Relevance realization, predictive processing, and the no-self experience w/ Mark Miller

Mark Miller is a former student of mine, and currently he and I are work with Brett Andersen
• Relevance realization,... to integrate relevance realization theory with predictive processing theory. Mark has made use of that as well as some of my work on mindfulness to recently do experimental and theoretical work on people going through an experience of no self. Mark distinguished between a pathological version as in depersonalization and self-transcendence that can be conducive to the cultivation of meaning.
See the Cognitive Science Show series on the nature and function of the self. : • The Elusive I - Part 1...
This is part of my series Voices with Vervaeke: Science, Spirituality, and the Meaning Crisis. You can support my work on Patreon, with the proceeds going into the research I do at the University of Toronto on the Meaning Crisis and the cultivation of wisdom here: / johnvervaeke
Join the Discord Server to discuss and reflect upon my work: / discord

This talk is beyond awesome. By the way, i've never seen John so happy in a call.

[@evertjandas1775]

It's because John's prediction error's are being minimized at a rate better than expected :-)

[@markm550]

@@evertjandas1775 Thats true!

[@annenicholsonmbtp]

17:45 Karl Friston “We don’t HAVE a model of the self, we ARE [a model of the self].” 44:17 “Suddenly you have the strange phenomenology that the world is flat, nothing calls to me, I don’t feel like anything matters, I don’t know who I am anymore…” (athymia and depersonalization) 53:00 Spiritual bypassing and depersonalization 55:04 “We’ve had valence driving precision since we were worms.”

[@dezatron]

Internet archeologists of the future will be almost as happy to find this gem as John and Mark were to participate in it :)

[@reverie4632]

49:00 Understanding clearly that meditative practice is not inimical to everyday experience and important feelings helped me. 1:00:00 "mindfulness is not dispassion, mindfulness isn't cessation of events, mindfulness is sharp powerful scrutiny of the thing so that you can really understand what it's about." Now that is a quote worth remembering.

[@alexandrazachary.musician]

Holy S#%*!!! You guys just did it!!! That was totally awesome. Now I can send this talk to my science-head friends who tell me my Buddhism is pathological. Thank you ❤️❤️❤️❤️

[@renegadegardener]

Wow, I have never heard the mechanics of trauma and awakening explained so succinctly. This has been an exceptional dialogue. Thanks you guys.

[@ben-sanford]

"...Meta-optimal gripping, flowing in self-worlding.." Just wow. Thank you both!

[@soul_voyage]

Best conversation I have seen so far. I very much appreciate the view of psychological disorder rather as a error in the updating system that has been fed with not good enough information. The way the topic is laid out is phenomenal:) thank you and greeting from germany.

[@Andrew.baltazar]

Hearing the concept of meta-optimisation is an awakening experience in itself. I'm actually stunned 🤣🤣

[@maidenmonster2589]

Can’t get enough of Vervaeke! Thank you!

[@newenglandbarbell4647]

Brilliant conversation, wisdom and poetry in motion. 👏👏👏

[@stevennancarrow5044]

This brought me to tears ... it's been a harrowing 2 years of complete life change from an internal experience and to hear it explained plus pointing to wrong routes ive taken and it to be totally justifiable to follow such an out there prompt let alone reconfiguring the primal mechanism independently ... aaaaarrrrggggghhhhhh thank you !

[@josephjacobs4799]

If ever I could commission a podcast mini series (and know how much of a life changing impact it would have on myself and others) it would be Mark Miller and yourself doing a comprehensive enquiry into predictive processing and self organisation (more generally).

[@ericarzt9128]

This channel has provided me amazing tools of transformation and meaning making that has improved my quality of life and the lives and of those I impact. Thank you both for bringing this talk to us.

[@Lethemographilogical]

Thank you so much for having this conversation. This brought some things together for me in a very meaningful and articulate way. You have made someone's life better by having this conversation. Can't wait for the next conversation!

[@TheSpiralHero]

Something in this conversation really clicked for me. This is life changing stuff! Thank you for the insights.

[@missh1774]

oh man... i got high without drugs. was so good espically the last few minutes was gold. phew! ferari quality ty guys. mad i tell ya! (which means good quality).

[@Valosken]

John, I'm so glad this now here. This is where it is as far as I'm concerned. I *truly* cannot wait for more. At the end there, that's Curiosity and Doubt!

[@nice-job]

Awesome! Just woke up to this conversation and I was encouraged to meditate and fine tune my meditation practice this morning. Thank you John and Mark.

[@jamesburns4226]

To quote John, "I think that is wonderfully tasty at a deep epistemic level!"

[@JiminiCrikkit]

Super exciting to hear this ... Really excellent stuff. I can't find the right words how good this is. Thank you

[@seggism]

This was a really fun one that made me smile a lot with your interactions and subject matter.. It was bringing Robert Anton Willsons model agnosticism to mind at the end there which was a sliding scale of belief in all models. I need to watch through again to try and let all that sink in, it felt very rich.

