Day 3 Lee and Longstreet Part 2

[@webinator9715]

I enjoyed all 9 pixels of this clip.

[@IrishCarney]

That was hi def to us in those days, and we liked it.

[@tylerdurden4392]

I'd enjoy it if Lee were Super Mario.

[@rc59191]

Lol it's from 10 years ago when you could get away with uploading movies on KZbin.

[@GhostofGomezDawkins]

You can smell the VHS burning

[@GhostofGomezDawkins]

@@IrishCarney Very true, just happy to have a movie/movies rented for the weekend, even if you had to rewind all of them. It's a golden age thought now and I miss it.

[@martymcdonough1111]

Longstreet knew what was coming. He was in command at Marye's Heights where the Confederates did to the Union what the Union was about to do to the Confederates. He saw it, recognized it, advised against it, tried to counter it... but Lee thought he and his men were invincible. And it was his doom.

[@timsindt5245]

The price paid for RE Lee

[@JD1976]

Perhaps. But I always believed that Lee knew it would fail.

[@irohsbelly5829]

@@JD1976 if he knew he would fail then why would he order it? That’d make him sadistic or a lunatic!!! Shouldn’t of attacked on the second day either imo but I’m born and bred yankee, I’m not upset at his blunder

[@temsedgwick9494]

@@irohsbelly5829 IMO, folks sometimes float that conspiracy to defend Lee and insinuate he knew the South was doomed and threw the fight to end the war earlier...

[@sextusempiricus7913]

Lee was running out of options. The Union army had too many men with more on the way.

[@nocturnalrecluse1216]

In reality, the union lines chanted "Fredericksburg!" as the confederate forces approached. That must have sent a chill down their spines.

[@kaledivh]

Especially so considering I would assume most of those Confederate forces were AT Fredericksburg and saw what happened. Horrifying thought to consider as your marching and realizing the role is now reversed.

[@marknewton6984]

Marye's Heights!

[@Nello353]

Fredericksburg changed hand over Twenty times during the war.

[@jonnie106]

My favorite part of the movie. After watching this scene many times, I can still feel II Corps vindication when the survivors of Marye's Heights called it out, as what they took in Virginia they dished out in Pennsylvania and my eyes weep as I join the chant under my breath.

[@greatwave1]

I can't help but imagine how short the American civil war would have been if Lee had accepted the offer to take command of the Federal, army, from Lincoln,with all the resources of the North and Lee's tactical genius, along with his aggressive nature as a commander!

[@univac7677]

Just got back from Gettysburg. Toured the battlefield on horseback, something I highly suggest if you have the opportunity. Many things become more clear when you are there but one main thing that stuck out was that the field where Pickett’s charge started from is actually an uphill grade, you couldn’t really see the union center until you start towards the emmitsburg road. That had to be one of the biggest ‘oh no’ moments if you were making that charge and got to the crest of the hill and really saw the union defenses. I suggest the trip for sure. The monuments, the national cemetery and the visitors center museum are all well done and moving.

[@mikesuggs1642]

The Whole premise of the assault depended on the Artillery driving the Federal Troops from their position and making a gap that could be taken and widened by the charging 3 Divisions of Pickett and Company. Once a lodgment was made. Stuarts Cavalry was in position to harass any Union retreat and it is highly likely the Half of the Union Army still on Culps hill and Cemetery ridge would have been cut off and forced to surrender. However Nothing went Right, Nothing, Not one single thing. The Southern Artillery failed to drive the Union Troops or Guns out of the Center. There was more damage done to Meade's HQ far in the rear than to the actual battle-line due to the many overshoots. The 18 Federal Rifled guns that had been Withdrawn during the initial bombardment was rushed back into place and they did incredible bloody damage to Pickett's lines well before they even reached the road or the Fence that became a additional impediment. Once the Southerners got to within Rifle range, Northern Troops believe it was Vermont or Minnesota soldiers simply enfiladed them by moving forward and delivered devastating volleys into their flank as the Flank guards for Kemper and Garnet fell behind and never caught up. The Offensive might of the Army of Northern Virginia was bled out that day on unequal terms and Lee must take the Blame. The whole thing was folly. It should never have been ordered and Davis should have accepted Lee's offer of Resignation after the battle. It was that bad.

[@univac7677]

@@mikesuggs1642 Very good information. After the artillery bombardment didn't drive the center off, retreating for another day looks wise now. Lee always heard a clock ticking in the back of his head. It was always the 4th Quarter and he knew he couldn't compete with the population or industrial might of the north. Also, he had a good record up until then, seems like all those items factor in his choice to keep moving ahead. As a side note, we took a horse guided trail ride around the battlefield, I highly suggest that.

[@BlueJDMMR2]

Dont forget that sweltering July heat. With all that gear on you and that heavy 1855 springfield, you'd be exhausted under the duress of combat making that charge

[@ronschafer8194]

Been there three times and seen what you clearly describe. It was a suicide charge over open ground.

[@barrydlewis7768]

I have been there twice and was moved to tears both times.

[@RDR1089]

The book “The Killer Angels” by Michael Sahara, is a must read for anyone who is interested in the battle of Gettysburg. It gives a vivid account from both sides and will give you a new perspective on what the Generals …(and some regular soldiers) thought about the battle nd the war in general.

[@marknewton6984]

Great book!

[@garyscherer5275]

Outstanding book!

[@mkeogh76]

I've warmed-up to Martin Sheen's performance over the years. Initially, I was offput by his less than physically imposing presence and obvious discomfort on horseback, but I've come to appreciate his ability to capture Lee's mindset. His performance is even more remarkable considering how he came to this film relatively late due the production only turning to him after it failed to land Robert Duvall. Ten years later, Maxwell did finally get Duvall to play Lee for "Gods & Generals", but he had significantly aged within those 10 years and was a shell of himself. One thinks what a terrific Lee a still vigorous Duvall would have made in 1992, but sadly that didn't happen. Still, Sheen as a 2nd choice did a good job and his performance has aged well.

[@cdjhyoung]

Consider, please, that historians believe that Lee had suffered a mild heart attack shortly before the Gettysburg battle and was suffering from dysentery at the time of the battle. Sheen's low energy depiction of Lee may very well be historically accurate.

[@Johnchuk3]

I visited the field those guys had to cover under constant artillery, and it was probably the saddest monument to a single act of bravery I've ever seen. Its a huge long slope upward in the july sun with nowhere to go and nothing to hide behind. It just stares back at you, and its so damn quiet.

[@univac7677]

Agreed. Walking out of the woods into that upward sloping ground that was well defended had to be the worse.

[@markproulx1472]

I agree. Even though I have visited the site, I still cannot imagine how awful it must have been to be part of the charge.

[@Rockhound6165]

I was just there last week and I'm not ashamed to say that I was moved to tears standing and looking at those battlefields. It was an honor to even look at them.

[@kbholla]

Johnchuk I've been there too. Pretty solemn.

[@happilyretiredmark2964]

Brave men for sure! Long live Dixie. Kind of glad they can't see all the crap we have to put up with now in this country.

[@michaelmckinnon1591]

This series of scenes was taken from history, James Longstreet understood the mathematics of the charge

[@daniellee8162]

When technical analysis started to bloom lol. Just a joke, I'm sure math was used in a strategy.

[@koookeee]

"If the men would ever have reached the clump of trees, they would have seen a Virginia Monument." Kate Beaton

[@bruceborneman]

I still cannot fathom why Lee thought that was a good idea. He basically asked all of his ranks to commit assisted suicide

[@heihei3453]

I do like the Lost Causers who blame everything on Longstreet. Even one of the Park Rangers at Gettysburg pulled the whole "Longstreet's fault" argument.

[@nunyabizness9045]

fault should go to Heth

[@OroborusFMA]

Come on, don't sugar coat it!

[@nunyabizness9045]

+nathanieldayspring00 Heth was ordered not to engage but he did. So it was his fault

[@nunyabizness9045]

+nathanieldayspring00 the shoes in Gettysburg was a myth. General Ewell traveled thorough there a few days earlier.

