Ken Ham vs William Lane Craig - Ham & AiG News

Ken Ham accused William Lane Craig of pseudo-intellectual arrogance and mocking God's Word, while Craig thinks that the prospect of a young earth is unthinkable and requiring interpretational backflips to accept.
Who's right? Who's wrong? You decide.
Thanks to Roohif, as the voice of Ken Ham
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[@tylerwest719]

Nothing funnier than two theists arguing over who has the real “truth.”

[@mrrolandlawrence]

@Logical Musicman because resurrecting dead guys, healing the blind, miracle fish, walking on water and coming back from the dead days later only to fly to heaven... yeh that must have happened. creating the world in 7 days and talking snakes are just symbolic.

[@KLanio-lr8yv]

We need a code duello, they could solve it that way A win win win win. Thing

[@tylerwest719]

@@mrrolandlawrence Yeah, I guess Ken Ham is, at the least, consistent in his stupidity. WLC likes to cherry pick his stupidity.

[@simongiles9749]

It always reminds me of, say, Star Wars fans having a heated argument over how The Force works.

[@RadicOmega]

@@mrrolandlawrence yep

[@rojh9351]

Alien vs Predator: whoever wins, we lose. Ham vs Craig: whoever loses, we laugh.

[@DemonicRemption]

@Roj H I envy your ability to do that. Because someone who serves the same God as these two, I feel embarrassed for them. I don't know how men who have outlived me by three to four decades can be so ignorant about science... Actually no, wait I can, as this is what happens when you have a sheltered and unchallenged belief your whole life. Starting to think white people are lucky in that regard.

[@theanti-anti-intellectual5026]

They both lose....just as soon as they open their mouths and spew diarrhea.

[@DemonicRemption]

@@theanti-anti-intellectual5026

[@duckhawkninja3614]

@@DemonicRemption Indeed, it can be so embarrassing to be Christian with people like these clowns spewing their nonsense 24/7

[@DemonicRemption]

@@duckhawkninja3614 IKR? And while Christians with formal educations are quite common, we get a bad rep because these goobers are the loudest and proudest. So it's a wonder that trying to explain the reconciling of belief in God and knowing scientific facts is difficult because these nimcompoops drew the line in the sand.

[@empressoftheknownuniverse]

It's like watching 4 year olds argue about the order of Santa's reindeer. 😝

[@tardigrade8019]

Blitzen is on the right you heretic!

[@sinisterminister6478]

Everybody always talks about Comet but no one ever says a word about poor Tide.😂😂😂

[@sinisterminister6478]

@@tardigrade8019 Stoke the fire, summon the Inquisition! Lmao 😂

[@michaelsommers2356]

@@tardigrade8019 Whose right?

[@devb9912]

OMG! There is no such thing as flying reindeer!!! Santa's sleigh is rocket powered; it says so in the text.

[@Payne2view]

Oh great, now Ken Ham has made me agree with something WLC has said. What a way to start March 2021.

[@EdwardHowton]

It's the only thing you can rely on believers for. They will tell you, in great detail, why the other nearly-identical moron is wrong, and prove themselves to be morons in the process but be too much of a moron to notice and will just keep moron-ing.

[@Bill_Garthright]

In a way, I can understand Ken Ham's problem. Craig's god sure doesn't seem like much of a deity. He thinks 'God' just mutated a species of animal and stuck a "soul" into it,... then let the whole species struggle on, for generation after generation, bloodily evolving into people? Craig is just _so close_ to getting it right. Yeah, mutations and evolution (biological _and_ cultural) made us who we are. But he just doesn't want to give up on his god. Craig is smarter than Ham, and better informed, but he's no more willing to accept reality.

[@guytheincognito4186]

@@Bill_Garthright Yeah though in craigs head the evolution process is no doubt a cleaner process than reality actualy demonstrate.. Just saying..

[@Bill_Garthright]

@@guytheincognito4186 True.

[@ceejay0137]

I agree! I can't stand either of them, but for WLC to make more sense than Ken Ham really does show how bonkers Ham is.

[@mathewahrens4475]

It’s two comic book nerds fighting over the what powers did a 2,000 year old superhero have. Nerds!!!!!!

[@DJHastingsFeverPitch]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/nX_Xn4GVec6DadE

[@uncleanunicorn4571]

In another 2k years, we'll be arguing whether Spider-Man's web shooters were embedded or mechanical. Get it wrong, and it's a holy war.

[@DemonicRemption]

@Mathew Ahrens That's insulting because nerds are actually smart. These men, not so much.

[@lebojay]

@@uncleanunicorn4571 They’re embedded. Otherwise any man could make himself Spider-Man. The whole Spider-Man ethos means nothing if the web dealies just bolt on. Repent, sinner, and revise thy wayward path! (BTW, 2000 years from now this comment will be taken as a contemporary eyewitness account of Spidey’s embedded web dealies)

[@uncleanunicorn4571]

@@lebojay Nay Heretic, for no mere pretender could match the speed, strength and spider sense of the Holy web slinger. - in 2k years my words shall be an epistle to comfort the true believing spider faithful.

[@supergripas]

Remember god is not the author of confusion 🤣

[@Sharetheroad3333]

Yup

[@haggismcbaggis9485]

Now if the Bible said that God IS the author of confusion, then the whole thing would make sense.

[@devb9912]

*"Who's right, who's wrong?"* Neither, both.

[@kiabvaj5656]

Both are right because God works in mysterious ways. Amen 🙏

[@thallesregis]

If I had to choose, based on what Paulogia said at the end that WLC is more right about the science, as in he doesn't deny it (at least not all of it) and that Ken Ham is more right about theology and is a hardcore science denier, then I'd pick WLC in a heartbeat. Someone being correct in theology doesn't impact my personal life but science denialism can impact all our lives.

[@kiabvaj5656]

@@thallesregis One thing is for sure, Christianity itself is an evolutionary process.

[@roqsteady5290]

@@kiabvaj5656 it is certainly a process of diversification.