[@georgeselias2133]

Such a good conversation

[@dalibofurnell]

Its interesting to think that each person who engaged in this had a different experience, but yet can to some degree agree that this was a good conversation. It's cool to share in different ways on multiple levels with various perspectives yet can focus enough to recognize that this is just a conversation between Mark and John that they had and decided to share. Multi aspectual intellectual talk, with good energy which I'd always something great to see. I'm grateful that you both had this wonderful moment in which you seemed to have gained much joy. Much respect for you both. This was high info stack to digest for a talk. Breathe ❤

[@leedufour]

Thanks Marc and John!

[@johnvervaeke]

Thanks Lee.

[@gettingtogive]

Incredible conversation guys. The part on mindfulness really clarified something I had been struggling with, I can’t thank you both enough 👏👏👏

[@Hyumanity]

Holy fuck, I think - that was amazing. I will be listening to this on repeat for awhile. Thank you, sincerely!

[@stephaniecarducci]

Taking a machine learning course right now. Excited that my interests are converging!

[@ramyafennell4615]

Awesome finale...yayy...Ramana Maharshi...the spiritual journey is a quest...always ask who..? What?

[@lenavoyles526]

“All we are is stacks of beliefs.” Hello, Carl Jung, pleased to meet you and your Collective Unconscious.

[@projectmalus]

My relevance realization is the knowledge built up here will be a tool for therapists. They will use it to help people adjust to a new economy, to shed the baggage left by this one. The new neighborhood will be embedded in nature, with natural materials because they feel so nice. This is important. Intuitively I see an inner world or rose, an outer world like a bigger rose and the person as a conduit between. Each of these three has give and take, so 2^3 interactions. The inner and outer worlds when balanced in the give and take, help the flow of experience thru the conduit, and the person give and take either allows or controls, both actions with allowing being an active non-action. Materials like plastic reduce interaction, not taking and only giving. It reduces my ability to give. Addictions feed false power and when gone, the person feels weak. This is because the person is weakened from lessened interaction, and the effect of getting back more than what was given up, is a return to this natural, balanced interaction power.

[@waynemcmillan5970]

Thank you John and Mark , your work is so interesting and valuable.

[@sheilaeisele8490]

Wonderful! Wonderful! Yet, again, wonder-full!

[@EnemyOfEldar]

Thank you so much John and Mark. What an awesome privilege it must be to work with one's own former student in this way. You are what aspire to grow beyond.

[@EnemyOfEldar]

And I want to add that I am paraphrasing Yoda and mean that the greatest teacher's student grows with and beyond the teacher. Or least, it's a nice sentiment.

[@gunterappoldt3037]

@@EnemyOfEldar Master Kông (孔夫子) already said in the "Lúnyû" (Discourses) that this would be the basic ratio of good, accomplished teaching in the service of realizing a knowledge that is highly unbiased---here in the sense of truely following the Way (道) of the Heaven (天)---: that students should surpass their masters. Isaac Newton [?] spoke of the "dwarfs on the shoulders of giants". So, Master Yoda had some quite famous spiritual-intellectual ancestors.

[@tracik1277]

@@gunterappoldt3037 Parents do it all the time. (I hasten to add, not all parents).

[@gunterappoldt3037]

@@tracik1277, yes, agree. They tend to follow the "principle of hope", as the philosopher Ernst Bloch might have put it.

[@tracik1277]

@@gunterappoldt3037 Perhaps in some purposive ways, yes, but I was alluding to the fact that it's an instinctual process, largely unconscious, and goes on whether it is recognised as such or not. These processes have happened throughout the evolution of humans, they are part of the function of the human. It is the aberrations of society which hinder and disrupt this natural process, hence not all parents in modern society allow it to occur naturally.

[@OscarGolph]

:) The talk is exciting in its passion. thanks guys, time well used for me.

[@adrianvj5552]

The content here is so powerful and useful. Could this be done for the high school level? I think kids need to hear this but in a way that allows them access to this wisdom.

[@_ARCATEC_]

Next level high value content 💓 Thanks . WoW I'm feeling pretty synchronised with your work , right now it's the 4E of Cogsci. The breadth of which has only been approachable over the last few weeks , now giving an opportunity to conceptualise a 6th dimension agency May be as with the 4th utilising the creation of a methodological simulacra of quintessence . And we're only 58sec in 😂.