[@nunyabizness9045]

+nathanieldayspring00 There was no mention of shoes having anything to do with the Battle of Gettysburg until 14 years after it happened. In 1877, Confederate General Henry Heth wrote, “Hearing that a supply of shoes was to be obtained in Gettysburg, eight miles distant from Cashtown, and greatly needing shoes for my men, I directed General Pettigrew to go to Gettysburg and get these supplies.” Problem is, there were no shoe factories anywhere near Gettysburg in 1863. If there were General Ewell would have plundered it a day earlier. Roads took the armies to Gettysburg. It was difficult to travel through south central Pennsylvania without passing through Gettysburg.

[@GN-jn1ty]

Marin Sheen was a bit of amazing casting - he was so good in this role.

[@ribonucleic]

Hard to imagine his version of Lee having slaves whipped and brined.

[@Zutakameku1]

Longstreet did everything he could to stop it from happening

[@markbrandis5684]

these actors are so amazing!

[@thomassnapp1341]

Longstreet has been criticized for years for his delay in engaging the union army at Gettysburg. He understood that an attack on the heights that the union army held would be futile. But his suggestion to Lee that the army of Northern Virgina be "redeployed" and march on Washington was wise. Mead would have had no option but to follow them and then, they could turn and engage Mead on ground of their own choosing.. This was undoubtedly the wisest choice under the circumstances.

[@aldousjosea.castro1887]

+Thomas Snapp Except Meade won't do that. Meade was determined to fight a defensive battle. Marching on Washington would only mean the Rebels would be caught between Washington the Meade.

[@roguishpaladin]

The politicians wouldn't let Meade allow Longstreet access to Washington. He'd either be forced to attack or else be cashiered for a general who would attack. Plus, holding Washington just might compel the US to allow the rebels to negotiate a peace.

[@thomassnapp1341]

No. The Confederate Army would have been in FRONT of Mead on the way to Washington. Mead and the Union Army would have been coming up behind, chasing the Confederate Army on the way to Washington.

[@thomassnapp1341]

The "politicians" wouldn't have had much say in the matter. If the Confederate Army pulled out of Gettysburg and moved on Washington, "double-time", Mead would have had to chase them. The Confederate Army would have been hours ahead of them when they finally realized what was going on.

[@thomassnapp1341]

No "cake walk" but a pretty easy assault with the entire Confederate Army.

[@davidrodgersNJ]

Lee makes me think of Yamato: a brilliant leader with a hopeless cause.

[@Emanresuadeen]

Lee makes me think of Yamato too. But because while both were epic blunderers, not geniuses, both were enshrined, post war, as face saving symbols.

[@dardalion3199]

@@Emanresuadeen not the first 2 years he didn't blunder. But you are both correct

[@joshuadesautels]

You mean Yamamoto. But yes. Or Rommel.

[@wildfire9280]

You could almost say his cause was… lost?

[@petersampson5202]

GOD BLESS MY AWESOME FRIEND MOCTESUMA ESPARZA. I AM SO VERY PROUD OF YOU AND SO VERY HAPPY FOR YOU MR. ESPARZA. THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH.

[@bobbyricigliano2799]

If only Robert E. Lee could travel forward through time and consult with the youtube peanut gallery of basement dwelling amateur military tacticians, he could have carried the day at Gettysburg.

[@lucius1976]

+Bobby Ricigliano Or he could have read Sun Tzu

[@christinedavis2476]

+Bobby Ricigliano - I'm not sure that General Lee didn't know that Longstreet was correct. Lee knew that "we can not always expect to win victories", and Lee, more than anyone, knew that the Confederacy could not win militarily.

[@Darthbelal]

+Bobby Ricigliano I get kinda annoyed when people start saying the Lee screwed up at Gettysburg and he should've done this or that. In the end, Lee EARNED the respect of love of his men and of the Confederacy and very, very few people could match that kind of leadership.

[@Retsler54]

+lucius1976 I guess he had done that.

[@thomassaucier3677]

This is gold

[@nickroberts-xf7oq]

"I've always been cautious...very cautious." 😂

[@richmondmemedepot7180]

The usual saluting 'etiquette' if you will, is that the superior salutes first, then the subordinate. Notice how Longstreet, the subordinate, saluted first - then Lee. A sign of great respect

[@manilajohn0182]

You have that backwards. The subordinate salutes the superior first, and holds the salute. The superior then returns the salute. After- and only after- the superior returns the salute and has dropped his arm, does the subordinate drop his arm.

[@kharilane1340]

As a black man I have no love for the Confederate States. However, I do have profound respect for both Lee and Longstreet as military men. Lee was usually a great tactician, but he made his fatal mistake here. That mistake was not letting Longstreet's suggestions on how and where to attack be put into action. While I'm glad for my kin that they did fail, it is still hard to watch Longstreet being so right about what's going to happen and to have Lee's overconfidence and impatience to end the war cause his immediate defeat at Gettysburg and the eventual defeat of the CSA.

[@crazyinq8617]

While I'm not to keen on Gen Longstreet, I've been reading much about General Lee and have come to respect his character more and more. Excellent Comment, Sir! Thanks for adding to the discussion.

[@gonzaleo]

"Those are Hancock's boys".

[@harleymccartney7339]

Never can get over how a military genius like Lee suddenly went dumb in this instance. As if it was meant to be.

[@amaree9732]

My great grandfather caught a rifle ball at Gettysburg. It rolled off the counter at the giftshop.

[@docinohio]

this is an example of how close Longstreet was to Lee and how comfortable their relationship must have been-- in this era, to criticize, constructively and with candor, Lee's plan was something that just didn't happen....many if not most seemed to worship or at least accept whatever Lee ordered or did as sacred fact and no one questioned or second-guessed him until of course after the war at which time Longstreet became the scapegoat and the sacrificial lamb so to speak for Gettysburg having been lost. It has been said that Longstreet did 3 things that caused the South to hate him: he criticized Lee, he was right, and later he became Republican!

[@roguishpaladin]

Doctor Doom Wrong Republican. The Southern Strategy completely switched around which party carried the banner for civil rights. To be a Republican in that day was to be a Northern-sympathizing technocrat who believed that the federal government had the right to compel states to subscribe to the tenets of civil liberties.

[@Rockhound6165]

Doctor Doom to be a Republican in the South during Reconstruction was near suicide. White Republicans would often be lynched right along with the blacks. This is a fact.

[@norms3913]

docinohio cause Stonewall Jackson was Lee's true tactician of battles but Jackson got killed at the battle of bulls run

[@MarkhasSteelfort]

Longstreet is at least as able as Jackson. He was the most reliable general of the war.

[@tedpuckett8066]

also Catholic.

[@internetenjoyer1044]

love that this film doesnt spoonfeed you a "this is so stooopid" narrative like most military ilms do. they have both men disagreeing and giving plausible reasons for their view. we know whats about to happen, we know Lee is wrong, but he has a reason behind his mistake

[@LKaramazov]

Never gets old!

[@billycampbell854]

Sooooo sad music, sooooo sad a time for all Americans.🖋 😷

[@disco07]

General Longstreet, god go with you cause I wont

[@johnfarina6155]

It's just possible that Lee was not the genius he has been made out to be.

[@jameshepburn4631]

When I was a schoolboy, my grandma told me when she was young the older people called the War Between The States “Lincoln’s War”. The Daughters of the Confederacy also had an unfavorable opinion of Gen’l Longstreet. After the war he was a diplomat, an ambassador I think, for the restored United States. He was also a pallbearer at the funeral of Gen’l /President Grant who was his friend from their cadet days at West Point.

[@cjy6967]

Longstreet was sharp as tack. They both said I lived a soldier life all my life. Let Hill lead the attack.

[@Eliot17]

General Lee went full Stannis attacking winterfell here!!!!!!

[@alexG106]

"No 15,000 men ever made will take that hill today."

[@wolfkafitz9461]

Such a heavy load of artillery shells. Doing so little damage. And then - a full feu d'enfer (hellfire), as Napoleon would call it. Pity those poor boys in grey. :(

[@thrustkicktkd841]

The Confederates were using new fuses on their artillery shells, which burned longer than the one's used prior to July 3rd. Hence the artillery barrage was ineffective. Also, his guns were aimed straight rather than at an angle reducing the area of the explosions. 1% change, 100% difference.