[@NeverTalkToCops1]

They both have the foul odor of delusion and dishonesty.

[@paulhammer2279]

This reinforced a meme I saw recently with a Mark Twain quote: "The Christian Bible is a drug store. Its contents remain the same; but the medical practice changes."

[@usmagrad87]

Hence the number of denominations of Christianity. Each one is cherry-picking from different part of the drug store to heal the same “illness.”

[@manusiabumi7673]

You can say the same to the qur'an and other "holy" books

[@BugsandBiology]

"The Bible is clear and unambiguous" they say as they argue over different interpretations of the same book.

[@theolerazzledazzle250]

This is literal semantics. They interpret it two different ways then claim bad faith on the behalf of the other. This is what religious people have been doing for thousands of years.

[@jasonsabbath6996]

I'm anti-semantic! 🤣😂

[@bodan1196]

It is sort of part and parcel of the concept working in religions; divide and conquer. Forcing a "us vs them" way of thinking. When this becomes who you are, your are a true believer.

[@NovaSaber]

As much as I think Craig is dishonest in other ways, it seems to me that only one of them (Ham) is outright misrepresenting the other's positions.

[@theolerazzledazzle250]

@@NovaSaber I actually don’t think either of them are being dishonest. I think they both truly believe what they’re saying. I just meant to point out that this is one of the problems with religion itself. Two people can read the same book and have majorly different interpretations of it then claim the other person must be trying to lead other people astray since they didn’t come to the same conclusion.

[@theolerazzledazzle250]

@@jasonsabbath6996 I read that as something different and was very concerned for about 5 seconds.

[@weldabar]

Craig: does mental gymnastics so that he can believe in both reality and Christianity Ham: outright denies reality so that his Bible can be literal I think Craig is halfway there, but just won't allow himself to see the truth fully. Ham is absolutely blind to truth & reality.

[@OdinRN_47]

The real question: is WLC grifting or sincere? I actually think he is sincere, unlike Copeland, Graham, Osteen, etc.

[@desperadox7565]

Good summary. 👍

[@germanvisitor2]

@@OdinRN_47 What's Osteen? I only know Dongsteen.

[@mikeharrison1868]

Craig is less wrong. I was at least partly on his side re science. But still had fairly strict views on biblical inspiration. If I'd been more relaxed I would have been able to carry on being a Christian. Instead I had to become a ferocious atheist, at least for the first few years after I deprogrammed myself. P.S. in colossians the word emptied himself to become human.

[@keionrandolph8795]

@@mikeharrison1868 what?

[@chrisgreen8803]

They often accuse us atheists of taking the bible out of context... But they obviously can’t agree on just what the context is... And I’m not only talking about KH and WLC

[@匕卄モ匕卄丹れKち]

The context is whatever they want to pretend it is.

[@DemonicRemption]

@@匕卄モ匕卄丹れKち *Sigh* Sad but true, which is why as a Christian, I don't trust other interpretations of the bible. Especially since they use it for self interest, as opposed to providing enlightenment.

[@uncleanunicorn4571]

The argument itself over foundational truths shows how flimsy iron age folklore is when measured against expectations of a supreme being.

[@pansepot1490]

@@DemonicRemption you shouldn’t watch atheist videos. They could shake your faith. 😁

[@DemonicRemption]

@Chris Green As a Christian I know what you mean. But that's why I sort through the riffraff, study the theology and meditate on scripture. As a result I've come to my own conclusion which have worked for me. Only time will tell if I made a mistake or not.

[@Jvhh9]

This is like watching to grown ups fight over who has the best fantasy football team.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

Bring in Ray Comfort and the Hovinds to spice it up even more.

[@romithromith]

Wouldn't it be fun to send a busload of vocal flat earthers to the Ark and let Ken Ham fend off those more rigidly literal than he is.

[@PabloSanchez-qu6ib]

Ooh! Nathan versus Ham... I would buy ark tickets to see that.

[@tempestive1]

Oooo, can we fool them somehow? Say there's a bus to the edge of the earth, which is obviously located in America, as all things are?

[@garyjaensch7143]

Na much more fun listening to science hero’s. kzbin.info/aero/PLf-d0LviJevc-824-_n8-P86e1iSDLlus

[@maninalift]

I love that Craig's evidence against the claim that he is arrogant is that he never "for one moment" questions his own humility... Case closed I guess. You knocked that one out of the park Dr C. EDIT: 3:16 - "if I thought for one moment that I were arrogant and that God were opposing me, then I would step down from Christian ministry" 3:00 - for context that Craig believes arrogance *implies* the opposition of God.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

Can you imagine these two running for president? Conservative Christian voters would faint with joy.

[@NeverTalkToCops1]

Craig never, for one moment questions his various foul odors he emanates.

[@1970Phoenix]

They are both extremely arrogant and self-righteous individuals.

[@guytheincognito4186]

@@1970Phoenix Hence why it's so enjoyable watching them have a go at each other. XD

[@DavidJohn-ig4sy]

What? Thats not what he said

[@ericsbuds]

"there he goes, throwing me under the ark" hahah!!!!!

[@garyjaensch7143]

Na the other mobs more fun, you get to go to Mars to see your relis if your with nye, get reborn over and over again and win by having no sense of self if your with Sammy, dicky and krauss really do think it’s nothing, Degrassi getting a bit warmer talking about dimensions, What’s your theory? kzbin.info/aero/PLf-d0LviJevc-824-_n8-P86e1iSDLlus

[@alanw505]

There are two kinds of creationists; the deceiver's and the deceived.

[@ElSnakeObwb]

Heya Alan, long time no see.. good to see you (And of course I agree with what you say)

[@lnsflare1]

Hey, there's also the clinically delusional.

[@goldenalt3166]

I think most are both.

[@bobwalters3747]

*deceivers

[@goldenalt3166]

@@bobwalters3747 Interestingly, Christian theology makes both correct.

