Did the Victorians Think Ankles Were Too Scandalous?

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It's a very common belief today that Victorian women weren't allowed to show their ankles because it was just too spicy... Let's unpack that! Come learn with me about the social politics of the Victorian lady's ankle and s*xual repression.
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Sources:
No Angels in the House: The Victorian Myth and the Paget Women by M. Jeanne Peterson
The Other Victorians: A Study of Sexuality and Pornography in Mid-Nineteenth-Century England by Steven Marcus
Sexual Repression and Victorian Literature by Russell M. Goldfarb
Inventing the Victorians by Michael Sweet
The Art of Dress in the Victorian and Edwardian Eras by Otto Charles Thieme
A Question of Manners: Status and Gender in Etiquette and Courtesy by Michael Curtin
Gentlemanly Politeness and Manly Simplicity in Victorian England by John Tosh
Nobody's Angels: Domestic Ideology and Middle-Class Women in the Victorian Novel by Elizabeth Langland
The Puffery and Practicality of Etiquette Books: A New Take on Victorian Information Culture by Toni Weller
BEHIND THE HISTORY: ENGLISH ETIQUETTE BOOKS AND NINETEENTH CENTURY'S PERCEPTIONS OF WOMEN By YAĞMUR TAġ YARDIMCI
THE LADIES' BOOK OF ETIQUETTE, AND MANUAL OF POLITENESS. By Florence Hartley
Decorum, a Practical Treatise on Etiquette and Dress of the Best American Society By John A. Ruth, S. L. Louis
A Complete and Authentic Treatise on the Laws of Health and Beauty By Harriet Hubbard Ayer
The Illustrated Manners Book A Manual of Good Behavior and Polite Accomplishments By Robert De Valcourt
A Hand-book of Etiquette for Ladies By American lady
Studies in the psychology of sex. Sexual selection in man I. Touch. II. Smell. III. Hearing. IV. Vision by Havelock Ellis
Unmentionables, from figleaves to scanties by Robert Cortes Holliday

[@KazRowe]

Go forth and learn! The first 1000 people to use this link will get a 1 month free trial of Skillshare: skl.sh/kazrowe09211

[@lindadeal3344]

Ok thanks Kaz

[@chameleonhrt]

It's fun to laugh at the idea of Victorian people "being turned on" by ankles until you realize how many people nowadays get asked for feet pics.

[@dani_darko22]

@@Cardboard449 Honestly feels more true than not

[@science3816]

Lmao I'm not even attractive and I've still been asked for them

[@tinnagigja3723]

Does Queen Vic have a wikiankle page?

[@alyssapinon9670]

@@Cardboard449 Karolina Zebrowska from the future will probably do a video called “thug foot” 😂

[@rctecopyright]

@@Cardboard449 feet pics and booty eating. That's the 2010's folks

[@dominodamsel]

love that we are making fun of people in history for apparently being prudes, while we can't even say the word porn or sex in a video without having to shyly censor ourselves for fear of getting demonetized

[@imtrying2335]

did the zoomers think saying porn would impact material wealth

[@dominodamsel]

@@imtrying2335 man i dont even know what a zoomer is

[@imtrying2335]

@@dominodamsel its a synonym for gen z lol

[@cookieeees]

Probably because there are also kids on the platform, but isn't there a youtube for kids?

[@kingaj7966]

That AND the fact that shoulders are still labeled as "distracting" in school dress codes today.

[@nobodyofimprotance7615]

People in 2100 making weird jokes about us, "OMG, she has shoulders!"

[@alyssapinon9670]

*laughing and crying in middle school dress codes*

[@cookieeees]

"Look at her collarbones showing!"

[@cookieeees]

@@alyssapinon9670 "Those are some scandalous knees."

[@kimberleopold]

We make those jokes already about ourselves

[@sk1ttlz904]

We make that joke all the time in class. "Oh now! A joint! How sCaNdAlOuS!" (Wonky capitalization= said in funny voice)

[@emmamcginley5121]

I was having a crappy morning until I saw the totally accurate depiction of “man sees an ankle.” Thank you for bettering my day with knowledge and silliness.

[@socialmoth4974]

Lol, yeah that made me chuckle, too.

[@MinaOmega]

A whole year later, me too. Lol

[@audreye9465]

the BODY ROLL when the man got unruly was truly a masterpiece to behold

[@annbrookens945]

@laslunasdunas you did a masterful performance!

[@AJ-db8kc]

@@laslunasdunas8001 your channel's description is interesting, do you still plan on posting videos?

[@bandidocavalier]

@@laslunasdunas8001 you ate omg

[@AcolytesOfHorror]

“I sure as hell don't want to be defined by the clowns we call our celebrities today” was such a great closing line

[@zoetevka4653]

♥️🙏🏻🤗✨♥️

[@semoremo9548]

Truly! Imagine if in a couple of centuries or more all that remained of us was the stuff the Kardashians do, or the weird shit Megan Fox and MGK keep sharing? People might as well think that "normal" people like us were also that weird.

[@ajthewildwolf]

Agreed. They're almost all stupid assholes.

[@internetstranger-]

@@semoremo9548 damn that concerns me a LOT

[@m.streicher8286]

@@internetstranger- don't worry, we'll be too dead to care.

