors being merely professionals from a distance. We should not merely be proclaimers of truth, but displayers of preferred ways of living. We need to be demonstrating what we are calling people toward. If we preach community, we need to live it. If we call church a family, we need to be leading participants. I am so sorry to hear that your pastors have chosen isolation and have rejected your overtures. Move on and keep looking. Find a pastor pursuing the way of Jesus with relational authenticity.

[@mtcstyle]

It's interesting how John said something to the affect of being able to be more real when he wasn't in ministry. Some of my best relationships are with non-church-goers. Part of the reason they won't go is because they view the church as phony. IMO, the world is craving for authenticity, to be in a place where they don't feel like they're a marketing target. It seems like church institutions have a way to go to promote honest living. Also, related to identity, I wish pastors saw themselves as children of God first. I never call someone "Pastor so-and-so," because there's so much temptation to root identity in being a pastor, not simply a human being.

[@SSBCGroups]

What was the name of the tree book that he discussed? Did he mean "The Hidden Life of Trees" by Peter Wohlleben? He said The Secret Life of Trees, but those appear to only be children's books.

[@mumfordwelding3723]

I would also like to know the name of the book John Mark mentioned. Please reply-

[@jonathonnewcomb5426]

Wow, he mentioned something about how he'd do church that kind of hints toward what I've seen to actually work....something that's not driven by just one pastor...he may not have hit on all I've seen to work with that, but the New Testament doesn't say pastors lead churches. In fact, Paul speaks of apostles first, prophets second as he describes the operations of community (1 Cor. 12:28). See Eph. 4:11-13 to see how all five (pastors all the way through apostles and prophets) will be in operation until the Church reaches maturity! Allowing a church to receive all five of these conduits of grace as opposed to just one or two (only a pastor and teacher) would be like having a fully functioning hand to move and grip as opposed to one finger. Also, the issue of having a way of life for people to live reminds me of how a church that operates more along the lines of how I've described builds a culture of like-minded community who are set to truly follow God. The typical only pastor leading system tends to create a church where there's maybe 20 percent serious and 80 percent nominal and taking things seriously is optional. God has been reforming some of the Church beyond that but the old structure often still is in place. Not saying God can't use that old structure and people may be called to varying expressions in the Body. BUT if you're a bit disillusioned and looking for something more in line with Eph. 4, it's actually in the earth! I've seen it. I have a strong desire for the Body of Christ to come to a new level! Much love to you.

[@georgejaggy6718]

Does anyone have a reference as to the name of the doctor that does the brain scans and approaches things holistically? Thanks a lot.

[@mariabarnes9197]

I wonder if taking the Emotionally Healthy Discipleship (church) / Emotionally Healthy (spirituality) Leader course and workshop by Pete Scazzero as a part of your training for pastorship would have been helpful to you? It seems as if it has been proving helpful to pastors & their congregations.

[@sarahcooney]

John Mark pastored for 18 years (and has been done for approx 1.5) and Emotionally Healthy Discipleship officially launched as a nonprofit in 2012, just 11 years ago…so the course wouldn’t have existed as an option during his pastoral training. I’m sure it WOULD have been helpful if it had though!

[@mariabarnes9197]

@sarahcooney thanks for your reply. I appreciate the update/ information you've provided! My hope is that other pastors & leaders will take hold of the opportunities for healing that are available now, & will incorporate them into the foundation of their churches.

[@pj773]

Would like elaboration on “a rule of life”. What does that mean?

[@anthonyyoung7042]

A rule of life is a method of practicing Christian spirituality that derives from St. Benedict’s rule for holy living when he directed a monastery in the 5th century. The Benedict option is a book to read to get more info from a modern perspective. Peace!

[@evanwickham4273]

Think of a trellis in a vineyard. If Christ is the vine, and we are the branches, then a Rule of Life becomes the trellis we grow by. It's a shared commitment to a "rule", which is a set of practices that we as a community say, "this is how we grow in Jesus here by the Spirit's power in the Father's love." Our church's Rule of Life is being built around the following eight practices: Scripture Silence and solitude Fasting Sabbath Generosity Hospitality Community Vocation Eight practices. Four inward. Four outward. This is how our community has chosen to mature together in Christ. When we say "we are a community following Jesus", our Rule of Life is the proof of purchase.

[@pj773]

@@evanwickham4273 very good. Insightful. Prodding.

