Practical PID Tuning - Part 8 - Getting From Good To Perfect

[@BoneyYuenMedia]

Nice education video. I've been using KongKong props for a period of time and found that they are well balanced by the manufacturer. Learnt from your videos, I raised up the P and D to remove oscillations. Based upon the stock PID, I raised the P term by 0.5 steps while the D term by 5 steps to test the best settings.

[@JoshuaBardwell]

Awesome! Sounds about right.

[@PropwashRotorsports]

Joshua, aside from your PID-tuning prowess, your flying is really sharp. I have been watching your videos since last year, and I must say that your acro skills are top notch. And that is one sweet muumuu......

[@JoshuaBardwell]

Thanks. It's a saree wrap skirt though :-)

[@Scrub_Zero]

Great video! This is a tough area for me! Thanks and great work as always!

[@1917VIL]

Very nice, Joshua! Very helpful! Thanks!

[@JoshuaBardwell]

Glad to hear it!

[@joshfinley85]

great information as always .

[@avagofpv789]

ive not tried raisen my yaw on p I will av a go see what happens thanks for the info and video helped me out a lot

[@flywithmefpv]

It would be nice to see the PIDs that you used and adjusted, I am fairly new to PID tuning so the challenge for me is the starting point.

[@JoshuaBardwell]

Start with the default values and work from there.

[@astragalizont]

Drinking game: every "propwash" take a shot..boom headache the next morning. Maybe you should call it "how to tame propwash 2.0" Great video, keep em coming! Could you edit in your PIDs or changes into the video, like in your DVR videos? Its easier for us to follow your thoughts

[@kentboehm1981]

Joshua, I have just watched your Practical Tuning series back to back and I have to say it is very cool how your flying has become more and more refined. In this video it really is wonderful to watch. You have much more nuanced control of the copter which is really nice to see in terms of progression from the earlier videos. I have a question about tuning out propwash. When you have a copter that handles propwash scenarios correctly, can you still hear surging in the motors as the copter rides the turbulent air? It appears not from this video but... I have been assuming that getting rid of propwash would mean the copter always sounds smooth and you wouldn't hear that classic fluttering oscillation sound as you descend through your wake with power on, but it occurred to me that perhaps you WOULD hear this but the copter would not physically oscillate. So the motors are rapidly changing power settings to deal with the dynamic turbulent air thus you HEAR the sound but your footage would look smooth. Like a car on a bumpy road - you would SEE the suspension working to smooth out the bumps but the chassis would be steady and stable. Is this correct? Trying to work out what I am aiming for when eliminating propwash through tuning

[@JoshuaBardwell]

Your suspension analogy is exactly correct. I find that when D is high enough to make the copter fly really well, you hear the motors surging especially when the throttle is low and the copter is "floating" at the top of a punchout.

[@nobody_unkn]

@Joshua, I have yet to see it or hear you talk about it but when im doing some amature LOS and when I do a roll the quad looks like its "tick tocking" to try and describe it as I am doing a full roll the quad looks like its skipping every 20°. As I have said before you have been a huge help in the multirotor community thank you for your time and help.

[@JoshuaBardwell]

I would want to check Blackbox to see if rcCommand was stuttering or if the motor were skipping or what.

[@gautelundal9940]

awesome! after watching all the tune videos, and trying it out, i can see and hear what you are talking about! and my tune has gotten much better! love your work! now i need to get some KingKong 5040 tri-blades! :) how do you feel about 6" props? on a 250 quad

[@JoshuaBardwell]

There are some race courses where 6" makes sense, but most pilots are running 5".

[@startazz]

Hi Joshua,is there a quick way of disabling motor filtering? i only ask as one of my quads i did it to is playing up,yes i did a dump of my old set up but for some strange reason it won't work when i try to put my old set up back in Betaflight, I also sent you an email but i understand if you are to busy to help. Much love and respect from the UK. 😉👍🏾👍🏾👍🏾

[@JaydenLawson]

Thanks for this! You mentioned that you were closely monitoring the motors for overheating. How were you doing that and how would you know when it's a problem?

[@JoshuaBardwell]

Well, if you have an infrared thermometer, you can check the temp of the bell and the windings, in which case they should be below about 70° C. If you have high-temp magnets, they can take more than that, but there's really no reason to push it IMO. If you don't have an infrared thermometer, pinch the bell, and if it is too hot to hold your fingers on it for about 5 seconds, it's too hot.

[@JaydenLawson]

Awesome - thanks so much Joshua Bardwell

[@getchucked1135]

Hey Joshua thanks always for your content you really helped me get into this hobby. I have a tuning question and I'm not sure if this is the place for it but idk where else to put it so here it is.. Just built a QAV-X having odd problem with pitch I term, nose pops up on throttle blips and drops after punches even with I at 85: Bflight 2.9. BB shows motor 1,3 output at 100% and 2,4 at 80% at full throttle which I expected meant CG was off and too much weight in the tail but this is not it. I tried everything even hanging the battery off the front, had to be like 70/30 weight distribution towards the front and the problem was exactly the same. Every part is brand new so idt the rear motors should be making less thrust. Any ideas? I was going to go as far as to mess with the mixer drop the front motors power but I feel like something else is wrong and that's not a solution just a crutch if that even were to work.