[@fake-inafakerson8087]

It's ironic that while talking about an era many stereotype as repressed you had often had to censor yourself more than they did

[@m.kayewilliams2550]

Loved this episode! I’m 73 years old (born 1947), my mom was born in 1927, grandmother in 1898. My grandmother told me, not only did her mother cover her piano legs with “pantalettes” but she was taught never to say the word “legs” but to refer to the “lower limbs.” My grandmother also never used body parts when serving chicken or turkey. The she always asked if you wanted white meat or dark meat (white meat meaning breast and dark meat meaning a leg or thigh). My mom through the 70s still used these terms. My grandfather (a bit less genteel) loved to tease my grandmother and, when the pastor or a guest would come to dinner, he would purposely ask for her to pass him a leg or breast. I didn’t understand why this seemed to upset her, but she would turn beet red and make an excuse to go to the kitchen for something. I also was admonished (at age 5) not to sit on the floor or cross my legs. I had no idea why but later found that it was to prevent masturbation and make sure a girl didn’t become a “floozy.” The reluctance to discuss sexual subjects led to my mother having no idea what periods were and not realizing that giving birth would involve any pain (and I was a breech birth). There are many other weird carryovers from the Victorian era still practiced even in the US long after that time was over.

[@charleston1789]

Thank you for sharing those parts of your personal family history, it is fascinating

[@m.kayewilliams2550]

@@charleston1789 what’s astounding to me is how many generations these habits, both good and bad, survive. Makes one realize the value and importance of passing on good, truthful, non-judgmental, non-hurtful Information especially to young girls and women (boys too)!

[@charleston1789]

@@m.kayewilliams2550 you’re so right, we are all products of what has come before, and it’s sad that such puritanical views are still holding back so much.

[@CiaraRouege]

I love learning about history from personal stories like these. ❤ Thank you! I'm in the habit of saying dark meat or white meat growing up going to Popeyes lol lol

[@m.kayewilliams2550]

@@CiaraRouege Aha! See it’s even become institutionalized in Popeyes and KFC!

[@jessefivey]

the absurd parallel of a video about historical prudishness being forced to use the word "cornography" in the face of corporate algorithmic censorship

[@skengels]

especially because there's LOTS and LOTS of highly graphic material on youtube, even though it's "not allowed." But for some reason, searches for anything containing terms such as "sexy" are automatically deleted from search history. Huh.

[@AveryTalksAboutStuff]

I'm imagining a victorian era only fans where people pay for ankle pics 😂

[@sapphicpanic4129]

Lmao 😭

[@RedXiongmao]

Wikiankle

[@annbrookens945]

So Bernadette Banner did it for a week and just posted her KZbin video about the experiment! Which led me to search for THIS video, which I had previously missed.

[@AveryTalksAboutStuff]

@@annbrookens945 omg that's amazing! what a queen

[@karatecorgi7685]

get saucy ankle pics painted

[@HeyItsNovalee]

The shot of the man being “unable to contain himself” at the start SENT MEEEE 😂😂😂😂 Throw down that bussy Victorian sir 😭😭

[@ukulelewars7128]

Throwing those coat tails in a circle 🥴

[@HeyItsNovalee]

@@ukulelewars7128 💀💀💀

[@Nikki_the_G]

You... don't understand what "bussy" means.....

[@HeyItsNovalee]

@@Nikki_the_G I actually do, in fact. Lmfao

[@euuuughhhh7799]

@@Nikki_the_G does bussy not work in that sentence? 😂

[@littlefox3128]

I remember as a teenager sitting with my legs open whilst wearing jeans, this is like 2014 and even then my parents were like “close your legs”, but my brother could do it. I have scoliosis and found that this way of sitting really helped my back but god forbid that I have a vagina and it might be more open under multiple layers of fabric… 🙄

[@jercasgav]

Even if I was at home and in pants as young girl in the late 80s/early 90s, I was always told to sit "ladylike", and wasn't allowed to have my legs lounging sitting over the arm of the couch, or spread at all either. It is still ingrained in my brain now at 40yrs old.

[@gkraith2995]

Men spread their legs because they have a thing called ballsack and squishing them can hurt.

[@Stephanie_Vincent]

There's a book called "The Diary of a Victorian Gentleman" or something I read years and years ago that was written by a man of the times and it's HILARIOUS in what he finds sexual: from armpits to the sound of peeing.

[@phoenixfritzinger9185]

Kinky

[@tuyetsoi4672]

Tbh those kinks r popular today too😂😂

[@moseyburns1614]

I get it.

[@notreal3163]

how’d u find my diary

[@lovinglife8966]

“Kinky” Why was that the first reply

[@Kittykat81572]

Knowing that you also love Karolina makes me super happy. She is such a gift

[@imtrying2335]

ikrr

[@minemarei768]

I actually did just flash my ankles at my roommate an her answer was, iconic as always: "Oh why fair maiden, are you trying to seduce my innocent soul with thy sexy ankles." Just thought I ought to share it with all of you for some good laughs. I love this woman!

