Jonathan Blow on the "Stack"

[@saniancreations]

"you shouldn't be proud of how much poop is in your pants" -Jonathan Blow I'm gonna bring that one up in conversations from now on, more people need to hear this wisdom.

[@HuntersHunter]

"People think it's okay to say like 'The Stack'." he's so funny

[@feralaca123]

I wish I could have the time to stop the ball and learn how things work at a lower level, but I'm a web developer and they keep adding things to "the stack", lol. Jokes aside, listening to Jon helped me to appreciate simplicity and to strive for efficiency.

[@boomras4716]

Disregard whatever new nonsense is being promoted on a "stack". Learn the low-level stuff and it will help you immensely and save you a lot of time. (Not to mention it pays a hell of a lot more)

[@franklu2297]

Unless you have to, just don't worry about it. Blow works in Gaming, an extremely narrow field, and has so many fanatic fans he thinks every thought he has is gold. This fucker talks a lot of shit for someone who uses emacs(bloated as shit editor) to write his JAI compiler that relies on LLVM. Engineering is all about abstraction. You shouldn't worry about the details of a lower level unless you have to. He is forced to worry about memory/instruction level details because they significantly effect the performance of his games, so he pays attention to them. I don't ever see him complaining about x86-64 architecture, or how specific circuit structures affect stability timing, or how to improve with the way we deal with quantum tunneling. Computers are built about layers and layers of abstraction before a single line of binary can be run. BTW, if you really are curious about how computers work, "Computer Systems: A Programmer's Perspective", "Operating Systems: Three Easy Pieces", "Compilers: Principles, Techniques, and Tools" will cover basically all general knowledge about a computer a general programmer would be expected to know.

[@vornamenachname594]

@@boomras4716 I don't think many places would allow you to deviate that way. Companies don't want you to do low level code, they want you to do low code, or at least know (work with) the stack. That's where the money is, unfortunately. You can go solo dev, though.

[@qizhang5749]

@@vornamenachname594 I imagine companies wouldn't be too please if I had to build my own database, os, and web server everytime they need a new API

[@mattoubatou]

It's really easy. Just start learning C and make stuff in your spare time. It's really fun and very eye opening to see how simple it can be once you get over having to manage memory yourself. It is very liberating to not use libraries too. It will improve how you approach coding in JS/Java/C# whatever your poison is 😅

[@Mike.Garcia]

he's from an era were good software was lean and mean, not big and poop

[@spicynoodle7419]

what's so wrong about a 3GB Electron PDF viewer?

[@smileychess]

@@spicynoodle7419 - if you don’t have at least 64gb of ram, you don’t deserve to use my software.

[@theastuteangler]

@@smileychess *rent my software

[@litjellyfish]

What era do you mean? Please some year span

[@ilgibadominanto]

Fun fact, the whole video I thought he was referring to the stack as in the stack segment of a program. I thought the guy was making a weird question about jai and its stack usage? I've been really confused through all the video until I starting reading the comments...

[@azngoku666]

congratulations, that means you're part of the group that survives!

[@meanmole3212]

Same. Throughout my university studies I kept hearing about these terms like "backend coder" and "full stack development" and never really understood it all. Why can't you just say what the fuck you are working on like this: "I am programming graphical user interfaces on the web" or "I am programming a game using language x and tool y".

[@LinucNerd]

I thought he asked about the stack segment too, except I still don't get what the guy was referring to. Edit: Oh, I get it now...

[@boonman262]

People being proud of the amount of poop they have in their pant IS the current zeitgeist.

[@DEATHTRUTH]

javascript frameworks go brrr

[@spicynoodle7419]

become a fullstack rockstar today!

[@rayecast]

unfunny reddit memes go brrr

[@4.0.4]

Someone please ask him if Jai can run in the Cloud(tm) and handle Big Data.

