John the Baptist: The Most Significant Figure In Religious History?

James McGrath spent last year researching John the Baptist, with travels that took him to Israel, Samaria, Oxford, and elsewhere. At this Brown Bag presentation, Professor McGrath will share photos from his travels and highlights from his research into a figure who has been overshadowed by the people and traditions that he influenced. All are invited to this session to learn about the person whom Jesus of Nazareth characterized as the greatest human being to ever live, the Gnostic religion that still holds John in high esteem, and how the wider ripples of John’s impact have influenced more moments in the history of religion than you probably realize.

[@celj92]

great insights!. cant wait to examine those two books on him coming out this year

[@ReligionProf]

The first one is out - let me know what you think!

[@kennethmeeker6369]

I’ve read some of your stuff on the mandeans that follow John the Baptist.

[@Tessa-o8j]

The Roman Catholic tradition has always made a big deal of John the Baptist, as evidenced by the celebration of his Nativity in June (midsummer) shadowing the celebration of Jesus’ Nativity in December (midwinter). It is also worth noting that the Church only celebrates nativities for 3 persons: Jesus, Mary, and John the Baptist. This is very significant. In some countries (like France) the June celebration of John the Baptist’s Nativity still happens, with bonfires, etc. That John the Baptist is a super important figure in Christianity is nothing new.

[@kenswanson8222]

Have you thought about being interviewed on History Valley?

[@ReligionProf]

I have done more than thought about it! 😂😂 kzbin.info/www/bejne/fXubiHyrrbd9j8k

[@kenswanson8222]

@@ReligionProfThanks, just watched your Data over Dogma podcast. What I’m interested in at the moment is the possible relationship between Simon Magus and John. I could be more skeptical about the pseudo Clement narrative as possibly just a polemic but given the common thread of Gnosticism between Simonism and the Mandaens this makes me more curious. It’s also difficult to gauge what Simon actually taught.

[@ReligionProf]

@@kenswanson8222 Oh, the Pseudo-Clementine material is definitely polemical. Polemic can be based on knowledge or ignorance and may represent the opposing views accurately, in distorted form, or offer wholesale fabrication. Were it not for the things that Samaritan sources say about a Dustan (Dosithean) sect among them, and Theodore bar Koni's use of the term Dosthean in reference to the Mandaeans, I would feel less confident that there is some historical information embedded in the Pseudo-Clementine polemic including there having been a connection between John the Baptist, Dositheus of Samaria, and Simon of Samaria (aka Simon Magus).

[@ReligionProf]

There are a couple of talks that give a very general idea of some of what is still forthcoming in the bigger study due out in October as pertains to the origins of Gnosticism. Here is one of them: www.patheos.com/blogs/religionprof/2020/08/talk-gnosis-the-origins-of-gnosticism.html

[@kenswanson8222]

@@ReligionProf Thank so much for the reply, this gives me a lot to think about and look up. I am toying with the idea that the Simonians had an outsized influence on the development of late second century Christianity which might explain the volume of ink spilled attacking him, similar to the likely motive for attacking Marcion. I have always held your view towards all heresiology, and unwinding what the actual beliefs were is difficult, if possible. However, the idea that Dosithean and Simon both gave rise to schools of gnostic thinkers suggests something about John the Baptist, especially if they truly were rivals. In the case of Simon, how he is portrayed in Luke and how the heresiologist handled him is jarring and I can't put any stock in either, but Simonians were a known quantity when all these texts were written. One thing that caught my attention was the assertion that Marcion was collegial with Cerdo. Unlike you, I lean more towards Marcion priority, but modified. I think that the EV is older than Marcion, that Marcion edited both the EV and Apostolikon and then contemporary writers used these and extant literature and oral traditions to shape the canonical texts. Mark might have pre-existed in some form but became "synoptic" at this time. Maybe Marcion knew this early Mark tradition. As a hypothesis that you could probably destroy, this suggests the collision of two disparate traditions in the person of Marcion. The Gnositic traditions that started (for some reason) with John's followers through Simon in the west was decidedly not related to the Jesus movement or Paul. With the death of Menander, they appear to have become more open to Jesus filling in for their own dead messiah personages. By the time Cerdo comes around, Paul might have been more significant to them, and Cerdo might have been the source for the Apostolikon. Marcion was probably, by the traditional story, a Jesus follower. Marcion retained Jesus as the central figure but adopted Cerdo's cosmology, and I think possibly Paul becomes altered in their redactions. Just as I can't trust the Church fathers on Marcion and Simon, I can't trust the Apostolikon on Paul, and the Canonical version is probably even worse. I have no academic methodology backing any of this, it's just probably conspiracy theory level machination. I would like to see it challenged though.

