Have we found the missing link in the energy storage equation?

[@boklasarmarkus]

I’d love for you to revisit grid scale storage solutions you’ve covered in the past, to see if they are still being developed or if they have been abandoned.

[@boklasarmarkus]

I just realised you did this for solid state batteries 6 months ago, that's awesome! kzbin.info/www/bejne/nJW2opyYgs11rck The original video came out 3 years ago, that's why I hadn't seen it. kzbin.info/www/bejne/n5evqZ6FZdxpeJY

[@user-Dave67]

Oh no that's a really good question

[@Withnail1969]

All have been abandoned like literally everything on this channel.

[@ronsykes5035]

The DIELECTRIC VORTEX Technology by Ronald Frederick Sykes Superior Levitation for your personal spacecraft Energy comes from the vacume of space

[@peters972]

Lol, I was thinking the same thing.

[@ianseaweed]

Interesting to read so many comments from ‘engineering minds’ who understand all this stuff coming up with solutions to problems. I guess the more people that are set to a task, the more probable it is to find the solution. Reminds me of Charlie Dukes answer to the question why haven’t people gone back to the moon since the Apollo program? His response is along the lines of ‘back then we had 400,000 people working on the mission and an unlimited budget, can’t get that kind of thing anymore’. So I think it’s heartening that there are various groups tackling these problems but find it more disheartening that no government will mobilise the necessary number of people and money to work the problem. I guess the carbon disinformation war is still being won by the petrochemical giants on the key battle fields.

[@rajeshchheda456]

Thanks for another wonderful video, A very large number of technologies succeed in lab, fewer in prototype and very rare ones make it on commercial scale.

[@dosadoodle]

9:00 -- I'm confused about the rightmost chart. How can we have 300 cycles in a year if each discharge lasts 72 hours (3 days)? I'm sure I'm missing something here.

[@lcdvasrm]

I hope for them that's not why they got these good numbers...

[@gyrateful]

Not full cycles. Like my phone, I use and charge it many times a day

[@HesderOleh]

@@gyrateful except the differnce betwen the charts was length of discharge cycle.

[@PeterAqualung]

Doesn’t make sense to me either. I need to look at the paper for what they actually meant with that 1000 days/year battery

[@carlossousa3285]

Thanks for the weekly reason to come to youtube!! If we ever connect our world as a whole world grid, maybe renewables will reach the intended. If we continue divided, northern and southern most countries will continue to require lots of fuel to burn unless we want to return to the dark ages. the incredible thing is to see quite a bit of people spending lots of their money with some rebates wanting to participate of this move (including myself). I just happen to understand the DYI process and only spend about a third of a professional installation. Just my opinion....

[@MatyasLemberTutorials]

That intro was priceless :D

[@chrissscottt]

CATL's new sodium-ion battery looks promising.

[@muctop17]

1:41 Oh! Llanberis and Dinorwig Quarry

[@Yoav570]

Loved the snarky intro :-)

[@smferreiro2610]

A screw pump is usually the choice. The technology is fairly developed pumping cement to high buildings under construction.

[@adrianthoroughgood1191]

Also grain.

[@johannesschaller5510]

Perhaps a peristaltic pump would work even better than a screw pump. Many years ago I used one for quite viscous phenolic resin and it worked a treat. The other option would be to slightly heat the electrolyte, if its viscosity is strongly temperature dependent. Edit: also possible, a Moineau pump, which is a progressing cavity design, even better for very viscous fluids.

[@smferreiro2610]

@@johannesschaller5510 I always wondered if peristaltic pumps don't wear out too much, or too quickly... ...if they don't, you are very likely right.

[@gravelydon7072]

@@smferreiro2610 It depends on the tubing used in them and the material is that is being moved. They are cheap to repair when the tubing does wear out as compared to other types of pumps.

[@smferreiro2610]

@@gravelydon7072 I guess that, as always, it boils down into a question of economics and logistics: how expensive the tubing is, how frequent we have he system down for what length of time, and if we can afford discarding some fluid in the process (ambiently and economically). Thank you!

[@brucebender5917]

Wait a minute. @9:06 the manganese flow battery is showing an LCOS of $.15/kwh for 300 cycles per year at a 72 hour cycle time. 300 cycles x 72 hours = 2.5 years. . . . . ?

[@HesderOleh]

I love how many people in the comments picked that up. If that question occurred to you it means you are engaging with the content and thinking critically not just passively consuming content.

[@dylanbrown5414]

LCD displays were in the lab for 30 years until they swept CRT technology away in a couple of years. It can happen and I hope it does quicker for battery and all other forms of renewable energy storage technologies. The planet is screwed if it doesn’t happen.

[@alvarofernandez5118]

Technically they were in the lab *and* in watches, calculators and various niche applications. Shrinking the cells down to pixel size was the biggest issue I guess.

[@SaveMoneySavethePlanet]

Yea, I definitely think research on all these things needs to keep going forward for the long term gains that we’ll eventually get. It’s just when I hear someone putting off purchasing an LI storage battery for their solar system cause they want to buy a flow battery when it comes out….that’s when I roll my eyes.

[@dylanbrown5414]

@@alvarofernandez5118 I read that it was getting the manufacturing quality up to a point where the pixel failure rate was acceptable on a large display.

[@Tasmantor]

@@SaveMoneySavethePlanet know a lot of people looking for a grid level storage solution for their house?

[@SaveMoneySavethePlanet]

@@Tasmantor yea, I’ve heard a fair number of people trying to push for small flow batteries every residential block or so.