[@KalleVilenius]

Never thought I'd see the day, but it has come: I'm on WLC's side.

[@abderianagelast7868]

Honestly same. The only thing I agreed with Ham on was that Craig does come across as arrogant plenty of times, but that's the only thing I felt Ham got right.

[@KaiHenningsen]

@@abderianagelast7868 And of course, the same can be said about Ham.

[@simongiles9749]

A broken clock tells the right time twice a day.

[@zaimatsu]

I'm not :-) Moderate christian will almost always "win" with fundamentalist one in their general approach, but they are both wrong in their epistemology about god. It's like I would agree with "I'll try this science stuff" flatearther vs "earth is obviously flat" flatearther.

[@elihyland4781]

How you say “opposite of Sophie’s choice”?

[@wishusknight3009]

"gods word" = "my interpretation"

[@goldenalt3166]

There are those that believe that Jesus appears to people today in NDEs, visions, sculptures, pictures, etc. I keep asking them what message he's bringing. They seem to be convinced that the resurrection is proof of a theological message but none of his subsequent appearances mean anything except, "yep, your were right all along."

[@wishusknight3009]

@@goldenalt3166 its amazing how god always agrees with them.

[@goldenalt3166]

@@wishusknight3009 or not surprising at all given what I believe "God" is.

[@wishusknight3009]

@@goldenalt3166 4 out of the 5 voices in my head claiming to be god agree with you.

[@goldenalt3166]

@@wishusknight3009 Burn the heretic. :)

[@fred_derf]

If I wasn't already familiar with William Lane Craig's brand of reality-denial, Ken Ham would be making me think that Criag's a rational person.

[@uninspired3583]

Lol!

[@GuyNamedSean]

Absolutely. I never imagined that I would be listening to Craig and thinking he sounded reasonable, but he absolutely does when stuck next to Ken Ham.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

Both of these self important primadonna's are using unAmerican, antidemocratic fiction from the Bronze Age as talking points.

[@uninspired3583]

@@JamesRichardWiley since when is "American" the stick by which we measure truth?

[@aralornwolf3140]

@@uninspired3583 , Since American Exceptionalism was taught...

[@_a.z]

"God's word" = what ancient, uninformed Middle Eastern tribes happened to think 2000 years ago!

[@AarmOZ84]

Well, 3,000 years ago for the creation story in Genesis, but it is based off of an ancient Mesopotamian cosmology that is at complete odds with modern science.

[@axer3515]

Two unarmed men in a battle of wits. Both guy brought sticks to a gun fight.

[@Andreas_42]

I would rephrase this to: To this battle of wits, both men came unarmed 😁

[@harrycooper5231]

Happiness is a new Paulogia Video. 👌

[@drumanddrummer465]

Two world-renowned Christians who are both totally convinced that the Bible is the pure, infallible, inerrant, authoritative revelation from an all-powerful, all-knowing supreme creator and sustainer of the universe, and they can’t even agree on whether the very first chapters should be taken literally or figuratively.... Maybe God is the author of confusion?

[@jonovens7974]

Hold that thought - Whenever the Bible says god is X, then take it as read that god is actually -X...the story (OT) makes much more sense if you ignore the propaganda and just treat god as the psychopathic narcissist that he is.

[@jaynajuly2140]

The pot and the kettle are fighting!!

[@garyjaensch7143]

Na it’s the battle of the apes, which ones best? Or do you have a better one? kzbin.info/aero/PLf-d0LviJevc-824-_n8-P86e1iSDLlus

[@Forest_Fifer]

Well well, the expression "2 bald men fighting over a comb" has never been so apt.

[@germanvisitor2]

They need that pattern on the butter.

[@garyjaensch7143]

Na 4 men fighting over nothing, Mars, buddha, or dimensions is much more fun. kzbin.info/aero/PLf-d0LviJevc-824-_n8-P86e1iSDLlus

[@billyskyline570]

This makes me reflect on something Hitch used to say. “Religion has had to give so much ground over time it’s exploitive power will eventually diminish.” This is a good example. RIP Hitch

[@reshmaakthar6970]

Yep, rip terrorist skum

[@zelkovaserrata3369]

This is absolutely phenomenal content. Dont get me wrong, I love your other videos, but this genre of content is something I didnt know I needed.

[@Paulogia]

Appreciated!

[@NekuraCa]

It's basically the same as "Which fictional character would win in a fight ..." arguments. Nobody will win, and they just look like idiots to anybody watching.

[@tonydarcy1606]

Jesus v Allah ? But Jesus is not allowed to see Allah !

[@brettbrewer6091]

Hulk vs Superman is a more interesting topic.

[@MrPtrB]

@@brettbrewer6091 prime superman < world breaker hulk < normal superman < normal hulk

[@garyjaensch7143]

I think nye would win out of this mob, martians 🙄. kzbin.info/aero/PLf-d0LviJevc-824-_n8-P86e1iSDLlus

[@devlinmcgrath975]

Q: Who would win in an arm wrestling Match? Lemmy or God? A: Trick question asshole, Lemmy is God.

[@grapeshot]

So this is the I'm holier-than-thou argument. The same as my holy book holier than yours.🤦🏿‍♂️

[@ThEjOkErIsWiLd00]

Their books certainly are full of holes.

[@lunaknights3539]

This is such an odd and unexpected scenario. Never thought I'd see the day when they 'battle' but here it is.

[@kiabvaj5656]

One of them will be dimmed heretical and driven out of the church.

[@didack1419]

I don't know, I always thought that this had to happen

[@davidmonteith-hodge901]

@@kiabvaj5656 They have both already been dimmed. ;o))

[@Deladus]

The weirdest part of this is I found myself agreeing with WLC even a little. It doesn't go that far, but comparatively he makes slightly more sense.

[@ffsivehadenough5648]

@@didack1419 Yeah, anyone who looks at Christian history will know that in fighting will always be a thing. Only in modern culture it’s less bloody and more scandalous.

