Khorasan Ancient Grain Sourdough | Proof Bread

A few years ago, our partner Hayden Flour Mills offered us something that allowed us to use far more local grains. They offered us a service of mixing all the flours we use at the mill so that we could save storage space and time. This arrangement brought about the Proof Blend flour which you can now buy at Main Street Harvest or online from Hayden Flour Mills. 4 locally grown grains stone milled and combined with a base bread flour make this blend an excellent, flavorful flour to use in baking.
We have a vision of something beyond this. We have the storage space now, and a desire to play with different grains to bring new flavors and textures onto our menu. Also, we want direct control of the base white flour that we are purchasing. Thus, all our base bread flour is now being sourced as organic flour from Central Milling, our Utah-based regional milling partner.
For the last couple of weeks, all of the bread flour that we use has been certified organic, and going forward we are proud to note that this is how things will remain. You may have noticed that our sourdough loaves have a lighter and airier texture. They are still derived from a whole grain flour, but it is a different one.
At Main Street Harvest we are dusting off our own tabletop flour mill, and preparing to launch a flour shop where you can not only come in and buy our historic Proof Blend flour, but also custom blends of ancient grains coupled with a selection of base flours. Meanwhile, we are utilizing these same resources to take a deep dive into ancient grains and alternative grains like Khorasan, White Sonora, Rye, Spelt, Buckwheat, and others. These ancient grains will come to us as whole berries. We will mill them and blend them with our base bread flours to bring a wider range of grains and traditions to our menu.
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Proof Bakery
125 W Main Street
Mesa AZ 85201
» Proof Bread is a modern throwback to a way of life that values small-scale craftsmanship, local community, and creativity. We are a small group of passionate bakers working in our garage (thanks to cottage laws) which has been converted into a micro-bakery. Everything we bake is made by hand, from the best local ingredients, with no short cuts.
#sourdough #bread #bakery

[@nuahtransit5858]

Thanks for sharing, I’m from Kurdistan region at Judy mountain , we have same wheat variety growing on irritation, we calling it Noah Wheat. My grand father were saying that this wheat were eating by gian men we called them Noah’s grand sons . These giant men were working as daily labors for free on to feed them enough food with this variety of wheat bread. But lately this variety almost disappeared and we relying on import wheat from Russia . It’s was great real story , I’ve tried to share with ur guys. Love ya all ✌️❤️❤️

[@rainerrain9689]

Thanks for telling us the history of your family ancestors and Khorasan Ancient Grain Sourdough.

[@sisifos2613]

Kürdistan diye bir yer yoktur

[@Johnny-xh6lr]

🙏

[@user-bw2cr9qo9b]

What a fascinating story. Are there any other things your grandfather told you about the giants and the Khorasan wheat? Would love to hear them!

[@nuahtransit5858]

@@user-bw2cr9qo9b , yeah but I couldn’t remember very well , they were doing grinding grain most often twice weekly and were mixing grains varieties to make bread, To be honest with you I’ve never taste it coz he was saying these story 35 years ago and his ID birth certificate was reading 1881 . Just imagine how long time ago. But I’ll ask my father if know something interesting I’ll re-comment here . Peace ✌️ ❤️❤️

[@dishmurphy6539]

Jon it’s wonderful to see a full bakery staff & you having time to experiment on new bread offerings. You seem more relaxed & in your element, challenging yourself & teaching others. I hope you & Amanda ( & the girls) have taken a break to breathe a bit & enjoy the fruits of an extremely challenging couple of years. You’ve accomplished so much with unreasonable deadlines for anyone under normal circumstances. Throw in a pandemic & all bets are off the table. You did it though & you’re an inspiration to so many. As always, I wish I was close enough to taste your bread. ✌️💚 🥖

[@albeal9213]

You Sir are a master of Masters. I found this video to be amazing. I am 64 years old and started making my own simple bread two years ago. To the point I don't buy bread anymore. I make my own. You brought this to another amazing level. I did not realize the amount of science that was involved in making the perfect loaf of bread. I am blown away! Water, temp, flour, and even how far or below sea level you are baking the bread! Astounding! Thank you for in my opinion the best bread baking video on KZbin! avb PS The equipment in your bakery is OFF THE CHARTS! I'm literally drooling.