[@gupdoo3]

I'm a trans man and hearing the phrase "people who lived their childhood being perceived as a girl" to describe the dress code experience was so satisfying thank you

[@LeoMafraArt]

That spicy ankle dance at the beggining destroyed me LOL

[@hobihope2981]

I was a tour guide at my university (which was established in 1835) and I have a little history fact about one of the buildings that relates to this! The Cullen building (the oldest one on campus) has always had 2 staircases- one for men (the stairs are normal length) and one for women (the stairs are shorter). Apparently the female steps were shorter in order to avoid women from showing their ankles when walking up the stairs! I guess maybe it was bc academia was seen as upper class in the South (and those wiiiiild and zaaaaany college boys might faint if they saw an ankle /s)

[@hobihope2981]

3 edits I wanna make but I dont want senpais heart to go away 😭: 1) Southwestern was actually established in 1840! I graduated a few years back so Im a bit rusty on my facts lol 2) It was established as a Methodist university (it is no longer) so it makes sense why they were a bit conservative 3) I would like this opportunity to let everyone know that _we were the first university in Texas,_ Baylor can suck my entire ass

[@orbitalpudding3420]

ah yes, the cullen building. carlisle i presume.

[@CyreneDuVent]

Video's not loading atm so might be addressed, but could also be slightly tangential of long skirts required by more conservative society making it more difficult to walk up steep steps quickly

[@davriecaro3036]

That is interesting, by any chance do you know when those staircases were built. Since if they were built the same time the school was established, it wouldn't make sense ( well to me at least) since women's fashion at that time was ankle length and those men would have seen women's ankles every time they are in the presence of a woman. If not, then those steps sound similar to some old houses in my country the Philippines. The stairs in those houses were shorter or shallower since they were designed for the women to go up those stairs in their skirts ( the traditional clothes of the Philippines generally had a train, sometimes many yards long if it was a formal occasion). It was even mentioned in the historical novel "Under the Sugar Sun" by Jennifer Hallock. Where how the Main character ( a haciendero or landowner ) hated them) "“The ‘princess’ steps had been fashioned deliberately shallow to allow for the modest ascent of a young lady in her skirts. Javier had stumbled down them many times, both as a child and an adult, and he never failed to swear up a storm as he did. Sometimes he wanted to take an axe to them, and he might have done that long ago if they were not such a rich Narra wood.”

[@clarimm6675]

I love these little tidbits of history! Thank you for this extra information on the topic! ☺️ Oh and while I'm at it... JHOOOOOOOPPPEEEE

[@pyro-millie5533]

“You have the most beautiful ankles of them all” actually touched my heart a bit, ngl. I have badass long surgical scars on my right one, which is cool, but not something I always see as pretty, so that was nice to hear XD

[@sammyvictors2603]

As an aspiring writer (currently writing my first book), doing historical research for a period fiction is a pain in the neck. So much checking up and separating the facts from the myths and misconceptions. But videos and channels such as yours, Kaz, are a comfort and a little helpful. Cause as you said, we will never know everything unless its been preserved.

[@eirianstarlesschild521]

in all honestly, i am an aspiring writer and a history major; one of the main reasons i prefer to set my stories in a fantasy world i made from scratch is that i get to cherry pick and not separete myth from reality, saving me a lot of time and sanity 😂😂

[@soaringspirits2267]

GIVE US THE BOOK TITLE.

[@_ZeroQueen_]

So I know the victorians weren't going around having heart attacks over ankles but I do understand how demure exposures of the body that hint at more explicit things can be very sexy. As you stated, it's not just the ankle, no matter how well turned, but the fact that the ankle is attached to a leg that includes a thigh and thighs mean...

[@ghostchiryou]

Holy shit you've just put EVERYTHING I've been thinking about recently in words!! It really annoys me too when people take the (often ridiculous) actions of wealthy people in history and apply it to all people of that time and place (even though most people both then and now... were not wealthy), or take one pamphlet that someone wrote and go "see!! look at how ridiculous those people were!" It'd be like someone a few decades from now going on to some weird conspiracy theory forums and thinking we all shared those ideas. Sometimes it feels like people talk about people of the past like they were some alien species, like they weren't even human when they're literally exactly like us - they may have lived in a rather different social milieu but they often think and act just like us, and often the problems we face today aren't all that different from the ones they did. It really upsets me sometimes to hear people talk so... callously? about people in the past :/

[@tinnagigja3723]

I find it helpful to remember that however different a person from the past may seem to me, and however difficult I find it to imagine their lives, I at least know we must share some experiences that come with inhabiting a human body: they got eyelashes stuck in their eyes, they got pimples, they got an itch in that spot they couldn't reach and had to look around for something - a tree or a stick or a fellow human - to relieve it. They had to pee and poo and fart and eat and drink and trim their nails. And we're living proof that people in the past certainly liked...other activities, if all the historical corn weren't evidence enough...

[@semoremo9548]

It baffles me even more because victorian era really wasn't THAT long ago. My great-grandparents lived in the late 19th century, and I'm a teenager, so for most older people, chances are their great-grandparents lived in the mid or even early 1800s. So when people talk about people of the past like they were weird aliens that were NOTHING like we are today, I wonder if they realize that they're literally just talking about their own great-grandparents or even grandparents.

[@pushingthroughthepaperthin9616]

It would be like if people in the future watched all those cardatian shows and thought that that is how early 21st century people lived.