[@logans.butler285]

That awkward moment when we actually root for WLC

[@thinboxdictator6720]

WLC at least isn't fraud.

[@mrrolandlawrence]

if they take each other out im fine with that :) with Christianity, no one is a winner except the church.

[@匕卄モ匕卄丹れKち]

@@thinboxdictator6720 WLC is definitely a FRAUD he nothing but a FRAUD.

[@wishusknight3009]

@@匕卄モ匕卄丹れKち Ham is the guy who is ripping off and bankrupting a small town and then blaming them for it. WLC is not a grifter. Though i will say he is far from in anyway honest.

[@Hurricayne92]

I believe that WLC actually believes what’s he says, Ken Ham not so much.

[@Akira-jd2zr]

Looks like this was an easy one for you, Paul. Just let them go at each other and sit back and watch...

[@ThePapser]

He probably deceptively edited it, Craig and Ham probably aren't even disagreeing. /s

[@leothenomad5675]

Let. Them. Fight.

[@SapphWolf]

@@ThePapser Totally! Can you believe that audacity of this guy?

[@garyjaensch7143]

Much more fun watching the other mob, are you with nye, we are martians? kzbin.info/aero/PLf-d0LviJevc-824-_n8-P86e1iSDLlus

[@NDHFilms]

This is one area where I feel Ken Ham has some fair points: 1. If there wasn't a literal Adam, why was Jesus necessary to atone for anything? 2. If you accept evolution, that appears to turn God into a kind of wasteful tinkerer. How much pain and suffering on a geological timescale, how much starvation, predation, and disease, to get to Homo Sapien? Did God watch the rise and fall of the dinosaurs with arms folded? The laryngeal nerve is not the work of a master craftsman, not are the tail and full coat of hair that the fetus grows and loses during gestation.

[@fred_derf]

+NDHFilms, writes _"This is one area where I feel Ken Ham has some fair points:"_ You realise that if you simply accept that jesus / god is a myth, all of the "problems" you list simply disappear, right?

[@NDHFilms]

@@fred_derf I am an atheist myself, I was just commenting on what I perceive as a certain tension in Christian belief.

[@fred_derf]

@@NDHFilms They are only problems for people of "faith". They are only problems if you insist on maintaining the delusion of a god existing. They are a "them" problem.

[@tonydarcy1606]

Ham's thought on WLC : *How dare you interfere in my business model* WLC's thoughts of Ham : *How dare you attack my standing as a sophisticated Christian philosopher* . I think Ham wins on the theology !

[@rustyclaymore1105]

Ken - I’ll see your peer reviewed scholarly Jesus journals and raise you my fake PhD and a giant fake boat! PS I checked with Bodie and he says I’m right.

[@danielf.7151]

THe fake PhD was Kent. Easy to mix up.

[@rustyclaymore1105]

@@danielf.7151 my god that’s right! I stand corrected. But to be fair, once you have a giant fake boat the fake credentials are not far off.

[@Suthek]

Ham: "This guy doesn't believe the creation story to be literal." Craig: "Of course not. Next thing you'd have to accept that there actually was a dome over the earth." Ham: *triggered*

[@uninspired3583]

Exactly. And after that, we would have to believe some nonsense about a virgin birth. Clearly angels showing up and talking to people is allegorical. Wait what? THOSE parts are real? Lol why?

[@garyjaensch7143]

Other mob : blown away😜. kzbin.info/aero/PLf-d0LviJevc-824-_n8-P86e1iSDLlus What’s your favourite, buddha, nothing, martians, hidden dimensions ? Or have you go another one?

[@TheIronicRaven]

Can we get an Epic Rap Battles of History version of this????

[@Sheyvanrocks]

6:47 Ken Ham: "His main thrust is to compromise the pagan Religion of Evolution / Millions of years with gods word" Can't make this up.

[@shaunelliott8583]

Sure you can. They did

[@DemonicRemption]

@Sheyvan Dude had me at "Lul, wut?" when he called it Paganism... I'd be embarrassed to call myself a Christian if I did disassociate with this manufactured drivel.

[@punkrockllama]

Ken Ham: most other Christians are against me Me: then maybe you're the problem...

[@DemonicRemption]

@PunkRockLlama Me(being a Christians who sees a lot wrong with Ken Ham's ideology):"I don't how you could've come to such a conclusion... :p"

[@JamesRichardWiley]

Begin with "In the beginning, "God" made the heavens and the earth." Who is God? God is an invisible and unknowable Hebrew male with three personalities named Yahweh. Yeah, that's a problem.

[@danieldelanoche2015]

Reminds me of an old saying: if you met an asshole today, you simply met an asshole. But if everyone you came across is an asshole, it's actually you who is the asshole.

[@garyjaensch7143]

He might have to go to Mars with the nye guy, or do you prefer dicky and krauss’s nothing. Buddha maybe, Degrassi at least is trying to sound sophisticated 😜. kzbin.info/aero/PLf-d0LviJevc-824-_n8-P86e1iSDLlus

[@archapmangcmg]

Verdict: Both Ham and Craig are right... When they point out the other is wrong.

[@garyjaensch7143]

What about the 4 from the planet of the apes, do you like nye the guy? We are martians, or perhaps Sammy the buddist? kzbin.info/aero/PLf-d0LviJevc-824-_n8-P86e1iSDLlus

[@magicker8052]

I guess we should be grateful that neither side no longer has the power to burn the other side at the stake. That's progress for you.

[@danielsnyder2288]

Did you have fun watching this? Sort of like two alchemists arguing over the correct spell and mixtures to convert lead to gold.

[@jayg342]

My cat is more moral than either of their gods.

[@charlesburns8661]

Well your cat is the true God, who wrote the moral on your heart so that has to be true! All praise the kitten.

[@brinkerduo]

I would never, ever, put some pun in here about worshipping pussy. Nope. To even think it would be puerile and childish. Nope.

[@jayg342]

@@brinkerduo I wish.