[@IrishCarney]

@@thrustkicktkd841 For want of a nail the kingdom was lost. Just a slight difference in the angle and instead of plowing up the dirt behind the Federal center, the cannons are turning the men there into bloody spam, and the charge succeeds. No need for more elaborate counterfactuals like withdrawing to fight elsewhere. Just nudge the cannon to a slightly different angle...

[@billandrews]

Three months before Gettysburg, Lee wrote to the Confederate President that in his opinion, given the growing "disparity" between the Confederacies ability to resupply its men, and the Unions growing ability to resupply its men, that "military victory against the Union was no longer possible". "What we need," wrote Lee, is a "defining victory on Northern soil", so as to embolden our allies in the North pushing Lincoln for a "negotiated settlement to the war". As Gettysburg began Lee knew he would NEVER again have an Army this large, nor would the Union have one as small. This was the Confederacies last stand, he needed a victory here, or it was over for the Confederacy. In 1862, at the Seven Days Campaign, ending at Frazier's Farm. The North and South we arrange the same as at Gettysburg. The North on the high ground to the South of the Confederates. Lee combined Jackson's and Longstreet's artillery and focused all their fire on the entrenched Union soldiers on the high ground. However, the Union held the High ground, as soon as the Confederates set up their cannon they faced withering fire from the Union Guns backing up the entrenched soldiers. The South was forced to place their cannon at their greatest range, diminishing their effect. Longstreet learned from the failure of cannon against entrenched troops sitting on the high ground at Frazier's Farm, so did Lee, but this was the Confederacies last stand, Lee also knew that. Lee was watching his Army get whittled down by the superior numbers of Union soldier and cannon. He could see the end, and so he gambled...and lost. Lee didn't make a mistake at Gettysburg, it is what he wanted, it is what he needed. He just lost to superior numbers, and some bad decisions, like not taking Little Roundtop on Day one, before the Union arrived. They gave the Union the high ground, that was the beginning of the end of Gettysburg. Rule #1. Always take the high ground.

[@tedstout7439]

Bill Andrews Well written and postulated.

[@PrestenSPapel]

Bill Andrews Well written and informative. The Union army outnumbered the Confederates 2 to 1 from the start of the war, and the South really couldn’t absorb the catastrophic number of casualties at Gettysburg as well as the North could. This was truly a chance Lee had to take. The confederates already lost 15,000 troops at Chickamauga, so when his army lost 25,000 at Gettysburg, that really was the beginning of the end.

[@minerran]

Lee understood from the beginning that the South could never win a strict war of attrition. Instead, he followed the only possible strategy; make bold attacks deep into enemy territory in order to demoralize the enemy thru a series of early victories with the goal being a negotiated peace in Southern terms. He almost got it too, because the union army commanders who came before Grant were mediocre at best. The south has produced some of the finest military commanders that ever took to the field. Lee and Patton are two such examples. The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was a page from the same playbook. Its the only play when fighting an adversary with superior resources.

[@jennifergreen994]

Had Lee listen to Longstreet's suggestion to position the rebel army in a way that threatened D.C. and fought on the ground of their choosing, he might have achieved that 'Northern Soil' victory you suggest he was desperate for.

[@trekker3468]

The British military observer in the Confederate army said im his memoir that none of Lee's subordinates thought it was a good idea to be fighting there. A mathematical formula developed during WW1 indicated 30k men would have needed for Pickets charge. The dead and wounded would have crippled Lee's army.

[@jaymemangano1154]

They'll have The Wall of Fredericksburg that'll we had At Frederickburg!

[@hackerx9477]

But that's Hancock's men out there. And they ain't gonna run.

[@larry1824]

Both actors superb

[@drjimbomac]

While the debate rages on, strategically the ANV had to break the Union line or ultimately fail. Lee rightly discerned the weakest part of that line was at cemetery ridge and focused his power at it. The attack failed, but it was Lee's best shot that day at victory.

[@drjimbomac]

+Mark Merzweiler Yes he did! Meade probably realized that this was the only option available to Lee. Meade was a nominal commander, but his insight during this campaign was right on target.

[@scantrontheimmortal]

beg pardon but couldnt the ANV have disengaged and fought the federal army under more advantageous ground closer to Washington or at least a northern production center?the only strategic contest about Gettysburg was that whatever positions the federal army took,was a speed bump/roadblock against the ANV,and the confederates could have literally maneuver in the face of numerical superior numbers?

[@heihei3453]

Meade is often very underrated. His command of logistics during Gettysburg was very good.

[@Zarastro54]

+Jim McNeely You mean he _wrongly_ discerned that the weakest part of the line was Cemetery Ridge. Mead was both using that area as a staging ground and resting ground for men going to/coming from the flanks, and he predicted Lee would probably attack the center, so strengthened it.

[@CinemaManne]

bh5496 Lee wasn't wrong about it being the weakest it was only held by 2 out of 3 divisions of the 2nd Corp. the 3rd division was near little round top supporting the 5th Corp the 3rd Corp was shattered in reserve the 6th Corp was divided half on either flank and the remnants of the 1st and 11th plus 12th on cemetery and Culps hill.

[@danieltossounian1962]

I actually walked the field and you can’t see very far up ahead as it slopes upwards…it was like a human shooting gallery.

[@CptJimEd]

...Lee needed to destroy the Army of the Potomac....the clock was ticking...

[@TheFacefinder]

one of the greatest mistakes ever made in armed conflict.

[@richardpfaff4461]

I agree. Sun Tzu would not approve.

[@davyt0247]

@@richardpfaff4461 Sun Tzu would have been pulling his hair out if he had been with Lee those three days.

[@davidnikoloff3211]

Modern Civil War scholars like to attack the idea that Gettysburg was the “turning point” of the War. They say Vicksburg or later battles were the true points when the South lost hope of winning. When you read contemporaneous accounts of the men who fought and died there you find that they knew that the battle they were about to fight was all important. You can’t look back without seeing that the South was risking everything those three days in July. Their human and physical resources were spent after the loss. A defensive war was all they could do. The Union would only lose if they were willing to lose. The South could never again hope to impose victory.

[@totallynotalpharius2283]

That's Longstreet's way of saying " yeah this is a fuck up I don't want my hands on it

[@TheBerylknight]

Longstreet's plan wasn't any better. It was foolish for him to think Mead would have just hurled his forces at some defensive line when the Confederate army was extended so far north and way from their supply. In fact: Mead proved that he wouldn't have when he neglected to do so while Lee was retreating. The whole purpose of the Gettysburg campaign was for Lee to strike hard and fast and do some serious damage to the Union Forces on Union Soil. Which in all fairness he accomplished. Gettysburg may have been a confederate defeat - but he inflicted a lot of casualties on the north. That was a very bloody battle. Lee knew that the only way the confederacy had a chance to win was to make the war so costly and bloody that the North would decide it just wan'st worth it anymore and give up. And he almost accomplished it. Go read about all the rioting and internal civil strife that broke out in the north after Gettysburg. Anti-war mobs were literally taking over Manhattan.

[@LordZontar]

@@TheBerylknight And all that antiwar strife was not enough to turn the Northern public solidly against the war, nor deter the determination of the national government to win. Lee was nowhere near accomplishing any such object as to make the war so costly in blood that the North would grow exhausted of it and concede secession and the breakup of the republic. Such a strategy works only if your side has all the time in the world to carry it off against an enemy that cannot bring its full military force to bear and the Confederacy did not have that luxury. Meade lost 23,000 casualties but they constituted slightly less than a quarter of his total strength while Lee's 23,000 casualties were a third of his army, and the South's manpower reserve was thinning while the North effectively had a bottomless supply of manpower to draw upon. Also, the South was, far more significantly, being strategically defeated in the Western Theatre. The day after Gettysburg, Vicksburg fell to Grant. The Mississippi River was then wholly in Northern control and the Confederacy cut in half, with four of its states effectively taken out of the war altogether and Texas isolated. By November, Union control of Tennessee would be ironclad and the Federal armies poised to strike right for the Confederate interior and just at the time when Union military leadership had markedly improved with the rise of commanding generals who knew their business. The blockade was increasingly strangling Southern trade and by 1863 the Confederacy's economy was shrinking while the North's industrial economy expanded geometrically. Every day the war dragged on, the North grew stronger and the South weaker. There was no time for a Fabian strategy to win that war for the Confederacy. And that same Northern public that rumbled with discontent but did not break in 1863 would the next year overwhelmingly reelect Lincoln and give the Republicans solid majorities in both houses of Congress while the Confederacy began to politically disintegrate when it became clear that the North was winning the war. The South's defeat was only a mere question of time the day after Lee began his retreat back to Virginia, having failed in a campaign born out of sheer desperation and wishful thinking.