[@marcellmonteirocruz2475]

I heard it has integrated blockchain technology

[@nuderedfinger]

@@marcellmonteirocruz2475 yep, he's adding native NFT support

[@siddhartamorionsuarez9017]

Running on the cloud is literally running on a server, so every language with an average network lib can easily do It, and handling Big Data is literally Data Science so it has nothing to do with the language really, so It can.

[@Spiderboydk]

Every developer should be a full stack developer. If one thinks that is unrealistic or unreasonable, well, there's the problem with the stack.

[@Triumph263]

It might make sense to become particularly skilled with one area of the "stack" but the idea of only understanding and being able to work with one portion of software you are supposed to work with is absurd. If you work on a game where you aren't working on the engine source code directly you should still understand how the rendering pipeline works. It would be like a mechanic only expecting to have to know how to change tires, or a chef only knowing how to cook the food currently on their menu that they are directly responsible for. Specialization is useful but it isn't the objective of learning.

[@Sydra.]

@@Triumph263 That was 20 years ago. Software development now is at least 10 different professions, with different paradigms, languages, tooling, focus, etc. There are only partial overlaps between them. The knowledge base is so big and dynamic that you can learn only 5-10% of that in your lifetime. If you have a big software project you have to hire people with different skills. The push for full stack developers is just the result of developer shortage on the market.

[@rektifyr...]

@@Sydra. I don't think anyone's saying you need to be skilled in every part of the stack™, but if you're gonna build on top of something you need to, at least in theory, understand what's going on underneath. Computers haven't changed that much in 20 years.

[@nhanimaah786]

@@Sydra. 10? Software development is like 40 different professions. Lol

[@SpazeDJ]

lol

[@ChaosPootato]

What a brilliant analogy... I think

[@Nikonowincolour]

"I'm not sure that's a great analogy either" LOL

[@GodOfMacro]

very shitty analogy, but I liked it haha

[@junosoft]

very shitty for sure.

[@theodenking169]

I poop my Stack all the time

[@darkfuji196]

Hiring- Full heap developer

[@chrisc7265]

required minimum 17 poops in pants

[@octobrain23232]

Gotta love J. Blows fecal analogies.

[@SimGunther]

The only stacks I need are: 0. Index cards filled with smart notes 1. Stack data struct in my stack of C programs 2. Stack of pancakes/waffles for breakfast QQ for the "full stack developers": have they written a device driver? If not, they're not officially a "full stack developer".

[@Flackon]

Under what authority?

[@ilyabykov2437]

Not sure about the third one.

[@flip4119]

@@Flackon Me. I said so.

[@sagitswag1785]

@@ilyabykov2437 that's the only one I'm sure about

[@MrLordFireDragon]

I don't understand the final point. Do full stack developers have to program operating systems and microprocessors too? Do your programs require people to use custom peripherals that require custom drivers to run? Someone being a 'full stack developer' is simply an expression of proficiency in areas that require separate training and competencies to perform - someone can be an expert front end designer and not know how to build a relational database, a full stack developer knows how to do both competently. Say what you want about 'the stack' being awful - it is awful - but redefining perfectly reasonable terms to denigrate a genre of programmer is strange to me.

[@dola8305]

I didn't know you could stack shit that high.

[@earthian2777]

The poop analogy made me Burst

[@dukereg]

"The Stack"? 'Round these parts we call it "a giant wobbling tower of faff and bullshit". Must be a dialect thing.😉

[@theb1rd]

full-stack developer = full-pants pooper

[@xaf15001]

I think the stack is good for quickly onboarding people in. Software development is vast, using a stack limits you down. But at the same time it does limit you down a lot.

[@jonny__b]

It's really just a term people use for the multiple layers of a distributed system. A lot of games have a front end and back end, hence a software stack. But I agree with the sentiment that the sentence was weird - "where does the language fit in the stack" is nonsensical, because it's agnostic to its position in the stack of layers making up a system, however I think it's a convenient term to use (if a little confusing)

[@GonziHere]

Well, the issue is that the language is handling the full stack, so to speak. not like with webdev, where you can have several languages and technologies fighting each other all the time and most of the work is in the wiring inbetween the layers.