[@Kiki-cs8xv]

My great grandmother was a Victorian (b 1887) and she lived to 104. So I got to spend quite a bit of time with her in my youth. I can testify that she had no problem with women's ankles. However, she did strongly dislike form-fitting pants on women (like jeans). If you went to Nana's place wearing jeans, she'd snap at you to "cover your nakedness!" Loose skirts of any length were completely fine though.

[@chunellemariavictoriaespan8752]

😶😏... Do mini-skirts count?

[@jimbrittain402]

The quality of your video aside, "cornography" is a stroke of genius. It's a construction the language needs... nay, it's needed by the whole world. I will do what I can to spread the appropriate use of the term cornography.

[@diyaa7148]

ppl have been using it on tiktok for months

[@DA-nk6gx]

@@diyaa7148 wait until this man discovers cornhub.

[@yesvanessa4574]

im really not sure if this is true, but i've heard a theory that also due to classism, ankles were sexualized because lower class housekeepers would wear shorter skirts/dresses out of necessity (as u said) and it's almost like today's tropes about the patriarch of the house and the sexy babysitter (bleh). like a man in a dominant position imposing his power over his female subordinates through sexualization i know i am not making much sense because i am so sleepy but i also just want to contribute to ur yt interactions for the algorithm

[@emma2884]

I think in at least some respect you're right.

[@alyssapinon9670]

I hate how accurate this is. Of course the men who sexualized women no matter what were the ones creating rules about “respectability” 😡

[@bisexualdisasterlol]

I'm so sorry, but you reminded me of a story I was told. My boyfriends mother runs a cleaning business, and when it first started, she wanted her and her staff to look presentable(Clean + ironed work clothes, hair brushed, no sweating/being tired in front of home owners, stuff like that). She noticed the men of the house would come on to her and her staff, and the woman would get jealous. So, she had to make her and her staff look lesser then the people of the house. Changed the uniform to be very loose(it wasn't form fitting in the first place), allowed uniforms with permanent stains on them to be worn(bleach), banned makeup and moisturizer, no nails, no crazy hair, told her staff they were allowed to show sweat and tiredness from working, things like that. She didn't want to, but it solved the problem very quickly. I was in absolute shock when she told me that, and was disgusted.

[@onewayticket2148]

@@bisexualdisasterlol That’s awful, why should the women have to take responsibility for men not choosing to control themselves and be decent human beings!!!

[@Shythalia]

There is also the very popular sexy French maid outfit.

[@hannahvizcarra3152]

i love that you brought up that we usually see more from the upper class, than the commoners. i’m an archaeology student and i’m going to be doing research at a field school in Belize this summer, and the area was more agricultural and ritual focused, with structures and artifacts that were from commoners. it really sucks that no one really pays attention or wants to do research on anything but the upper class, when everyone is important for our understanding of ancient or older time periods. loved the vid!! can’t wait for the next!

[@antthomas7916]

Did you find anything interesting in your research? Honestly, I find the history of the commoners and the "outcasts" way more interesting than that of the upper class.

[@ChelseyMoon]

Interesting that the 40’s writing about Victorian prudishness is relatively the same time difference between us now talking about 1950’s prudishness

[@zombieinfection1999]

Actually, your skit is EXACTLY how I envision Victorian men reacting to ankles.

[@barbara_LL]

we can see the differences between classes in anne with an e, the netflix show in this case, Diana is expected to be extremely proper and Anne not necessarily, Anne shows her knees without much issue, but Diana doesn't, and their friendship is ruined multiple times because Diana's mom doesn't feel like Anne is proper enough to be friends with Diana, there is a clear class difference between then, and Diana can never be at "Anne's level"

[@teodorasavoiu4664]

Yesss, I remember how much Diana's family pressures the daughters to go to finishing school.

[@SebastianSeanCrow]

7:35 in some ways Alice in Wonderland can be read as being about puberty and for sure it def carries the undertone of growing up in a world with certain etiquette rules and trying to learn them

[@slicedloaff]

i mean it was written for a 10 year old bc ✨paedophilia✨, always read creepy to me since the white roses being painted red could suggest the tainting of innocence with an AFAB puberty

[@SebastianSeanCrow]

@@slicedloaff yeah it’s seen as a metaphor for menstruation. It was written for a 10 yo the author was mentoring (I think it was his cousin?) but from what I heard he did the responsible thing and recognized his attraction to her and was broke off the mentor ship . He did have pics of her sister, but there’s no way of knowing if it’s just normal baby pics or something else.

[@cecilijaberg6037]

They were nudes.

[@slicedloaff]

@@SebastianSeanCrow nah he proposed to her when she was 11 💀 i read it was her parents who stepped in ? either way i’m glad it didn’t get as bad as it definitely could’ve given the era

[@SebastianSeanCrow]

@@cecilijaberg6037 yes but this was also the time photos of children in various states was very common. Not being of that time + not seeing the photos myself I can’t say the context for them.

[@NessaDalloway]

"Every generation wants to feel smarter than the last". SO TRUEEEEEE, some people swear they're so woke for talking shit about corsets, I'm so sick of it D: By the way Duna's contribution made me spit my drink, the dance moves were just hilarious!

[@Aceofspades2006]

I think it’s good we have lil narcissism in way we can make everything”better” but when it comes to faster and cheaper that’s not better that’s just dumb. If u get what I’m saying like I definitely think next gen is going to lil better then the next but also worse like with plastic got better but also worse. But I guess I’m just explaining evolution now.