[@philipvanderwaal6817]

I totally agree ,I have been baking bread for the last 5 years and still enjoy video’s like this one Keep those videos coming please

[@gregercarter1]

@Al, I too started a couple years ago, now at 67 Proof has been my mentor along the way! Visited Mesa location a year ago! Much thanks Jon, Amanda, and now Proof team! Really appreciated the outreach to Anna from Ukraine and the trip to Portugal! Blessings Proof!

[@apaheus]

Thanks for sharing your journey at Proof Bread. Quite a ride these last couple of years.👍

[@mrsmuffinman]

How lucky is your team to be the taste testers!!! Thank you for sharing, lovely video as usual ❤️

[@festifstitch]

I always find your videos very inspiring as a home baker. Also love the way you explain very interesting and important concepts in a simple way. It reminds me the way I talk to my kids so they can understand grown-up conversations :) Wish you all best!

[@dirkwhoward]

I loved your explanation of what is happening during the scalding process. I like using rye flour in a sourdough loaf that I make. I have found that rye flour above 15% of the total amount would produce a loaf that was a little gritty. I may try scalding the rye flour before adding to the rest of the dough. This may improve the texture. P.S. Love the Central Milling products. Great people to work with.

[@ChrisMills-AmbientSpace]

At 20:24, I love seeing your staff cleaning your equipment to a pristine state. Lovely! I also love seeing you checking that your mixer is switched off before poking your arm inside to measure temperatures. Nice!

[@helenjohnson7583]

When you have the recipe figured out, can you please share it with us? That looks like my kind of bread!!

[@sheilam4964]

👍👍👍👍👍 I am missing your regular videos but take it as a sign of your growing success which makes me so happy for you. You deserve it.

[@FallingDownLaughing]

Great video (as always). I was super-excited to see the khorasan, but especially the scalding method you used. I have been using a related method (tangzhong) -- which involves cooking 3% or so of your flour in water to 150F to get a similar gelatinous mixture. In my case, I have been doing this not to deal with whole grains, but because the process gives the interior of the loaves a softer texture that stays softer longer. I have found that for my baguettes, this method gives loaves that are still really good to eat after 2-3 days (and not just useful for hand-to-hand combat). Cooking is great at home, but as I understand it, at even a small commercial scale, the scalding approach is much more practical.

[@blaza1928]

Kamut, red fife, and white sonora. More please! I love Hayden Flour Mills. We used them where I used to work.

[@davidclark9086]

I have been baking Khorasan bread for 4 or 5 years. Great stuff.

[@elceeuk3887]

That was so interesting. Thank you. Especially enjoyed John’s cute smile when the young chap in the cap told him (genuinely) what John was hoping to hear. Can’t wait until I can get off this rock and down to Arizona! All the best from a home baker on Vancouver Island.

[@damianrhea8875]

Your business philosophy and practice are so COMMENDABLE !!! A bakery business, based in Gardena, CA, founded and run by Frenchmen, sells only at farmers markets in Los Angeles County and Orange County, CA, and uses only organic ingredients and sourdough as their starter, is called “Frogs Bakery”. They do organic sourdough buckwheat bread as well as other organic grains.

[@AngiesPantry58]

I learn so much from watching your channel. The Breads look amazing.

[@shamachelon]

I would have loved to taste this! I adore the process of sourdough bread. So much respect and time. Much attentiveness needed to make such an ancient art of healing bread. Thank you for sharing!

[@tchaggbruin3805]

khorasan is the most delicious floor I've ever tasted (as a baked bread), even better than spelt.

[@sharonanderson346]

I love watching your videos! I live in Georgia, so I won't be able to come and shop. I love sourdough bread! Thank you for all your hard work!

[@basilabedallah5797]

I loved this multicultural feeling of your bakery

[@salah8049]

Salam.I m from algeria I Love sougherdough bread my dream is being a good baker.actualy I back it at home four around 8 months I Love my bread.thank u very much for this experience

[@DARKLYLIT]

I tried Khorasan bread a few years ago and it was absolutely delicious! Good on you John for trying new grain varieties. As for the quicker "browning" time, wouldn't the Honey in the mix have a lot to do with the bread developing a browner crust quicker? More sugar=more caramelization, doesn't it?