[@garyjaensch7143]

Hang on dont the 4 from the planet of the apes say there are no morals ? Which theory is best do you think? I mean morally of course, dicky and krauss with nothing? Sounds pain free doesn’t it, maybe nye the guy with martians? Sammy and buddha sound pain free too, the goal is no sense of self, what’s yours? kzbin.info/aero/PLf-d0LviJevc-824-_n8-P86e1iSDLlus

[@jayg342]

@@garyjaensch7143 Didn't you just answer your own question?

[@Amateur0Visionary]

To be fair to Ken Hamm, Craig often seems to come off as arrogant to me and many others. I just agreed with Ken Hamm....time for more shock treatments i guess!!

[@Mercury-Wells]

Best increase the voltage

[@ghettofreeze]

Calling a man "arrogant" is not the same thing as disagreeing with his ideas. Nor is it the same a agreeing with his opponent.

[@DemonicRemption]

@@ghettofreeze True, but he is arrogant, just not in the way Ken Ham claims he-- Ooooooh, I see what you're getting at.

[@Amateur0Visionary]

@@ghettofreeze this is likely an incredibly stupid question, so apologies up front. Did my post really make it seem that I'm unaware of the differences you point out? I know I'm no great writer, I'm not even a good one, but i THOUGHT i could communicate a little better than that. I wonder if that means i need more ECT and thorazine, or less? Probably more ;)

[@garyjaensch7143]

Is it legal to give shock treatment to martians, or the 4 from the planet of the apes ? I vote nye the guy gets the first shock with his martians theory🤣. kzbin.info/aero/PLf-d0LviJevc-824-_n8- Dicky and krauss won’t feel a thing, they say nothing, Sammy will be right, the aim of buddha is to have no sense of self, Degrassi will be hoping the dimensions will never catch up with him🦍. kzbin.info/aero/PLf-d0LviJevc-824-_n8-P86e1iSDLlus

[@racebannon5523]

Funny how Craig can say it's ridiculous to believe in a firmament and then turn around and say a man came back to life after he died.

[@enmanuelsan]

14:40 Craig acussing someone of doing mental gymnastics to defend the bible that has to be the most ironic thing in the entire multiverse .

[@garyjaensch7143]

Hang on , nye the guy says it’s martians, dicky and krauss say nothing, Sammy says buddha, I guess Degrassi might be closest to you with dimensions, just don’t know it yet 🤣. kzbin.info/aero/PLf-d0LviJevc-824-_n8-P86e1iSDLlus

[@enmanuelsan]

@@garyjaensch7143 lol missundertanding other people's argument isnt an argument Krauss doesnt mean literal nothing, Sarris is an atheist so you must be taking him out of context ,is weird how theist always acuse us of taking things out of context but then do exactly that, you seem unable to debate without strawmanning the oposition but I understand you, debunking real arguments is hard and takes intelligence so you go for the easy method

[@garyjaensch7143]

@@enmanuelsan your not the arbiter of strawmen, lol I even watched the video after dicky got laughed at, when he got together with krauss and complained about the bias of the ABC audience, duck duck go ABC climate change , show me how many conservative opinions you find, nye the guy said martian, show me the bit where I got it out of context.

[@garyjaensch7143]

@@enmanuelsan id at least expect to hear your argument , so I can try to strawman it!!!

[@enmanuelsan]

@@garyjaensch7143 ancient microoscopic life from mars that could have come to earth in meteors is not the same as saying literal green men in flying soucers, see? Another strawman, I'm not a big supporter of that hipotesis but you totally strawmaned it

[@StatedClearly]

9:38 "Really, you don't say?"

[@TibbsFrankies]

Good to see you. I love your content.

[@Wix_Mitwirth]

I don't care who's right, as long as they're fighting. I wonder if they'll eat each other.

[@garyjaensch7143]

That would mean aliens are going to eat us, well according to nye, watch the Babel video, what’s your theory on how the universe was created, Are you with krauss and dicky , nothing did it? kzbin.info/aero/PLf-d0LviJevc-824-_n8-P86e1iSDLlus

[@Wix_Mitwirth]

@@garyjaensch7143 who are the aliens going to eat first?

[@garyjaensch7143]

@@Wix_Mitwirth you’d have to ask nye the guy, martians was his theory, go to 9.50 on the Babel video, Dicky will be ok, he’s got a lifetime supply of bananas Ray comfort sent him, martians probably like bananas, if you’ve got another theory?

[@Wix_Mitwirth]

@@garyjaensch7143 1) It was not his theory that life on Earth came from "Martians". How very disingenuous of you. 2) If you're going to give someone a video suggestion, it should not be 75 minutes long and should not include Ken Ham or Ray Comfort unless you want to make me laugh and puke simultaneously. Try this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/j6unZYWsa7CFe6M

[@Evidence1]

The first 3 to 4 minutes of this video was Drop the Mic worthy. Absolutely awesome Paulogia 👍 🙏 😉

[@Dan_C604]

Christians against Christians, that was enlightening 😂

[@duncanbryson1167]

Nothing new - catholics and protestants?

[@michaelsommers2356]

@@duncanbryson1167 Or the Albigensian crusade.

[@Andreas_42]

No one expects the spanish inquisition! Edit: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qXLRaJWXh8ebrpY

[@michaelsommers2356]

@@Andreas_42 Actually, everybody did. The Inquisition made a point of announcing its arrival in advance, in order to scare the sinners.

[@Andreas_42]

@@michaelsommers2356 Seems like the Monthy Python reference is not as widely known as I excpected it to be ;-)

[@memyselfandi4173]

This is exactly what happens when two Christian friends of mine, one progressive and one more evangelical, start trying to gang up (good-naturedly, mind you) on me, a lifelong atheist, to try to get me to change my mind. They end up arguing with each other instead, and I just sit back and find it hilarious. Maybe these folks would have better success saving their fading religion if they could actually agree with each other. I guess we atheists should be thankful that they can't.