[@MNkno]

Interesting. My grandfather was "an ankle man" who liked the sight of "a well-turned ankle"... but really puffy ankles can indicate illness, heart or kidney disease, or poor circulation with the symptom of edema. Given the clothing of the time, it would have been hard to tell how healthy a woman might be - was she slender and fit, or slender with a heart condition. Trim ankles can indicate good health.

[@653j521]

These days, there's no such thing as liking what your generation tells you to like. It is all a survival instinct. What balderdash! Your hands, your teeth, your walk, everything tells a story.

[@strawberrywheels]

sorry that u must live with the knowledge that ur grandpa was horny for ankles

[@generatoralignmentdevalue]

I think at the end, you did a great job of pinning down why history was my least favorite subject in school, but now half my favorite youtubers are history nerds making video essays.

[@razminfox1787]

For me it’s learning about what they don’t tell you

[@MissingRaptor]

Thank you for mentioning that some of us, lets say more socially awkward or inept, people (in which include myself) thrive in a society that has stricter social guidelines. If you're really bad at something, having well laid out rules to follow is a blessing 😓

[@nataliaalmeida-nacillustra5954]

Got here faster than documentaries about deadly corsets.

[@chrisball3778]

One thing that sometimes annoys me is the tendency to look at previous eras as a monoculture, when there was often a wide diversity of values and opinions, even within places and social classes. The 'Victorians' are typically portrayed as stuffy, conformist and conservative, but they'd never have recognised themselves by that description- they were the most radical and free-thinking people who had ever lived on earth up to that point. People were more literate, better educated and more politically engaged than ever before. Interest in progressive politics surged, whether that's feminism, socialism or anarchism. New religious and spiritual movements were popping up everywhere. It was an era of unrivalled progress in technology and incredible diversification of artistic, musical and literary styles. For those living through the era it was a truly wild, unpredictable time, an age of wonders where thousands of new ways of living were being imagined every day. There probably were a few creeps perving over womens' ankles, but there were also martial-arts practicing suffragist radicals who'd have knocked them out cold for it.

[@chunellemariavictoriaespan8752]

True... I remember women are encouraged to weaponize hat pins against perverts...

[@welpppppppppppppp]

whenever ppl on here say corn instead of p * r n i always think “country girls make do”…. “victorians make do?”

[@victoriadiesattheend.8478]

Most underrated comment

[@samanthahayman4539]

It was my understanding that the covering piano legs trope, very connected to the sexy ankles idea, could be laid at the door of Fanny Trollope (mother of Anthony), who wrote 'Domestic Manners of the Americans'. Apparently she told of a (possibly apocryphal) headmistress of an American girl's school who covered the legs of the piano and insisted the girls referred to furniture legs as limbs, and never mentioned those of humans. The origin of the story now used to ridicule the supposed prudery of the Victorians was in a story intended to lampoon just the prudery of Americans.

Which explains why I never heard of it before (I'm British).

[@AerynKDesigns]

can confirm as well as someone assigned (incorrectly) female at birth and who "developed" at 9 ... none of this made sense back then. I'm wearing a shirt, why is the cut suddenly an issue when it wasn't a month ago? I spend all day playing in the mud and creek, of course I want my shorts to be up high so they get less muddy. What is going on?! The only saving grace I had was the late 90s the actual fashion in some circles was to have the bra straps out and wear spaghetti straps, so I always just fobbed my mother off when she was constantly tucking them in and pulling my shorts down. I'm not going to do anything, mom, and why is it my job to bend to boys that want me to just because of the way I look?

[@seedsofsedition]

You blew my mind. I just realized the reason I’m obsessed with the lives of people around the industrial revolution is because there is a record of the existence of poorer classes. Catalogues, magazines, and brochures were marketed directly to the working class and are still accessible today (I own a number of them). Duuuuuuuuuuude 🤯

[@LGsBarbieGirl411]

"I sure as hell don't want to be defined by the clowns we call our celebrities today." Thank you for instilling this fear in me. A great video as always with a lot of food for thought!

[@Abingusbabe]

“Noted rat from the sewer, queen Victoria” 😂😂😂😂

[@ButchBirdie]

The victorian guy throwing it back was iconic. Also ur channel's theme slaps omg

[@AdorableTheNerd]

fantastic and thoughtful video once again!!! something i haven't seen ppl really discuss re: victorian sexual repression is expectations around masculine presentation, ie things like how men's formal wear expectations required them to cover up much MORE than women, etc. obviously the consequences for men were much less severe bc Patriarchy and all that but no one understands exactly HOW slutty the colin firth wet shirtsleeves scene is in context 😭 or any scene with a man in just his shirt/without his tie/cravat/etc in a period piece and i think that's tragic

[@EXO-L45]

Can you tell me where did you learn this thing from? I haven't heard about this at all, even though I know that everyone was covered in the Victorian Era including men (and the notion being always presentable and proper), which I think many people overlook.

[@AdorableTheNerd]

@@EXO-L45 u can find men's etiquette guides from several different eras online describing, among other things, the expected standards of dress dependent upon location and event.

[@EXO-L45]

@@AdorableTheNerd Ahh. I do have few of Etiquette books for gentlemen, but I haven't read them completely. It's usually really detailed and specific (both for women and men, from what I've read).

