Why PEMDAS Is A Failure

[@JoshChristiane]

Be my friend on X at: x.com/Josh_Christiane

[@chloeanna1262]

funny how inconsistent math can be

[@lucijahorvatinovic4077]

Highly recommend this video and we will be back for sure.

[@donnalinda9313]

I have seen the calculator issue.

[@rayparsons2720]

Thanks for the video, great work

[@JoshChristiane]

Glad you liked it! Thank you for the comment and watching

[@jeronimopichardo9858]

OMG this is really nice, love you mate!

[@amitaraisinghani5809]

plz create a ethical hacking course also if you can plz teach c/c++ for making payloads

[@JoshChristiane]

I would, but in my country it is debatably illegal, and I would for sure get demonetized from KZbin. An ethical hacking course would be so useful, but many people would use the information for harm instead of positive influence. For this reason I simply suggest people buy the book "Hacking: The Art of Exploitation". That way you can learn about it for yourself and I don't have to take the heat for teaching it.

[@amitaraisinghani5809]

​@@JoshChristianeOK I understand😮

[@mariamary4348]

Thank you for finally saying what I feel

[@miaella369]

So what is the perfect system?

[@JoshChristiane]

I don't know. I'm not a mathematician. I'd imagine there is a better system though, another comment mentioned RPN and that's still a better solution than what we have now. We just need a unified and simple system for the masses. Mathematicians can come up with their own solution that works for their deeply complex needs.

[@SnakeEngine]

PEMDAS works perfectly fine, just apply it ;)

[@antonvlaskin8496]

​@@JoshChristiane German (Leibniz) math school and rules are totally fine, and easy to understand. It's not some hardcore problem, and people don't need confusing mnemonics for it. I never saw a single person from Germany or ex-USSR who would struggle with those meme questions. You mentioned a German rule as PEMDAS analogue, but it's not, it's simple and unambiguous. Also it's much easier to look at all of those memes if you just put the ommited multiplication sign back.

[@zerosypher0114]

Is there a way to test 7:47 a consistent order of operations with code and geometry?

[@JoshChristiane]

Yes. There actually already are consistent systems that would work, the problem is nobody seems to want to decide on one and standardize it. It would require several major governments coming together and nationalizing one system, but that'll never happen. So the issue isn't so much that a consistent system doesn't exist, but just that getting people to switch to it is majorly difficult.

[@susanmary579]

When the math doesn't math...

[@alliealma4442]

I didnt know BODMAS is the same as USA

[@JoshChristiane]

Yeah BODMAS and PEMDAS are the same effectively.

[@adaadah7472]

Very interesting to learn about this now

[@LukeAvedon]

I saw you featured by the Primeagen. Your famous now dawg.

[@JoshChristiane]

Yeah I saw that, that was cool. Not famous by ANY measure, but still very cool to publish videos that get watched.

[@BrightRockCapital]

Covert operations to fractional form and it makes more sense

[@JoshChristiane]

True.

[@karenlisa5664]

i never was taught any of this in school

[@alexneudatchin2161]

fun thing is if you try -8 in power of -3 it will work on ti calc but will not on hp. Really it must not work

[@JoshChristiane]

That's right, and HP calculators used Reverse Polish Notation which doesn't even use parentheses. Many competing math systems.

[@alexneudatchin2161]

@@JoshChristianei've meant -8 in power of 1/3 . hp states that -8 is outside of parameter set of // a in the power of p/q // family of functions . where ti prints -2

[@cagdasucar3932]

Wow. I actually don't remember getting taught anything like pemdas at school. They just did so many problems that you kinda got it like a language.

[@JoshChristiane]

I've heard a lot of people say that as well. While I do remember being taught PEMDAS, it was most definitely taught to me wrong, and based on the people I've talked to just about everybody else too.

[@lawrencemanning]

Same. I only really started considering precedence when I started programming BASIC at about 15 years old. I remember vividly studying a presence table in a programming book. This is the late 1980s. I’d done simple algebra at that point at school but precedence wasn’t discussed in any kind of detail, and in fact I can’t remember it being bought up as distinct thing to learn, it was more a thing you just caught onto.