[@HansWeberHimself]

I’m a biologist working in cellular therapy for cancer patients. I spend my day in the lab today doing EXACTLY what you were doing. Isn’t research to improve lives just the best fun time ever.

[@basilabedallah5797]

Good luck all of you

[@elizabethheyenga9277]

I bake entirely with Einkorn for my health. People with autoimmune thyroid are not supposed to eat gluten but ancient grains are genetically different enough they don't destroy us. I have eastern european wheat farmer genes so no wheat would kill me. Harder to get the same oven spring but it is heavenly stuff. A gorgeous golden color too

[@charlesbruggmann7909]

Einkorn - I have a 25% einkorn, 75% wheat proofing at the moment. It will taste delicious. The only time I tried a 100% einkorn, I used a bread form. What hydration do you use?

[@daniel.lopresti]

@@charlesbruggmann7909 I just saw your name and instantly the yeast brand sprang to mind - any relation? ;) I didn't even know I was aware of the brand, and I don't even buy yeast - always sourdough here! edit: ok I just checked and it's Bruggeman, local Belgian yeast manufacturer.

[@BobBob-pr4eh]

Interesting do khorasan type is no good?

[@abarnhart1679]

Your videos are so fun. I hope we can visit your bakery someday, in the meantime I’ll keep practicing at home.

[@mack56]

I love the whole grains .I use spelt from time to time, but grinding your own is awesome. I am going to try this with my vitamix. I could only wish I had a stone grinder like that. I love these informative videos. Thank you

[@RobBanks81]

Fascinating. I mill my own Khorasan flour for use in sourdough bread, but haven't tried scalding yet. Thanks for the inspiration.

[@massimoparisi4149]

Same here ,never tried scalding .

[@kyaume21]

I have been using small amounts of kamut (which is another name for khorasan) for a while now in my sourdough. It is lovely sandy coloured flour and ads some texture to the dough. I don't know about the protein content, so I don't make full kamut loafs, but enough to subtly ad notes of taste to the bread.

[@Danielle_1234]

I scald my flour too and make Khorasan bread as well as other lower carb types of bread at home. For anyone who is interested in scalding / yudane their flour it reduces some of the flavor and reduces some of the gluten strength, so it gets a slightly smaller rise. He's scalding it because of how he's milling the flour, but depending on what kind of khorasan flour you buy you may not want to scald at all. It's already lower in gluten than wheat so you either want to mix it with wheat or add vital wheat gluten or have a slightly reduced rise. (In the tasting part of the video someone mentioned the slightly denser crumb. That's from the scalding.) I scald lower carb flours because it reduces some of the flavor, mostly bitter notes, making low carb bread taste closer to normal white bread. It also adds extra softness in the crumb of the center of the bread. Because of this extra softness scalding is popular in premium sandwich bread.

[@mayra_m767]

Amazing!! Wish there was a baery like this near me. I learned how to make sourdough (inspired by my high medical needs child that needs easily digestible bread) and have followed you since (2020 was a coincidence) i have been making sourdough at home since and about a yr ago started milling my own wheat berries. Its so exciting to see a bakery do this!!

[@mjohnson2227]

Thank you for creating a healthy alternative

[@raenellcloyd140]

THIS IS SO EXCITING JON! ❤️ FROM TENNESSEE.

[@sandraengstrand2784]

Lots of activity in the bakery!! 🍞🥖🥐💕

[@michaelbolen2118]

introducing new flours with improved nutrition and different flavor sounds great. I really like home baking bread/crackers/pizza with sourdough starter in particular, may have to look into some home milling! Let us know when your locally produced flours are available for purchase (and hopefully shipping...).

[@14jenelle96]

Have you ever considered sprouted flour? Before machines harvested the grain it was shocked and left in the fields where it sprouted. The nutrients are more bioavailable because the phytic acid has been neutralized. Thank you for these documentaries, I really enjoy them.