[@petersilva037]

for paste batteries, maintenance of the reciprocating pumps sounds like a pain. It would be fun to analyze rather than recprocating pumps, to just manipulate entire tanks with, say, an electric lift. You put one tank above the "fuel cell" , and an empty one below. Gravity pushes the paste across the exchange membrane. If gravity alone isn't enough, apply air pressure (positive on the top, negative on the bottom) as an assist to gravity. If you have whole rows of tanks in a rack, as depicted in the illustration. all the movement will be exchanges of tanks of equal mass, so the lift only needs to deal with inertia, not actually lifting large heavy tanks, aside from at the exchange membrane itself. So... with this kind of system, rather than trying to move pastes across long distances in pipelines, you only need one air pump near the fuel cell, to charge a compresed air reservoir, perhaps a vacuum pump for bottom extrusion... none of the pumps have to deal with the actual fluid, just air. the rest is done by lift motors moving entire tanks. much longer life, standard components, easier maintenance.

[@ronsykes5035]

The DIELECTRIC VORTEX Technology by Ronald Frederick Sykes Superior Levitation for your personal spacecraft Energy comes from the vacume of space

[@jyvben1520]

why pump if you can have gravity do it ? was to be my comment, but you got there first, ok, i was thinking about the rotating canal boat lift in the UK (i think) did not need a lot of power.

[@smferreiro2610]

It's sounds as a ggreat improvement!

[@terencefield3204]

have you searched for treatment ?

[@kkpal]

The gravity solution would only be feasible if there was a 100% conversion for every cycle, which is unlikely. The system seems to be relying on a loop with a conversion rate for displaced mass/%charged mass/membrane area. You could put a second pump on bypass while maintaining the primary pump. That's normally the way to go for undisrupted continuous processes.

[@PSRautoharp]

The weak point is the membrane which is susseptable to pressure, chemical attack and membrane blinding. The area of the membrane is the controlling factor to the size of the plant. Great idea, but not there yet.

[@leerman22]

They could probably make the membrane user-serviceable (replaceable) if it lasts long enough, just empty and clean the cell first. They probably have to have a way of isolating each cell with valves anyways should the membrane break.

[@etienneetienne9054]

Membrane mechanical and chemical stability would not be a problem: the electrolyte seems not aggressive; membranes exist in resistnat materials like PVDF; the battery seems have been tested for 300 cycles and this is a basic point for engineers. One may fear cause blinding/clogging the membrane because of precipitation of Va or Mg or Zn species within the membrane during redox processes. Hopefully this seems unlikely or reversible. Now when the membrane issue remains, it may be possible to change the membrane alone, or even change the cell stack emptied and easy to repair or recycle because it contains only standard materials, not likle e Lithium battery.

[@savclaudiu2133]

At 8:58 How you can have in a year 300 cycles of 3 days (72 hours) long? This would have helped me massively during university.

[@HesderOleh]

Time Travel, but I don't think they took into account the energy and dollar cost of paying for the time travel.

[@jefferee2002]

You really know how to sell a video

[@Neilhuny]

It was a brilliant start, wasn't it?! Made me laugh

[@joyalsajan1168]

@@Neilhuny 🤣🤣🤣🤣.Glad that this community doesn't buy any of these shit.

[@JustHaveaThink]

Cheers :-)

[@gwr6305]

Keep the revolutionary small scale lab experiments coming! Cheers

[@starmole5000]

brilliant intro! About the many "gamechangers" - the important thing is that people are looking for them! As long as there's a decent amount of money being spent on looking at the questions, we will eventually get to the answers :)

[@philiprose5895]

YES! carryonsquandering.

[@m.pearce3273]

A fine good morning. I wanted to thank you extremely as this is one of KZbin's Best Series that lives up to its title and every time I watch one it has me thinking on these surmountable problems. Both my Daughters share my opinion that this should be required watched in schools. You are doing the most valued services to Science. The Thought Process. We are avid watchers have now seen all of the complete series and lively discussion issues from each thoughtful programmes.

[@JustHaveaThink]

I'm delighted you and your daughters have enjoyed the videos. That's made my day :-)

[@jamiearnott9669]

Another good video with your unmistaken dry humour ;-) So this energy storage solution would be useful for utilities and is more efficient than storing renewables with "green hydrogen"? This would be very useful for UK, already having the world's largest offshore wind electricity generation until at least the 2030s. Incidentally a storm Malik generated over 50% of UK electricity needs over the weekend as UK is trying to become more "green".

[@martinsoos]

One of the most important features of energy storage is bleed rate. How long will the energy stay in storage? Say if I charge this battery to 100% how many days will it stay above 80% charge.

[@adrianthoroughgood1191]

Since the energy storing atoms are stored in separate tanks rather than either side of a thin membrane in a normal battery, I would expect that problem to be much less for flow batteries. But that's based on a hunch not data.

[@martinsoos]

@@adrianthoroughgood1191 I agree, but they are not bragging about it, or lithium holds charge for years and I just don't know about it. And again, how many months can we leave a tesla in a parking lot and expect to still make it home. I have a Honda that not only won't start after 5 days, but the security system kills the battery and I mean that I have to buy another battery after 5 days.

[@blaydCA]

@@martinsoos IF your replacing a new lead acid battery every five days, you're a got multiple serious problems including poor quality batteries.