[@JoshuaBardwell]

+Nick Tesla back motors higher in forward flight is a normal aerodynamic effect, not CG. Don't mess with the mixer. The same thing must always happen for the copter to fly stable. If you have pitch throttle coupling raise pitch I gain. 85 is pretty high but keep raising it until it fixes or something bad happens

[@getchucked1135]

Ok I will thanks!

[@MrStevegibb]

Would you consider sacrificing smoothness for better lap times and a little propwash. I am asking because you mentioned that to be 95% tuned you shouldn't have propwash but i have found that when making full speed 90 degree snap turns that if tuned for no propwash the quad will wash out or drift out of the corner but with a lower d gain the quad digs into the air and jolts itself into the new direction more aggressively.

[@JoshuaBardwell]

Yes, absolutely. It's the difference between tuning for racing vs. tuning for acro.

[@zsedcz]

Hey, how are you doing, I once ask you if it's possible for your I gain to be higher than your P gain, but Betaflight 3.0 stock I gain is higher than the P gain on pitch, any input on this? thanks. ............d

[@JoshuaBardwell]

I said in answer to your other question that there is no implied relationship between P gain and I gain. The answer stands.

[@SmokinMesa]

Thanks man, watched a heap of PID tuning vids (Inc all yours) and yours are helping me learn to tune the most. Just one question, how do you know if you're motors are too hot from high D? Mine come down a little warm but not hot.

[@matiasmikkonen5563]

if you can hold your finger on them it should be fine

[@SmokinMesa]

they're coming down cooler than the LIPO so.....should be fine :)

[@matiasmikkonen5563]

Yup

[@janprejzek4706]

Hi. Can i see in pid tuning video your betaflight version and your final pids ? That could be cool ;-) . Thanks

[@JoshuaBardwell]

I don't typically go out of my way to show my exact PIDs because I am hoping to teach you the technique to come up with your best PIDs, not just copy mine. My P gain is typically around 60-80 on pitch and roll and around 90-110 on yaw. I gain is typically defautls with betaflight 3.0, or perhaps slightly raised, around 50-60 on pitch especially. D gain is HEAVILY dependent on the copter's noise level, but may be between 30 and 60.

[@elirane85]

when you say high D gains, how high? I heard that it's best to avoid high D if possible but I was wandering what is considered too high? And answer for betaflight 3 if possible :)

[@JoshuaBardwell]

+eliran zach if your motors come down too hot to touch for 5 seconds, that's too hot.

[@nixxinn]

little question joahua, I'v been playing around with the notch filter, and its working butiful, you have any advice on dterm_lowpass and yaw_lowpass settings when using notch ? thanks in advance

[@JoshuaBardwell]

It's really too early to give any general guidelines. In some cases, people have reported being able to reduce or eliminate the use of dterm_lowpass when using the notch.

[@nixxinn]

ok so "dterm_lowpass = 0" is off ?? cos on the blackbox editor when I tryed it, it says dterm lowpass at 0hz I'm a little confused like always :)

[@JoshuaBardwell]

+nixxinn that's off.

[@Linkmindz]

is there a way to eliminate the bounce from landing? I really want smooth landings without disarming...

[@JoshuaBardwell]

Not with air mode active, that's for sure.

[@adamk.3946]

have you tried blheli_s yet? I just got in 20a and 30a racerstar v2 (sunrise cicada rebrand) and I'm finding a lot of things I couldn't seem to tune out of my old lb pro are SO easy to get rid of with these. everything runs cooler and tuning is a lot easier in my opinion.

[@JoshuaBardwell]

Yeah. The _S are very good. I'm flying Cicada 20A on my Canis M4. I'm having some yaw gyro glitch problems with that copter, which is why you're not seeing more of it on the channel.

[@adamk.3946]

+Joshua Bardwell you haven't been able to find the source of the gyro problem? I have read your posts on regroups and it does sound like one hell of a problem to figure out. I'd ask if you have tried this or that, but I'm sure you have exhausted all possibilities. I consider you the Yoda of quadcopters :-)

[@JoshuaBardwell]

+Adam Komarek I think that vibration isolation will fix it. It's just hard to do on such a small copter.

[@smashitfpv3922]

Hi there Joshua. I am currently having an issue with my quad slightly yawing to the right when I do flips and rolls. I am not quite sure what to change on my tune. It seems to do it more on rolls than flips. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks for all your videos as they have helped me out in the past.

[@flowrider8245]

+Joshua Bardwell okay thanks I will try Black Box.