[@kentpaulhamus2158]

Pride would make it hard. What we need to know about ourselves from God's Word and our only hope of being justified before God: [WHY WE HAVE NO HOPE IN OURSELVES: Mk. 7:20-23 And he (Jesus) said, That which comes out of the man, that defiles the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things (sins) come from within, and defile the man.] [WHY WE NEED A SAVIOR: Rom. 3:10-28 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things so ever the law says, it says to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his (God's) sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ to all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Joh. 14:6 For God so loved the world (us), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Rom. 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:]

[@stevendonohoe2150]

All these issues would go away if we actually lived how Jesus & Paul taught and that is as equals with Christ as the head. Different function's as the spirit wills but all equals giving more honor to the parts of the body that appear not as important as others through human wisdom. Giving double honor to older mature Christians like we do our parents. Apart from that ensuring equal honor amongst the body knowing that without equal honor & authority love can't flow properly throughout the body. That's why Paul taught so heavily on this because love is the goal. Real love can't exist in a hierarchy authority structure. That's how the world operates and not meant be so in the church as Jesus said to his disciples. We are a family of equals, different functions but equal honor & authority. Authority lies within the body itself not with an individual called Pastor ect...

[@mmladyg]

Jesus was an "Olympian" -- and invites us to same.

[@None_ya_B]

He is a flaming liberal and has said a few off the wall things while teaching. But I love the man and learned so much from John over the years. I hope he can find peace.

[@quorincollins9965]

This is sad.

[@TempleofChristMinistries]

Like many pastors they fail to understand, all that emotion that you are experiencing is the spiritual state of your heart, if you made many decisions out of the power of fear then you are unfaithful you are supposed to be full of the Holy Spirit not full of your own spirit, has any of these things been circumcised from you, because all you're looking at is doing this and doing that and changing the way you do this and do that yet, you failed to grow Within, that is your spirits your heart, to be transformed into the image of the Christ is to be transformed within yourself, is any of you actually being transformed, a spiritual man will speak spiritually but a worldly man will speak worldly and many of you pastors speak worldly, you do not realise that your emotional content is the spiritual state of your heart and it is these things that need to be circumcised and filled with light, where your treasure is there your heart will be also, when you suffer within yourself your heart is attached to the things of this world, if you have your heart attach to what is perishable when it perishes so does your heart, when the storm comes it reveals where your house is built, upon the rock or upon the sand, it seems to be that many pastors simply have their houses built upon the sand and when trouble comes or change comes your houses get washed away, the house is build upon the rock within you it is a spiritual house, why are you so full of uncleanliness why are you so filled with yourselves, Mother Teresa was not a woman of light she was a woman of Darkness and this darkness is revealed when one gets older instead of being transformed into the image of the Christ from glory to glory from light to light nothing has occurred, so as years pass by The Darkness consumes you, one should be boasting of how God has circumcised my heart removed my anxieties, my fears, my judgements, my attachments the list goes on, but no, all I hear is how you are full of the filth of the world and are uncircumcised, even if a man has perfect theology or can fathom all things yet not love yet not light then he has nothing, the greatest deception in the world is to think you are light when all you are is the darkness. Please pastor tell me how how you are filled with the glory of god as it is written, to be full of the glory of god, to be full of the Light of God, to be full of the spirit of God, perfect peace in heart and mind.

[@karencook3923]

May I just say that this is such great logic you are saying but it assumes a state of perfection this side of eternity is possible. Pastors are just as human as the rest of us. I know. My grandfather's were both pastors. I have two brother- in- laws who are pastors and a son and son- in- law that is a pastor. A nephew who is a pastor. Trust me, I see their humanity. It feels like it would have been more fruitful for you to have said much less here and prayed much more. More grace- less truth. I do not want to argue. Just want to give you some food for thought.

[@karencook3923]

My comments were directed to the michaelmichael post

[@TempleofChristMinistries]

@@karencook3923 I'm simply talking of the power of the Holy Spirit which so many people seem not to understand, what I speak of is written in scripture understand, be perfect for your heavenly father is perfect seek perfection, to be full of the glory of god is written, you have to understand the church has had 2000 years, where is perfect man where is perfect love. Because the Christian does not have the accuse I'm only human, or no one is perfect, this is an excuse the world uses, why does The Church of Christ and I mean globally in all denominations lack so much, why is it so full of it self and not full of the Holy Spirit as it is written.

[@chaddonal4331]

Your critique of Coner is severe and one-sided. It sounds as if you do not understand transparency. All your words are victorious. Life in our fallen world is a mixture of glory and lamentation. Perhaps consider deeply reading and meditating in the Psalms, for some balance.

[@TempleofChristMinistries]

@@chaddonal4331 perhaps you should consider deeply of my words and take them seriously and you to will be Victorious praise be to God for he cleansers our hearts to the full,

[@kevibushi6664]

Chorch ata hom merda

[@kevibushi6664]

Go chroch merda ata hom spiuna