[@christophertstone]

I feel dumber for giving serious consideration Ham and Craig's thoughts.

[@solentbum]

I fell asleep listening to this , it was that riveting.

[@garyjaensch7143]

Yeah man go with the ones from the planet of the apes, oh and the Martian nye the guy! kzbin.info/aero/PLf-d0LviJevc-824-_n8-P86e1iSDLlus

[@doctorheadblog]

"To submit to the truth of scripture?" Well, at least he doesn't need to submit to much.

[@garyjaensch7143]

If you go with nye , you’ll have to submit to martians, maybe you prefer dicky and krauss, it was nothing, buddha maybe, you end up with no sense of self, but do get reborn multiple times 😇. kzbin.info/aero/PLf-d0LviJevc-824-_n8-P86e1iSDLlus

[@doctorheadblog]

@@garyjaensch7143 Huh what?

[@garyjaensch7143]

@@doctorheadblog exactly , what’s your theory?

[@twig8523]

😆 Never forget that for as much as they love to "band together" when spewing apologia at non-believers, Christians still can't agree on their own god & religion amongst themselves.

[@PaulaBean]

400 years ago whole populations would go to war against eachother over this.

[@bodricthered]

Almost like there's zero independent corroboration and multiple, mutually incompatible ways to interpret the text😃

[@garyjaensch7143]

Former apes find it much harder, although nye does say we were martians🤣. kzbin.info/aero/PLf-d0LviJevc-824-_n8-P86e1iSDLlus

[@johnbreckbuhl4849]

If I would've heard Dr Craigs argument a couple of years ago I would still be playing piano at my local baptist church. Greetings from Puerto Rico. Nice and objective, as usual.

[@garyjaensch7143]

Na you got to go to the subjective mob for the most fun, who’s do yo like best, dicky and krauss with nothing,, nye the guy with martians, Sammy the buddist? Or Degrassi with unknowable dimensions? What’s your theory now you’ve changed camps.? kzbin.info/aero/PLf-d0LviJevc-824-_n8-P86e1iSDLlus

[@jhill4874]

WLC irritates me, but KH scares me. KH's double down, take no prisoners attitude is the type of personality that would lead to a theocracy. Like "A Handmaid's Tale".

[@phileas007]

both would rather live in a theocracy and as soon as it's established, WLC would declare science to be heresy!

[@ifthat91]

Omg Ham just said we should judge others. He wants a literal interpretation of biblical phrasing, but stands in direct conflict with the sole judge of the universe.

[@ericvulgate]

ham should watch it with the big words he's likely to melt his little pseudo-brain.

[@DemonicRemption]

@eric vulgate -I'm sure he's fine, he's not Kent Hovind...- EDIT:"Nevermind, I forgot that Ham like Hovind believes evolution to be a religion..."

[@soriac2357]

Don't worry, he's lucky. Although his diminished mind can't take real heat, all he has to do with WLC is to keep a distance of a few meters, that's enough to disperse the hot air WLC produces and renders it harmless :-)

[@heiyuall]

“First we put two lobotomized chickens on the chessboard. Then we had them debate which of them was the greatest and most humble entity in the universe. Then we cleaned the table and had homemade KFC.”

[@garyjaensch7143]

The real fun is over with the guys from the planet of the apes, don’t mention bananas to dicky, he made Ray comfort famous!!! Who’s theory is best , the nye guy with martians ?

[@rickmueller3565]

Really enjoyed WLC imagining a Jesus who would be curious about ToE and ask for an explanation. Next time try explaining Germ Theory to an Iron Age carpenter who healed lepers by spitting on them

[@matthewbloom3869]

I'm more wrong! No! I'm more wrong! I'M MORE WRONG! NO, I'M MORE WRONG!

[@hopsta5628]

Being Australian it makes me laugh when I hear the grifter Ham preaching, he quit Australia because he had too much competition from another die hard Christian the old fire and brimstone preaching Fred Nile, who was a horrible human being, Ham knew he could fleece many more people out of their cash by moving to America, where the suckers were ripe for the picking, old Fred Nile had a monopoly on the religious grifting market which Ham couldn't compete with.

[@ravenwolf8632]

Can I point out the irony of the statement that at around 3:05 Craig pointing how pride is this terrible sin, despite the God of the bible won't stop flaunting Himself, or his powers, or talking about how great he is (aka pride) and these two individuals are always proclaiming how great they are in their particular field of studies (aka pride). I just find it so juicey that he doesn't believe he is arrogant.

[@MrRezillo]

I'm going to give Craig a bit of credit here. I didn't realize he wasn't a creationist and doesn't take the Bible as literal and inerrant. But that's all the credit I'm going to give him. Whatever WLC is, he's not the absolute moron that Ken Hamm is.

[@pansepot1490]

Whenever you begin to feel some appreciation for WLC remember the time he justified the slaughtering of children. Sometimes being less stupid makes you more culpable.

[@MrRezillo]

@@pansepot1490 Okay; I really don't know a lot of background about him. Do you happen to have a reference for this so I can read up on it? If I've said anything positive about him, it's only because I have Ham and and Hovinds and Sy Ten Brugencate in mind for comparison.

[@mrrolandlawrence]

christian VS christian... we have kinda seen this before. also as a "typical christian" i think ken ham is a good representation. some christians think the world is 6000 years old. some think that the bread literally turns to jesus body and the wine to his blood in their mouths and they actually enjoy that. so they are either vampire cannibals or deluded.

[@weirdwilliam8500]

Gee, if only we had some reliable tool to determine whose scriptural interpretation was the most accurate. What’s that, you say? It just depends on our feelings? There’s no way whatsoever to verify an interpretation? There are thousands of different sects and denominations of Christianity?

[@natew.7951]

This is such an important point

[@JamesRichardWiley]

This is why the Founders created a secular Federal Government.

[@dennispowell9035]

My opinion on this theistic argument, as with all theistic arguments... "They can't both be right, but they CAN both be wrong."