[@euansmith3699]

[monocle pops out of eye socket] I say, a well turned ankle can turn a chap's head, ding-dong, rather; what? Thanks for another interesting and informative video., and some cool dance moves at the end.

[@EdenYell]

I feel like the "Sexy ankle" issues that were around were more jokes about foot fetishists because they seem to be the butt of the joke in every era

[@IndigoYoung]

I know this is a random request but could you possibly do a video about the American Prohibition era? I feel like that is another period of time that has been lost entirely in the public consciousness to gangsters and Al Capone but actually had some serious cultural meaning beyond the Hollywoodisms

[@653j521]

Let's see, how would this channel define that in terms of British rulers? That's a toughie. George V. Early Windsorian Era? Georgian Revival? 1920-1933. The thing about Prohibition was it straddled the Roaring Twenties and the Great Depression, aka the Great National Hangover. It also included women who had recently gotten the vote learning about political action, and the rise of social science, the data gathering about our nation, much of it by women and what to do about the unhappy statistics. For many people it was dealing with the fear that the US couldn't function with the close of the frontier allowing misfits to blow off steam, and the subsequent rise of the myths of the Old West and the first push to preserve land for generations as yet unborn. And there was the bad feeling that came from our involvement in WWI right after the good feelings of our invasion of Mexico and our imperialism in the Spanish-American War, running with the big dogs. One might say the first half of the 20th century set the stage for all the joys and woes of the rest: the rise of science as a guide and the push back from religion; canned food and mass produced clothing; ragtime and jazz; the national move from farms/ranches/small towns to cities; radios, movies, and telephones, with the vast speeding up of communication and news (much of it sensationalized and fake); buying on credit; the revived KKK taking positions of power in many states, including Indiana where they ran the government in the Twenties; standardizing industry so, for instance, you could buy a lamp in NYC and when you moved to Los Angeles still get a bulb, cord, and screws that fit (thank Pres. Harding and his Sec of Commerce Herbert Hoover for that); horses to motors; political Progressivism mobilized to fight machine political bosses and corruption. The 3 R's to a high school education and beyond; teachers barely older than students to normal schools. Medical and technological breakthroughs. And as with many innovations, the barriers had not yet gone up to prevent people who were not white males of a certain wealth and power from joining in the excitement, for instance in "looping the loop and defying the ground." But defining the massive changes as the American Prohibition Era artificially constrains understanding to a specific 13 years that would have been tumultuous no matter what the alcohol laws were. Look at Britain and you can easily see that. I particularly like that the 20th century began, right on time in 1901 which every educated person knew was the right year not 1900, with the death of Victoria and William McKinley, followed by the rise of their opposites, Edward VI and Theodore Roosevelt. It was a dynamic time that left some people confused and searching for definite answers as an anchor but gave others the feeling of infinite possibilities and joy. (My family felt the joy.) Anyone who thinks things are changing faster now than ever before does not know what a whirlwind THAT was!

[@k-majik]

I know which kind of Victorians you're talking about, but this whole video I couldn't help but think of modern people in Melbourne just freaking out over ankles.

[@michaelkenner3289]

Glad to see I'm not the only Australian who suffers this problem studying modern history.

[@ladyredl3210]

Kaz being their best self in that little sketch gave me life. Also as an amateur historian, I’m here for this.

[@mossgrows6540]

dear god.... not a vagoinus......

[@cincocats320]

I'm so flustered by this shameful open discussion of that which should remain hidden that I shall have the vapors for the rest of the day! Simply too shocking for words.

[@marcuswalters8093]

I actually saw a video from the 70s of a victorian woman talking about the ankle thing, saying she remembered men leaning out of buses looking at an exposed ankle. I wonder whether her memory got muddled with years of media since then, giving her a false memory since she was quite young at the time.

[@Donteatacowman]

I appreciate this!! I wish more people remembered to think of history this way, but your point about being war-focused is so true. People think history is names and dates because that's what they learn in school... and I guess, to be fair, those things are probably the most indisputably recorded and agreed-upon and may show up on standardized tests. To me, learning about history is similar to learning about another culture (or, if it's the history of a people group who I'm not a part of, obviously that's the case) - if you impose your own cultural standards on it, you're gonna have a bad time, but it's not blameless either. But if you approach it with a blank slate, try to disregard stereotypes, and learn how they understood themselves (while also acknowledging that no single person's experience can speak for a whole group), you're probably going to get a more well-rounded idea of humanity in general (and understand the limits of your own culture in comparison).

[@sarahgray430]

The thing to remember about the supposed prudery of the Victorian era is that the people who are most prim and proper in public are often the most utterly depraved in private (in fact, Queen Victoria herself was by her own accounts passionately in love with Albert) and that social norms were not the same for all social classes or all European cultures. Indeed, the women in my husband's family (who were Finnisht Lutherans) would have drunk vodka engaged in mixed nude saunas with the rest of their village every Saturday to be nice and clean for Church the next day, but they were no more lewd in their conduct than my own Presbyterian ancestresses, who really WERE the sort of people who covered the legs of their pianos, shunned the use of alcohol save for purely medicinal use and believed that "self abuse" led to mental and physical weakness. Indeed, a lot of these ideas persisted well into the 20th Century, and my mother STILL thinks I'm going to Hell for drinking hard liquor and wearing the wrong kind of underwear!