[@TheBerylknight]

@@LordZontar It almost was. The most intense rioting and civil unrest happened after Gettysburg. New York City in particular. Even Lincoln himself thought he was going to lose reelection. So you're just wrong to say his strategy came no where close to working. It did come close. And it was the only possible way the south had to win, and Lee knew it. The south didn't have the luxury of playing a game of attrition. The North had the Confederacy completely under siege and was starving it to death. Lee had to act, and he did. Longstreet was also sullen and lazy at Gettysburg, and contributed to the loss. If he hadn't taken all day to set up the charge it might have succeeded. In either case, Lee didn't have the time to play defense. He had to strike hard and then get out, and that's what he did.

[@LordZontar]

@@TheBerylknight No, actually it didn't. The antiwar riots in New York later that year and Lincoln's melancholy about his reelection chances in early 1864 are irrelevant to that equation. Lee did not have the manpower to pull it off, and the Union centre was too strongly fortified and on high ground. Nor was it possible to assemble the forces for that charge any faster than it could have been executed. The Army of Northern Virginia had already taken heavy casualties through the first two days of battle and was essentially tapping its last available ready reserves for the attack. He struck hard and lost, and got out because its position was no longer viable. And he had to get back to be able to secure the defence of Richmond, which was always the limiting factor in Lee's scope of movement.

[@TheBerylknight]

​@@LordZontar They aren't even close to "irrelevant". Both the extent of the civil unrest and the looming political fallout that had even Lincoln himself convinced he was going to lose is a testament to just how close Lee came to making the subjugation of the south too bloody for the North to continue. And that was the ONLY way Lee had a chance to win considering the odds against him. Lee also attacked the north at the height of confederate power - which is the only window he had if such an attack was ever going to be successful. HIs "manpower" was never going to get any better (it was just going to get smaller). Was it a long shot? Sure. But it was the only shot he had. There was no "defending" Richmond or the Confederacy. As I just told you, there was no winning that war through attrition period. Lee had to bring the war up north, and he did that at Gettysburg (which was the deadliest battle in the Civil War). Lee was playing to win. Longstreet was playing to lose the long way. The only other general who understood this was Stonewall Jackson. Those two were by far the most competent generals the south had. And if Lee had Jackson at Gettysburg he would have probably pulled it off too. Instead he he had men like Longstreet and others who couldn't see past their own short-sighted and conservative strategies that would have done nothing but prolong the inevitable. You're also wrong that Longstreet could not have assembled that charge faster. Every Historian I have ever read agrees he was sullen and lethargic at Gettysburg. He was just one of many officers that day that let Lee down.

[@jeffthacker569]

Lee was out of his mind. I truly believe he knew the war ended there by one of two outcomes. He wanted the win, but I believe he knew it was folly.

[@mikesuggs1642]

Lee did more to aid the Union cause in this one day then any Union General maybe with the exception of Sherman and Grant did in the whole damn War! I mean this one charge literally destroyed the offensive power of the Army of Northern Virginia? Picketts Division was freshly recruited and well lead with many rising stars in command including Armistead, Garrett, Kemper, and many others! It was totally decimated and torn to pieces in a fruitless and impossible charge! This was either a example of Lee trying to blindly do too much when many other options we’re still available including falling back into Maryland and closer to Washington or Lee really being a mole aiding the Union cause by intentionally sending his Army to its doom!!!

[@DannyBurch-bo5mn]

As Stoic as thay we're I wonder if this Conversation would have taken place Lee was like a God ,the south had already won Numerous battles.

[@chasemcnab7610]

Wonder if that line about Napoleon was an intentional commentary on Lees (and many other contemporary commanders) aging thoughts on military tactics. Lee was thinking he could just have his men march across open ground, drive the feds off the hill with a big enough artillery barrage, and somehow win like it was still the days of vast lines of men firing volleys into each other, but modern guns made such attacks suicidal, and everything hinged on driving the feds away, an option Lee had, inadvertently, made inconceivable for the union army.

[@IdealX-fr4eg]

Longstreet is a battle tactician he should have been listened too. Sun Tzu would have

[@sethbrunetti1181]

The smoke stank the hill up.. 39 cannons

[@tonyjanney1654]

I thought Martin Sheen did the best Robert E. Lee I have ever witnessed on screen. All of the actors did well in this movie. They all had a feel for their character. Jeff Daniels was Joshua Chamberlain.

[@josephderose2890]

HAPPY. TO SAY. SO..WE NEEDED. TO WIN. THAT. WAR. THANK. GOD. WE. DID...GOD BLESS. ALL THOSE LOST SOULS

[@SithLordmatthew]

Course lets pretend they did break the union lines then what would have what remained of 15,000 men? Now low on amo tired and shot to hell probably less then 5,000 men fit for battle. And the union with 50,000 men to their right and 50,000 more men to their left. Even if they had broken the lines they would of been popped like a zit between those two forces. Had they broken the line it probably would of been a far worse disaster Lee would of had to commit more men to reinforce them. He didn't have anywhere near enough so he throws 25,000 more in and they would of all been annihilated.

[@odysseusrex5908]

Interesting analysis. I have always imagine Mead withdrawing some distance, but not too far, to the north, and taking up a new position and Lee, having expended most of his ammunition, including 90% of his artillery shells, and with one third of his army being casualties, would have had no choice but to just return to Virginia. But, you could be right.

[@epyon1983]

And another corp in reserve

[@donchichivagabond1578]

Great observation with a more plausible conclusion from victory to swift annihilation.

[@julioklj8]

I don’t think so. If they could have taken the ridge then the Union Army is split in two. You’re right that Lee would have to reinforce there but I believe Meade would have to retreat in order to not have his army split into two parts. Still a retreat would not have destroyed the AOP as was Lee’s objective.

[@SantomPh]

@@julioklj8 Meade made the fish hook formation in order to reinforce any line that needed assistance. Near the end of Amistead's breakthrough Hancock had ordered the flanks to close in on Kemper and Garnet's groups, effectively cutting them off from retreat. As Hood predicted, the Charge came under enfilade fire and suffered greatly as they had no flank protection from the expended artillery and missing cavalry.

[@fantasia55]

Meade correctly predicted that Lee would attack the center.

[@nachisenpai9127]

That's Chris Taylor ancestor and Sgt. Barnes ancestor.

[@gonzaleo]

Nice

[@hvymettle]

The price of victory at Chancellorsville was the cost of defeat at Gettysburg. The attrition to the Confederate high command was exposed at Gettysburg. With his army strung out on exterior lines confronting an enemy superior in strength concentrated on interior lines, Lee was unable to get his corps commanders to coordinate their actions for a concerted blow. While Pickett's Charge was a desperate undertaking doomed to fail in hindsight, it did buy Lee and the Confederacy a 10 month respite in the east which allowed Longstreet and two divisions to be detached and help win the Battle of Chickamauga. After witnessing Lee's doomed assault, Meade was hesitant to order a frontal assault against fortified positions and so allowed Lee to escape across the Potomac. Lee and Meade spent the rest of the year playing cat and mouse in northern Virginia with Meade finally backing off when he saw Lee's Mine Run defenses. Not until Grant came east was there a Union general who was willing to order the same sacrifice of life that Lee had at Gettysburg, which is what it finally took for victory.

[@MaverickSteffen]

I think Lee knew it was now or never. The Confederacy screwed itself by not raising taxes, thereby limiting resources and support. Lee made the same mistake William Wallace made at Falkirk.

[@dclark142002]

Ah...the fatalities of Chancellorsville. Lee did not realize that his success there with a frontal attack only succeeded because the Federal Army was ordered off the field by its concussed leader...over the vociferous objections of the Union Corps commanders who rightly knew they were winning the day. With that example still fresh in his mind...Lee determines that he cannot afford (insufficient ammunition) to attempt to maneuver to find a better decisive battle...and to stake it all on the throw of the dice. The frontal attack worked before...perhaps it might work again. Except that it was Meade up there on that hill...a competent commander who had excellent relationships with all of his corps commanders...who was certain that Lee's next move would be predictably to hit the center, and was proven correct.