[@garyjaensch7143]

Who’s right on the planet of the apes, dicky and krauss say nothing, nye the guy says martians, a Sammy says buddha, Degrassi says dimensions, but we don’t know yet, you can join them, what’s your theory? kzbin.info/aero/PLf-d0LviJevc-824-_n8-P86e1iSDLlus

[@andreaferrara1969]

I love listening to these kinds of guys talk to each other. Shows how ridiculous their ideologies are.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

You nailed it.

[@beeschannel9006]

It's nice when others do your work for you. Both views have helped me to become an atheist.

[@andystokes8702]

I think it's quite amusing that these two both believe they have the absolute truth about something that no man can possibly know. Yet they are both certain.

[@desperadox7565]

While none of them has any evidence, it's very easy to disprove KH's YEC. An absolute proof against some kinds of OEC is more difficult or maybe even impossible.

[@andystokes8702]

@@desperadox7565 Yes, I agree, very easy to prove that YEC is wrong, several branches of science will kick it into touch. As far as OEC, again as you say, very difficult and maybe even impossible. Personally I wouldn't even bother trying to disprove it. Until such time as evidence comes to light to suggest it is true I see no reason to attempt to show that it is not.

[@matthewtucker2103]

Both of them debunking each other. This makes the atheists life so much more entertaining.

[@cyanchaos4490]

I love how Ken Ham tried to pick a fight with veggie tales creator.

[@conicalreason2981]

No one tell Craig he's given up the game, it's funnier that way. Oh, and Ken Hamneggs is bat poop crazy.

[@rpg896]

WLC believes in peer reviewed publications? 🤣🤣🤣

[@sirxamner]

I love how, right from the get-go, this sounds like two members of the adeptus ministorum yelling at each other: "YOU'RE A HERETIC!" "NO, YOU'RE THE HERETIC!" "HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A HERETIC, HERETIC?!" "I CALL THINGS LIKE I SEE THEM, HERETIC!"

[@jfarr206]

WLC: "Suppose the Bible taught that there really was a firmament...a solid dome over the earth....We'd have to revise our doctrine of Inspiration..." Yeah, you'd have to revise your doctrine of the Bible to "not-inspired", I would think. But WLC says it like you'd just modify it a bit....because, of course, the Bible can't be wrong!

[@unclescar5616]

My favourite part of this is how Paul just sits and blinks as a shots are fired behind him

[@BornOnThursday]

When athiests, like the Christian god, step back and let what happens happen, lol.

[@resistanceisfutile3920]

"When holy people are fighting each other, I'm a happy guy." - George Carlin "I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." --- Susan B. Anthony

[@deadly_dave]

@3:25 WLC you are arrogant, please step down from Christianity.

[@frogstamper]

The problem with Ham's almost child-like reading of Genesis is that if you have to believe the Bible literally you are, effectively committing intellectual suicide, as Craig said. Surely if there were to be a deity who gave us a brain, so we could get to the level we are at now he'd look at Ken Ham and say, "are you deranged? the Bible was intended for bronze age man, I'd have thought you would have "evolved" a little intelligence since then, you've wasted the gift I gave you Ham".

[@jtveg]

I love watching one cult fight another. Where one says magic can apply here but not there. While you have others that take everything literally and there is a firmament and the earth is flat etc... They may as well be arguing how many angels fit on the had of a pin for all the good it would do. Sophistry and foolishness.

[@Angelmou]

I use the "argument" Eric Hovind tried to use that when the bible says that Jesus was a door or gate that it would not mean he had hinges and a doorknob. But that is exactly the thing: You could argue for a literal door Jesus making a squeeking sound by opening the gate like you can use all the other ridiculous things. Biblical flatearther for example quote Matthew 4. 7. They argue for example with a literal understanding of the gospel of Matthew 4: _7 Jesus replied, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’” 8Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9“All this I will give You,” he said, “if You will fall down and worship me."_ That Jesus could not have seen "all the kingdoms of the world" from the top of a high mountain - simply because when the Earth would be round - "THE GLOBE" and not flat you couldn't see all countries - one is at the opposite side of the globe. Like China, Vietnam, the Maya kingdom in America etc. Therefore the Earth *must be flat* so that the words of Jesus and the bible can remain literally intact. I can then only speculate the psychologic reason, why people like creationists or flatearthers try to deny observations like 2+2=4 here a creationist from "questioning Darwin" openly admits he would deny 2+2=4 if the bible would say otherwise: kzbin.info/www/bejne/j6TIlJykq5hpbdk It is something with the psyche of the people. Not with any real arguments. Those people feel depressed and fear they would lose something important like a place in paradise or they fear imagined damnation and so on. Flat Earthers when you actually talk with them in flesh and blood are upset because they feel highly depressed about to be on a spinning ball in an almost endless void of space. That is what makes them hurt emotionally.

[@ericsbuds]

you deserve so many more subs. i am blown away that you arent at 100k yet. do you have advertisments enabled? if not, i would put ads at the begnning and end (mid roll ads SUCK lol). also, do you ever make story posts? im talking about those posts that show up on the recommended page about half way down. sometimes they are polls, sometimes they are just text. idk, but youtube doesnt seem to be doing you any favors, and i think your content is some of the best on the website.

[@onedaya_martian1238]

Good job Paulogia !! P.S. - thank you for the editing as usual ;-)

[@Paulogia]

ha! thank you

[@jacobp8383]

They are like the embodiement of the two extremes on spectrum of religious confirmation bias. From Craig's endless moving of the goal post, so that literally anything proves his religion true, as long as you interpret it correctly. To the other end of the spectrum, where people like Ham flat out refuses that anything contradicting their holy book is even real. Of the two I find Craig the least objectionable. But at least Ham's refusal to compromise lets people see that Christianity is repeatedly contradicted by observable reality and realize it most likely isn't true. While apologists like Craig and Peterson will probably extend the life of the religion and keep people believing in delusions longer, with all the harm that comes with it. Which is a pretty long winded way of saying that they both suck, but in different ways :)

[@joed1950]

Good Lord, has WLC actually gone towards the road of reasonableness. He still has mucho to answer for but there maybe a glimmer of hope fer 'im. Paulogia thank you for this excellent video.

