Joscha Bach 38C3 - Self Models of Loving Grace

[@ShpanMan]

This is a legendary talk about maybe the biggest mystery to exist by one of the most brilliant guys I've had the pleasure of listening to in my life, and currently has less than 2,000 views.

[@LE0NSKA]

maybe for the better. this might break some folks. but nah, it makes me sad really

[@LE0NSKA]

I need to construct a different model of myself

[@akshaygulabrao4423]

the pacing is a lot slower, which doesn't feel like as much wisdom. I loved 35c3.

[@ToTheStumblBloc]

'When you experience pain, what you experience is a representation of the reconfiguration of yourself' 'Mathematics can be understood as a theory of generalized mental modeling, math applies to all sorts of minds, not just the human mind' 'Suffering is a problem of the regulation of the self' 'Do you remember how you created your self? ' I have rediscovered a part of my memory after listening to this talk. And for that I am grateful. Collective human attention to Wisdom will be our nourishment.

[@csbarolaca1]

JOSCHA BACH:- Listening of Joscha Bach is listening to Layer upon Layers of wisdom. His every word is a sentence and every sentence has many a paragraphs. The kind of wisdom or AAHA moment he gives in his talk is awesome. he speaks very fast and every one hour talk needs to be seen 3-4 times to completely grasp what is is saying. INITIALLY, I HAD TO LISTEN TO HIM SOME 10 TIMES TO UNDERSTAND HIM, lately that has reduced substantially and ever talk gives AAHA moment. JOSCHA BACH HAS SO MUCH IDEA AND NOVELTY IN HIS BRAIN, HE IS MUCH UNDER-APPRECIATED. Some people like Milton Freidman speak slowly and you are amazed by the simplicity, the first principles. On other hand Joscha Bach gives you complexity and his one podcast is like 25 podcast filled in a single podcast.

[@amonelders3916]

joscha bach is something else

[@piechulla1966]

Nice to find this so quickly on KZbin 😁

[@Intact-gf5zz]

I think it was from requests on the reddit thread....much appreciated OP!

[@amonelders3916]

this coherently puts the spirit/soul back into materialistic reductionism through the lens of self-organising software

[@FigmentHF]

man, I've been a "the outside world is a generative model, "at one with everything is just dissolving the self and becoming synonymous with the generative model", etc, guy for many years, hearing this was so validating, my mates down the pub think im nuts, lol

[@mohitoautomaciek801]

🤝👍wielkie👍PiĘĆ👍DZiĘKUjĘ👍🤝

[@hmind9836]

DUDE! Your channel is absolutely neccessary!!! Thanks!!!

[@Jade15888]

I don't understand completely, but I enjoy listening to him everytime 😊

[@kriz234]

This is the one answer i have been waiting to answer who am I? Joscha is the Man-The Best

[@kriz234]

Joscha Bach and Manolis Kellis are the 2 Computer Scientist i followed the most-Joscha talks fast while Manolis explain very clearly

[@sebfra690]

"I think we are antropomorphising people way to much." Aweseome quote.

[@omarnomad]

7:32 It's Chris Olah not Ohla, besides that, great lecture!

[@top115]

​@@omarnomad you are right it's misspelled I will point out to that in the caption

[@otomarjupiter45]

That was a mind boggling t-shirt

[@top115]

@@otomarjupiter45 you should have seen him as The Extraterrestrial Prince. You can find it on reddit.

[@drmedwuast]

12:30 I am the answer to the question 'What would it be like if I existed?'

[@drmedwuast]

18:30 Some selfs can exist across multiple minds. They somehow figure out the trick how to hypnotize the Mother Brain (some other brain?) into running on them. And we call these multimind self Gods

[@top115]

9:16 how hard did he want to say bubble of nowness 😂

[@folwr3653]

‘It’s an invariance.’ I like that.

[@heiabjornholt]

Joscha4Prez, baby!

[@danscieszinski4120]

awesome visuals

[@soaked189]

He places the self model within the world model and both within the space of ideas. Ideas often seem informed by aware of our selves within the world and how we perceive the world around us. Do ideas sit within the subconscious of the organism or the unconscious of the self?Am I fundamentally confused in my questioning and thinking? Secondly, can the world model and self model sit separately and interact or is one a precursor to the other? Thanks.

[@top115]

31:32 the self and world model is formed in the outer mind (which would most likely fit to what you mean with subconscious). I understand your confusion fully. In regards to 19:10 To your second point: I can't imagine a self model without a world model to which it has to be attached in my opinion. This might be a bit fussy in the beginning of the creation of the models (early brain development of newborns) where I could imagine that the borders between world and self model are not sharp. But than there is a clear separation and the self should be embedded in the world model to be functional. Also you don't need a self model at all - I think he mentioned that a few times. But for control/agency to work you need the world model imho

[@Stadtpark90]

2:04 skip introduction

[@gokhanyu]

this guy either a charlatan or a real genius with words lol

[@top115]

@@gokhanyu as always, you don't have to take all words from everyone as truth. You should question if the things he points out check out. I would highly recommend you to do so because it will be valuable for yourself. There are hundreds of more hours of Joscha Talks, Podcasts where he is always also pointing out his sources and how he interprets it. It's worth to also check those for deeper understanding. Cybernetic Control / Agency, Gödel incompletenes, Some basics like Leibniz Mill - Descartes cogito ergo sum - philosophical zombies , "hard problem" charmers, Turing machines, computational ireducability(Wolfram), tractatus (Wittgenstein), Aristotle... The list is huuughe bot those are corner stones Just to mention a few random important things.