[@martinsoos]

@@blaydCA After replacing 4 batteries, it was determined that the batteries were fine. however, Honda, making a new Civic SI sports car had the thought to put every electrical gadget that they could think of in the car and hooked them up to the battery instead of the ignition switch. Honda denies the problem to every person that owns one of those cars and the problem of the breaks going to the floor on occasion and the problem of the new tire pressure sensors leaking air constantly. It's a 2005 and there was a reason I got it so cheaply second hand. I can honestly say that I will be a cold day in hell before I ever buy another Honda. Not because of the car, but because of the denial.

[@blaydCA]

@@martinsoos Ouch! Time for a disconnect switch to the battery cable.

[@thomasgaudette7367]

How about an update on Sadaway's liquid metal battery?

[@JustHaveaThink]

Not sure there's much to tell right now. He's got a deal, but I haven't seen any commercial progress yet.

[@rlsearch1]

Dave, thank you so much for another one of your deep dives into another captivating subject. I have one query though and hope someone can answer it for me. At 9 minutes 10 seconds, a diagram compares the 4 storage types, across 3 different discharge times, with the final scenario representing 300 cycles per year, with a discharge time of 72 hours. My question Dave is how can this be possible, as it would take 900 days to run those 300 cycles.....supposedly in that 1 year. Dave, keep up the brilliant work.

[@JustHaveaThink]

It's a good question Robin. I will endeavour to find out.

[@yozco8258]

@@JustHaveaThink Have you been able to find out? Great content as always.

[@etienneetienne9054]

The real total time of the testing is not critical, but the number of cycles. Should have wrote '300cycles/2.46years(900days, 300x72Hr). Maybe they have done only 121 cycles in one year and then present the cost levelised to 1 year (should have wrote or '121cycles/year').

[@rlsearch1]

@@JustHaveaThink Dave, many thanks for that and as always, for the wonderful thought provoking content of your channel. Here's wishing you much well deserved success 👍😊

[@rlsearch1]

@@etienneetienne9054 Many thanks for taking the time to explain that to me, it certainly helps me understand - thank you and have a wonderful week 👍😊

[@taffdaddy1291]

We are better off using iron rust and salt water flow batteries. Common PVC components, easily scalable salt water tanks, 100% recyclability, 20 yr life span per system, no shortage of materials, average layman can repair and maintenance without a hazmat suit. If it breaks down and is discarded it will easily be reabsorbed into the soil. No toxic side effects. And the US Army is testing them.

[@hg60justice]

we have so much deep drilling tech, yet you still hear little of geothermal. it could handle the problem of intermittent clean energy solutions, while being clean itself after the initial drilling. been around a long time. just finding from deeper sources is new.

[@FurrBeard]

Sounds to me like it would be ideal if they could find a way to make the "paste" into a thixotropic gel. [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thixotropy ] The particles can't separate out, but the shear-thinning effect makes it at least a bit easier to pump. I have no idea how difficult it would be to do that in a way compatible with the chemistry, though. The effect might be familiar from some kinds of salad dressing that use xanthan gum and other related hydrocolloids to keep bits of herbs and spice suspended; it all mixes up when you shake the bottle, but shortly after the shaking stops, the bits just kind of hang there for an extended period. The late '90s exotic soft drink "Orbitz" also used the effect to keep little gel balls suspended in the clear drink. Or perhaps the most familiar of all - at least to Americans - tomato ketchup!

[@MaxMisterC]

I wonder if Emre Gençer has ever considered, an alternative career in mime?

[@steve-o6413]

There are so many unanswered questions, but it's a nice tidbit of information, thanks...

[@thomasr7129]

I assume a screw pump would be better suited than a reciprocating (piston & cylinder) type pump. Two potential challenges i see is corrosion of the parts (storage, pipes, pumps) as well as wear and tear on the membrane separating the two mediums.

[@mortenhartvigkristiansen7760]

Of course I don't know the intricate details of this goop, but heavy fuel oil for tankers is some thick goop too, and it's heated with steam to make it flow. Is it a matter of just heating the goo to make it flow easier?

[@SaveMoneySavethePlanet]

There very well could be a simple solution like that. Another commenter mentioned a screw pump like used in construction with cement. Wouldn’t be surprised if the MIT team mostly wanted to get a “baseline” experiment done and is now going to start running lots of minor tweaks like what people are suggesting here.

[@anonymous.youtuber]

Thank you for having the earth mockup rotate in the correct sense.

[@JustHaveaThink]

No worries. I got that wrong once. Never again!!

[@greenaum]

How similar is that to existing zinc-carbon batteries, ie the cheapest batteries already available as AA and other sizes in every shop? They also use a paste with manganese dioxide. If he's just taking the inside of an AA battery and mixing it with a bit of oil to make it flow, in a way, that's genius. An already well-understood chemistry. He might also be able to buy up dead batteries, some towns and cities have disposable battery collection schemes, and use that as a cheap source of materials.

[@crhu319]

Yes, exactly, rely on recycled materials is huge plus.

[@jankeesterietscholten4442]

Thanks for sharing. I think the better flow battery is developed by Elestor in the Netherlands. It is a HBr flow battery specially designed with low lcos in mind. They have mediumscale functional systems running as demonstration projects. The ultimate solution in my opinion would be mimicking nature. In nature we have adp/atp conversion for immediate use, sugars for, short-term and hydro-carbons. All conversions run at room temperature, at atmospheric pressure with non-toxic components, that are abudantly available. I know that there are several attemps/developments running to develop this synthetic hydrocarbon syntheses. I cannot wrap my head around why it would be so difficult to mimick the processes that are so common and mastered by plants as well as animal. Can you possibly eleborate on this in one of your next videos? You are very good at this! I like your series! Best regards, Jan Kees te Riet Scholten.