[@smashitfpv3922]

+Joshua Bardwell Hello again. It turns out that I am ever so slightly bumping yaw input as I am reducing throttle to do my rolls and flips. Would you suggest adding some yaw expo to help with this? I am flying with no yaw expo at the moment. I have only been flying acro for about 3 weeks now so please forgive the noobness. Lol : )

[@devling6606]

EDITED: Mentioned the quick speech, but seems my youtube player had bugged out and played everything at like 1.5x speed. Weird. But nevermind ;)

[@Airmonus]

That's how I watch everything :) This way I can consume more.

[@studiochloki]

Hi Joshua, do you know if raising your P can result in a smoked ESC? Just went for a test flight and after about a minute it burned mid-air...

[@JoshuaBardwell]

Very unlikely. P term oscillations are not usually high frequency enough to smoke an ESC. Anything is possible but that wouldn't be my first guess.

[@studiochloki]

Thanks for your fast reply! I hope it was just an unhappy coincidence...

[@jwhit8760]

Wouldn't More I term help with prop wash? What are your thoughts?

[@JoshuaBardwell]

+jwhit87 I don't think I term generally responds fast enough to affect propwash.

[@doondedulin44]

When you say jump up the e.g. p gain. How many points are we talking. Just curious

[@JoshuaBardwell]

I went from about 6 on the DYS props to about 10 on the KK props. That is a pretty big jump though. Normally I would bump about 0.5 to 1.0 at most in a single step.

[@doondedulin44]

Great help. Thanks JB

[@jrkerne]

Hello Joshua.. I am using PIDs close to 90 on my HQ 5x4x3 and I am still having some prop wash. I am really concerned of having D gain too high, so I usually try to keep D at 25ish... What would you say that would be the ceiling for P and D ?

[@JoshuaBardwell]

Let the flight characteristics dictate the tune. I saw somebody flying with P around 16 to 20 and was shocked that it was flying great. I have no idea how. In general, P is in the range of about 4-10 and D is around 20-30. P above perhaps 12 would be suspicious to me, and D higher than around 35-60 is somewhere where motors will start getting hot on most setups IMO.

[@jrkerne]

Ty for the prompt answer Jushua! My question was related to the Martian II 230mm that I am trying to tune, using the SP Racing F3 and HQ 5x4x3 props, 2204 motors emax. I found that my P was good around 90... which I found really high and my D is yet to be tuned, its sitting now around 20 and my I is set as 35ish. My other Martian III 210mm has the default PIDS from Betaflight 2.9.1 (float) and flies awesome... Is it normal to have a P close to 100 or even higher than 100 ? thats my question.

[@JoshuaBardwell]

+Jose Roberto Kerne not abnormal.

[@jrkerne]

OK nice ty! I will finish the tune and I will share the PIDs for this one... its a really weird PID set but... ;-D it feels good flying

[@DatScream]

What is prop wash? One question when my quad is in stationary it just does goes to the left? Why?

[@JoshuaBardwell]

Propwash oscillation is a type of oscillation that comes out when the copter is falling into its own propwash, or when it is in a sharp turn and is "skidding" backwards into its own propwash. Your other question is pretty open-ended. If you are in autolevel mode, you might need accelerometer trim. Also, check to see that your channels center at 1500 us.

[@DatScream]

+Joshua Bardwell thx 👍ok i will check But acro is life

[@ceecrb1]

Yeah yeah yeah, this is all very good but what are your PIDs :P

[@JoshuaBardwell]

Four.

[@jack00scarecrow]

i believe a good tune is 42 just like the meaning of life ;)

[@ceecrb1]

Ah yes, what you get when you multiply 6 x 9.

[@jack00scarecrow]

close but no cigar :)

[@ceecrb1]

+jack00scarecrow wrong! That is the ultimate question, the one the super computer that deep thought designed to find the question calculated it to be. The point, as arthur dent says, "I always thought there was something fundamentally wrong with the universe".

[@knwest2012]

hey josh, what are your thoughts on the Flip 32 Omnibus?

[@JoshuaBardwell]

I think you must really love it, because you have been blowing up my comments section about it!

[@knwest2012]

Hehe, sorry. Im actually looking for a new fc and may try one of em.

[@JoshuaBardwell]

It's a great board. Betaflight OSD, SD card reader. What more could you ask?

[@JoshuaBardwell]

PS: I only snarked a little because I think I answered one of your questions about it, and then there were like three more. But maybe you missed the answer. No biggie.

[@knwest2012]

i did miss that. not sure that was me ?? what did you say?

[@Quick-Flash]

What are you wearing

[@JoshuaBardwell]

Clothing.

[@Quick-Flash]

+Joshua Bardwell k thanks I was confused

[@riosllc]

What the heck are you wearing

[@JoshuaBardwell]

Clothes.

[@riosllc]

is it about impossible to eliminate process without braking escs

[@riosllc]

+riosllc propwash

[@JoshuaBardwell]

Yes. Without braking there is no chance of having a good flying acro quad, never mind propwash.

[@ceecrb1]

There is an old Scottish joke about Kilts which is applicable here: "Is there anything worn under the kilt?". "No, It's all in perfect working order!".