[@SnakeEngine]

Just strictly use PEMDAS instead of PE(M or D)(A or S) and the problem is solved. You probably get what I mean.

[@JoshChristiane]

That's what I always thought too, but too many mathematicians claim it's the wrong way and once again we run into the issue of nobody being able to agree on one system. The problem here was never that one method is better than another (in most cases), it's just that there is no unification and standardization. We have standards that work well for everything from ASCII tables to compilers and web interpreters, yet nobody can agree on math, lol.

[@laser31415]

I put one of the examples from social media into 5 different publicly available AIs and got 2 different answers as well. They can not agree on these either.

[@JoshChristiane]

Yeah, it's amazing how we haven't figured this out yet for the sake of consistency. You'd think it'd be important. NASA doesn't use PEMDAS for calculations from what I understand, they developed their own internal system to guarantee stuff like this doesn't happen.

[@svrmohan123]

Sorry, math is not broken. I did masters in mathematics without ever having to worry about this issue. The solution is simply represent the problems in a clear and non confusing manner. Even this expression or equation you have can easily represented in a way it’s clear with additional paranthesis.

[@JoshChristiane]

I'm glad you never had issues with the conventional order of operations, and if you're careful and just think about problems thoroughly you never will. But you're also an expert. Just because you as an expert don't have issues with it doesn't mean there shouldn't be some sort of simplified solution for those who aren't. Not everybody is a math pHD candidate.

[@luisbuzane6010]

Yo creo en la matematica ese problema tiene varias soluciones, y cada una es una integral la derivada todo por eso la mecanica cuántica, el que es bueno para matematicas y no comprende la planteasion del problema pues confundira su inteligencia.

[@GhulamMehdi-yx6su]

Js Jo djkdjgorjcsusi😢guhghg

[@KinyoHQ]

@@JoshChristiane I would try to listen to what bro is saying it might help you make more useful content for the people coming here who actually care about math.

[@ssznajder]

It's funny how passionate people get over this issue. I think they like complaining about it! I"m not sure I agree with your idea to "teach the controversy." That might be interesting to already highly math-literate students, but I think it would just further confuse those who struggle with it. I'd need to do some further research about WHY this has been an issue, why people differ on their opinions of what the order of operations should be, etc. You allude to thiese differences but don't really spell them out, which is fine. I interpret the expression as equalling 16 since, to me, 8 / 2 (4) = 8 / 2 * 4, and division and multiplication have the same priority, so we go left to right. So, obviously, this is the way I would prefer things to be taught, though I'm open to other ideas since I don't have much reason to think this is the BEST way. And what would the BEST way look like? How would we know it's the best? Probably through some controlled experiment, but I doubt this has been or ever will be done. Oh well. Now, if I really wanted to be controversial, I would say, honestly, the kids are right. They will never use math beyond basic arithmatic, and so they don't need to learn it. I know! I think, instead of wasting time trying to guide every student up the mountain to calculus, we should stop just before algebra, and we should emphasize mental calculation. Maybe throw in a bit of geometry for good measure. That would about cover your real-world need for math in my estimation. For those kids who really like math, more advanced classes should be offered. Great video! I'm enjoying your channel a lot.

[@JoshChristiane]

Thank you for the detailed comment, enjoyed hearing your perspective. I agree with you on a lot of that as well, all some really excellent points.

[@annives]

I agree with this completely. I think they should spend more time emphasizing and strengthening arithmetic, basic mental math, and real world math problems. That's all that most people need and it's the most used by everyone. In school they advance to algebra before the students are really strong in basic mental math and then those who feel bad at math already, really struggle to keep up and by the time they're done they just feel stupid and confused.

[@kazedcat]

Distributive property is more important than PEMDAS. So you have 8/2(2+2). By distributive property then I should be able to distribute 8/(2(2)+2(2))= 8/(4+4)= 8/8=1. Any order of operation that forces you to abandon distributive property is wrong. Distributive property is an axiom of mathematics PEMDAS is not.

[@JoshChristiane]

Agreed. Good point, and I hold a similar view. But it's very often not taught as such, sadly.

