The Inevitable Fall of the Enlightenment - with Benjamin Boyce

This is a repost of a discussion with Benjamin Boyce (‪@BenjaminABoyce‬) on the topic of the Enlightenment, rationalism and science, the problem of identity on the levels of the individual and the group, value hierarchies, authoritarianism, subsidiarity, love, and sacrifice.
This conversation happened after I had some disagreements with James Lindsay on Twitter (X) about the Enlightenment and authoritarianism.
My and Jordan Peterson’s research paper published through ARC.
Identity: Individual and the State versus the Subsidiary Hierarchy of Heaven: www.arc-research.org/research...
Original interview on Benjamin’s channel: • Authority & Authoritar...
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Join us for the Symbolic World Summit on Feb 29th, 2024. Learn more: thesymbolicworld.com/summit
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Timestamps:
00:00 - Coming up
00:56 - Intro music
01:21 - The frame of "Enlightenment"
04:41 - How to evaluate value hierarchies
11:24 - Authoritarianism is always possible
12:49 - How do you know if there's an imbalance?
16:09 - Reality's revenge against Enlightenment thinking
17:49 - The current "Christian nationalism"
20:00 - We are downstream from WW2
23:21 - What is subsidiarity?
23:27 - ARC essay
27:08 - I'm not an idealist
29:58 - Imposing "Christianity"
32:05 - The world is becoming religious again
34:41 - The only solution for the problem of identity
36:43 - How does Subsidiarity work?
43:18 - What is an individual? And what is love?
55:26 - Top-down imposition
01:01:24 - No one wins the culture war
01:05:03 - Where does transformation start?
01:06:52 - Compassion for the strange
01:10:01 - Benjamin's approach
01:11:03 - The purpose of sacrifice
01:15:55 - Sacrifice and love
01:17:31 - Ritualized sacrifice
01:20:19 - Projects
01:24:15 - Postmodern storytelling tools
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My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson.

[@JonathanPageau]

Join us for the Symbolic World Summit on Feb 29th, 2024. Learn more: thesymbolicworld.com/summit

[@theguyver4934]

Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )

[@Babs42]

@@theguyver4934Humans are hyper carnivores though.... why do you think animal fat is so revered in the OT?

[@SGH1111]

"It is through the personal transformation of people that the world is transformed" Perfect, absolutely, amen!

[@RunninUpThatHillh]

When one man changes the world is renewed.

[@mark4asp]

personal transformation of people towards what and away from what?

[@Keeronin]

The odds of James Lindsay getting mad at this video is 100%

[@maxfunk5773]

lol

[@Kolajer]

The odds he blocks anyone who sends him the video is 100%.

[@kbeetles]

So what? He is a smart guy but not a divine oracle......

[@OlympiaCHUD]

He’s too busy writing his next book “the metaphysics of no metaphysics“

[@sunbro6998]

Any Jonathan vid will do this.

[@tensevo]

Jonathan, I want to say, thank you for the work you do. It is exactly what I need, most weeks.

[@chdao]

Saint = Santo (in Spanish) which is translated as Holy in English. So the idea that you need to become holy to improve the world makes complete sense. It is clear that being unholy will absolutely not get us to a better place.

[@eyesee9715]

Really liked the metaphors for religious ritual JP gave in this interview…a family meal, a neighborhood potluck, a basketball game. The example of the soccer (baseball, basketball, etc.) player who seeks victory/glory not for himself as a disconnected solo individual who hogs the ball but as a team player…who shares the ball, passes it, assists, receives it…in the spirit of all for one and one for all…illustrates very well the ancient Christian (especially Eastern Orthodox Christian) meaning of personhood. As JP says, a person in communion of love with other persons, in synergy, in harmony, cooperatively, in service to the higher purpose. Orthodox Christianity perceives God as also a communion of love among the Father (which literally means Source) who is beyond apprehension, the Son (the Word through which the Father-Source speaks creation into being by His Breath (the Spirit). The 3 “Persons” are of one essence and inseparable. It was the Word (Logos-Meaning-Reason) who became part of creation, humanized, incarnate, in Jesus. Jesus spoke symbolically of giving his Spirit to his disciples so that they would become part of his Body and through him integrated into God (theosis) by grace and free will. There is no compulsion in the Gospel. Christianity cannot be imposed on anyone, whether by politics or law or any this-worldly means of power. Jesus said “my Kingdom is not of this world.” This world killed him. He overcomes through his resurrection and his Spirit abides in his people, his Body, his Church. When Christians try to impose this on anyone it contradicts the way of Jesus and fails. Imposition and coercion are inimitable to the Gospel of Christ which is an invitation to the Cross of Faith. As citizens of any nation Christians may vote their consciences of course. God mad humans free to choose, free to sin, and calls us to turn from sin and follow Christ in the way of sacrificial love for all, for the salvation of all. The Christian martyr, unlike the Muslim martyr, witnesses to the way of love through self offering in the manner of the one who was crucified on our behalf. A Christian martyr kills or harms no one. As far as religious toleration of others, there is an ancient Otthodox Christian example of this in the Monastery of St Catherine near Mt Sinai in Egypt. The monks and the Beduins have had a many centuries long cooperative friendly relationship with each other. There has been a mosque for the Beduins within the walls of the Orthodox monastery for centuries. For the most part, the Muslim authorities in Egypt have left the Christian monks live their lives. It’s extremists who disrupt things. As for the record of secularists /atheists on tolerance of differences, we have seen the examples of the Soviets, the Maoists, the Nazis, the Communists, and we are seeing the Wokists today. The problem of imposing power over others is a human problem, sin, and the best solution is repentance, metanoia, spiritual transformation, starting with oneself, as the saints following Christ have proven in history. It’s a free choice, to choose the way of self offering agape love which Jesus did and helps human beings do.