[@daniel.lopresti]

I've often seen diastatic malt being added to bread which seems to be some sort of extract of malted grains, not sure if that has the same effect? Though I believe it's mostly added as a "conditioner" to improve the rise.

[@RovingPunster]

@@daniel.lopresti Ive used diastatic malt in both whole form as an all grain homebrewer, and in flour form as an amateur sourdough baker. For the latter, what youre looking for is called Diastatic Barley Malt Flour (DBMF), you want a lintner rating of at least 160 (dont buy if it lacks a rating), and for baking typical use is roughly 0.5% by weight of the total flour weight, or just over 1/2 tsp per 3 cups of flour, if I recall correctly. As for why ... wheatberries are designed to germinate and grow into wheat plants. Part of that 1st process involves naturally occuring enzymes (Protease & Amalyse) present in the outer layer activate and begin working on the grain when the grain has soaked and is beginning to sprout. Amalyse is most relevant to the brewing industry, as it is chief mechanism for converting the long chain carbs dormant in the grain into shorter chain sugars that gives the seedling energy to grow, whereas Protease is of somewhat greater relevance to baking. In brewing, the process is supercharged (50-100x more efficient) by crushing and soaking the grains into a very watery "mash" at a very specific optimal temperature range (although active at ambient temps, the optimal range for rapid and thorough amalyse conversion is 146-160F ... but its been 20yrs since I last brewed). As for flavor, a kiln is used as part of the "malting" process to not just dry the germinated grains (aka base grains that form the vast majority of the mash - usually pilsner malt or pale ale malt, of 3 lovibond or less) but to caramelize the sugars present to some degree to produce different (and darker) specialty grains that color and flavor the beer. However, high heat destroys the enzymes, so the more highly roasted/darker the specialty grains are, the lower their enzymatic content, which is why supplemental "diastatic malt" exists and is used in brewing ... it is malted and dried at precise temperatures in order to fully maximize its enzymatic prowess, so that in turm it can be added in small amounts to help convert all the enzymatically dead highly roasted specialty grains used to produce dark beers like porter & stout, because there's not enough in the base malts of a given grain bill to convert more than just itself - extra is needed, or the result will be cloudy, starchy, and low alchohol. Ok, back to flour and baking. Nearly all of the flour using in breadmaking (read: your base flour) is milled from RAW wheat. Raw, meaning it has not been germinated/malted to fully activate those enzymes and create a little sugar prior to being redried and milled. Flour from raw grain does indeed have some modest enzymatic activity, as long as its reasonably fresh and decent quality, but there are some uses in breadmaking for flour milled from more highly enzymatically active forms of the same grain - either sprouted grain or milled from brewer's diastatic malt (most powerful of all). Diastatic malt is more enzymatically potent than sprouted grain flour, so in baking DBMF only seems to be used in tiny amounts to enhance autolysis (Protease denatures gluten and improves extensibility and handling qualities), and to enhance browning (Amalyse produces tiny amounts of sugar in a room temperature dough - far less than it would in hot liquids typical to brewing). Sprouted grain flour is more enzymatically active than raw flour, but is not nearly as active as DBMF - its chief function is for flavor, which means its optimally blended in significant percentages into your base flour in order to achieve specific flavor goals. I havent played with sprouted grain flour yet, so i'll stop there. Hope that helps someone ... i'm just sharing what ive learned myself recently.

[@UchihaxStudios]

@@RovingPunster thanks for your. thorough explanation

[@RovingPunster]

@@UchihaxStudios You are very welcome ... yeah, I recently did some reading myself on baking uses for DBMF, and wanted to share with my fellow culinary DiYers. 😄 Ive noticed that it definitely enhances the effects of an autolyse rest (presumably protease developing and denaturing gluten, which increases extensibility), and it seems to definitely brown a bit better (presumably from amalyse producing tiny amounts of sugar in the dough). EDIT: a short clip follows below, from recently experimenting with DBMF in a la mian noodle dough. Pretty impressive extensibility (3ft+) despite fairly minimal kneading. I think it was a 3 hr autolyse at room temp - bread flour, 50% hydration, 2% salt, and a little over 1/2% DBMF, and nothing else ... aside from a light wipe of oil on the exterior, to inhibit pellicle/skin formation.