[@etienneetienne9054]

Organic electrochemical batterie have already been developped. To my knowledge not in the solid state nor in semi-solid state nor in similar flow/tanks design. The capacity and electric power of organics may not read that of metals/metaloids, but there are surely opportunities for organic and biological electric storage to supply several of our electric energy needs. On can occupy more space and use more no-dangerous materials! The may probleme is that redox organics will be less stable that minerals. So alternatively, 1) at large scale it is probably more convenient to produce ethanol or other biofuel easy to store and then but 'burn' in fuel electricl cells.2)at microscale the mitochondria is nice to produce an electrical potential difference! but not convenient. 3) The electric organe of Torpilla?!

[@philipoakley5498]

Manganese dioxide in Carbon / Zinc batteries, as primary cells, are two a penny as they are the classic round battery (Zinc-carbon, and Alkali; EverReady & Duracell).

[@beaconofwierd1883]

09:13 If hydrogen fuel cells are already more cost effective than this, and more cost effective than lithium, why aren’t we seeing more hydrogen storage stations? :s

[@vincentrobinette1507]

You also need to look at round trip efficiency, as well as initial cost per kWh of energy storage, cycle life, and maintenance costs. Lithium batteries are incredibly efficient, low maintenance, but have a high initial cost, and limited cycle life.

[@adrianthoroughgood1191]

You are right that all those factors need to be considered and LCOS does. For grid scale time shifting of renewable generation efficiency is not super important because because the charging energy costs next to nothing as it is currently being thrown away. Capital costs divided by total lifetime energy storage are much more important.

[@comboyneorchard8537]

Have you looked at zink bromide batteries from Sydney University, Australia? Looks promising

[@wlhgmk]

Any storage system that saves Li for mobile applications has to be a good thing. How would this compare with the already developed liquid metal batteries by Ambri or the ZnBr flow/plating batteries from Redflow. We also seem to be on the path to a Na ion battery similar to the Li batteries if they can get over the problems due to the larger size of the Na atom.

[@mtp123fly]

Ambri has been a long time in the "valley of death", the time of lab to real product. They are still calling for a 1MWh demo project this year. But have not seen details of where it is happening. They did get more money $144m in Sept 2021, so still hopeful. But very high heat is a bitch to work with when you want a 20 -30 year life span.

[@donTeo136]

I looked redflow , according to there site they have stared manufacturing a battery. My head calculation is that it stores 450 amps and goes to 0 voltage, no worries. Thats up to 60 Vts, varied dc output.. And is stackable. They have deployed some . Seems like a good home instal. Galion the other zinc bromide battery also is being deployed. But does not look like its for small scale houses yet. Does appear scalable

[@mbee43]

MIck Bridger Have you looked at a battery from Australia called the Gelion Endure battery, a Zinc Bromine gel battery that can replace the current Li Batt.

[@18mtoo]

I hope they have considered soap. Soaps work by having part of their molecule attractive to water and the other end attractive to oil. Other surfactants attract metals or ionised particles. Now this may sound silly but let me give you an example: White sauce is a fat and water mixture with starchy (Big) particles suspended in it, but it can separate or refuse to mix. Mustard tastes spicy but also has soapy qualities. So just throw in a spoonful and voila, lovely smooth sauce that stays that way...

[@Scrogan]

Yes, I bet they have considered surfactants for preventing separation, but I think it’s largely a density-driven separation as opposed to a hydrophilic/hydrophobic separation.

[@jpdemer5]

Starch and oil particles don't have the density of manganese dioxide - it's relatively easy to keep them suspended. (Think mayonnaise.) What might work would be a thixotropic fluid that stays firm until put under shear stress: it would liquefy pretty much on demand when you started to pump it.

[@18mtoo]

My point is that people sometimes make presumptions that exclude ideas. You see, posting " is there something that can help but does not jump out". I did not say this was an answer, I used an example (mustard) to show that although people didn't know it had soaplike qualities, cooks knew it worked. The idea of a fixotropic matrix is a good suggestion.The direction of my point is how sometimes answers are missed or thought of as too outre. The philosopher Charles Fort described such in his Book of the damned.

[@poneill65]

Why don't we just connect all these game-changing laboratories together. Job Done! (we could also use all the hot air from their press offices for community heating)

[@enuskolada6618]

Hang on, how do they get 300 cycles per year of 72 hours (3 days). Wouldn't that require a 900 day year?

[@boriskochevski4240]

I wander how you have determination to find study and understand all this very complicated mind boggling inefficient devices but you won't bother to see that climate can't be driven by only one very little and insignificant thing like CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere. It is well known that so called renewable green energy sources ( wind and solar ) are not green at all and are actually bad for the environment. But it sims like you are willing to oversee the obvious and go with narrative which is insane and very dangerous for all ordinary people. Maybe you have financial interest promoting this agenda?

[@brunski2981]

Laughed out loud at your opening statement! Haven't even watched the video yet, but needed to comment. High Five, please keep up the awesome content, love your videos!

[@SaveMoneySavethePlanet]

Yea it got me too!

[@JustHaveaThink]

Thank you! Will do! :-)

[@patryn36]

Vanadium flow batteries are only limited in their lifespan by the container materials, vanadium can take on either ion state and the differing positive and negative compounds are ionic, the battery can switch back and forth indefinitely as long as the hardware is maintained. No fear of the solution seperating out so for long term reliability the vanadium battery is far superior than what you just showcased.