[@billbadson7598]

34:43 Most important part right here. Christ did not come to abolish the Law. The Law is necessary to expose you to your own sin (your own shortcomings/falling short). He wants you to understand how far short you fall, to acknowledge your sin, and to acknowledge that you do not have the power in yourself to stop sinning (to stop falling short, to be perfect in all things at all times). None of us have the power within us to be perfect in all things at all times. But keeping the narrow road in sight and working your way back onto it, or as close as you can get to it, is important. When you stop caring about the narrow road, when you throw away the Law, you're just wandering in the wilderness.

[@smashingtwoscoops4999]

Yess! Amen! God bless you. ☺🙏❤

[@madoffsbuttbuddy7106]

You pulled a Sunday school lesson out of thoroughly esoteric discourse. Perhaps a further delve would benefit. Maybe the relative insignificance of the nature of the law compared to the significance within the breadth of unity amongst a populous with any nature of law would be the step forward rather than your rehashing of the lessons countless children encounter every weekend.

[@madoffsbuttbuddy7106]

^^ I am not trying to make a bitter critique but rather a humble, loving challenge. I apologize if I have worded myself dissonant within that aim

[@isaiahkerstetter3142]

Perfection is possible, otherwise we would not be called to it. This is not a hypothetical. The Mother of God was sinless and obeyed the law without error but would not resurrect herself from the dead. Only her Son can do that.

[@CMA418]

But yet Jesus said, “So be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” To “be” is to “do”. It is an action. Not a belief, not a feeling, not a claim. He also said, “If you love me, you will obey my commands.” It’s possible many who are certain of their own salvation “through faith” have been misled.

[@redbeard0311]

How do you recognize if something is good or evil? Very simple actually. Matthew 7:16, "By their fruits you shall know them."

[@aprilhumen1229]

I use the “fruit test” all of the time!

[@stevennewberg9993]

This interview is one of your best. It is also mistitled. Boyce’s drive to make you positively state the essential thing makes it more about beginnings than an ending. God is good!

[@alexr.3504]

I loved this so much!! I’ve never listened to Benjamin Boyce before, but I do appreciate how he broke down Jonathan’s very metaphorical language and got to the core of his thinking. Absolutely wonderful discussion!!

[@EdStark22]

Boyce is a very good interviewer and extremely interesting. He has such an underrated channel.

[@caz4854]

Love has no feeling to it . Real love stabilizes you.

[@riggel8804]

I want to see The Symbolic World press publish a version of Silence the female knight. Probably doesn't fit with Snow White and Jack and the Bean Stock but maybe someday. A symphonic retelling of the Arthurian romance stories would be useful. Those stories haven't been told very well in modern times. Neil Gaimen did something cool with Norse Mythology. He retold those stories in a single narrative. That dude is Pageau's nemesis.

[@taliaflor]

Oh, I would so much like to see the Arthurian Legends by Pageau and Richard Rohlin.

[@owenfreeman5371]

Interesting conversation. At some points it even took on an almost adversarial tone, but Johnathan handled it with grace. At some points the two of them seem to be on different wavelengths; as Boyce puts it, Pageau is waxing “poetics”. I’d love to see the idea of the individual vs the person fleshed out more. Some interesting stuff there.

[@woodsonsanders1112]

Boyce seemed oddly neurotic to me in this video. I’m guessing this is because he struggles with the idea that there is actually a God. Would love to hear from someone that knows how he considers himself in this regard.

[@Charles3x7]

Yeah, when he accuse Jonathan of quoting poetry, it actually pissed me off. That’s a pet peeve of mine and reveals a lack of comprehension.

[@charlenecuenca4393]

Yeah and when he was like implying that Jonathan was imposing something seems odd and the hierarchical stage of saints and priest and normal people..if I understand it..

[@damiancayer2003]

Hello Mr. Pageau, I had a thought while you were mentioning that you meditated on St. Christopher, which was that you in some ways act in a similar manner. You have, in my opinion, helped/carried many people across the water to the other side, as did the Saint. And then this line popped into my head; "Whatsoever you do, to the least of my brothers, that you do unto Me". Make what you will of that, but felt compelled to add this to the comments incase you read them.

