Jonathan Haidt and Musa al-Gharbi in Conversation

[@alansteeler]

Peter Turchin should be duly cited for the issue of overproduction of elites, which forms part of al-Gharbi's thesis. “In End Times: Elites, Counter-Elites, and the Path of Political Disintegration, Turchin offers a lucid and elegant theory that is stable across time and place in the manner of natural laws and scientific findings.” -Wall Street Journal

[@musaal-gharbi583]

Jack Goldstone pioneered the idea before Turchin, who helped formalize it. The book absolutely does very explicitly name and engage with both of their work (and others in this arena). But you can't include tons of footnotes in conversations, alas.

[@timrichardson518]

Agree, this is not his idea of elite overproduction. Turchin popularized the concept.

[@alansteeler]

@@musaal-gharbi583 Yesm you're absolutely correct-- on both accounts.

[@rizzletron]

Love the elite overproduction conceptualization. I first came across it in the "crisis of democracy" (Written by Samuel Huntington) framework diagnosing 1960s activism.

[@ballybubba-d4e]

@@musaal-gharbi583 you know a true scholar, when they are willing to give credit even in youtube comments. King!

[@technikalhr]

interesting and brilliant conversation and compel one to think on the agenda being discussed. Although here in India, the issue is not aggravated but still feel wise to give thought to. Thanks for sharing

[@tomsamek2936]

Heterodox Academy: Your time has come!

[@EmperorsNewWardrobe]

6:48 my grammar-disciplined dad would be elated to hear this

[@PlasticSausages]

Yes, indeed! A superlative doesn’t need a modifier.

[@JOHN----DOE]

Snort. You expect someone at HARVARD, Ground Zero for plagiarism, to CITE you?!

[@noahhayes5058]

No v

[@22221mm]

When you buy into the lies so easily.

[@annakortukov2845]

A hour well spent, thank you gentlemen! Makes me anxious though to think about how my own child will cope with the screen addiction when time will come.

[@i.m.gurney]

Not for this session I agree, but I would love for us to expand the focus of review out from mobile phone & console computing (dumb computing) & social media, to include the effects of fully fledged home/personal computing on society.

[@i.m.gurney]

Receptive computing & generative computing, a continuance of a two tiered society.

[@listener523]

I doubt you would see much. Or to the degree you did it would be among those who use computers and social media. I come at this as an early adopter. When people say "without section 230 we wouldn't have social media etc etc"? I remember that time. Yes there was language the we would now consider hate crimes. But overall the internet was a less horrible place.

[@ywtcc]

it wasn't that long ago, education was largely publicly funded, and we didn't seem to have an "elite overproduction" problem. Something about adding debt to the activity seems to have both inflated the price, and created a bubble. If employers aren't reimbursing, and the debts become burdensome, word travels to the next generation of students, parents and educators. Is this elite overproduction? Or are we just worried about costs? Or trying to make sure our next generation are in employment every possible minute? Keep debt in the background of your social theories, and see if there aren't a lot of coincidences...

[@listener523]

Its very interesting to me that years of academic study can, in gifted individuals, lead to a more erudite description of what and plumber in a MAGA hat could have told you years ago.

[@spicole2937]

U need trades workers not phd

[@ChrisAthanas]

Academia needs to crash to 10% of its current size And will look very different by 2035, they did it to themselves

[@ywtcc]

American businesses typically don't negotiate with their workers. Consequence is they're not reimbursing the cost of education. Overproduction is a function of the labor market, and there's a number of factors there. There is no market unless both buyers and sellers have legal protections to encourage fair negotiation, and arrival at a price. If you're going to allow your businesses to be this poorly regulated when it comes to engaging with the labor market, you're never going to arrive at a fair price for the cost of education. It's a function of your business and political leadership, that apparently don't understand much about business except to turn it into fraudulence. Second world business regulation is creating a second world economy. Among other factors.

[@H.Hardrada]

There is truth to what you say, but I respectfully disagree. If we are going to lead the world and keep our technological edge over our adversaries, it won't be done by creating more plumbers. We need a lot more STEM powerhouses at the grad and post-grad levels.

[@ChrisAthanas]

@@H.Hardrada stem is not automatic innovation Without the culture of investment for reasonable returns becomes normal again we will see the culturally extensive practices continue unabated

[@H.Hardrada]

@@ChrisAthanas Sure, it doesn't automatically equate to innovation, but there is no innovation without it. Things are moving fast, and keeping up is paramount. In the current geopolitical climate, which could arguably be considered Cold War 2, maintaining a competitive technological edge will ensure we are free of economic and physical coercion from encroaching foreign powers.

[@rebeccashelton3552]

Musa needs to have more courage to say who are those elites over produced

[@00TheD]

Doesn't matter in 10 years they are replaced. It means too much college. Not a specific group.

[@musaal-gharbi583]

The book does go into the changing composition of the elite, and how that changes the character of how elite overproduction plays out. Just didn't have an opportunity to unpack all that kind of stuff in this conversation.