[@bigstiggerNo1]

Yeah but impractical for grid stability without Gas or Biomass to help out. Due to lack of available materials basically. If money wasn't an object and all vanadium was diverted to battery production to save the planet from climate catastrophe. We could make 2.3GWhrs per annum. That is pitiful not hope or savior.

[@patryn36]

@@bigstiggerNo1 the main flaw with all this, the thing that is causing the issues that things like flow batteries are being perfected for, is that everyone is depending on an aging setup, on those who are now heavily corrupted. A better bet is to take care of one's own power needs, yes you will pay more at first but then you are not a power company that can spread the cost of a project across your client base. If you keep waiting on companies to solve the issues, on governments to provide incentives, then i will hate to be you, any of you. I have looked into a few ideas, including vanadium flow batteries, they are more achieveable than you realize, if you think differently than the rest, if you think at all instead of just reacting like far too many do.

[@benwarful]

@@bigstiggerNo1 would need money to be diverted to mine more Vanadium, there's plenty available. Big bonus that it can be easily recycled and all these lithium battery fires are very worrying.

[@bigstiggerNo1]

@@patryn36 I have 56 solar panels. Three wind turbines. 48KWhrs of lithium battery storage. I have done multiple studies of energy production. If we are not talking Fission leading to Fusion the Maybe antimatter as our future. Then how do you expect to travel to other solar systems with wind or solar power. Trying to be romantic and seemingly good to do will be a dead end. We stopped using mills for a reason either water or wind mills are useless without backup and support. The industrial revolution would have been a lot better for us all if we could have used wind mills and water mills to create it's labor saving longer life's, lifestyle. We needed the portability and compact size of coal to that though. Fission is a far more condensed energy source. Fusion is a step up in condensation. Antimatter another step forward. Using scientist and research money to find answers to energy storage is A BIG WASTE OF TIME MONEY AND RESOURSES. Thorium, Uranium and Plutonium are the most energy dense source of battery we know. The final outcome of energy storage was found by a women who died doing her research. Don't let her death be in vain!

[@patryn36]

@@bigstiggerNo1 you use solar, wind, and hydro if you have access for small scale. Going commercial and industrial is where reactors are best at, the large scale use sites. Thorium is nice but it needs to be bombarded with neutrons before it is useable in any serious power genenration. From what i can find only way to get that source of neutrons outside of elements like uranium is water and messing with a vital component like that does not sit will with me, one reason i am not a fan of techs like fuel cells. If they could realistically not have any losses in a fuel cell system then i would be on board but physics is a fickle thing in that area. If we had orbital infrastructure collecting hydrogen, then losing the water would be a minor concern cause we could make more. As for the space propulsion, nuclear drives, they have working designs for them, aka the impulse drive from star trek, that use hydrogen as propellent and cooling for the reactor, damn things were prototyped and tested back in the 60's apparently. As for fusion, outside of stars i do not see a point of where it is used by humans unless we get some new very good alloys to cover what we are missing now. Kind of think that the reason we have not managed yet is because magnetism is not even a contender as a means to replace the near perfect containment stars use: gravity. With science as heavily corrupted as it is, i do not see a point, unless a virtual miracle happens, that they get their collective heads pulled out of lala land and back into reality where we will ever have working fusion or a great many other techs. Every choice has a down side, if you exclusively use only one option and never compensate for that downside then you deserve the crap you get. Solar is best when paired with other generation means, like wind and\or water, and you need long term storage that has low maintenance costs, like what a vanadium flow battery has. A battery that you do not have to replace the electrolyte because it wears out is a gold mine waiting to be had. Hell aside from the cell stacks and my momentary limited funds i could build the battery now, i have yet to understand how to build the stacks and what size they need to be, other than that i have sourced everything else. It is always more expensive at first doing things on your own, just the nature of the beast. Just because something is dense with power, does not make it a good idea, sometimes low tech is the only sensible way to go because it can be maintained realistically, like lithium batteries. Such a big deal was made, everyone jumped on that bandwagon and look at the situation now, we are running out of available sources, other sources are being denied due to greed and corruption, and after that we still will not have enough to cover everything because the tech is being misapplied far too often. If we are not short on something you can count on human stupidity and shortsightedness to generate a shortage when we do not need it.

[@leifhietala8074]

A reciprocating pump sounds like a terrible solution. A screw pump ought to work well enough. It would eliminate the piston at least which by itself is worth doing.

[@KKuurus]

What is actually gained by the use of these? A simple stack of lead plates submersed in sulfuric acid would store the energy. for large installation you could simply use scrapping to maintain clean plates and re smelt the lead sulfides. seems we are to busy looking for new.

[@itzsleazy6903]

I loved the into haha

[@JustHaveaThink]

Cheers :-)

[@shdwbnndbyyt]

I am much more interested in flow batteries for small home/small business scale usage. Small scale batteries for home power storage for several days of backup power is much more likely to be installed than massive grid systems.

[@jjrusy7438]

then once most people have them, would that not also serve as the massive grid storage, just not centrally concentrated, which also seems like a good thing.

[@toyuyn]

It's amazing the vast range of technologies that can be explored once you realize that energy storage can be literally any reversible process that takes in electricity. Everyone's scrambling to push their technology to market since the winner won't necessarily be the cheapest and most efficient, but whoever can capitalize on the first-mover advantage.

[@SaveMoneySavethePlanet]

Yea, I remember hearing about pumped hydro storage the first time and my brain just exploded. That was the first time that it clicked for me that we can store energy in a potential form.