[@damiancayer2003]

On another note, have you ever thought of the similarities of the Golem myths to the structure and use of a company? In my mind, the body is constructed/fashioned in the the image of a man, and given life with a paper with magic words placed in its head. A company/golem can act very much like a man in a legal sense, and can have a spirit of a sort. It can be used for good or ill, and can sometimes get out of the control of its master/creator (corporate takeovers and the like), and run amok. It can be destroyed by the removal of the paper from its head, as a company would also be destroyed by the removal of its magic paper. I've often thought that many of our ills are caused by our corporate laws allowing our golems to be too powerful. The original use of distributing risk among investors isn't bad, but masters of golems sometimes use their golems as a shield or scapegoat to veil their nefarious actions or to take punishment that should rightfully be on the master(s) themselves.

[@chrisc7265]

This and Jonathan's appearance on Auron, coupled with The Distributist's latest essay covering the political angle have pretty much ruined the centrist liberal position Everything is made explicit now, James Lindsay can only block people and hope his boomer audience doesn't notice

[@estevaolopes2557]

I follow the distributist but somehow missed the essay you've mentioned. Is it here on yt?

[@mr.charlesharvey1582]

There are no individuals. There are persons. Persons, by nature, are in relationship with other persons. Benjamin should interview Christian Smith, of Notre Dame. His book "What is a person" is excellent.

[@carlbruno5181]

Appreciate the sophistry of men so young. Now, I'm much older and am firmly convinced that Enlightenment must be distributed from the source of Light. Jesus is the only one who claimed to BE the Light. Either He had a clear understanding of Himself or He was mistaken, which disqualifies Him from actually being Light. He's the ONLY one who points to Himself as Light. I agree that we can glean truth(light) from various quarters but the original and only source of light is Jesus, and that's what HE said. He also stated that those who came before and will come after are thieves and liars. Sounds exclusive to me. Gospel of John 1:4,5 "In Him was Life; and the Life was the LIGHT of men. And the Light shines in darkness; and the darkness cannot put it out." It's uplifting to see two handsome young men fixed on such noble intent. I hope they persevere and become instruments of the Enlightenment that comes only from the Enlightener. Peace!

[@micahmueller5186]

Selflessness doesn't see itself

[@mr.charlesharvey1582]

Love is hard to do; not hard to define. Willing the good of the other for the sake of the other.

[@terrencejackson9023]

Looking at others faults constantly without turning inward is key. But the culture in America weaponizes and encourages the human flaw of seeking our own vengeance. We cannot handle this emotion. It blinds us from seeing our fault and contribution to our own demise.

[@joed1950]

Speak for your self sir!

[@terrencejackson9023]

@@joed1950 You are definitely entitled to your own belief. I believe this way due to my own personal experience and according to my understanding of Christ's gospel message. Christ commands to not take vengeance into one's own hands which indicates to me that we are not appointed to judge and condemn others. God is the only the Judge which means to me that we are not equipped or qualified to do so. I am open to a respect dialogue but if that is not what you are interested in that then this is my last word on this.

[@cw4091]

This is EXACTLY the conversation we need to be having. From Patrick Deneen's jumping off point...this is the answer.

[@danatowne5498]

Wow! The way Johnathan explained to Benjamin (and how the question was asked) why a Christian wouldn't want to impose God on another was like someone explaining the whole concept of God, Christ and free will to someone from another planet. Mind-blowingly well spoken!

[@BindingTheYoke]

The only imposition of order which is based on subsidiarity (authority at a local level) is Catholic in nature, that God gives authority to the parent over the child, and the Husband as shepherd within the home (a microcosm of the church) as top down authority. This is expanded outwardly within localized authority as those persons which are chosen as leaders within a community that understand its needs best and can therefore address its issues as macrocosm of the family. And keeping a limitation on the expansion of those powers by the revocation of consent, since without the practice of virtues any family will become corrupt. But the only way one can love and be bound together in love is to have the freedom to deny it. It's the best version but it will always be precarious without the practice of virtue.. even the founders understood that about the economic system.

[@willvincent-jt6ib]

Great conversation 😊

[@russelllaviolette7515]

I love seeing the moments where it all clicks, where it all comes together. Not necessarily cognitively nor intellectually, but the Whole. Benjamin's "God is good" near the end is that moment. Amen.

[@pdstor]

You can tell he's been coached into repeating "but how do you Popperian falsify it bro?" questions by Lindsay, since he obviously understands Pageau's response that he's working with an epistemology different than James'. It is almost like he's a common friend who also happens to be a disinterested party to the simian fecal-pitching one of those friends has initiated against another.

[@Baiyu83]

"Religious multiplicity" is only possible when nobody truly believes in their faith. But if it's like the gravity, then someone has to be right.