[@rebeccashelton3552]

@@musaal-gharbi583 Thanks! This is a really important aspects that could determine who would lead this country in the future, and where it may go. Looking forward to reading the book and understand your perspectives.

[@darlafitzpatrick8770]

Dude at 1:00:45 could have asked his question using 85% fewer words

[@00TheD]

Question:would it ever be appropriate to shout down a speaker of the house? I postulate the answer is yes which means its always appropriate. Maybe we should focus on understanding why instead of simple mindedly casing actions as inherently good or bad based on how it affects the politicians or institutions.

[@anhumblemessengerofthelawo3858]

Everything the ego perceives is a separate whole, without the relationships that imply being. The ego is thus against communication, except insofar as it is utilized to establish separateness rather than to abolish it. The communication system of the ego is based on its own thought system, as is everything else it dictates. Its communication is controlled by its need to protect itself, and it will disrupt communication when it experiences threat. This disruption is a reaction to a specific person or persons. The specificity of the ego’s thinking, then, results in spurious generalization which is really not abstract at all. It merely responds in certain specific ways to everything it perceives as related. In contrast, Spirit reacts in the same way to everything it knows is true, and does not respond at all to anything else. Nor does it make any attempt to establish what is true. It knows that what is true is everything that God created. It is in complete and direct communication with every aspect of creation, because it is in complete and direct communication with its Creator. This communication is the Will of God. Creation and communication are synonymous. A Course In Miracles (1975) Author: _Jesus Christ_

[@spicole2937]

1953 NESCO APnet teaching this since53

[@theelderskatesman4417]

An "awokening"🤔

[@Tjonny1000]

All intolerance and conformity starts with the Spanish Inquistion and continues with various forms of Protestantism that either lean Baptist or Mainline Puritan.

[@alexmckenzie8491]

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

[@kell_checks_in]

Maybe after you're dead. Before that, you just get called names and lose your job/audience/contract.

[@murraylove]

Of course you an tell the right from the left on this issue.

[@RayG817]

Yes, there are clear agendas in play, but people like Haidt want to act like they are above such things.

[@adrianarchie]

@@RayG817 he is bigoted against republicans.

[@ellieveganphilly-7335]

This is the heterodox academy? The irony.🥱

[@22221mm]

David Brooks boo

[@GardenerGeorge]

I had high hopes for the one hour I spent on this conversation , but I did not hear much of substance . Two nice guys , very bright …. But were they saving the meat of the sandwich so we buy their books ? Only concrete thing I heard was Haidt ‘s well cooked theme that phones and social media especially are negatively impacting childhood development, and by extension , Universities and Society . I found Haidt ‘s proposition that as wealthy elites buy his book and start demanding phone free classes in their private schools , and then that behavior trickles down to the middle and lower class … A little self important to put it mildly … Musa al- Gharbi was eloquent and charismatic but I did not hear enough of his hypothesis to really have a strong impression of its significance. Most of all .. if we are indicting “ woke “ as an unhealthy intolerance born of mental frailty … Where was the balance in that analysis ? I am about Haidt ‘s age and have two college age children . While I scratch my head at the gender fluidity and pronouns , I do give their generation credit for recognizing injustice when they see it , and demanding better . I think the current protests about Palestine are a result of that sensitivity - and I see that as a good thing . Being idealistic and coming into the world with the naïveté to think you can change it - That is intrinsic in youth .

[@jamessmith5433]

Then you’re smarter than I am. The issues are not new to educated people, but the fine points and depth of understanding was rare

[@GardenerGeorge]

⁠​⁠@@jamessmith5433 Thanks for the response . Not sure if thats a serious or facetious “ smarter “ comment , but either way I doubt it explains our different responses . Maybe it was a problem of expectations - mine being too high for what is possible to glean in one quick hour . I spent time on this because I was looking for an intelligent discussion of what is going on in our society - hopefully with no agenda other than discerning truth . I had recently forced myself to listen through a conservative think tank discussion on defeating “ woke “ forces in society , and I thought it was full of vague fear mongering and misrepresentation of reality . So I was looking for some in depth intelligent description of where we are and why . My original comment details my disappointment .

[@onedroprule]

I have a feeling that one time Haidt tried to use the n-word, got called out, and he's never gotten over it. 😂

[@jamessmith5433]

That is an embarrassingly shallow and uninformed opinion. Congratulations

[@AP-pk6mk]

Facts lol

[@RayG817]

Jonathan Haidt is the typical spoiled rich kid who gets superficially into easter religion and sees himself as full of Zen wisdom.

[@NJIT22]

You are deluded 😊

[@RayG817]

@@NJIT22 How so?

[@ProlixParalysis]

​@@RayG817Because Jonathan Haidt is among the top social psychologists of our time, probably top 5. His 'moral foundations theory' has effectively figured out how and why people on different regions in a political spectrums think. So he does know what he's talking about but why don't you, some rando on a KZbin comments section, reductively throw epithets at him, I'm sure you'll convince people.