[@bigstiggerNo1]

Forehead slap with look of despair. Money is waiting. Grid across the planet have lots of solar and wind! Just make the batteries or pumped storage for peats sakes. Literally no-one gets it. New this new that, breakthru here there and everywhere. We need storage yesterday not in ten years or maybe 20 or maybe 30 or never. Scam Scam Scam. Build it or build nuclear. NUCLEAR WORKS it always has it's not a breakthru and can be built now!

[@absalomdraconis]

@@bigstiggerNo1 : Batteries aren't currently (and potentially never _can_ be) viable for grid-scale storage, pumped hydro doesn't have enough good sites, and the people that advocate for this stuff have traditionally bern anti-nuclear (as in "anti-nuclear since the 1970s"). There's a lot of foolishness wrapped up in the whole thing, but there are also reasons for why things have been going the way they have.

[@johntolkien9629]

@@bigstiggerNo1 Nuclear working at what real total cost ? - cost including government subsidies. Am unconvinced that nuclear has provided a sustainable supply of clean energy.

[@bigstiggerNo1]

@@johntolkien9629 Well. I am doing a UK electric grid demand scale study right now. It includes two Fukushima scale disasters with 7 trillion clean up each over a 30 year period. Also incorporating high level waste storage for 1000 years spent fuel around 100 billion. In comparison we have taken annual events seen in the UK where cloudy low solar with no wind regularly reaches 7 straight day thus backup storage of some kind will need to be installed. So Pumped storage, batteries, synthetic fuel production Tidal and on and on included. To be quick and honest, if you want clean cheap and plentiful electricity with absolutely no Fossil fuel or Bio-mass burnt stuff then NUCLEAR is the only option. If you want money is no object outlandish creative massive structures over vast areas of the countryside and coastal areas supporting an intermittent energy source wind and solar is your option. Cheap and clean with a underlying danger in the back of your mind Nuclear. Expensive in your face everywhere you look (maybe to late to prevent serious climate devastation and or war) creative and warm feeling technology then wind solar and tidal. Nuclear or renewables both can get to CO2 free only one can do it quickly and cheaply. If France live up to the latest plan, you'll see that making multiple nuclear reactors end up being quicker per unit that like in the UK where only one maybe two will be built with cost over runs and more negative feeling towards the only real answer for energy needs of the future. If you disagree I understand entirely and am sorry to hear your opinion on this subject, I preferer facts though.

[@olivierb9716]

another missing link for energy storage, next week; another, week after , another ect.. a channel about nothing

[@FreekHoekstra]

How about Unpumped Hydro, seems like places like Canada which generate a lot of energy from using dams, could just adjust the flow dynamically based upon other sources of intermittent energy as needed. This is especially nice in summer when sun is plentiful but water is not.

[@carrdoug99]

I found it interesting, that when doing their cost comparison, they didn't compare themselves to another flow battery technology that is already being deployed. The iron flow battery being built by ESS. Seems like a combination of this technology combined with lithium-ion (sodium-ion soon?) Batteries are still in the lead.

[@agsystems8220]

Very hard to be sure of the numbers on complex 3rd party tech like iron air. They might be ahead, but it is all dependent on whether they can get an air-electrode-electrolyte interface cheap. It looks fundamentally hard to me. Either way, this sort of paste tech is probably applicable to the iron side of an iron air battery too, and could make that considerably cheaper.

[@bigstiggerNo1]

These batteries are not new. Have been in use for years! Can you do research or is it just watching that you do?

[@carrdoug99]

@@bigstiggerNo1 what?!

[@Scrogan]

My money is also on the iron flow battery. Sodium ions are likely a good bet for quick reaction storage, and with a forgiving enough chemistry like the iron-phosphate one they won’t require nickel and cobalt either. Probably. I don’t think iron air batteries are rechargeable.

[@briandavies7402]

@@bigstiggerNo1 Really? Why don't we know then?

[@bobhope9287]

how about large scale housing battery storage, government give people a reasonable allowance to be able to afford to fit the batteries?

[@davidwilkie9551]

Very well presented. Fluidised Bed Technology is indicated?

[@antoniomromo]

Just wanted to pop in to say that I loved the intro. Never stop being awesome and witty good sir 🤣.

[@ticthak]

Great sense of humor! "So instead, I'm going to...." NEVER stop doing these reviews of battery and other cutting-edge possibilities. It doesn't matter if they're complete vapor-ware when it comes to commercialization, the standard that entirely too many absolutely demand of all research projects. It may take even 50 or 100 years, but someone will take the good ideas and produce something viable, maybe even "game-changing", "breakthrough", and/or "disruptive" (you forgot that one...)

[@Neilhuny]

I'm feeling rather shallow - a) I love that black gloop is important, and b) Emre Genser has a most magnificent moustache. OK, getting the finance question involved at an early stage, via a standard model has to be good. Helluva tache, tho'

[@JustHaveaThink]

Glad you liked it :-)

[@rexsheridan5534]

I love the "game changer" technologies. Keep them coming! 😁

[@joyalsajan1168]

Hahaha,best way to fool investors.🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@No_Free_Lunch_Today]

Yes.... lolololol

[@Withnail1969]

Why though? It's just hopium.

[@JustHaveaThink]

Will do!

[@satchell78]

Professor Frink voice from the Simpson's...talking about "gloop" passing through membranes and cells and stuff....could you by chance get Hank Azaria to do a script?

[@JaenEngineering]

Rather than intermittent renewables that require grid scale levelling, how about nuclear power base load power with home scale load levelling. So in the morning, when everyone gets up up and puts the kettle on, the instant demand is supplied locally, then trickled charge through the day ready for the evening demand. That way, you reduce the "jerk" on the grid.