[@joshdanaangstadt5109]

I would imagine the reason we cannot find the right religion, is because none of them, in themselves, is perfectly right. Gravity cannot be argued... There is nothing to be argued against. When you find the right religion, this will be the same way. It will look more like reality. You can't argue reality - it doesn't contradict itself. It may appear to first glance, but all it's content is necessary for what it simply is. However, we put brand names on our religion. And brand names envelope interpretations. We do not let God move in the same manner as we allow reality to be reality. We just NEED to put a name on it. We just NEED to put an interpretation on it. And because we only know so much, we cannot, by any means have it perfectly right. None of us,vat this point, have it right. Having religious liberty is not the right answer either, but what choice do we have other than trust the missing content is likely hiding somewhere in the other traditions.

[@carefulcarpenter]

​@@joshdanaangstadt5109 In response to your comment, I will add that religion is a pattern for manufacturing jigsaw puzzles. The image is separate from the pattern of the subbase which it is attached to. Quality control is responsible to make sure all the required pieces are placed into the box. Life gets confusing when a person is poor at quality control--- and blames that on the earlier shift.

[@joshdanaangstadt5109]

@@carefulcarpenter yes, I agree. It is not an easy task to do quality control, nor is it easy to presume to anyone what that might be. Nonetheless, Johnathan has done well to pay close attention to the patterns and to pay attention to their outcome. Reality works the same way. You step outside of that pattern and you will quickly find an autocorrect. This is why it is important to leave such matters to individual experience, and perhaps, collective reflection! God will reveal Himself - through the good the bad and the ugly!

[@carefulcarpenter]

@@joshdanaangstadt5109 For 23 years I have placed puzzle pieces into my box. The picture, I had no ability to imagine precisely how it would look, but as a craftsman I am good at accurate and clean assemblies, Once an old friend asked me where I buy my patterns, my designs. I replied that I create them myself. No matter the complexity, I have first built a project in my head before it is ever ready to begin cutting materials. Over two dozen customers told me that I read their minds. I said that I don't read minds. Now I will retract that statement after 23 years of research. The subbase is mathematical. The image is synchronistic. The Bible attempts to provide enough pieces for each individual. I had to write my own Bible over the decades. Not one person has the sincere curiosity to read my version. Those that I shared empirical evidence with along the way, they all said they could not follow, mentally. The indications reveal three aspects that are inspired by studying the KJV Bible: predestination, supernaturality, and revelation. The Bible is proof, but one has to live three lifetimes in one, to picture the finished image in one's head.

[@carefulcarpenter]

@@wiard Can you explain to me what predestination means--- the religious perspective? Thanks.

[@tensevo]

26:26 This hits hard, staunch independence, indirectly calls upon tyranny. anarchy, calls upon authority.

[@tensevo]

revolution, results in tyranny revolutionary thinking, results in tyrannical thinking

[@scottphardin]

It’s obvious once he points it out. It’s usually presented in the inverse that tyranny wants to atomize us, but his observation is new for me and self evidently true.

[@hansnoeldner1861]

A phenomenally good conversation!

[@umiluv]

1:09:10 - Christ’s sacrifice and example helped me to bear the weight of forgiveness.

[@LenaCabana]

I am finally rediscovering this truth for myself. Beautiful experience.

[@kristyhurt1742]

The definition of love it in the Bible. Love is patient, love is kind, love is long suffering etc. 1 Corinthians 13:4

[@slickmechanical]

That describes characteristics of love, it isn't a definition. For the definition, we must look to Him who is love, who set aside Himself completely solely for the good of us. Love is doing that which is best for another for their sake and for God's sake alone.

[@animula6908]

True transformation begins with yourself, but doesn’t end there. ❤

[@JustT0m752]

Just starting listening to the audio version of Bowling Alone, which talks about the decline of social groups in America and how that is causing massive amounts of loneliness, and loss of meaning.

[@SPW812]

0:00: 💡 Transformation of the world happens through personal change, not political activism. The problem of fragmentation does not have a political solution. 7:37: 🤔 Challenges of understanding worldviews and insights from different perspectives. 14:48: ⚖️ Importance of finding balance between attention and distraction, reason and emotion in human functioning. 21:48: ⚔️ The ongoing struggle between opposing ideologies and the failure to address historical root causes. 28:44: ⚖️ Discussion on the shift towards multiplicity, diminishing justification for nation states, and the challenge of imposing religious ideologies. 36:13: 💡 The challenge of identity lies in finding a balance between extreme nationalism and pure idiosyncrasy, without imposing a tyrannical identity or promoting complete equivalence of values. 43:23: 🤔 Exploring the concept of individuality and its relation to collective identity in sociological discussions. 50:37: 💭 The complexity of defining love and the illusion of absence of religion as a binding force for society. 57:57: 🤔 Debating the imposition of a story or belief system, questioning its usefulness and existence in modern society. 1:04:42: 💡 Challenges in finding long-term solutions in political and cultural divides, emphasizing self-reflection and transformation. 1:11:28: ⚖️ Discussion on the concept of sacrifice and its non-transactional nature in ancient and modern contexts. 1:18:36: 🍽️ Significance of ritualized offering in family unity and participation 1:25:10: 🎭 Interpretation and participation are integral to storytelling, resembling postmodern strategies found in Shakespeare's plays. Recap by Tammy AI

[@privatecitizen4001]

Multiplicity vs unity is pushed to the max in basic training in the military. All transgressions by individuals are punished collectively. No individuals are allowed. Only the unit. I really miss being a part of that. Every man needs that I think even if you don't realize it.

