Participation and The Secret history of Christianity w/ Mark Vernon- Voices with Vervaeke

[@StephenDix]

I've been in and out and in and out of Dr. Vervaeke's feed for a couple years and what always brings me back is a random search for the next thing that interests me. Leaning in to Barfield got me here fast. Thanks again, Dr. Vervaeke!

[@alisaruddell3484]

I’ve followed you both independently for quite a while-what a delight to hear you dialogue together. Encore! Thank you both!

[@heatherallen7529]

Thank you! This is teaching me it is possible to dissect spirituality without destroying it. I’m so appreciative of the work you are both doing!

[@OZMus]

Highly important. It's easy to completely throw it aside as a useless paradigm without fully delving into the richer parts of spirit that really touch human nature. I love these discussions because they really combine all aspects of being with spirit - touching on philosophy, psychology, religion, the creativity of imagination (imaginal vs imaginary). It's necessary in ways many don't realize.

[@christopherhamilton3621]

An engaging conversation, thank-you both!

[@leedufour]

Thanks Mark and John.

[@johnvervaeke]

Thanks Lee

[@joelsacrafamilia9833]

now only Matthew and Luke are remaining.

[@lizellevanwyk5927]

Really enjoyed this! Will be searching for more of your conversations with Mark for future "Sunday sermons" for sure! 🙂

[@lindacarroll3718]

I've enjoyed this conversation so much. Thank you. I loved Mark Vernon's reference to the goldfinches nesting in his garden. I have that kind of relationship also - as well as the birds I have 5 foxes in the garden two badgers and squirrels. It's such a joy to feel connected to nature. I also love the cosmos and am trying to reconnect with the 'Divine'. I think it is true that what is required is a creative and imaginative religious revival. Thank you for sharing all these wonderful thoughts, feelings and affinities with ALL. A totality of integrated realms of human experience - not to forget the Shadow.

[@tara_artist]

Vervaeke and Vernon in conversation about Owen Barfield is perhaps one of the most important and insightful things on the internet today. Thank you both for shining a light on the center of the meaning crisis. I think Barfeild is key here! And Esotaric Christianity and or any of the spiritual mystery traditions. The only thing I'd add is... give Rudolf Steiner a bit of your time and attention. He is challanging, but important.

[@jfreeman2927]

John is charming. My takeaway is that it's important to provide/create routines and habits so more people can relax, trust and exchange ideas within the abstract environment where we reside.

[@mattgumbley6080]

Really enjoyed that. I’d watch more of a discussion between the two of you.

[@bobbysworld8186]

I have had paranormal experiences that scared me and others that changed my ideal of life after death. My sister seen my friend that passed away weeks prior , I didn't believe her so next time he was present she took a picture , I seen the picture and started to cry, in the picture he look like a hologram and I could only see waist up . Also he was wearing the same baseball hat he was buried with. This was over 10yrs ago and I dont expect ne one to believe it , I didn't believe her until I seen the picture . I still dont know what to conclude from this happening.

[@bobbysworld8186]

This is just 1 of many other experiences within the frame of "paranormal" I've had .

[@deanruble2864]

As a recovering person, I'm wondering about the relationship of reciprocal narrowing at its extreme and suicide or a soft suicide through overdose. I experienced a time late in my addiction which I have seen in others where objectively I was seen as being suicidal or at least displaying behaviors consistent with extreme self destructive tendencies without consciously recognizing it myself; now as an addiction physician, I see it in others. I asked one patient about this one day--denied suicidal thoughts or ideations but he overdosed only a few days later despite urgent psychiatric referral...

[@socraticsceptic8047]

I remember Mark from Comments is Free 'religion and philosophy' section years ago...:)

[@jasonaus3551]

Perfect

[@kbeetles]

This was magic gents! The most particular and not the most general that is the most universal ! Wow! .... and many more wows for me as I was following your dialogue.... you are keeping very good company these days, John! :o) ((...and you are not bad company yourself!!)) Can I stick with you a little bit longer?