[@bigpicsoccer]

Really enjoyed this! I think there are big questions about how FEP links to various camps in philosophy of mind. Sometimes I think Friston wants to straddle the fence. Personally I feel predictive processing brings in philosophical problems related to information, content, models etc and I prefer prospective control (turvey's strong anticipation). Great project though! Would love to hear more from you two

[@gunterappoldt3037]

I see a basic conflict, resp. contradiction, inside the approach, that is: between "machine-thinking" and "useless thinking", as already thematized inside the classic Daoist book of Master Zhuang (庄子; i.e., especially, the talk between Master Kông and a farmer, who prefers the Daoist, "naturalistic/primitive" way of watering plants), which M. Heidegger ("Sciences don´t think!") might have known via the translation into German by Richard Wilhelm (while an earlier attempt at translating-interpretating this "Holy Scripture" was started by James Legge in Scotland, with the aid of the Chinese scholar Wáng Tao). By the way, there are at least two "wings" of phenomenology as "strict science" (No Lyssenkow-ism, as during the era of Stalin-style "socialism", or the like!): static phenomenology and genetic phenomenology; and Hermann Schmitz, for example, proposed a new structural phenomenology as a necessary complement, to keep pace with newer developments in sciences and society. P.S.: Buddhism doesn´t seem to be of one mould, neither in theory nor practice---which explains the many fights inside the "house of Buddha" over orthodoxies/-practices and heterodoxies/-practices, not to mention the many castigations of external "heresies". What we encounter, seem rather to be "layers of paradigms" (Hans Küng). However, there seems to be, at least, one "general horizon" (Edmund Husserl) built into the system, so to speak: "Vital space-time", appearing on the "clearing of being" (Martin Heidegger), stands up against the ultimate beyond of so called "Nirwana". Buddhism, basically, seems to be some kind of inverted Kâlavâda in the classical sense, that is: "Time is the absolute Overlord!", versus: "The Dharma of awakening-insight-liberation is the total antithesis or, at least, timely antidote!". But, that are my personal hermeneutics and heuristics... Thanks for sharing.

[@Matterful]

Wow! I need to watch that again.

[@danynata9337]

Same. I guess I'll have to rewatch this a couple of times

[@ErnestoEduardoDobarganes]

I looked for Mark's twitter... I couldn't find him. Otra excelente conversación !

[@vicaba02]

That’s awesome.

[@The_Quota_Official]

Please have a conversation with Mark Lewis next if you can!

[@johnvervaeke]

Great idea!

[@lenavoyles526]

“You have to have valence turned on… in order to be free of it.” Wait! Are we sure we want to be totally free of valence? If the entire existence of life on earth is a product of valence, are we sure we want to be free of it? Could there be such a thing as “too much freedom from valence”?

[@akh825]

Love you guys !

[@shamanverse]

Perception is Conception. I experience an open spaciousness that is filled with the presence of love and is in co creation with all things. That AI beat the Go Master is Perfect Zen.

[@matt999ish]

Pure gold!

[@lenavoyles526]

Is the implication that Buddhist monks are MORE sensitive to their emotions than the average person?

[@TheCreativeintelligence]

Waveform update

[@domenicmolinaro6580]

This really "opened me up" beginning around the time of the discussion about superlative loss of self! Is the "deepest level" of the transparency/opacity shift within predictive processing machinery is the "realization" of a fundamental holism or non-duality?

[@jgarciajr82]

This was inspiring 🙂.

[@nathanfisher9386]

This is super cool, thank you. Anyone have helpful resources for the 'differences which make a difference' that exist between the active inference/predictive coding paradigm and other 4E cog sci paradigms? this dialogue makes it seem that they are totally convergent while I know there has been considerable debate and pushback from some in the Enactive camps against the predictive framework

[@AerisVEphelia]

wow wow wow.

[@lightwavelogicvideos2394]

I can't find back the paper (on schizotypy and autism) John is talking about at 30:52. What is the title?

[@alextilley8323]

Lookup John Vervaeke, Brett Anderson and Mark Miller + autism.

[@evanblackie7510]

Having been in both states of seeing the ego structure as not being primary in Buddhist mindfulness/emptiness states, and also depersonalisation states accompanied by strong anxiety, detachment I have been curious that the perspectival sense of depersonalisation is accurate when looking at how ego, society is constructed- so perhaps it is lacking the gluey connection of the participatory that is afforded by the relative calm awareness of Buddhist no-self, emptiness. Is the participatory connection the sign of predictive self modelling in dynamic coupling with the world and truer/better in this sense than just perspectival awareness of self structure.

[@evanblackie7510]

Great conversation by the way, thanks 😊

[@piddlepond]

Is it possible that pattern recognizing technologies that the organism has inherited or discovered never go away and live somewhere in the organism’s neural activities, playing a tiny part of the overall music of remembrance, just like technologies that humans have created never leave existence and are always available some place on the earth ready to be reinvigorated if necessary? Might they be responses to the encounter with the arena as well as mutant conjectural pattern recon gestures?

[@Russianninja956]

I feel a little late to this party but the profundity of the reciprocal opening and the transformative understanding of knowledge and moreover wisdom is a great comfort and exhilarating to be alive in this time and place. Thank you both very much.

[@andreyrussian2480]

the best rest is a change of activity - impossible in machine learning))

[@NothingTheGreat]

47:48

[@merlepatterson]

Summary is no replacement for detail.

[@yankous]

That was amazing! So many things coming together! My mind feels less fragmented now ;-)