[@whatshisface04]

I think the military is one of the last “secular” places that gives us a sense of being part of something bigger than ourselves (I served in the Marine Corps after high school). Everything has a purpose, and you’re willingly entering into a tradition- a way of life- that existed long before you were born, and will continue after you’ve died.

[@FourOf92000]

several tens of thousands of veteran suicides have something to say in response

[@MeanBeanComedy]

​@@FourOf92000That's because they don't have it anymore.

[@filler7149]

​@@FourOf92000people need food but they die if you shoot them

[@lesson_sync]

The "Cremation of Care" is no accident. Oddly enough, another channel I watch (The Alchemist) had a video come out today speaking of Care, but as the feminine principle.

[@DreamseedVR]

Ooo this comment intrigues me i will have to watch it. Thanks for posting

[@apyorick]

"What is this love thing?" Precisely.

[@Lunarvandross]

This gentleman is a thoughtful interviewer.

[@IronKing66]

Sweeeeet! New vid drop bay-BEEEE!!

[@Witsius]

Your brother Matthieu showed the way in The Language of Creation.

[@nathalieabdallah5109]

Jonathan keep doing what you are doing! Those who have ears to hear let them hear Those who have eyes to see let them see I more than appreciate hearing what God has imparted to you! It has been liberating being able to step out of the cage of materialist thinking, and being able to interact with reality! Finally I got to see Benjamin when he let his wall down and lit up when he was talking about meta

[@jimoconnor4766]

It is funny that being mocked helped me. Bullies have their uses.

[@BoyceofGaming]

There's a good story here!

[@mrmadmaxalot]

Just to tease a little, based on the first half of this so far it seems to be 90% Jonathan. That said, the conversation is very interesting. I think more multiplicity from the interaction would have improved on the unity of Jonathan's ideas.

[@shanecawelti]

Benjamin is as close to a genuine self as one gets

[@cristinasouza8546]

Deep great questions, amazing answers

[@NdxtremePro]

Friendship is not separate from those things. They are all organic.

[@TheAlison1456]

1:00 I love how the symbols in that animation are made up of small parts. 4:18 analytic philosophy moment 9:50 I once read an article about a rationalist in love, having to make a choice. He made a "decision matrix" table of pros and cons and used fancy white paper fonts throughout the article. In the end he said he would go with his "gut". 15:25-15:45 that's the least of my issues with enlightened logical-positivist white-paper rationalism. 51:20-51:30 "there is no absence of religion" well said. There is nominal areligiousness, and areligiousness in the sense of plain ignorance or disinterest in literature, but there is no practical areligiousness. There's disenfranchisement and stuff but that's no absence, it's a blindspot or negligence. 54:36 "we'll have reasonable reason together" 🤣🤣🤣🤣.

[@ibelieve3111]

Thanks

[@robertgray9599]

I imagine reason like a powerful god and god as a thunderous reason. Who are we praying to? Can we separate what dances in our imagination, consumes our thoughts, & enlivens our soul? ❤

[@jrgenbentzen9181]

Looking at itself is exactly the point. Isn't self awareness like the ultimate goal of life?

[@robertpatter5509]

What many people do not understand is the difference between forgiveness and a pardon. Forgiveness is about the personal. Personal Insults. This does not mean you don't punish. A pardon is forgiveness plus a blank slate. No punishment. And is usually not person ,but some societal wrongdoing has been done. You can forgive and still send that person to be punished.

[@jimluebke3869]

"Aim for the center while having compassion for the margin; but do not compromise the ideal or its centrality." Amen, John.

[@BrandonGray]

Pagea, what you mean by subsidiaries is a free flowing organism, that is an organism with a hierarchy of parts seeking after the same goal without knowing there is a hierarchy but flowing together to obtain the apex of things .

[@0_3_6_9_0]

Thank you Jonathan and Benjamin. Very insightful conversation.

[@brandoncooper2421]

I love how Pageau speaks about stories as "symphonic."

[@elkwoodarrow]

Bb: “what is….L o v e………..?” Jp: *laboriously gives us a definition of love over the next 10 minutes* Bb: “Hmm… can anyone really answer that?” Jp: … Sorry Jonathan, the answer was “baby don’t hurt me”

[@NotAnEvilPersian]

A comment on the intro: I think the music can be sent to the background (lower volume) when you state the name of the podcast.