[@Stoolie33]

In the mold of the youtube comment section military geniuses, I must offer my tactics that would have won the battle and makes Lee look like an amateur. First, I would have called in a B-52 arclight strike on the Union lines. Second, a pinpoint artillery barrage on the copse of trees with 155MM guns. Then, a massive armored assault in the center with a helicopter air assault on either flank. Strike up the band! Seriously, Lee did whatever he could. It was a very close-fought engagement that could have gone either way.

[@DustinKing77]

> It was a very close-fought engagement that could have gone either way. It was Lee doing something that fucked over this battle, Longstreet could see what was going to happen from the start. Pickett's charge was obvious suicide, not just in hindsight, but to many of those who were there too. For every free man that there was in the confederacy, there was 7 in the union. A defensive campaign was the only type of campaign that could be fought.

[@carlrs15]

he could have withdrawn his troops back south

[@ogdocvato]

The Union would have F-4 or F-15 fighters to destroy Confederate tactical and strategic bombers. Furthermore, radar-guided SAMs would have to be accounted for.

[@TheCShowHostedbyChris]

Stoolie33 it wasn't that close

[@64MDW]

It would appear you are as delusional as those who sought the South would win back in 1861.

[@wolfkafitz9461]

With all Respect. General Lee should have shown more trust...

[@georgegordon6630]

What Longstreet never quite grasped is that, though he was right, there is a lot of acres between commanding a corp and commanding the army, Lee knew Richmond was unable to offer any support, while it was true that the plan was always to fight a defensive battle, Lee was there, there was a great urgency, he needed to force an outcome, looking back, of course he should have retreated, but he did not really have any option other than attack..Longstreet was right, he knew it so gave Colonel Alexander the authority to start the attack, unable to do it himself...in fact, later that morning, General Pickett came to Longstreet and asked if he was taking orders from a colonel

[@odinsavenger4965]

Confidence kills.

[@christianburrell5564]

Frankly, I think Lee was determined to win a straight up attacking fight. If you go back and look, he often won due to incompetence on the Union side or, granted, very gutsy tactics. The south did not have a victory in which they had the initiative from the outset and drove the union from the field. So in the eyes of foreign nations, there was always a question of how good were they. I think he was obsessed to show that his army could win even in a straight up, attack.

[@ronnyrono782]

I notice a lot of Robert E Lee fans blame Longstreet for the Gettysburg defeat. My question is why Lee never lost confidence in his old "Warhorse" if he was so undependable. It would make Lee a poor Judgment of character and an even poorer General. General Meade and his staff simply out guessed Lee at Gettysburg.

[@manilajohn0182]

Lee had no alternative but to attack or abandon the campaign in failure- and write off Vicksburg (lifting the siege of which was the strategic objective of the campaign).

[@jaymemangano1154]

A foot of Napoleon Sir.

[@tonypatrizzio1926]

Lee to Longstreet “ Their is no one I trust more “ except for now because I’m gonna ignore everything you say .

[@williamwyckoff3963]

Lee should of listened to my distant cousin LongStreet and with Drew and headed to Washington and got on ground of there choosing then the North would be forced to attack. Longing on a Historical theater .!

[@sananto6896]

Lee's point was correct under the circumstances. It was a good time to attack. Every decision made is a gamble.

[@thehistoricalgamer]

President Eisenhower got in a lot of trouble in the South. Ike bought a house in Gettysburg because of his feeling of connection to the place, and when he was President he had former British Field Marshall Montgomery visit him in Gettysburg. They walked the field and Eisenhower said he would have fired any general who ordered Pickets Charge, the South did not take kindly to the criticism when his comment became public knowledge.

[@LordZontar]

@@thehistoricalgamer Yeah, truth sucks but it is nonetheless the truth no matter how butthurt it makes you feel.

[@Mike-01234]

Video is so out of focus can't even make out the faces it's amazing we watched TV like this for years I guess we just got used to not seeing any detail.

[@IrishCarney]

Yeah, it's like we all spent decades watching TV with vaseline smeared on the screen, or through those frosted contact paper covers on bathroom windows.

[@j.m.youngquist419]

Once again, the arrogance of Lee. Cost the South the Battle and ultimately the war.

[@oceandark3044]

This is going to start as an unrelated point, but I promise I'll get it back around to Gettysburg. So I play FFXIV, and have played MMORPGs, raiding for years. And one of those things you get used to is losing early, but keeping on going because you don't know for sure you've lost yet. You've recovered, you're standing, you PROBABLY won't make the hard enrage DPS check, but you continue on because you have to try. It's either that, or just die. As much as Lee can be criticized, I think at this point, he is right that he has to try, no matter how suicidal it looks. He was right in their previous discussion that the Union army will only be getting stronger and better equipped, and their home states have nothing left for them so they will only become weaker and worse supplied. Retreat not only doesn't change the calculus, it ruins his vaunted Confederate morality that even allows him to consider making this kind of a charge. He, in essence, is pretty sure he's lost too much already to make the DPS check of driving off the Union, but it's either win or die here or surely die later. He will never be so strong as now, his enemy will never be this weak, and if he can't win here and now he won't likely ever again. This doesn't change Longstreet's assessment's inherent correctness. He is entirely correct that Lee's current forces cannot take the Union position, and more importantly even if they can they have nothing to reinforce and hold the position with so they will be subject to an immediate counterattack. Lee is picking the only place he could feasibly make any possible dent, though the defensive position is almost impregnably strong. So in this case, Longstreet is the raid officer explaining to the leader that he figures the run is hosed. So, in short, I think Lee knew this charge wasn't going to likely succeed, but he is probably correct that he has to try it. It has a slim chance of success based entirely on bravado of their forces and prayed-for fear in the enemy, but retreating damns the Confederacy to a slow, painful death. In a way, I can't blame him; he had to make the attempt even though I think he knows perfectly well that Longstreet is correct. As an officer, though, you're supposed to demonstrate absolute conviction that you can carry out your duty for morale purposes, though; if you show any doubt to your men, they'll buckle at the slightest sign of failure and try to save themselves.

[@jlittle1998]

They would have been hanged, if it weren't for most of them being part of that "Long Grey Line" or West Point Graduates. I believe that is what saved them from the noose, since their enemies were also part of that same "Line."

[@ionocinneide617]

Why does Longstreet give Lee a (for lack of a better term) “modern British Army style” salute, with his palm out, whereas Lee returns it with “Modern Royal Navy style” salute, with his palm down? Is there an actual historical reason for that? Or is that just a fuck up on the director’s part?

[@TheCShowHostedbyChris]

Lee was right beside him on Maryes heights

[@timothycunningham7352]

Gettysburg was the price the CSA paid for Lee

[@williamwyckoff3963]

Lee should listened to my cousin ! Don't make that charge !

[@pascharay]

lee was delusional

[@markmerzweiler909]

He won lots of times under great odds, so in some ways it is understandable.

[@wayneantoniazzi2706]

I can understand Lee's desire to destroy a Union army on Union soil and most likely causing the concomitant loss of will by the North to carry on with the war. But his own experience at Malvern Hill in 1862 and what he did to the Union Army at Fredericksburg in December of that year should have told him the days of overwhelming force breaking through a defensive line in a frontal assault were over. It wasn't the smoothbore musket and 6 pounder field artillery days any more. Technology had passed the advantage to the defender. He never made that mistake again but the damage was already done. It would take almost two years for the war to be lost but the South would never be as strong again as it was in 1863. Was Lee overconfident? Most likely. He'd beaten the Army of the Potomac so many times he may have thought they wouldn't stand. But this time they did.

[@fornoreason8822]

Lee is overrated but I like how he leads with a calm-like demeanor.