[@RovingPunster]

@@UchihaxStudios kzbin.info6vlsZv96GkQ?feature=share

[@Yaxim3]

I think the included honey is a bigger factor in how much faster its browning.

[@yarnexpress]

In New England, we have 2 breads, that I know of, that use a scald. My recipes are over 50 years old & were old recipes then. I think they must be well over 100 years old. The breads are Anadama & Wayside Inn Oatmeal bread. Anadama is cornmeal & molasses. I've learned that, depending on the grind of the cornmeal, the scald might cool off too quickly--using 2 C of cornmeal for 2 loaves. There can still be some grittiness. If so, I reheat in the microwave adding a bit more water first if needed.

[@balogh89]

This month I decided that I want to try myself in something new. Because of this I've bought a 1kg bag of Khorasan (it's called as "Kamut" around here), 1kg of "Király" flour, and 1kg of whole wheat "Király" flour. ("Király" wheat is a relatively new hungarian type, it's a mixture of Triticum aestivum and Triticum spelta.) At first I tried the Khorasan with my basic sourdough recipe, and I have to say.. man... that is something otherwordly! The smell and taste was so-so nice, that it was almost impossible to stop devouring the loaf! It had a different, yellowish color compared to the AP berad due to the higher carotin content, the texture was a bit more "stringy" as the protein amount is higher, and it kept fresh a bit longer. But in this last part I'm not that sure, as we eventually finished the loaf in a really short time. :-)) Right now in the fridge there is a loaf of "Király" bread fermenting nicely, tomorrow morning it will go into the oven. I'm extremely curious about how it will turn out! The dough handled a bit differently, actually, it was better than the AP dough. I've decided to try out this three type of flour because their GI is lower than the AP flour's, and because of it it fits better into my wife's diet. I won't lie; as we both loved the Kamut loaf, I might keep making it in the future (maybe alternating it with the Király ones, if those will be just as awesome.)

[@xristosvardakostas]

How did the kiraly loaf go

[@balogh89]

It proofed, baked and looked like just as regular wheat would. It had maybe a bit more yellowish crumb, but nothing noticeable as it was the case with the khorasan. But the smell and taste..! It was richer and much better, it was really hard to stop eating that bread! :-) The khorasan was more "exotic", the kiraly bread is more like a gateway drug for those whom worried to experiment. It was definitely worth it. Today I'll bake a really small batch of dark rye sourdough (my wife isn't really fond if it), but next week I'll do one loaf of khorasan again and a smaller load of whole wheat kiraly (40 or 50% for starting I think) to test that one out too.

[@user-ql9oz6fx6k]

I missed you guys

[@cachi-7878]

@6:30 Jon, you should have bought the next model up which is the Pro model. It can run continuously and has a heftier motor. It also has thermal protection. These Mockmills are great little machines, I love mine. That’s great flour, BTW. I used to buy flour from Central Milling when I lived in CA.

[@kevinorr6880]

All super cool…and yet, I cannot get a good starter. I have so very far to go! Exciting to see.

[@1979SFC]

try to find old grain in Danmark.. know there are small bakeryes that does the same thing as you.. love what you do..

[@susanarellano2364]

My husband is from Ecuador 🇪🇨 . Locally made breads. (Pan) vary from area to area. My favorite is in the mountains…..

[@kongrudi71]

Thanks for a great video! This is so exciting! I live in Denmark, so kinda want to transale the flour to something i Can get, Is all of the flower t80? And is it stonemilled?

[@TheDuckofDoom.]

Pro grinding tip, make a first fast pass on a wide-coarse setting then re-grind fine on a second pass. You could also get a roll crusher, like homebrew supply shops use, for that first pass. They are much faster and waste less energy on friction heat.

[@margielaughlin6056]

Central Milling ABC is white bread flour, not T85 I made the Rye version with T85 & it was excellent!