[@hasen_judi]

"the stack" is a layers of platforms that sit on top of each other where each layer is fragile and can break in random ways and the whole stack is just shit to deal with.

[@SeanDS89]

What is this... "the stack" he is referring to? I'm so confused lol

[@Spiderboydk]

The stack is the *entire* list of software needed to run your application, ranging from low level software like BIOS/UEFI, the operating system and device drivers, all up to runtime libraries, virtual machines, web browser with a JavaScript interpreter.

[@meanmole3212]

​@@Spiderboydk Here's a fun game you may want to try. Go tell Jon that in order to run your application, you need virtual machines, web browser and a a JavaScript interpreter.

[@MalushJ]

@@Spiderboydk what about the network stack?

[@RussTeeTrombone]

There’s fewer and fewer people In this rotten industry that share opinions with Mr Blow and we’re all far worse off for it

[@h3xon797]

I only talk about the stack while playing Magic: The Gathering.

[@nonefvnfvnjnjnjevjenjvonej3384]

thats a highly offensive suggestion.. lmao

[@danielgrizzlus3950]

i have no fucking idea what's being talked about, to me there's just the stack in memory, perhaps the data structure and i don't see how that would have anything to do with languages?

[@rbrasch101]

From someone else's comment I think it's like the technologies that make up the software, like the web has a stack where there are all these segregated technologies, and you can't make a game without having a stack. That's what I reckon.

[@razveck]

Different pieces of software working together. People call it a stack because usually it's visualized as a vertical, layered thing, going from lower level to higher level, or from backend to frontend for instance. It's an extremely popular concept in an development and had given birth to the job of "full stack programmers", programmers who can develop across the whole pipeline

[@danielgrizzlus3950]

@@rbrasch101 ah, alright. had me confused

[@brunovaz]

@@razveck 99% of the times, those full stack programmers can't work on the whole stack

[@OmegaF77]

@@rbrasch101 How does a game have a stack? I though web dev only uses stacks?

[@chudchadanstud]

The stack needs to be on the heap.

[@torgo_]

but, hypothetically, if I were to poop my pants.. at what level would my poop be inserted into the layers?

[@Flackon]

So, what is the alternative to replace the stack?

[@smileychess]

Two decades of slogging through low level computer science concepts, so you can be a big boy like John.

[@Flackon]

@championchap That's where development is heading towards, in broad trends, so I don't get the animosity. Unless he means that the market should adopt leaner technologies faster in which case, I agree but, good luck influencing that...

[@JohnSmith-ox3gy]

@@smileychess Only 15 more years and I can be like the chose one!

[@kipu44]

Heap. 😜

[@Muskar2]

@@smileychess Two decades? With the right mentorship and/or perseverance you could learn how to write Jai/Odin/C within a few weeks/months and then spend a few more months to learn how to read papers and documentation so you can implement anything that already exists. That's already enough to drastically simplify "The Stack™". I know because that's what I did, and I'm no genius. And just last week I replaced 100k LOC (a small chain of libraries) with 80 LOC, with same functionality (and far less fault cases) but now anyone can understand it. It pays dividends to understand what's required to solve the problems you have, instead of just assuming it'll be best to use middleware.

[@SianaGearz]

Reggie Watts has a song about it.

[@cdarklock]

At least we have a stack and not a heap

[@myungkeon]

what stack is he talking about?

[@JonDoe-uq1mk]

The Stack

[@toffeethedev]

Before universal engines, most videogames had a "stack", like Havoc physics and whatever! Glad it's been phased out into one solid program now, I wonder if the web stack would end up the same..

[@razveck]

But the engines internally still have a stack. But game engine stacks aren't necessarily what Jon is referring to

[@idklol4197]

screaming 'based' at my laptop while i listen to this

[@junosoft]

So the "stack" means shit. Gotcha.