[@robertwaid3579]

In all My Year's of Studying the Civil War, & Reading about it plus Talking about it. Never have I Said what I'm going to Say Now. Had Stonewall Jackson Not Died after The Victory at Chancellorsville's, and the South's Outcome had been The Same, with Jackson Injured Severely. And He wouldn't of Been available at The Battle of Gettysburg anyways. My Theory is that Lee was most Definitely WRONG, to Attack the Union Center on the Third Day. As General Longstreet Advised Him, Not to Do then? As He Stated then!! There was No 15,000 Men, that could Penetrate & Break 💔 the Center of That Line, that Day or any Other Day. When Longstreet Walked away from Gen. Robert E. Lee, apparently by written Accounts. That was when He should have Stood Firm. Refused Lee's Order to take, The Command of the Attack, by Not believing in it. And then having Lee, forced to Give it too the Next Superior Officer on His Staff. The Attack became Known ever after as R E Lee's, Folly & Biggest Mistake, ultimately Costing The South it's Cause. As well as Thier loss of the ability to take the Fight to the Northern Army ever Again. From that Day on Lee was always Fighting A Defensive War, rather than a Entirely, Strategically Calculated One. From that Day until the Surrender almost Two years Later. Thank You for Sharing & the Opportunity too Comment.

[@NealSaget-zr2el]

All of the networks should play this on the 4th of July for everyone to see the truth about what was sacrificed. grandfathgrandfather is

[@MaxxCoyote]

"There is no one I trust more...But I'm also not going to listen to a damn word you say."

[@dclark142002]

Longstreet never said anything about the right or not doing this attack.

[@jdsmith542]

Longstreet only had one idea: find strong ground and wait for the enemy. Lee understood that he needed to smash the AoP in the north, or all was lost, and he knew that Meade was not going to be led by the nose as so many Union general had been. Lee also knew that Vicksburg was in terrible shape, and would fall soon, adding to the pressure on him to produce a victory that would demoralize Northern voters and impress foreign observers. All Longstreet saw was a battle; Lee was trying to win a war.

[@Tmindful182]

Lee knew once Grant crushed Vicksburg in the coming days hed come east to finish him… Lee would wake up in the night shivering thinking grant was coming to get him… It was now or never.

[@JohnnyNation]

Critics that surmise that Pickett's Charge ultimately lost the War and was ill- advised may often forget that Lee was initially offered full command of Union forces at the start of the conflct/ would he have lost Gettysburg If he was on the other side ??? We'll never know !!!

[@strategicsage7694]

@@JohnnyNation Eh, the larger point is that even if they'd won at Gettysburg, they still wouldn't have won the war. There just would have been another battle, and another. There was no realistic scenario in which they were going to win in one decisive moment.

[@ZGundam83]

1:41 “Now, they have the stone wall, like we did at Fredericksburg.” That is a very powerful comparison.

[@ronaldshank7589]

Amen. Gen. Longstreet could (In a way of saying) see it as clear as day. He never even gave Pickett's Charge a One in a Trillion chance of success. I simply cannot get over just how stubborn Gen. Lee was being. He felt like he had to do something, though, so he chose the Union Center to attack. Easily the dumbest move in the entire Civil War!

[@William.H.Bonney1]

Should have been discharged in shame after it and not allowed the dignity of surrendering on the army behalf.

[@ARCtrooperblueleader]

@@William.H.Bonney1 - Lee spoke with Jefferson and requested to be relieved of command of the Confederate Army, but Jefferson refused and Lee went on to make life hell for the Union in the two years following Gettysburg.

[@William.H.Bonney1]

@@ARCtrooperblueleader lol how by going on the offensive against a better equipped larger force sacrificing valuable men in stupid charges while losing vicksburg Atlanta and basically anything important to his country. Worrying about his own good image while Sherman burned his country to the ground looting women and childrens homes and didn’t even make a single attempt to retaliate at all, wouldnt even send a threat to washington to stop them from terrorizing civilians. Generals begging him to pressure the capitol and he wouldn’t. He was a coward that wouldn’t even acknowledge them as the enemy which is why he says “those people” we should stop glorifying him as anything other than a man in over his head. His greatest victories were when his generals did the logistics you see his true ignorance at Gettysburg. Should have been shot after it. The hilarious part is he quotes napoleon in this movie and makes a move people napoleon smashed would make lol

[@ronaldshank7589]

@@William.H.Bonney1 If you're talking about Gen. Robert E. Lee....now that you brought that up.....I must agree with you, Sir! I can't believe that he did that! Imagine seeing those Brave Confederates, simply doing what they've been ordered to do, knowing that THIS was like walking straight into the very jaws of Death! A good many of them died fighting for their Home State, the State of Virginia (Which, coincidentally, is where I'm from), and knowing that they couldn't accomplish such a task, in the face of such overwhelming odds...and yet, they went, anyway! Actually, there were one or two places, where the Confederates broke through the Union Line, albeit briefly. In short, they did the best that they could, all things considered. After that, things changed. One thing that has gotten me curious, is this:Union General Gordon Meade had at least one, maybe more, chances to (& oh! I hate to say this!), destroy the Confederates...and yet, didn't. I'm glad that he didn't, don't get me wrong. I've wondered, though, for a long time, why he didn't press the advantage. Maybe he actually felt sorry for the Confederates....and showed them some mercy. Here's a thought that just crossed my mind, too. Maybe, as he witnessed Pickett's Charge, and saw what had happened, he may have felt more than a little bit of pity for his opponents. I really can't make heads or tails of that particular situation. That being said: I'll just leave it to history.

[@sethwallacephd3418]

Ive read many of the comments below and am impressed with the respect, knowledge and thoughtfulness of most. Thank you. As for me, my late grandfather, Willard M. Wallace, PhD, Prof of History at Wesleyan Univ in CT wrote...The Soul of the Lion...a biography of J.L. Chamberlain. So, I grew up visiting battlefields... incl Gettysburg. That noted, I dont recall Gramps ever criticizing Lee or Longstreet. I suspect the following variables formed Lee's decision to attack rather than re-deploy: 1.Until that battle, Lee's Army had never been defeated. 2. Lee knew he had no consistent supply train of weaponry and other necessities 3. Lee knew that if the battle was won Lincoln was likely to sign a peace treaty with Jefferson Davis. 4. Lee could not have known that a 'Tipping Point' had been reached within the Union Army. What had once been a group of poorly trained and resentful soldiers - had evolved into and extremely effective fighting force comparable to his own. Ground troops had become more experienced and Commanders, like Hancock + Chamberlain had risen to positions where they could make a difference. 5. Lee knew General Meade - and based on that understanding - he made a calculated decision: Meade would be cautious (which in fact he was - as demonstrated by Meade's choice not to pursue Lee after Pickets charge). 6. Lee probably should have listened to Longstreet... but it was Lee who was dealing with pressure from Jefferson Davis and ultimately I suspect Lee believed fate was on his side. 7. And of course there were other variables involved... The absence of Jeb Stuart's Calvary, Longstreet's potentially purposeful delay to attack... and so many more... Some we know and others we don't. Ultimately the battle was incredibly tragic and I am always haunted yet amazed by the bravery and commitment of the soldiers on both sides.

[@gunsgeargadgetswithgrady5062]

I enjoyed reading your comments. You made a very knowledgeable and scholarly response. I agree with you that Lee was under tremendous pressure to succeed. The fact that he was in Pennsylvania at all suggests this to be true. Keep up the good work!

[@SantomPh]

his ambition was to get the North to dump Lincoln and recognize the South out of pure exhaustion from the war. However Lee was no politician and was a fighting man through and through. Unlike Davis he wanted to defeat his enemy decisively on the field, this proved to be his undoing. Longstreet knew that if the ANV repeated defensive battles on a march to Harrisburg or Washington DC the Union would eventually cave in to anti-war sentiment in the North. Lee was not patient enough to realize this, although he himself advocated a strike on Washington DC at one point to end the war quickly. Meade's conservatism ironically was what made his defensive strategy so effective- internal lines, impregnable formations, use of cavalry, terrain and supply lines; all things Lee was also very good at. Gettysburg was slightly strange in that the Union never charged the Confed lines until the very end, even that was at the southern tip of the line with Kilpatrick's cavalry to minimal effect. When the Union went on the offensive Meade was demoted from top commander in favor of Grant, but unlike his predecessors remained in charge of the Army of the Potomac and with dignity.