[@blissh808]

I soaked with Apple cider vinegar and sea salts because all grains have a lot of anti-nutrients, after soaking them for 24 hrs-hrs, rinse them, then I blended them in my Vitamix with water, and yeasts. I let it sits in the fridge for 4-5 days. I took it out the fridge, let it sit for 1 hr, I added salt. Then I stretched and fold after that. Final overnight proofing, I baked my bread. I like Einkorn grains, i mixed with Spelt or Kamut grains. I absolutely don’t use the modern grains. I do the same process with nuts, legumes, leafy greens, and vegetables, that is soaked with ACV and sea salts for at least 7 hrs. Einkorn has lower gluten than other grains, I don’t do much stretch and fold, also very light scoring. Very sticky dough and dense bread, thus I added 30% Spelt or Kamut for softened and more crumbs. 😊

[@robertbrewer2190]

Sure enough, Kamut/khorasan whole or bolted is out of stock at all places I have previously bought it. I fell in love with it early in my brief baking career and use it sporadically. I cannot stop eating the aromatic a flavorful results. Cooling the scalded mass in a flattened lift in a rectangular proofing box is another step but gives more reliable result? Pretty soon we will have to resort to the Dark Web for khorasan. Rats! Very interesting coverage of your development Thanks

[@robertbrewer2190]

Update: I did fine two pounds on eBay for.....wait for it.......$12 per pound, USD. This brings a whole new meaning to "Golden Loaf"

[@NashvillePastaman]

Really nice to see artisanal bakers- people who are really interested in one of the oldest skill in the history of mankind….. the production of nutrient dense bread

[@cachi-7878]

Jon, can we please get the proportions of ancient grain to the ABC flour? Also, can you pass the tray this way? I’d like to try it too. ☺️

[@codysmith4513]

A bit late, but from my experience, 20 percent is a good starting point. Personally, I prefer 60 AG/40 Hi Gluten

[@StevieWonders2020]

some history and info on khorasan [which may also be called Kamut?] would be informative and interesting to viewers.

[@nd7177]

Thank you for sharing. Wonder what was the reason gor adding the honey in this dough? Thank you

[@Dexman01]

Lovely video! Keep em' coming! 💪 Any chance you can share the bakers %? For this bread? Or maybe I just missed it in the video 🙈 Br / Daniel from Denmark 🇩🇰

[@abdyvence6729]

I'm still not really sure why you scald the khorasan. Does it help the "crumb" from crumbling soon? (I mean the bread?) My experience is that it looses it "sponginess" and sheds crumbs soon. Also how course/fine do you grind your grain? This year I planted part of my garden (30' x 70') with Kamut. I've been growing my own wheat for about 6 years. I also grind my grain as fine as my mill can grind; it's almost as fine as flour I buy in the store. I baked a 4 loaf batch of nothing but Kamut flour that I ground. I also used regular bread making recipe with bread yeast the average person uses for making bread. It doesn't rise and hold its shape like regular flour which I am not surprised. I'm not sure if I can make artisan sourdough bread with just kamut flour. Thanks again for your great presentation.

[@GiuseppePipia]

That's like making semolino, made with durum wheat and cooked in the same proportions, or, more generally, polenta!

[@thelittlethingskate9567]

I know this is old and you’ve probably already figured it out, but if you spread that hot scald mixture thinly up the sides of the bowl before you put it in the cooler, it creates a larger surface area and it cools MUCH faster and more evenly.

[@implanterion]

A piece of tin foil acts as a better lid than none @ all. It will boil faster & you'll lose less due to evaporation. Love watching your channel. I wish I was closer so that I could try your breads.

[@Ras7685]

I love the "Mad Scientist " mood .

[@RovingPunster]

I love Khorsan (aka Kamut), and recently reviewed a few brands on amazon, but I had to give up on using self milled flour in my breadmsking, because my home mill just couldnt grind it finely enough. Commercial versions can be awesome, if theyve been properly milled and boltered to 100+ mesh, but my home mill can only get it down to the texture of fine cornmeal. If I use a 40 mesh sieve, i'm lucky to get 60% yield. Too coarse grind means a closed grain and a gritty crumb in your bread. Bottom line: kamut has good protein content, fabulous flavor, and a lovely golden hue, but if a nice open crumb is desired, you MUST buy it from a mill that can grind and bolter it finely. As for my home - i no longer grind my own flour, but if ground to a semolina sized grit, kamut makes an AWESOME PORRIDGE. Hydrate to 400% and simmer 7 mins ... amazing stuff. UPDATE: I figured out a way to partially mitigate the problems I had with insufficient fineness of grind of home-milled flour. The first is regrinding my too-coarse flour, and 40 mesh fannings, with my ninja bullet (which improved my milling yield by a third), and the second is "scalding" ... gelatinizing the resulting fannings by making a quick unseasoned porridge, then cooling it down and mixing it with the remaining ingredients just prior to autolysis and bulk fermentation. It's not perfect, but the result was a big improvement that allowed me to revert to using 20% self milled kamut in my sourdough, and my starters are happier than ever.