[@JL-gb1jt]

great.

[@socraticsceptic8047]

There is another option re knowing - participation in the Forms... How do we perceive equal things? It is not by empirical induction.. we must already have access to somewhere in the unconscious the form of the Equal - part of us participates with the Equal and that allow us to perceive equal things in the world... And this is why learning about equal things is 'recollection' in the sense that you can draw out from someone that two sticks that are equal length (have this special property) just by questioning them not telling them that they are 'Equal'

[@OZMus]

Thank you for sharing :) love the combination of imaginal with Platonic essence of truth (though you both don't entirely combine the two here) -- always saw the two as essential to understanding revelatory experience beyond illusory, beyond the shadows on the cave wall. (Switching gears) In terms of words, language, change of meaning, objectivity, and power - I'm curious if you've ever looked into combining (comparing, contrasting) these theories with media philosophy. I know it's completely left field, but thought I'd ask. In pursuit of participation, I'll leave that as it is without elaboration.

[@gunterappoldt3037]

When Heidegger said that "language" was the "house of being" he might have implicitly referred to the basic epistemo-ontological divide between "yôu míng" and "wú míng" in Master Lâo`s Dàodéjing (verse 1) or, maybe, the philosphy of F.D.E. Schleiermacher. In this case, one might say, that "language" falls, more or less, in one with what we use to call (wide awake, respectively "light") consciousness. To contemplate "language" in this widest, deepest, "roundest" sense would mean some kind of approaching a "limes" (--> infinitesimal calculus), maybe the "void" of Mahayâna, or the "gateless gate" of Chán-Master Wúmén - and go radically ("to the roots") transcendental.

[@gunterappoldt3037]

Addendum: Yes, the idea of the big divide, may be, was rather formulated explicitly by the "old continental-philosophical Master" Schlegel.

[@rbradhill]

great stuff- why not just keep convo rolling on new topic, tie together with extra content generation?

[@merlepatterson]

Would like to have seen their take on whether they believe all children are born atheist and how and why programmatic social and academic indoctrination decides the varying global culture bases. Even those possible indoctrinated biases which may exist among educated western philosophers which bridges the world between metaphysics and science as pseudo theocratic crutches.

[@MattFRox]

Merle Patterson I sincerely don’t mean to sound condescending when I say this but it seems to me that you can answer this question for yourself by looking at various developmental models and posit an opinion on which is a greater influence on those models: nature vs nurture, genetics vs conditioning.

[@marklefebvre5758]

I have to disagree with 'too long or people won't watch' - nah. This ended pretty well, but past talks could have gone on longer and granted increased understanding/clarity IMHO. I'm not sold on this ritual/rationality relationship that is proposed. I think that ritual is the physical manifestation of the rational process - is that commensurate with what you are trying to say here?

[@OZMus]

I agree with you on the ritual piece. Ritual at its most simplistic permeates every part of our existence. Look at how this virus has put a wrench in our gears of practical action. People lose their common rituals of everyday life, their consistent patterns. I know I have, at least. Ritual does promote rational action and settles intent in the mind.

[@marklefebvre5758]

@@OZMus I'm struggling with this ritual thing, the conception that we are mapping the physical world into the mental world in this way matches with a recent model I have been pondering but also doesn't quite fit (is not quite apt?) in the same sense as I think is outlined in this talk. If only whatever god is in charge of insight would help me out. :)

[@OZMus]

@@marklefebvre5758 I view it interchangeable - ritual taking mental maps and manifesting those into physical representations and vice versa. The physical representations being the symbols you use. At the same time and conversely you can use physical symbols to set intent into the mind, establish desire with ritual, create maps, self hypnosis with physical symbol. Often I think this is what religion does because the symbols and the actions aren't necessary to connect with divine happenstance. It does help, however. Our brains recognize patterns and patterns exist throughout reality. It makes sense that we would organize meaning through pattern and ritual helps with that.

[@seth4766]