[@davidvogel2710]

What a great example... Every church or small group I've participated in, the groups that did potluck meals more than once a month - these have all become life long friendships 1:19:50, moreover, those that were reluctant to bring food, or attend, those friendships dwindled.

[@setsen337]

The natives did this. Christians killed them for it

[@dominicpaul1]

Well done on your very lucid explanations with such an irritating guest, you are an articulate and patient thinker! Love your videos 😊

[@christophersnedeker]

What you said about rationalizm kinda hit home for me, I'm christian and mostly right wing in my philosophy but mostly left wing in my politics. Sometimes I feel like I ought to be right wing in my politics because that's what the majority of christians believe but I think there's no honest reason to go around saying you believe something other then you think it's true. I almost feel like it'd be better to lie against my own conscience and to deny what seems to me obviously true. It makes me feel like following the christian crowd is more important than the truth or at least honesty. I've heard it said an honest atheist who genuinely isn't convinced is better in God's sight than a dishonest christian who lies to himself to try to make himself "believe" and I agree but sometimes my feelings make me feel the contrary.

[@mirzakaleem]

Greetings, in my humble opinion the bottom line of this talk is to be stoic. Kind regards

[@marybrewer2203]

“ground up” is the key. You have to start with yourself and let the circles build from there. There will be edges to the circles, and they are necessary as part of the whole. The parts must work together, not against each other. Division causes destruction. Bake a cake, or better yet, make a pig pot of delicious soup. You’ll begin to get a sense of what we’re saying. So, cook soup and be a saint. (Pasquale!) Make soup and feed somebody.

[@kawaii_princess_castle]

I think that is both!! Inner transformation and political action!

[@Greg-n]

Benny got you at around the 38:00 minute mark! - cross the tiber big boy, we need your liturgical prowess

[@Tonyvillanueva94]

Didnt really like Benjamin, but he did lay up some vere thoughtful questions that Jonathan slam dunked. Ben had great questions. Jonathan had amazing answers.

[@Christ_is_King1646]

A simple answer to the question of how do you tell if a unity is good or bad is scripture. The unity of the state, the unity of the church, the unity of the family, even the unity of the individual, is given to us by God as a reflection of himself as Trinity, unity and multiplicity, and he tells us what is good because we are his image and he is Good.

[@allenwarren1269]

Sacrifice is making something sacred or maintaining its holiness.

[@brendonlake1522]

The rationalist 'problem' makes me think of the movie 'Equilibrium' in which emotion is outlawed by the authoritarian state with the idea that if humanity got rid of feelings and hunt down all the people holding onto their feelings.

[@Ditendo64]

Also invasion of the body snatchers

[@StruggleoftheOutsider]

thinking about Equilibrium makes me feel stupider.

[@julian9898]

“Mysticism happens every time you encounter unity in the world”

[@ellemnop123]

Brilliant answer to the question, "What is love?" !

[@vivienneb6199]

What was the answer?

[@ellemnop123]

@@vivienneb6199 you can re-watch the episode

[@CMA418]

According to Corinthians, Love is a word used to describe a way of thinking/feeling/being/doing. “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonour others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, and it keeps no record of wrongs.”

[@vivienneb6199]

@@CMA418 Lovely, but sadly no one lives up to this. So, I assume no one really, truly loves, not even "god."

[@brandoncooper2421]

1:24:24 this could be a whole discussion in itself

[@viorelgheorghe9772]

At one point you statet that the consept of borders is a new thing and I am curious if you are referring to the times wen we wore hunter gaderers, and living in caves? And even then I am sure that even if at the smaller scale tribes have a theritory that they keep oder tribes of that theritory!

[@s.b1192]

My first live KZbin thing! excitement!

[@aaronblackartt]

Sorry, but this was prerecorded. More a 'live' premier.

[@JimmyEscajeda]

13:09 The “tool set” one uses to assess what is proper or improper is simply the Superficiality Index of the situation, idea, or analysis itself. The more superficial, the more incorrect the judgment derived will be. Scripture tells us to not make judgments by appearances, which is the definition of superficiality. This is where one should start paying attention to avoid making incorrect judgments.

[@lisbethkelly4480]

I'm only a third of the way through and already have a page of notes. This is so good. Quick comment, i think our nations identity crisis really happened when we legalized abortion. That's when our nation officially identified as pagan, which is inherently multiple. I've been pondering what gives a nation its borders for awhile now. I do lean towards a Catholic monarchy, but mostly because of a video i watched by the mad monarchist, I think.

[@vincentlewis5]

What type of love are you discussing? The English word love is used in many different ways. It is used to describe a strong like of the material good or thing. It also includes what is termed as unconditional love.

[@tensevo]

how to protect ARC from ideological capture?

[@BonsonIsland]

Is there still a way to get the Snow White book?