[@lovetwentyfourseven7428]

I like to think John had the cloak of elijah passed down.

[@bothewolf3466]

This is great! BUT!!!!>>..and this is IMPORTANT.....the microphone stinks. Its dissonant. Its 2024, there is NO REASON for this. Go buy a quality "gaming" mic. EZ fix.

[@bothewolf3466]

......I use a brand called "blue yeti". One of many quallity options available on any major seller found online. ......one time expense, long term rewards.......PLEASE get a better mic. Please?

[@ReligionProf]

@@bothewolf3466 Alas, it was the microphone built into the room. I use a Yeti when I'm recording podcasts and for other purposes, so it's a good recommendation!

[@bothewolf3466]

@@ReligionProf Yucko-o. Kinda figured this must be it. The institution owning the mic ought to consider replacing the 90s or 00s model they have :)

[@lovetwentyfourseven7428]

If John is a naseroii he should have a turban on.

[@ReligionProf]

Assuming that current Mandaean priestly clothing goes back to John, which we do not have evidence for (and evidence against in the New Testament).

[@lovetwentyfourseven7428]

i find it interesting that the "Crown of life" is all over the new testament, not in our sense of a crown, this head covering, I would imagine that motif, in their cultural mindest would absolutely be a turban, and this turban is special, they also are describes as wearing pure white linen, etc. the sybmolis in the book of Revelation, referrs to this all over! We have to relate the word used to its cultural origin and understsanfing! getting the "turban of hyaa', or life, is of a very important symbol all in the nt writings, this turban may be symbolis in that context for a reason! @@ReligionProf

[@lovetwentyfourseven7428]

Read this and read this next to first john, and the gospel of John, I. In the name of life, in the name of the Manda d-Haijē and in the name of that first man who is older than water, splendor, light and glory, the man who called with his voice and spoke with his speech. By his voice and speech, vines sprouted and came into being, and the first life was established in his Škīnā. @@ReligionProf

[@ReligionProf]

There is nothing in the New Testament texts to suggest that the term for crown envisaged a turban, much less one worn when baptism was performed. The wearing of white linen garments in early Christian baptism as well as in Mandaeism does suggest on the other hand that that element may go back to John the Baptist.

[@thechristianpodcastingnetw8458]

He's very clever how he is trying to frame is true intentions which is to separate the qumran community from John, horrible approach

[@elchasai]

Thank you so for this presentation Dr. McGrath, I only wish I were in the Indianpolis area. There is no doubt that John was more popular, well-known and regarded than the Jesus-James movement, the writers were at pains to show their audiences that legitimacy for their claims were somehow proffered as late as the execution eve of John, these movements obviously being silmutaneously independent and contemperanous. The desperation of the Gospel writers to illustrate this connection has always been apparent, that their is an organic connection to major Essenic forethought is obvious I think to both movements, John being something of a revitilizer and popularizer of the eschatologic soteriology and ascetic purification of an almost pre-Mosaic preoccupation seems to be a distinct possibility, and there can be found not just cognates but I think a clear organic relation to the 'Son of Man' concepts from Ezekeial and the Melchizedek and War scrolls and the Book of Enoch. Is there perhaps a relationship to be found with some sort of proto-Gnosticism, perhaps from the heterdox and esoteric Jewish sects such as the Maghariya, or Bana'im (Hemerobaptists) ? There is clearly a great amount of relation to the Merkavah tradition evidenced by exegeses in the dead sea scrolls and hekhalot literature. This is an emanationist sort of pondering similar to the Mandaean conceptualization, which is clearly related to Sethian gnosticism, perhaps the oldest strata of independent Gnostic tradtion thus far identified. Is Sethian thought, not connected to the Son of Man tradition? Is Hibil Ziwa not the son of Man? Is John connected to a real and decipherable lineage of schools in Samaria, whom and what are the connections to Dositheos and Simon 'Magus'?? Sorry if this is rambling. But I am very interested, deeply interested, in the literature, including the most esoteric meanings, within Mandaean tradition. I have studied this for a long time and really would be deeply interested in learning a great deal, you can see many differences in Mandaean literature depending on the the intended audience. But at the core you can see a Sethian gnosis that I think is mirrored to something Mesopotamian/Zurvanite. But what is the origin, etymologically of their Nasoraiia/Nasoraean priesthood and Nazirutha. That is so endlessly fascinating. I think the claims of the Mandaeans themselves as to their connection to Yahia Yuhanna need to be taken much more seriously than most scholars have allowed for.

[@steveclark8538]

Fascinating TY so much

[@ReligionProf]

The biography of John the Baptist that I wrote will be out in June! amzn.to/3Vjzvc8