[@danbenson7587]

That’s too simple. Apparently, We have to try everything that’s sounds good instead of what works. Besides this would put all the battery researchers on the dole. Cheers

[@amb8274]

Might be worth doing a video on the Infinite Power cell since that is shifting from R&D production in Cumbria to mass scale commercial production this year. Essentially it is a solar panel but the sun is replaced with a radioisotope, put into a metal box and produces electricity 24/7 for years.

[@Withnail1969]

Doesnt sound real. Why can't I find anything about this breakthrough online?

[@oneuptheextraman]

I guess my question would be if the hydrogen they are referring to is the solid state hydrogen you made a video on a while back, instead of the being stored at very cold temperature hydrogen. I still think solid state hydrogen is our 'best bet' for long term storage. But, I know nothing, I just have an internet connection. But, I do hope we figure something out before Mad Max or Waterworld happens. I don't like extreme heat, or extreme water.

[@agsystems8220]

Neither, it is hydrogen ions, donated by an acid as a charge carrier. The hydrogen is never in the form of H2 molecules, as they are when they are being used as fuel, which is when they are hard to store. Ions are easy to get hold of and store (in an acid), but because they are already reacted you can't get energy from them. You can use them as part of other chemistry though, as they are here.

[@kitemg]

What happened to the Lignin based redox flow battery?

[@alanstuartwatt2455]

great idea...it adds to the thought we need solutions for climate change - not a solution.

[@harenterberge2632]

To be fair to researchers: it is mostly the pr department who write the exarating press releases.

[@cruiseshipdreamer7003]

How did this Flow battery $ Cost compare to Pumped storage?

[@ethanswanson9209]

I think it would be neat to show how current batteries are affecting the grid and how modelers think future batteries will. As a reference, I like to look at the CAISO site and see what their batteries are doing. Great visuals on their site. It seems pretty simple for CAISO, use cheap solar in AM, offset later during peak demand when solar is also usually going down. But what will it look like as batteries increase? How will they handle cloudy days? How will storage look in more wind dominated places?

[@Wayne-wu9rj]

In Australia Redflow batteries already have a zinc bromide battery in Production. Personally I think MIT is a little too late and frankly have producct that is just poor.

[@shanenchristy1]

True, Redflow have a safer zinc bromide system. I would like one for my home.

[@rfldss89]

Wait, this literally the same chemical reaction as the one used in single use alcaline batteries!

[@paulogden7417]

You are over complicating the difference between lithium ion battery storage and other types of storage. It’s simple: Lithium ion is still too expensive for grid scale storage. It is expensive because it relies on expensive materials and manufacturing processes. Please don’t talk about frequency regulation. That’s just confusing. it’s always about supplying power when needed.

[@paulogden7417]

I do like your site but I want to emphasize that the point here is to help more people understand What remains to be done to make energy storage and renewals viable.

[@darkhorseman8263]

Should do a video on flywheel storage.

[@elonmask50]

MIT lost their way when they got behind the Hyperloop

[@trottermalone379]

Refreshing to see a bit of honesty in the advertising... Cheers!

[@hyperdrivee7922]

Can we see a video of any breakthrough technologies that have both, appeared on the channel and come to fruition.

[@SaveMoneySavethePlanet]

Yea, it would be super interesting to hear about something that got implemented in some form later!

[@JustHaveaThink]

That's my plan. Watch this space :-)

[@hyperdrivee7922]

@@JustHaveaThink absolutely! I’m in for that. I will watch. Even updates, if they’ve proven impossible or impractical. There’s just too many exciting loose ends, all straggling about. I haven’t room for anymore. 🤯 I have to admit. The feeling of seeing a new idea here, has went from overwhelming childlike excitement to a feeling of dismal defeat.

[@TC-V8]

How about more good old hydro to take over the base load from the grid?

[@punditgi]

More great stuff from Just Have a Think!

[@CC-iq2pe]

This flow battery tech has issues with temperature.

[@susantunno3047]

You do not have to/need to store energy if you produce it on demand for free.

[@bazoo513]

~ 9:00 - Judging by that economic analysis, combination of Li-ion and hydrogen (and pumped hydro, of course, where suitable) looks like _the_ solution. I thought that hydrogen is more expensive. Perhaps one parameter missing from those graphs is the size of installation (in terms of both power and energy stored) - I suppose that various technologies will scale differently (in terms of cost per watt and per watt-hour.)

[@johnblack2193]

If reports stop using break-through or game-changers and give a percent improvment would be more honest.

[@grindupBaker]

Yes. Perhaps it's ironic or something similar that they often use the same un-quantified meaningless sloganeering as the coal/oil shills and their coal/oil shill-fuckwits have been using for 20 years "It's the Sun !", "New Battery Breakthrough !", "Lock Her Up !", "Revolutionary Power Supply !", "Mini Ice Age !", "New Disruptive Technology !", "Build That Wall !".

[@rklauco]

Sounds like you really did not think through your entry lines :D But it made me laugh :)

[@JustHaveaThink]

Glad you liked it ;-)

[@spinnetti]

Seems like a screw pump would be much better than a piston pump, and draw less energy to run them and keeps the soup mixed/in suspension

[@andrewmorris5947]

How about just on-demand energy.

[@janami-dharmam]

Zn-MnO2-C powder batteries are called dry cells. Unfortunately they are not reversible. The problem will not be with the MnO2- carbon powder paste; the Zn electrode cannot be regenerated efficiently and it will be produced something like a sponge.