[@salaamyitbarek3248]

Compassion is equally doctrinal to truth for the Orthodox Christian. You can't have one without the other. One is does not exist to dilute the other! And all our Saints (if not quoted out of context) are fully compassionate an at the same time fully dedicated to truth.

[@jimluebke3869]

"Unity is inevitable" Wait, what? Why? That's not something you can just assert without any support whatsoever. Unity takes work. At a limit case, that "work" becomes coercive.

[@alexkairis3927]

"...It's not going to be coded like two plus two equals four." -but it already is

[@danielmiller2069]

I get it but really beholding Lord Jesus Christ is how.. You have to see the light and pursue the light... You don't see your sin properly without the Light. Really enjoy the beauty of multiplicity and unity picture. Both and... No denial either with no domination of either.

[@pdstor]

1:00:00 It is NOT incumbent on us to defend ourselves against the imposition of a tyranny. It is incumbent on THEM to show we ARE actively engaged in such a conspiracy, NOT to just **SAY** that we are and shame those in disagreement out of the movement like James does.

[@SonofWoman-hx5bd]

Some personal complements, that somebody may find helpful. 4:53 “How to evaluate hierarchies” We can evalue hierarchies by the measure of the error they are encoding. A bad hierachy explodes in multiplicity in a manner thats not consistent with the levels it has above, and the levels it has below -so the figurative corrupted tree gets a tendency to develop malignant tumors which make it “fat” in asymetrical manners. I think mathematically this is a way of framing it. Too much slopes, too much derivatives; will bring an excess of microstates. 12:49 “How do you know theres an imbalace?” Imbalance becomes manifest by the ripple effect in which one error subdues the agency of other objects or agents to adapt to said error, making them give up their own utilitarian definition of self, for the new definition of utility that the error is transgressing. The problem of imbalance, becomes a problem of figuring what the correct definition of utility is -but within the extreme human capacity to adapt, we can change names as we please, so figuring out the “original purpose” means grasping as far as its posible on what the universal narrative is. High entropy -meaning high fragmentation- suggests a disagreement between the purpose of an object, and the utility the object is being bestown with. But even then, the terrible danger is that all thermodynamic systems (we can extrapolate thermodynamics to simply the science of order and disorder) will in fact adapt to a corrupt definition of balance, bringing over time true metastability to the sytem. Global agreement. Altough such system to the non alienanted agents will look like a cancer tumor of zombie cells giving up all idiosincracy, instead of a living organ. Too much idiosincracy without a narrative will always drain the energy of the system, and degenerate it into a cancer though. So maybe the definition of balance would be something along the lines of preservation of idiosincracy along long periods of time, in a manner where agents playing out a utility get a chance to always move vertically along the hierarchy, without integrating to unity too much, or derivating to fragmentation too much.

[@joshmcminn5168]

If you're running out of content, can we give Richard Rohlin a call and start digging up Celtic, Slavic, Nordic, Babylonian, and even Greek and Eygptian mythology?

[@piushalg5041]

The nation state is the necessary precondition for a functional democracy.

[@LuIsSaNcHeZ510]

Bret Weinstein said “all truths must reconcile.” These guys will reconcile. Eventually. The problem is this electronic distance between each other that Jonathan talks about. They’re really just talking past each other. I think the enlightenment thing that’s missing in the mystical Christian world view, is the clarity of thought and the specific granular details of what’s happening materially. I’m probably off, but just my 2 cents. I think we’d be lost with out both Jonathan and James.

[@carefulcarpenter]

Eric Weinstein, Bret's brother, said that Independent research over a lifetime is Great Science. Spiritual Science (anthroposophy) and Religion are different. Symbols require some institution to define them--- in the context of history. But where is the start point? If humans have a divine energy within, then when did humans begin? Is human conception a supernatural event? I have miraculous empirical evidence to suggest that this is true. As an independent researcher I am ignored by all institutions and individuals for fear that their truth system is inferior. Interesting times we live in. ❤😊

[@teds7379]

Lindsay may be right about certain things but libertarianism is ultimately shallow and poorly thought through.

[@vivienneb6199]

no, we are not lost, but these YT guys need you think that. That's how they make their money.

[@LuIsSaNcHeZ510]

@@teds7379 do you think there are any Christian libertarians? In my view, the state has been the greatest enemy of the church and seeks to take its place in every way. Jonathan talks about everything being good in its proper place in relation to everything else. Truth is that the state grows in power as we abdicate our responsibilities. The idea of subsidiarity is libertarianism in my view. I think most people misrepresent libertarianism in a way they don’t with conservatism. I could say conservatism doesn’t work because it just blindly conserves. I recommend Dave Smith’s version of libertarianism. I guess a conservative libertarianism is where I stand politically.

[@carefulcarpenter]

@@vivienneb6199 What is your relative age?

[@jonschmitt232]

Politics is everything. I felt like I was watching Bens show.