[@ssznajder]

@@kazedcat My problem isn't that you didn't simplify the parenthesis, but that you distributed with 2 instead of 4, the reduction of 8/2. Division and multiplication have the same precedence, so you go left-to-right. But I will not be dragged into the weeds any further! I will not argue about this. 😆

[@Abcefg3903]

true mathematician would use the problem as a counterexample to prove that PEMDAS is inconsistent is there a point to illogical math? 🤦‍♂

[@JoshChristiane]

You make a great point.

[@avagrace4401]

I always thought pemdas as a bad system

[@janowazir]

Hi sir you are giving best videos and also good information. One day you will get millions of subscribers.

[@JoshChristiane]

Thank you so much 😀 I really appreciate your viewership and kind comment!

[@janowazir]

@@JoshChristiane You welcome. Best luck to you.

[@CERAC...]

This video raises a fascinating point about the tension between consistency and innovation in mathematics. So yes, an excellent on point presentation! Your exploration of alternative order of operations systems was thought-provoking. While the conventional approach has served us well for centuries, I appreciate your call for a broader perspective that fosters deeper understanding and creativity in future generations. Mathematics thrives on exploration and diverse applications, and encouraging healthy skepticism of singular systems can be instrumental in achieving this.

[@JoshChristiane]

Absolutely agree. Well said!

[@PRIMARYATIAS]

Math is actually invented, You can invent your own interpretations for +,-,/,* as it is taught in Abstract Algebra courses, There is no necessity for the usual interpretations/definitions, Though it will probably be much more harder for “normies” out there to conceptualize when trying to first show them.

[@JoshChristiane]

Excellent point and comment. And when we break down most (all?) maths, it's really just methods for addition and subtraction.

[@AhmadKouta]

LOL, this left me considering a new tech talk together :) Great job Josh!

[@JoshChristiane]

Any time! Thanks for your comment and support, Ahmad! It's very much appreciated. 🙂

[@LukeAvedon]

I am anti school

[@JoshChristiane]

I'm anti-school, but very pro-education. The two aren't always linked.

[@lawrencemanning]

It’s a valid stance that I agree with, but there is the socialising aspect of “school” to consider as well. I have a 10 year old whom for various reasons may have to come out of mainstream education, and one of the things I worry about massively is the social “learning” he gets surrounded by his like aged peers. FWIW I’m in the UK and know very little about the US education system.

[@JoshChristiane]

This is a good point too, Lawrence. Socialization is so important. Whether that comes from school or some other system I think it should never be neglected. Here in the USA most homeschoolers for example do weekly group meetups with organizational schedules so the kids are still among their peers and develop those social skills.

[@kellya.osborne3397]

Serious great content and Works perfectly.

[@lawrencemanning]

Everyone should switch to RPN. Problem solved. 😂

[@JoshChristiane]

While making this video I ran into quite a lot of reverse polish notation, which was kind of fun to study and learn about. HP calculators used to solely use it, and many people swear it's the one ring to rule them all. I actually conceptually like it, but they claim it's hard to learn for people used to algebraic notation, and can get hard to write. Personally I love the idea of not having to write out parentheses, so I'm all for it. 😁

[@rodrigothompson2102]

The video is phenomenal also superb.

[@KinyoHQ]

ehhh well math is made up. its simply a tool. if you use as an art, you'll create art, if you use it a science you'll get science aka philosophy. as for criticizing the education system, okay, but you might want to create more thought out solutions, and then join a body who addresses these issues, unless you're just making niche media for some reason.

[@JoshChristiane]

I understand your point, but math is not just "made up", math exists with or without human interference and drives the universe around us, that's the beauty of objectivity in sciences. Our relationship to mathematics and how we express those truths is complex and not without inconsistencies, but there are determinative answers to every problem. As far as joining a group that addresses these issues I agree with you, that's why I'm active in my ISD and community trying to further the quality of our education. Not to mention when you make videos like these (niche or otherwise) you have the opportunity to share information that can help challenge people and the way they think.

[@hanaahmetspahic7159]

They show a lot of proof love the live stream cams.