[@helenjohnson7583]

Thanks for the extra info on the kamut!

[@RovingPunster]

@@helenjohnson7583 No problem. BTW, kamut's large dense grains and nutty flavor also make an excellent cold wheatberry salad. Add a little rice wine vinegarette (grapeseed oil, rice vineger, a little mirin, and just enough mustard to emulsify), some fine burnois mirepoix, some fresh herb, and maybe some chopped walnuts and a sprinkle of sultanas to a bowl of cooked chilled kamut berries, and good to go.

[@RovingPunster]

OP updated with a recent tweak to my techniques that worked pretty well.

[@morningstarhomestead]

I personally think we all just need to reevaluate what we think is desirable and a loaf of bread. Our taste buds have all been trained to desire only light airy fluffy bread, but that's just not how real whole grains work most of the time

[@RovingPunster]

@@morningstarhomestead Oh, and how much reevaluation do people need to do before you feel they've earned the right to have their own first hand experience based personal preferences and opinions that differ from your own ? Let me guess ... endless & never ? If your modus operandi is denigrate, dismiss or squelch those whose tastes differ from yours, kindly pipe down so that people can have conversations freely. If you have something cogent and useful to offer, then share THAT.

[@kirafrost5214]

Look at the Food Nanny. She has a miller in Montana that sells Kamut white flour and wheat.

[@deebrake]

Jon, in terms of amounts from home baking perspective about how much of this scaled Khorasan in grams would need to be added to a Two Loaf recipe. Just looking ballpark in relation to your 2 Loaf recipe you did on video for us? Thanks

[@blastman145897]

Making this right now. Could you provide the ratios for starter, salt, honey, and additional flour? Currently waiting for my skald to cool! New to this, don’t quite know how to interpret some things in the video.😊

[@riccardocacchioli9952]

please post on rumble as well

[@leemiddleton8318]

I've been baking SD for 25 years at home. I have used the boiling water process for whole wheat, but I never knew to do 2:1 water to flour. I just used a little more than half of the total water hot on the WW. How do you decide how much more water to use for the final ratio? Maybe no one else is interested in the particulars, but if you could share more detailed formulas I would love it. I do realize a lot of that decision may be totally dependent on experience, but whatever guidance you are willing to offer would be great.

[@user-ym9dl6xs9z]

Can you explain to me, what adds to the dough, flour cooked in boiling water

[@Nembula]

That looks luscious! Next step, where will you install the tandoori.

[@Nembula]

And another thing, it was endearing to watch you have everyone try the new bread. Putin might have advice on getting Your employees opinions. You need 40 hungry pyramid builders to take it as their daily payment.

[@ProofBread]

Interesting you say this, because we would love to make pita considering Amanda’s roots from Lebanon, but our oven doesn’t quite get hot enough.

[@amyh4032]

What percentage of the total flour mix should be scalded? Also how do you calculate the total hydration, do you incude the hydration of the scald into the total hydration? I'm semi- confident with sourdough baking but new to scalding and have no idea what I'm doing 😂currently have two loaves resting and I think i've included too much scald to both oops.

[@user-mc9xm5ye1g]

Can you please share the recipe a home baker would use, if we want to scald our dough? My recipe calls for 800 grams white flour and 200 grams whole wheat. I use only ancient grains... My white flour is a combination of white sonora and turkey red, and I use a combination of Einkorn, Spelt, Emmer and Khorosan for the whole meat. I really want to try scalding!!

[@kaybell1501]

Justin at Metcalf Mills has designed a small stone ground mill that he is in the process of setting up to sell to communities. He has a you tube channel if you want to check him out.