[@Truthbeuponyall]

9:06 I recently learned about the Annales Method, an approach to history that focuses more on the common folk of the times and I gotta say it's really interesting how little we talk about the average person in certain times. This part of the video just made me think about it and it's super interesting!!

[@nuggetpai]

It's not possible to see history and time periods as they were, because our look at it is always tinted by the ideas and values of the times we grew up in. First thing professors taught us for studying history at university

[@bellablue5285]

I appreciate the level of detail you capture for your sources and in your videos. This one seems like it will be a ride due to the need to address the topics with a bit of circumlocution (I'm sorry, I may have giggled at the mental image of literal risque corn, but hey, it works)

[@New_Wave_Nancy]

Yes, cornography cracked me up although I totally understand why it was used as a substitution.

[@ardenboshier7431]

This topic immediately made me think about how upper class male artists would fetishise working class women (like iirc the impressionists were super into laundresses and sex workers) and how that like contributed to the culture of sexual exploitation and rape culture

[@erinjohnston4041]

An interesting perspective I have seen is that ankles were provocative because they were a thing you might see in public not despite it. That you might feasably see a glimpse of them rather than body parts that would be more hidden

[@averypickrell]

i’m binge watching your videos while hiding in the bathroom during lunch since I have no friends lol

[@KazRowe]

Ahh I remember doing this in highschool 😔 hang in there!! I’m glad my videos can keep you company.

[@New_Wave_Nancy]

This was another excellent video, Kaz. As to history and fashion, lately I've been thinking about how in past centuries when a big butt was in fashion, ladies would strap on a false rump or bustle and drape their skirts over it. The scary thing today is that big butts being fashionable results in some women opting for Brazillian butt lifts - a very dangerous cosmetic procedure.

[@magickconchshell]

Ankle discourse in the morning? Heel yea

[@victorian_da]

If you have a podcast PLEASE TELL ME I could listen to you talk about every era from medieval to colonial!

[@lucbbb5464]

I can't stop replaying that "ankle skit". Literally the most hilarious thing ever. Wonderful vid

[@EmelieWaldken]

Love how you took the flash-the-ankle joke and just... went kinda nuts (in a very good way) about Victorians and their morals and cartoons and contexts and classes and and and. Super interesting. And that reenacting bit with the Victo man getting all flushed and nervous about the showing ankle, Chef's Kiss. Also thank you from my ankles.

[@Dasjania]

Really good video, well researched and great emphasis on classism. I knew most of these, but working women wearing pants during Victorian era is a new one for me.

[@evanthia505]

Your channel's notification always brings a smile to my face

[@charliesourire]

I'm so glad I found this channel 😩 I'm a major history nerd and majoring in Anthropology and History currently and this is peak content right here

[@renaigh]

I like to think exposing one's heel is in reference to Achilles and meant that anyone who did 'reveal the heel' were being vulnerable rather than closed off anti-socials.

[@clarandie]

10:42 - how DARE you accuse me of having a butt!!!!!! you made some really wonderful points about history focussing on the wealthy rather than normal people - and as always, this was a really interesting and fun video! loved the skit at the beginning too :')

[@anagabrieltrevino5439]

One pretty adequate analogy is that of the peak of magazine popularity and the contemporary social media influenser. A magazine with an incredibly attractive person on the cover might promise to tell you about the "ten must try *insert salacious thing here*" but does everyone actually abide by that? Some people follow fashion and media more than others and that was the case too throughout history. Does every single house you visit look like a celebrity's Instagram feed? Maybe or maybe not. But is it still considered a desirable aesthetic? I really like this kind of topic! It tickes my brain and helps humanize the people of the past! :)

[@HecmarJayam]

I loved how you explained the lack of context as well as the insufferable bias in every generation regarding history. Thank you!

[@darkstarr984]

Wow this is such a huge thing. It's why the "big picture" history I learned better through a cartoon like Liberty's Kids than any textbook and relished reading letters and seeing old photos of people just going about their lives. It explains why I thought all the manners rules my mom insisted I learn are like "okay, I see this because this is something valuable to everyone" and some were "wow that's utterly stupid." Because the manners that make sense are usually just the type of manners that little old church ladies have and they're sweet and lovely, and the ones that don't make sense are usually some silly "high-class" Victorian holdovers like the ones you mentioned.

[@maef7026]

My ankles are blushing.

[@annitendo]

Your friend's dancing killed me!! So good

[@larkandmallow]

i'm completely obsessed with her interpretation of victorian men not being able to contain themselves

[@iggysmice3087]

Once my parents were told to not let me wear a skirt or grow my hair too long at school because "the boys can get physical sometimes." I was 10, in a special education class for other mid-needs autistic and adhd kids. I was born in 1997.

[@gjhslibraryrocks]

I’m so glad I came across this video. I assist my MIL in teaching etiquette classes to kids. I struggle with it. She grew up wealthy and I am trailer trash. (Said with love). Some of what we teach helps me. I’m ND and struggle in some social situations. I feel like I’ve been given the decoder working with her. But it’s also incredibly classist and gendered and inaccesible. Some of it makes sense. Eating to prevent messes. Speaking clearly and with confidence. Who knew I was using forks and knives wrong for so long? And using them correctly makes eating so much easier and cleaner?? But I have to keep my one tattoo covered and she won’t allow my SILs to help us because they don’t fit her brand. I feel like both servant class and family with her and it’s tough navigating. This video was a great watch. Thank you.