[@keystoneken5032]

Have you guys read A. Duggin...seems so.

[@mrwhite2039]

I kind of disagree with the other dude saying the LGBT type stuff is a form of Christianity. Christianity preaches merit and the LGBT inclusion is not based on merit. So that's just wrong. He's reframing incorrectly. Christianity is also patriarchal, so not LGBT progressive agenda at all. Sure if you want to call something extrapolated out so far that it doesn't even resemble what it originally was, the name of the original thing. Go ahead. But it's not accurate and he's wrong. Also, you can implement Christian nationality but not in the way you're thinking. All you have to do is assert that Christians are allowed to pass laws based on their worldviews too. If the secularist can pass laws based on their worldview there's no reason Christians can't. And one we understand this as a society we can begin to justify passing our laws. It doesn't have to even be framed as Christian nationalism

[@umiluv]

You misunderstand. The wokeness is an anti-Christ offshoot of Christianity. It takes Christian values such as being equal under God and twists them into equality of outcome. The T stuff is the woke’s version of being reborn. The difference is they k*** the old self instead of integrating that part of who they are into the rebirth. The parallels are there. But it is twisted. Just as Jonathan says that atheism comes from Christianity, so does wokism. There’s no denying it. It’s why it propped up in America as a form of extreme Puritanism but in an anti-Christ version.

[@umiluv]

The One Ring must be cast into Mount Doom. You do not wield the One Ring without a corruption that takes over you. You will become the Nazgûl. Christ did NOT become or overthrow the government to spread His message. This is the entire reason why the Jews reject Christ. They expected Him to come and overthrow Rome. He eventually did many centuries later but it happened through love and sacrifice.

[@mrwhite2039]

@@umiluv Christians did overthrow rome

[@umiluv]

@@mrwhite2039- yes but many many years after Christ.

[@mrwhite2039]

@umiluv it's not virtuous to allow your family to get slaughtered just as it's not virtuous to allow babies to be slaughtered. If you think welding the sword when it's reasonable to save those lives isn't a logical follow based on the logical faculties that are God given, then I think you have abandoned those faculties provided by god.

[@piushalg5041]

True federalism is a means of containing centralism and therefor is a form of subsidiarity. So you have to defend federalism as much as possible and oppose intrusions of the central state

[@tensevo]

lead by example, forgive your enemies,

[@anoncentur]

Merger is fully imagined in the same way separation and boundaries are fully imagined. In the same way the amalgamation of experiences or sensory data is "Love". I would hardly say that there is any actual phenomenon to refer to. This is why science and religion are in conflict... both are religion in the sense they require trust and belief in urge, both are science in the sense they rely on experience and the inability to accurately transmit information All religions are scientific at the axiomatic level and all science is religious "beyond" the axiomatic simplification/abstraction

[@isaiahkerstetter3142]

For more on this topic I recommend the "Orthodox Survival Course" by Fr. Seraphim Rose.

[@porkpiecap]

What you are saying is that belief is an art.

[@PilgrimMission]

Very good principles. However as I was a missionary to India who saw that my primary purpose in India was to convert people to Christianity, how would these "principles" apply to India in the present day? If Jonathan's "system" is workable, is it only workable in Christian countries? And if you could get them to work in India would that be enough? And what about Muslims? Are these concepts only for Canadians and Americans? Maybe preaching the gospel would be how St Paul would have dealt with these issues, however foolish that seems, and let the rest develop in its own way.

[@daanvangeijlswijk7787]

I like the hammer example, it hits the nail :-). Is this not also the reason for Phenomonolgy? The first person perspective is the only human perspective, therefore the search for objectivity is ephimeral. Experience is the central issue. The Enligthenment has no answers there.

[@jonavery4978]

Love is that which binds spontaneously and, to use an often mangled word, consensually, only meaning here that one has the choice to disobey those binds. It is a law in the legal sense, not in the scientific sense. That's why the proper response to God's love is characterized as obedience.

[@Gruenders]

The Great Schism precipitated this

[@AlexLGagnon]

However stupid it may seem in appearance, the movie Napoleon Dynamite is a perfect exemple of proper and improper sacrifices. It's brilliant.

[@umiluv]

1:01:15 - I know of ppl in my personal life that do believe if Christians ruled the government things would be better. My church founders don’t believe that at all because they believe government is like the One Ring and bc Christ never used the government for His message. But I do believe there are Christians who think if THEY used the One Ring, things would be better. They don’t understand that change comes from within/

[@Baiyu83]

Christianity does not reject governments. "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God..." -- Romans 13:1-9

[@JediTony81]

Governments, like anything else, must recognize and respect the principles of subsidiarity and hierarchy if they are to be good. In other words, governments need not be explicitly Christian but they must respect the fact that they cannot be a god to the people they govern.

[@jrgenbentzen9181]

The more self aware you are; the freer you are. That doesn't mean you're stripped of morality. Like the whole point is to not be an emotional clusterfuck