[@toddtoes3178]

7. The greatest loss to the Confederacy was that of Stonewall Jackson at Chancellorsville. On day 1 Jackson would’ve taken the high ground and the battle of Gettysburg would’ve never been written. Yes there would’ve been another battle in Pennsylvania but not at Gettysburg. When Jackson died so did the Confederacy. The Confederate army never won another battle after his death. Some may argue the confederate army won the battle of Cold Harbor but the reality is the confederate army couldn’t afford to lose all those men at Cold Harbor. The was was over after Gettysburg and Vicksburg were lost.

[@paulsullivan6946]

Hard disagree on point three. There was no way Lincoln would have signed a Peace Treaty with the South. The man was simply not prepared to accept any agreement that allowed the South to remain an independent country. Now, a victory at Antiem would have imperiled Lincoln's reelection (already an uncertain prospect) which was Lee's ultimate goal; bleed the North dry until someone other than Lincoln was at the helm. Ultimately, however, the North retained its confidence in the commander and Chief and the Union war machine ground the South down, as it always was eventually going to do.

[@mastergmoore]

I have to disagree partially. Hubris. He beat back the Union every time in the South but different cases going North. Many generals including Jackson agreed that attacking the Union outside of “Southern” States was a bad idea. Jeb Stuart being late actually landed him in a suicidal cavalry attack agains the Union. Outside of Gettysburg. So he wasted skilled cavalrymen and equipment that could not be replaced. Longstreet was flustered at the end of day 1 for not being granted the order of driving the Union off the field entirely, and suggests to abandon the field for better ground that they can choose to fight on between Washington or at least breaking away from the fight to defeat in detail. Lee discourages Longstreet again and orders his men through the rocks at Devils Den ect. Lee would’ve wanted Longstreet to take initiative and go around the rocky terrain. Men in the field recall walking 4 miles to *get* 1. Hood recalls and begs Longstreet to let him go around but Longstreet basically brooding says no follow through with the lines with and go dead ahead. So on the third day when Longstreet begs to go around potentially or not attack at all Lee punishes him kind of into attacking a certain way and takes away his opportunity to use initiative. When Lee gave core commanders power to do what Hood requested the prior day. But by taking that away from Hood - Lee takes it from Longstreet. Lee likely did the same thing to Jeb. A bloody form of discipline.

[@davecrupel2817]

"What are you thinking, General?" What does it matter, General?

[@matthines4748]

It's interesting that Longstreet was a close friend of Ulysses Grant (his cousin married Grant) and both had a similar temperament about tactics. Longstreet was underappreciated as a tactician, since he felt the South could best win by fighting a defensive war. It is said that his pioneering trench tactics were studied long after the war and copied in the trenches of France fifty years later.

[@Robofish12]

Completely agreed. Longstreet was wrongfully dragged through the mud by Lost Causers like Jubal Early after the war. He was was one of the war's best generals on either side.

[@SantomPh]

@Stuart Donnelly Early was already threatened on his left flank by Reynolds' forces who were coming from the east. He was also diverted from his previous mission to get to Harrisburg, so he was much further upfield than the others. According to Ewell he had to withdraw because there was no way they would get to the high ground intact and without being engaged by unknown amounts of Union troops. the fault still lies with Stuart and the lack of intelligence and reconnaissance from his cavalry.

[@hhale]

@Stuart Donnelly Jackson would have convinced Lee to try something else. Jackson preferred to outmaneuver the enemy, not attack them head on. Charging across an open field over a mile into the center of the enemy line? I don't see that happening.

[@ms1535]

I agree that losing Jackson was a blow that the South couldn’t rebound from. He was a man with a sharp tactical mind that preferred movement to a set piece battle. Chancellorsville was a brilliant example. His boys were so close to the yanks while marching around the union flank that they could hear and see the yank campfires. Also the missing Stuart hurt Lee immensely. Stuart raided the countryside only to be chased by union calvary accomplishing nothing. The CSA should have taken Cemetery Ridge as a first priority on day one. And if that was not possible, let the yanks have it and devise a plan to pick high ground somewhere else, possibly closer to DC and make Meade come to him. Besides the CSA did not have enough troops or cannon for a frontal assault as history shows. “Fix and Flank” should have been Lee’s Strategy. BTW, Meade was fired for not following Lee after the charge which I think was unfair to Meade.

[@ms1535]

Stuart Donnelly, I must be getting senile. It would have taken Meade hours to get his troops and logistics in order. Like you also stated. Thxs for the correction friend.

[@billandrews]

In the months before Gettysburg, Lee repeatedly wrote Confederate President Jefferson Davis that, in his opinion, due to the growing disparity between the Confederacies ability to re-supply its men and the Unions ability to do so, "military victory" against the North was "no longer possible". The only hope he wrote was Propaganda. "If I can whip the North on its own soil, the Northern Peace Party would demand settlement on terms favorable to the Confederacy." "Under these circumstances, we should neglect no honorable means of dividing and weakening our enemies." wrote Lee to Davis. "We must give all the encouragement we can, consistently with the truth, to the rising peace party of the North." The obvious problem with that was that half of the "Peace Party" wanted the southern states to return the Union. To this, Lee wrote to Davis saying the South should not make "nice distinctions." "When peace is proposed to us it will be time enough to discuss its terms." Lee's plans for that Propaganda victory "on Northern soil" were completed by June 1863 and on the 3rd of June, Lee began to move his Army northward into Union territory. The War, the Confederates though in 1861, would not last more than a year, as such, they did not save up stores for a prolonged conflict and it had been showing since early 1862. Lee was constantly dealing with shortages of supplies and food and men. In March of 1862, less than a year since the war began, Lee wrote James Seddon, the Secretary of War "Let the State authorities take the matter in hand, and see that no man able to bear arms be allowed to evade his duty." "Let every effort be made, every means be employed, to fill and maintain the ranks of our armies, until God, in His mercy, shall bless us with the establishment of our independence." Whatever you may think of Lee, he endured the same sufferings as his men. He refused luxuries and ate nearly as little as his men did. While his tent was an ordinary Offices tent, drafty and wet. As he had to few men to grant furloughs to his Army, he never took one. He even refused a new uniform, even the new sash his wife sent him. "My old blue will serve me yet awhile." he wrote back to his wife Mary. Lee did not believe that he would survive the war, and he did not want the papers saying he was found dead in a high style. He was he said, "just a soldier". He would lead by example, and in response, Mary, like her husband, did as well. By late March 1862, Lee was almost yelling in his letters to Seddon. "My soldier's daily ration is only 18 ounces of flour, 4 ounces of bacon, of indifferent quality, with occasionally supplies of rice, sugar, or molasses." Scurvy had become a problem as well and there was no medicine nor lemons to combat it. Scrounging for food was the Armies #1 activity and there was never enough food when they could find it. The north, on the other hand, suffered a wealth of supplies. The North had fully reordered its great manufacturing sectors to supplying war goods. The Union's soldiers had an embarrassment of riches. So much so that soldiers literally toss away any weight that they did not think was absolutely essential. Come the Spring, Winter coats littered the roadsides on which they marched. They knew come the fall they would get new ones. Fry pans, tin plates? "Away with you." They used their canteen halves for pan and plate. This while some Confederate soldiers were without boots. In the Western Theatre, which did not get the attention of the treasury that Lee's forces did, it was even worse. Some Southern soldiers in the Army of Tennessee were fighting with old style Flintlocks rather than modern percussion cap rifles. These were useless when it rained as the pan got wet and soaked their powder. More important to the Army itself was, Lee could see that his army was growing smaller while the North's army was growing larger. As he laid out his plans for his second invasion of the North, Lee knew he would never be able to front an army of this size again, while the North would never have an army this small again. This whipping on Northern soil he knew he needed to inflict, was going to be the last truly large fighting force Lee would ever have. 176 cannon were gathered up by Lee. When they opened up on the center of the Union line on July 3rd (day 3, Pickets charge), it was the largest artillery barrage of the war. But a shortage of powder and cannonball helped to defeat its intended effect. That, and the Devil's own idea that came to General Hunt, head of the Union's Artillery. Gen.s Meade, and Hunt, suspected the attack on the center after the failed attacks on the flanks on day 2. Gen. Hunt, clever devil that he was, ordered his cannon to remain silent for the first 15 minutes of the barrage. Then he only ordered a third of his guns to fire back. This lead Lee into thinking that his artillery barrage had knocked out the majority of Hunt's guns. It was a brilliant feint which had the proper effect upon Lee's mind. Thinking that most of the Union's guns were destroyed Lee ordered Picket's men forward. As we know, most of the Confederate's men never got close to the Union’s lines that afternoon. Only at the bend in the Union's line known as "The Angle", did Gen Armistead's Brigade engage the Union at close quarters fighting, but Northern re-enforcement quickly arrived. Seconds after Armistead ordered his men to turn the union cannon, they had just taken, around to use on the Union itself, he was to find that they were all empty. All the canister shot had already been fired into his men. Of the first volley fired by the newly arrived Union re-enforcements to The Angle, three musket balls found the General's chest and Armistead fell dead and with him the dreams of the Confederacy. The War was now effectively over. It was only a matter of the South facing up to the fact. Many, including myself, would say the turning point, the beginning of the end, occurred the previous spring of 1862 at Malvern Hill on July 1st, the last day of the Seven Days Campaign. Lee began the battle with 52,000 men but left more than 22,000 dead on the battlefield when it was over. Southern newspapers shocked at the number of the dead called Lee a "butcher" and "incompetent". So did General Hill, who lost his entire Corps that day, just as Picket will in a years time at Gettysburg lose his Division. Both Generals died hating R.E. Lee. Of the Battle, which Gen. Hill had forcefully urged Lee not to make, Hill publicly called it not war but "murder". Lee's failure at Gettysburg was in part a well-played feint by Gen. Hunt, but regardless, this battle Lee knew, was the last hope. He had to attack. Too many men had already died, men he knew he would never replace. Lee's back was against the wall, Lee had to fight, so he gambled, and lost.