[@catherinerw1]

Related... have you seen the thing going around Twitter, about a medical student taking her viva, who was reprimanded for inappropriate dress, because she wore her very smart, business-suitable below-knee tailored dress without tights?!

[@magbiblue7045]

just want to say, today has been mostly frustrating and not great and this single-handedly turned that around. i was straight up CACKLING (sorry neighbors), so thanks for an awesome video

[@bekah728]

When i broke my ankle and leg the first surgery I had didn't go well and the surgeon said I had small and delicate bones. Like that was a good thing. I had to have 3 more surgeries with another surgeon. I would much rather had strong thick ankles.

[@codename495]

I’m sorry you went through that. May your future bring you stout, generous and strong ankles.

[@dointhecarlton]

You’re by far my favorite KZbinr. I love seeing your videos on my homepage. You’re so funny and informative and generally interesting. You have good delivery as well. I hope to see you have your own show one day.

[@live_for_the_aesthetic955]

I love your historical videos! You always have such deep analyses, but also add some humor to balance things out. I was just curious, where do you get your more "vintage" and "older" clothing that I see in some videos (like the one talking about women with short hair)? I really like those pieces

[@livmaria4824]

I'm sure she mentioned in another video that she sews them! So could be that. I agree though, they are beautiful!

[@live_for_the_aesthetic955]

@@livmaria4824 okay, thanks! I’m still working my way through her videos, so I haven’t seen all them. That’s really cool tho!

[@arcadiaberger9204]

My favorite "Victorian ankle" note was a "Gallagher and Shean" parody (a popular style of music-hall comedy in which two singers would share a song, tossing lines back and forth). Gallagher sang a verse about sitting in a park reading the poetry of Pushkin, from which a passing woman distracted him: *_The sight of a well-turned ankle forces Pushkin from my mind_* Shean: *_Forces Pushkin, Mister Gallagher?_* Gallagher: *_Pushes foreskin, Mister Shean._*

[@emilyeaston8506]

Legs 'becoming non- controversial in the theater' is like how covid can't get you once you sit down at a table in a restaurant.

[@r.h.1988]

There's this documentary I was suggested recently wherein actors played out the phonetic recordings written out by a man who wanted to preserve the lower classes. It's a fascinating watch, and really gives some semblance of that 'just like me' history.

[@joeyoung431]

What you're describing here is what I call the Keith Richards effect - a joke becomes pervasive enough to cannibalise serious commentary. It's always a relief to see someone trying to reverse that process. Keep fighting the good fight.

[@drendraleigh4722]

I JUST finished your video on the green knight. This is a sign, I must subscribe now

[@averyb9568]

My friend mentioned the 60s being super repressed and I had to laugh. Her perspective of the 60s was her church parents and mine was grandparents with a shared carpet playboy theme bar in their basement.

[@mammoneymelon]

people act like no one in the 2020s is repressed lol, the reality is that every time period will have different people with different ideas - imagine someone 50 years from now thinking that radical evangelicals represent all of our current culture lol

[@ltlbuddha]

The main point about Victorians and ankles I've hear made is the relativity of what is sexual. And even though the ankle thing isn't accurate, the basic premise of what is sexual being defined by what is "normal" still has weight. As you have mentioned, it isn't quite that simple, but this doesn't mean it is completely irrelevant.

[@WitchOracle]

Victoria's journal entries are *so charming!!* I didn't necessarily expect her to be as prudish as our modern perception would imply, but I wasn't expecting all that sweetness, either!

[@gillianbergh7002]

I doubt if she imagined that anyone else, apart from those she might choose to share with would read them. In 'The Diary of a Young Girl', Anne Frank wrote about her periods. After her death her father had the diary published after editing the 'embarrassing parts.'

[@tanjahorvatserbiaoldslavsh4685]

I want to learn more about ordinary people from history. The school material is boring and deals with irrelevant facts. You learn only dates in history class.

[@EvanC881]

I really appreciate your trans inclusive language

[@YouTubeSupportSucks]

we'll they're trans themself so I'd hope so

[@Me0wXx]

I watched your video on victorian doctors on my break at work the other day and I just wanted to say I love your content? I have been desperately seeking a way to consume history content that isn't dripping in classism and I just think you do a good job of it. Hopefully more content creators similar to you will arise over the next few years ! ❤️❤️❤️

[@fredranzalot4849]

"The trail of time we follow often isn't about the small details of everyday life" And that's why I'm not interested in most history.

[@im19ice3]

its like future historians making assumptions about our society based exclusively on cosmo magazines 😂

[@deanneb6925]

Was literally thinking about how much I love your videos this morning, and lo and behold. Thank you for this blessing

[@krow7639]

i am very much in love with this whole channel :,3

[@antonioricardoscozze2417]

I really appreciate your thoughtful analysis and awareness that history isn't so much the story of long-ago people, it's the story run through the sieve of not-so-long-ago people. I particularly like the fact that you remind us much of what we "know" about the past is based upon a self-serving sense of superiority. Keep up the excellent work and I look forward to your next vid.