[@12321bennyg]

I guess another question to ask is: What happens when these batteries reach the end of their usable life? Are they easily broken down and recycled? Or will they just be another thing that we bury in the ground?

[@bobgriffin316]

Just recycle all the different materials I expect. Maybe even filter out any impurities in them and use them in a new flow battery. I am sure it will be worth while since these batteries need to be big. Recycling for lithium is starting to be the next big thing. So, the same for recycling flow batteries. By the way flow batteries last many more cycles than lithium does at the moment. That is why home owners would like one instead of lithium. I like the idea of a flow battery for each block of houses or 10 blocks of houses if one block is too small. It can be computerised so that each house gets its own electricity that it produced back during the night.

[@francesconicoletti2547]

Let’s see, if these things take off at end of life there will be large tanks containing manganese and zinc in solution available. Will people, dump them in the ground or sell them for the material in them ?

[@myth-termoth1621]

manganese and zinc would be easy to recycle

[@paulhaynes8045]

It occurs to me that all these storage solutions fall into several distinct categories. For instance, gravity (hydro, weight), chemical (too many to list!), mechanical (flywheels) and heat (can't think of any examples, but there must be some). Are there other categories? If you look at potential solutions in this way, it's immediately obvious that the 'chemical' category stands out from the others in terms of environmental problems - sourcing rare ingredients, storage and handling of dangerous chemicals, maintenance difficulties, disposal/recycling, etc. The other options may have their own drawbacks, such as high capital cost, but generally are much less damaging to the environment (ie the very thing we're trying to protect with all this tech). It's arguable that, looked at in this way, ultimately, it's pointless looking for chemical solutions.

[@markhathaway9456]

One thing falls on another and that makes electricity. Gravity pulls water down onto solid ground. Sunlight is entropy I suppose, pushing light to earth or solar cells. Heat expands (entropy again i suppose) and pushes on a turbine, spinning it. Even Electric charge opened to a line without charge is entropy pushing energetic stuff apart and down the line or out around it as a field. Wind pushes on a turbine blade. Waves/tides push on a water turbine. etc etc etc Only the sunlight to solar cell seems different, but it is still light hitting something. It's just the conversion to electricity directly which is different -- rather than heating a gas to expand or directly pushing on a turbine to spin it

[@musaran2]

•Gravity is deceptively weak. We need immense dams to make it work. •Mechanical has too much wear & mass. It is good mainly for mechanical coupling. •Chemical (biofuel…) has efficiency & emission problems. •Electro-chemical (batteries, fuel cells) are powerful, dense, efficient, low-maintenance, reliable and recyclable. Still expensive, but getting harder to beat. •Electrostatic (capacitors) or superconductor systems are extremely simple in theory, but just too fringe.

[@thesilentone4024]

Thoughts on using pressure plates in sidewalks to produce energy when people walk on them and mybe add them to busy citys in spots with high foot traffic.

[@Shimstock74]

Love the intro

[@Forge17]

It seems to me that the iron air battery, discussed in a previous video, is a more cost effective and less complicated solution. It will be interesting to see how these solutions stack up in the long run, though this balance of pumped sludge mixture does sound a bit tricky to manage. I’d like to imagine green energy storage comprised of one of these state of a new battery tech, bolstered by a backup transportable supply of hydrogen (or ammonia), produced with excess grid power, to secure the integrity of the grid in any eventuality.

[@kapytanhook]

Iron air is inefficient

[@jezm1703]

I would really like to know the status of the development of the AMBRI metal batteries. These were being deployed somewhere as a grid scale energy solution and showed a lot of promise. So what's happened with this??

[@dougsheldon5560]

It's your show, phrase it as you wish.

[@timehaley]

Hell of an intro. lol After watching, I was impressed at what could be achieved if money was thought out in it's uses before you throw it at something that won't work. Good solid approach to research. Well done to MIT and this channel for bringing it to my attention.

[@GlennMartinez]

Love the intro…beat me some more! Begs the question? What is happening with the MIT announced Aluminum solid battery? Markus Johansson suggestion to do a “revisit” to previous proposed solutions….

[@xenocampanoli815]

From the perspective of your Atlantic neighbor notoriously suffering from catastrophically reducing constituent intellect, I cannot help but want to urge instead focus on those grandfather-clock like dead weight storage systems where, no matter how low understanding goes, our descendants will be able to understand WTF we were doing.

[@hypervious8878]

I'd like to know how these compare with liquid metal batteries.

[@johnschnee3934]

Salvation by grace through the LORD JESUS CHRIST our Savior who died on a cross his blood has washed us clean of SINS WHEN YOU ask to be saved it is a free gift from GOD (WE ARE SAVED BY FAITH NOT WORKS )

[@Digital-Dan]

Elon's observation that innovation is hard, but production orders of magnitudes harder, applies here. Until there's a means to production at scale, it's just a good idea.

[@keesdevos4816]

I just had a think in 1980 when I became aware of water electrolysis research showing cooling effects; at the time not economically viable (JM.O'Bockris - Energy Solutions \\pages 327\328). Since then I thought of like 40 variables that could (should) be taken into account with the than existing 8. An AI operation; but at steak is the only way electrolysis is splitting water and absorbs ambiënt room temperature energy.

[@antoonvandyck2086]

One question about the Levelised Cost Of Storage graphs. The graphs shows the slower discharging (72h) and, 300 cycles each year. But if discharging alone taks 72 hours ~ 3 days. Discharge time for 300 cycles would be 900 days ? How would that fit in 1 year?