[@rd9793]

This is a very well written composition. It is littered with facts and well argued. You really have submitted this to a Civil War magazine.

[@scotts148]

Hate to nitpick an otherwise well written comment, but Gen Armistead was commanding a brigade, not a corps.

[@billandrews]

@@scotts148 Oops, thanks for picking that up.

[@jeffmathis8627]

Sun Tzu would have considered this attack a violation of every thing he considered sound battlefield decisions. This is were Lee believed his own myth and that of his army being unbeatable.

[@richardpfaff4461]

100% man. Sun Tzu would have been mortified.

[@richardpfaff4461]

It's a good thing though.

[@CJN4737]

" the battle is won before its fought " or in this case was lost.

[@steed3902]

Notra damus predicted this whole thing!

[@joshlight6892]

@@steed3902 oh please.

[@McRocket]

What a strange predicament for Longstreet. A superior whom you know and have (apparently) tremendous respect for... ...whom has mostly conducted his men brilliantly. But now? You know he is about to make a GIGANTIC mistake. And you CANNOT stop him. If you hated him? Or he was an idiot? It would be easier...more straightforward. But this? Longstreet must have been in terrible turmoil.

[@alainarchambault2331]

"They have the stone wall like we did at Fredericksburg." Frontal assaults was already proven to be wasteful.

[@DestructZero]

I think it was Sun Tzu who said never assault a fortified enemy position.

[@1982kinger]

Jackson would never have done it

[@osurpless]

Anyone have a subtitle for the Napoleonic tactic Lee mentions at :42? Feu da feur?

[@jeffreydrozek-fitzwater4649]

And to think armies had to learn that lesson all over again 50 years later...

[@TRKEWEENAW]

I was at Fredericksburg (not during the battle) and walked that killing ground, stood at that wall and just tried to imagine the slaughter which took place there. I am sure my imagination was no match for what actually happened.

[@ribonucleic]

Lee: God go with you. Longstreet: Can God go with Hill instead?

[@rc59191]

Lol I don't blame him at all for that the plan was insane.

[@ryanS593]

@@rc59191 it really was a massively bad plan.

[@rc59191]

@@ryanS593 ya and on top of that Lee supporters still try to blame Longstreet for it not working.

[@ryanS593]

@@rc59191 I agree. Nothing against Lee, but this was totally his fault. Longstreet was an outstanding tactician. Lee got cocky with all the previous successes.

[@oldsouth31]

Longstreet wanted no part of this - he knew this was suicide from the get-go.

[@deafsmith1006]

I've been to Gettysburg. It was WAY FAR to that ridge. Bunching up men and letting them walk a mile under fire was suicide. Brave but still suicide. Like the Japanese and their Banzai charges.

[@Tina06019]

I stood there at Gettysburg and even I knew G-d himself could not have gotten those Southern soldiers across that field and up that hill even if He had wanted to. It was insanely crazy. All I could think was "What was General Lee thinking?" I am glad slavery was abolished, very, very glad, yet my heart aches for all the blood and pain in that field.

[@karnevalsjeck1984]

If the confederate artillery barage had done enough Damage, it could have been a successful charge.

[@TorontoJediMaster]

Tina I suspect that Lee had seen his army pull off amazing victories before. He simply felt that they could do it again. I think he allowed the confidence in his men to override his good sense.

[@TorontoJediMaster]

oldsouth 31 Longstreet had commanded the defense at Fredericksburg, where the Confederates had the stone wall to give them shelter. So, he fully understood the tactical advantage the Union troops now had. Plus, he could calculate the rate of casualties against the distance to go once Pickett's men moved out into open ground. He simply realized that by the time they reached the wall, there'd be few left -definitely not enough to defeat the Union men defending it.

[@brianvalero6272]

hearing Lee in this clip is like listening to the ravings of a mad man.

[@markmerzweiler832]

No, like a man who wanted to end it.

[@rc59191]

Especially after General Longstreet painted a pretty detailed picture of what would happen if they sent 15000 men across open ground to be gunned down.

[@andrewvillers6447]

Lee’s blood was up, and he was so convinced of his and his army’s invincibility. He’d achieved incredible, nigh divine success over the past year of war, and his men believed in him as much as he in them. He wasn’t mad, just convinced that he had the full measure of the Union army, as well as his own. He didn’t know that Meade had prepared Hancock and Gibbon for this assault. We just get the benefit of hindsight.

[@curious968]

@@markmerzweiler832 But it is mad to allow "want" to overtake "what could actually be done". The truth is, even had he won, this fantasy that the AoP was going to collapse was very dubious. Even the worst of the union generals showed very consistently that the _one thing_ they could do after a defeat was retreat and regroup quickly. Meade probably ends up at Pipe Creek, which is the place he always wanted to fight anyhow.

[@daniellee8162]

With all the signs Longstreet shown and the look on Lee's face is about as real as it can get. Lee must have felt deep down Longstreet was right but Lee was so invested in this one battle that he felt the time was all or none.

[@bcask61]

Lee knew the South could not win a protracted war. He knew their only chance was to win in 1863. It was a desperate gamble, but in his mind it was necessary.

[@xanderluv]

Longstreet should have picked a tree in the woods to talk to for those 3 days

[@870Rem12gauge]

Lee may have suffered a mild stroke on the 2nd day. He was not himself and ignored advice from his closest officers, especially Longstreet.

[@acatwood11]

Lee was overconfident after a string of victories against the Union, especially Chancellorsville.

[@xanderluv]

Most likely high on cocaine.

[@linusherr8257]

xanderluv What does this mean

[@xanderluv]

Linus Herr He would have had a better chance of getting his plan approved

[@jed4426]

It's very weird terrain. It's so hard to judge distance. I've been there several times. No wonder why the CSA artillery over shot. There's slumps and it's just impossible to judge

[@teller1290]

And in the days of no smokeless powder, on hot, still July day, tough to see where shells landing.

[@finrodbrs]

It was worse than that. The Confederate munitions plants weren't standardized like the Union ones. Exploding shells of that time used fuses. The Army of Northern Virginia were used to using ammo from Richmond's Tredegar Iron Works, but an accident took the Works down several months before and they were now using ammo from South Carolina which had slower burning fuses. So, for instance, if you set a shell for a 4-second fuse, it would explode after 5 seconds. And when your shells are traveling several hundred yards per second that makes a big difference.

[@joshuadesautels]

Actually, the Confederate artillery overshot because their shells had defective fuses. Also, the Union gunners deliberately had some of their guns cease firing to fool the Confederates into THINKING that they were out of action.

[@mikhailiagacesa3406]

Pennsylvania has way more glacial rubble than Virginia and makes the local topography deceptive and "weird". Devil's Den is a perfect example. You don't even see it 'till you're on top of it.