[@ChrisAthanas]

If they are so elite, why are things so Fucked yo

[@RayG817]

@@ProlixParalysis Haidt has a history of espousing lazy theories to get attention, and then having to backtrack. Here are a couple examples: (1) He got famous for complaining when university students booed crazy speakers like Milo Yannopoulas off the stage. And he accused universities of abridging the free speech of Milo, and similar speakers, if they refused to allow them on campus. But later he took it back, and agreed that isn’t a free speech issue and that universities have the right not to invite “provocateurs.” (2) He often complained that students were too hung about about supposed racial injustice, saying liberals should "find something more bracing to adhere to." But when George Floyd was killed, he joined the chorus of "liberals" saying that America still has many serious, unresolved racial issues. (3) He famously talked about millennials as if they were all mentally ill, calling them hyper-sensitive snowflakes.( It turns out that his opinion was response to being challenged in class about his opinions mentioned above.) He has since reversed this stance, as well. His beliefs are the result of growing up in a very privileged environment where faced no sexism, racism, poverty, etc., which made him a spoiled snowflake.

[@adrianarchie]

Communism same shit different day.

[@ChucksExotics]

New problems same stupid diagnosis: "It's communism" What is happening now isn't anything close to communism. Calling everything communism is just as dumb as leftists calling everything "fascism."

[@onedroprule]

What exactly do you think is Communist here?

[@adrianarchie]

@@onedroprule communist conflict theory replaced with new conspiracy theories about inequality. CRT=Race Marxism

[@davidwilkie9551]

In the aspiring hetrodoxy of synergistic academia, the synthesis of an adaptive curriculum that replaces rote heirachical authoritarian dictates.., well this is the problem... Or what has always been, always will be. If blow your effective rote learned vernacular out of your brain, it might take a while to find an appropriate metastable replacement knowledge that works in the chosen context, this is what the search for truth as a democratic/philosophical consensus might become again.

[@spencerantoniomarlen-starr3069]

His name looks like Lisan al Gaib lol

[@michaelhelperin4425]

Well, sometimes ya need a voice from the outer world to point out what you didn't see for yourself.

[@ChollieD]

Herbert used a lot of Arabic in Dune.

[@spencerantoniomarlen-starr3069]

@michaelhelperin4425 plus Jonathan Haidt basically introduced him as a demi god tier talent.

[@Giantcrabz]

dumbest thesis ever

[@casteretpollux]

Bs..any discussion ignoring CIA culture ops is worthless.

[@timrichardson518]

Al-Garhbi believes universities are for “knowledge creation“ and other high minded functions. Actually, students who graduate with financially lucrative degrees and credentials, like physicians, attorneys and engineers, go on to become bureaucrats, for the most part. Yes, a Physician is a bureaucrat. A very tiny minority may become entrepreneurs and create new business value. Quit selling students this academic BS that they are at University to create new knowledge .

[@ywtcc]

Physicians create a huge amount of business value. We're going to automate your businesses. Your workers aren't the ones being replaced this time. Business owners are bureaucrats, their role is ownership, which is a way of saying that they are in a political relationship with the government. You're going to have to refine your bizarre ideas about business. What kind of job do you have? Sitting around collecting free rents and lying about it? That's usually the behavior that's being concealed with this business owner as job creator idea you have.

[@jamessmith5433]

A very short sighted post. People go to universities to find the best that is known about certain subjects. And the Best changes over time. That’s what teachers/professors do. Make and keep track of the changes. Is this process good for lawyers? You bet your ass it is. Societal knowledge grows

[@jamessmith5433]

A very short sighted post. People go to universities to find the best that is known about certain subjects. And the Best changes over time. That’s what teachers/professors do. Make and keep track of the changes. Is this process good for lawyers? You bet your ass it is. Societal knowledge grows

[@k.k.8394]

You would not even have the internet without publicly funded universities. That's where it was invented. That's why autocrats and those who finance and support them always come for academia and intellectuals first.

[@musaal-gharbi583]

Al-Gharbi doesn't believe that universities are primarily for knowledge production. He's published pieces talking about how they're primarily class reproduction systems... I'd add a link but I think they take down comments with links, so go to the Substack Symbolic Capital(ism) and search, "Education and Privilege Laundering." A key theme of his book is that educational institutions primarily serve as gatekeepers for the types of jobs you mentioned. And help legitimize the high pay, etc. that these workers receive. Elsewhere, al-Gharbi has noted that the vast majority of folks who go through educational institutions are primarily there for the credentials, mostly stopping once they get the BA and moving on to their careers. What al-Gharbi *did* say, in response to the question about when viewpoint diversity is valuable, is that viewpoint diversity is especially valuable when people are trying to produce knowledge, or teach, or learn. Knowledge production and dissemination is certainly a thing that happens in higher ed institutions. But it's not their primary purpose. Al-Gharbi, I would say, is somewhat famously *not* idealistic about these institutions.