[@CaseAgainstFaith1]

He has always been an old-earther. So, not really new here.

[@joed1950]

@@CaseAgainstFaith1 Yeah, I was thinking about his views on eviloution. I never heard him talk like that before. Sean Carroll might be interested in this video!

[@anthonymeyer3735]

Ham.......'the moon is made of soft white cheese'............Craig.....' 'no, that can't be right, science shows us that the moon is made of denser material, I would say hard blue cheese'.

[@robertwhite1810]

"Adam and "Eve" bhwaa...Craig says its a ridiculous story but the rest of the buybull is truth!

[@Mercury-Wells]

Buybull - that's a good'un

[@jonovens7974]

If genesis is not literal, then the whole foundation of Christianity is false...this is where Ken is coming from. You can't have Jesus saving us, if the reason is just a story / metaphor. But ofc reality proves that Genesis is not literal, so Ken and other creationists come across as grifters or dumbasses, or a combination of both. And non creationist christians have to cope with a huge amount of cognitive dissonance trying to accept something that is totally reliant on something they don't accept.

[@jacklabloom635]

When you think about the availability of known science today verses what was known during the Iron Age, it is not unreasonable to think the apostles and subsequent followers of Jesus could have been as gullible as Ham and Craig.

[@TenFalconsMusic]

This certainly gives new meaning to the term "Holy War." ...to which Ham & Craig both lost long before the first battle.

[@AlanLow]

Haha, yeah, all I can hear is Fight Fight Fight.....

[@kamilgregor]

"Origen and Augustine already argued for taking the creation story as a figurative text." Yes, because by that time, educated people already considered talking snakes and a god gardening laughable. Augustine himself says he had thought the Bible is ridiculous until his teacher Ambrose told him to just interpret everything as a metaphor for Platonic philosophy.

[@ghAmputeeAtheist]

They both lie about science to peddle BS. The only difference is a smart grade schooler can see through Ham's lies and to see through Craig's lies takes more education

[@Angelmou]

^This

[@wachyfanning]

Exactly. Craig's view on evolution (spontaneous human evolution via divine intervention) is still contradictory to science. Which hominid was it? Habilis? Erectus? Seeing as there's a clear gradient between our common ancestor with chimps and us today, alongside a clear gradual increase of intelligence indicated by the effectiveness of their tools, there is nothing for and everything against a sudden in knowledge, wisdom, and 'free will'. If god interviened with an early hominid, there's still a few million more years to go before they develop the intelligence we've got today. If it was a late hominid, you might ask why the hell god had to do anything, because hominids were already increasing in intelligence without him. It's almost as if there's no need for a god.

[@Angelmou]

@@wachyfanning I assume he thinks the fantasy of spiritual invisible soul entities fallen down from the sky in ape bodies and dying their "spiritual death" in the garden of Eden with the flamesword etc. be all algorical. A lot of catholic priest I talked about claim it like that to make sense of their indoctrinated ideas.

[@wachyfanning]

@@Angelmou I know that much of Genisis is likely metaphorical to Craig, but in the video here discusses his true interpretation, which still incorporates a true 'first human' changed from a selected ape.

[@resistanceisfutile3920]

Ham's type at least realize that once you start pulling on the thread of BS, it will quickly start unraveling down to the house of cards that it all is. It is all a distraction from the absurdity of an immaterial being (which is in itself a contradiction) creating a material world, when it would be entirely unnecessary.

[@lreadlResurrected]

I might have sub-titled this "the Immovable Object meets the Irresistible Force. Havock to follow."

[@BornOnThursday]

_When Two Absolute Truths Contradict._

[@inefffable]

Also him complaining about adhominen character attacks, juxtaposed with him attacking your intellectual character and the ""type of christian"" you were. 🤤🤤

[@Triumph_Of_Insinuation]

I am surprised Paul didn't get Cameron roped into this, since he suddenly gained the ability to read Paul's mind and know Paul's intentions.

[@Sharetheroad3333]

He apologized. 😌

[@Triumph_Of_Insinuation]

Thank you for the update, much appreciated!

[@HarryNicNicholas]

13:26 oh, cool, i keep wondering where exactly god does his design, wlc has filled another gap, that wasn't actually a gap, but needed god squeezed into, so god took a hominid, gave him a brain and a soul, and a pair of sandals i suppose, patted him on the head and sent him off to look for an apple tree.

[@iansaxby9264]

WLC may be wrong about a bunch of stuff, but at least he's honest. Ham is nothing but a cynical con artist.

[@匕卄モ匕卄丹れKち]

WLC has never and never will be honest. He just can’t accept he wrong and full of himself.

[@AimlessRyan]

No adult who says they believe there’s an invisible man in the sky who can do anything, loves everyone, and knows everything is honest.

[@iansaxby9264]

I don't think WLC is lying about his faith. Pretty sure he legitimately believes what he says, but he's mistaken. Ham, on the other hand, knows that he's spouting lies, and does it solely to scam money out of gullible fundamentalists. Even that stupid beard is part of his Patriarch schtick.

[@gabenorman747]

@@AimlessRyan Good thing he doesn't believe that.

[@LucasMidkiff]

"I believe that Humpty Dumpty didn't like jello." "Well I believe that Little Bo Peep went sky diving with Little Miss Muffet!" "

[@garyjaensch7143]

Your missing all the fun over on the planet of the apes🦍. kzbin.info/aero/PLf-d0LviJevc-824-_n8-P86e1iSDLlus. 😇

[@bodricthered]

How DARE you argue Spock's ear wax is blue... My unerring truth makes it utterly unarguable it's green... said the apologist I may have drifts off amidst the bullshit claims but that about sums it up right?