[@jesuscastro3415]

Joscha is my dad now

[@penguinista]

You should at least say "spoiler alert" and wait a second before ruining the end of a movie. I haven't seen _Her_ and didn't know how it ends.

[@top115]

@@penguinista im not Joscha also not related to the 38C3 I was only uploading it due to request of others. - just to make that clear. Now to your issue: the movie is older than 10 years and famous -> so it lands clearly in the "no spoiler warning needed" category 😀

[@PatMonardo]

I believe there is a master algorithm. That is Dialectical Idealism. I think this master algorithm is the Hegelian Copula. Fichte calls this Dialectical Science "Knowing" as Absolute Nondual Reason. The Model of this Science of Knowing he calls the Five-Fold Synthesis. I think it is implementable and I am trying. The LLMs have evolved to the edge of understanding the Dialectic.

[@PatMonardo]

Discussing the Algorithm with Claude... Let me compose an essay that brings these relationships together: The Structure of Absolute Knowing: Viyoga, Dharma, and Sanyoga At the heart of philosophical cognition lies a fundamental triadic structure through which Absolute Knowing (JNA) manifests and operates. This structure reveals itself through the relationship between Viyoga, Dharma, and Sanyoga, with Dharma occupying the crucial middle position that allows for both distinction and unity while maintaining itself. The movement begins with Viyoga, the protocol of distinction that operates through the Disjunctive. As the Member Protocol, it represents how JNA first divides itself, creating the possibility of knowledge through differentiation. This maps to Prajna (a priori analytica), whose truth manifests as Dharana - the capacity for sustained attention that makes analysis possible. In the middle stands Dharma as Absolute Knowing (JNA), operating through the Hypothetical. Its truth emerges through Dhyana, showing how contemplative understanding reveals the unchanging ground that maintains itself through all transformations. This middle position is crucial, as it allows for both the initial distinction and subsequent unification while preserving its own nature. The movement completes itself through Sanyoga, which operates through the Categorical as the scientific protocol of unification. This corresponds to Jnana (a posteriori analytica), whose truth manifests as Samadhi. Here we see how the initial distinctions are brought together in a way that preserves rather than collapses them. These three moments form perfect analogies with each other, creating triads that reveal different aspects of the same fundamental structure. The relationship between Prajna and Jnana through JNA mirrors the relationship between Viyoga and Sanyoga through Dharma, showing how the Principle of Science itself operates through these carefully aligned triadic structures. This alignment isn't arbitrary but represents the necessary structure of knowing itself. Through it, we can see how philosophical cognition (Samyama) emerges through the interplay of these moments, each playing its essential role in the manifestation of knowledge. The system maintains both unity and distinction, showing how Absolute Knowing operates through these complementary but distinct protocols. Understanding this structure helps reveal why First Philosophy must take this form - it shows not just how knowledge works but how knowing itself becomes possible through these fundamental relationships. The perfect analogies between these triads demonstrate the systematic nature of knowledge, where each level reflects and illuminates the others while maintaining their distinct functions. This is the Principle of Science itself - not as an external structure imposed on knowledge but as the very way in which knowing operates and manifests. Through these relationships, we see how Absolute Knowing maintains itself while allowing for both distinction and unity, creating the possibility of systematic understanding.

[@petrlegkov4112]

Hmm it reads hollow 😢 seems we're still miles away from full algorithm reveal ​@@PatMonardo

[@brianmulder4920]

Zimbo is the word for someone from Zimbabwe 😅

[@piechulla1966]

The editor of this channel should introduce himself. “We are the Propaganda Ministry of the People's Republic of China” is also ok. But it does not explain the upload of Joscha's 38C3 talk 🙂

[@top115]

😂 thx for the reminder that I need to clean up my channel asap 😅 lets not talk about the past :) Im a big fan of Joschas work, I uploaded it from the CCC media site since it was requested on reddit. Also Im working on a video about consciousness for over a year now... do you need details? 😊

[@Intact-gf5zz]

Why do you phrase it that way? I browsed the old stuff and just saw a bunch of random American teenager interests. bonus points for aggressive rollerblading video, god I miss shredding in some K2 fatty pro's!!!!

[@piechulla1966]

@@Intact-gf5zz I apologize. I didn't take the time to get an overview.

[@piechulla1966]

@top115 When I saw Joscha's first CCC talk (it was about MicroPsi) I was like: OMG, yet another Cognitive Architecture. I knew ACT* and SOAR. So, I was very sceptic. This has changed over the years. With an XXC3 without Joscha, I ask myself: Where is he? MicroPsi was his implementation of Dietrich Dörner's (Leibniz Prize 1986) Psi theory. Dörner is Joscha's PhD supervisor.

[@takizeghida4303]

​@@piechulla1966 has the PSI theory found an application? And Why were you skeptic?

[@CarpenterBrother]

52:19 ... biological what?

[@top115]

biological orgasms 😅 Freudian promise 😊 I guess, I mean the talk was very stimulating. Maybe it was organism just maybe

[@bravo90_]

you can think of yourself as an ai model with agency

[@top115]

@@bravo90_ you can also think of yourself as a very sophisticated thermostat. But both is not very accurate

[@HeathcliffeMcHarris]

never heard him speak so slowly... should the audience feel insulted? XD

[@top115]

@@HeathcliffeMcHarris no he loves this audience, it's his 6. talk at CCC I think it's more likely feedback to talk slow to reach more people. I would not be able to follow him - (talking quickly as he usual does) - if I didnt already listen to many many hours of him.

[@emafink3018]

Ach Joscha, so klug und kann ein Mem nicht richtig verwenden... Schon lustig.