[@5Gazto]

Being a full-stack developer is impossible, considering new, fancy, updated, surpassing frameworks appear every month from different people around the world.

[@sagitswag1785]

You know that you don't need to shove every one of those frameworks into you project right? Thats like saying that you cant be a painter because the acrylic industry keeps releasing new colors all the time, but you dont realise that you can just use primary colors and make your own paints...

[@tiranito2834]

nowadays it's literally impossible as ML and training AI language models is now considered by HR to be part of "full stack"... so yeah lmao, we live in an era where nothing makes sense anymore and everyone needs to know a little bit of everything to be able to half ass their way to a job. Such cool times!

[@thetrolley]

stool, not tools

[@IgnacioRoca]

Is more of a steaming pile of shit rather than a stack

[@adamhenriksson6007]

Nice thumbnail

[@marusdod3685]

Its like webshitters make their jobs more complex than they need to be on purpose

[@VladyslavPavliuk]

I love my pants =)

[@InternetVegetable8541]

I really dislike this modern usage of the term "stack". Seems like its was coined by a bunch of project managers who used to hear "stack" being used around them by assembly coders in college back in the 80s, but didn't have the technical background to understand what they were talking about.

[@marcusrehn6915]

This dude needs better problems

[@djbanizza]

With stacks, you always insert on the top, dummy :)

[@smileychess]

Without the stack, we would have a small handful of high quality software and that’s it. The stack has enabled tons of innovation and tools that make millions of lives better. Sure, it’s not ideal, but nothing in life is.

[@catsby9051]

The vast majority of software does not improve lives at all. In a lot of cases, it actually reduces the quality of life of the user.

[@smileychess]

@@catsby9051 And yet millions of lives have still been improved by other software.

[@elijahbuscho7715]

Lets not deny the reality that we have stacks of technology. Why does he presume the asker is somehow proud that we have stacks, and not just accepting the fact that we do? I feel like Jon loves to assume everyone is a dumbass.

[@nickrett4221]

You just don't get this sense of humor. The "Stack" is business buzzword, not unlike "Synergy" or "Paradigm shift", etc.

[@elijahbuscho7715]

@@nickrett4221 These are all meaningful words. The words are often misused by people who don't know what they mean and say them to sound smart, which is cringe. But they are only cringe when they are misused. I think stack was used appropriately in this instance, and doesn't warrant ridicule. Dude could have said, "how does it fit in with all the other technologies that you are using?" but why be unnecessarily verbose?

[@nickrett4221]

It's not about misuse of words. Stack is business term that promotes unhealthy worldview, and Jon gets offended by the suggestion he has same priorities as managers or web developers. Yet he knows he'll have to "fit in" as you say, so he has an urgent need to relieve the distress.

[@elijahbuscho7715]

@@nickrett4221 So basically he wants to make sure everyone knows he's "not like the other programmers" lol. I think that makes sense, but personally I think it's some cringe ego shit. He can distinguish himself enough with his ideas. I don't think he needs this sort of terminology elitism. I wish Jon would just spare the rant when asked an otherwise coherent and interesting question.

[@nickrett4221]

@@elijahbuscho7715 That gist isn't funny unless you realize Jon's right despite looking wrong. Yes, the dude's question was correct, and Jon's answer was amusingly non-politically-correct, and yet modern IT is indeed marketing-driven shithouse with cool terms made up to disguise ugly aspects (that could probably be fixed if they were exposed). If you don't appreciate all this, you'll only see a ranting man instead of tragicomedy.

[@arcuscerebellumus8797]

Cringeing about "the stack" aside, isn't asking this question akin to asking "where the tool inserts itself into a product it helps to build"? Like, where does a hammer insert itself into a table? Makes very little sense to me :| Or am I missing something?

[@Johnny-ww9ks]

I lolled

[@monad_tcp]

Its a shitty analogy, mr Johnathan

[@Ratstail91]

Apparently, Jai is so amazing it can replace every tool in the dev's toolbelt. Blow's ego is irredeemable.