[@nancycuppy2371]

So is the flour and scalding making a yudane?

[@TEDodd]

You made a tangzhong (Japanese name for cooking some flour and water so it holds more water). Typically a tangzhong is 5-10% of the flour at 500% hydration, however I use one (20% of the flour) to make 90% hydration dough.

[@FallingDownLaughing]

I have used tangzhong with great success. I make 3-4 baguettes at a time and sometime it takes me a day or two to get the "extras" to a good home. With the tangzhong method (I'm doing 3% of the total flour in 4X as much water by weight), the inside of the loaves stays softer for several days longer. At the risk of being pedantic, I believe what John has done here is closer to yudane than tangzhong. Both are gelatinous roux-like mixtures that allow the dough to hold more moisture. Tangzhong involves cooking the flour; yudane "scalds" the grain by adding very hot water to the grains. Tangzhong is easy to put into practice for the home baker -- for 1,600 grams of dough, I am cooking 28 grams of flour in 113 grams of water (barely covering the bottom of the smallest saucepan I have). For anything at a large scale, yudane (scalding) is much more practical than tangzhong (cooking).

[@TEDodd]

​@@FallingDownLaughing not pedantic at all. It is more yudane than tangzhong. It's just that yudane seems less know in the US (of course I guess both were more unknown a few years ago than now. I'd never even heard of milk bread until a few years ago) After I posted I was thinking about it more and stumbled upon yudane. I should have edited/added to the post but got distracted. I have seen tangzhong done without really cooking, just not as hot as yudane (and of course more liquid). What I haven't found is a good comparison of the two. What the differences are. Either way, for the batches they are doing that's lot of hot material to cool which seems to be the biggest drawback.

[@dfhepner]

The scalding is like tangzhong

[@charlesbruggmann7909]

Sorry for being persnickety, but in France, a T85 flour contains about 80% of the grain. It is not, by definition, ‘wholegrain’. Sorry if this is different in your part of the world.

[@ProofBread]

These definitions can get convoluted depending where you are. In the US any flour that has all portions of the wheat berry present in some amount is considered whole grain, whereas whole wheat flour refers to the entire berry being present.

[@charlesbruggmann7909]

@@ProofBread Thanks - we learn something new every day. PS: a T85 flour is called ‘farine bise’ in France. In Switzerland, ‘farine bise’ is T105.

[@TEDodd]

@@ProofBread isn't that backwards? I don't think the whole wheat flour I buy has all of the berry. Some is sifted out.

[@bfbpj]

I thought Central Milling ABC is refined white flour. Do you get a special high extraction 85% ??

[@charlesbruggmann7909]

@@bfbpj Using the French typology, a white flour T55 will contain approx 65% of the grain, T85 approx 80%. A ‘brown’ flour if you wish.

[@RGS61]

The challenge with home milling is that it's difficult to control starch damage .. which dough stickiness, the need for higher hydration and excessive browning are key indicators of .. Curious why the decision to scald the khorasan? It's going to give a softer dough, but at the expense of a more open dough structure, and will tend to exaggerate the effects of the starch damage because of the pre-gelatinization .. A simple blend of khorasan and common wheat will deliver plenty of ancient grain flavor, and for an additional, old world texture, some additional cracked, cooked khorasan berries could be included during bulk ..

[@ProofBread]

The scald isn’t necessary by any means, but it’s more for my own edification. I want to work on the scalding process across a number of grains and compare/contrast the flavor and texture this method brings. One element I’ve really enjoyed so far is that the scald adds moisture in a way that seems to have a profound improvement on shelf life. Also, these grains are Uber expensive in our area and the method allows for lesser incorporation while actually getting more flavor from the grain as a result of this process. I’m sure I’ll adjust, but for now I’m in a season of scalding because I want to walk away from it really understanding the nuances of what I can do with this method.

[@stevenfrazier8939]

You do know that Central Milling has no more Kamut and is mo longer available?

[@jel88]

what is the ratio of flour, khorasan and water?

[@randyhou8522]

Does store bought whole wheat flour benefit from scalding?

[@markthaxton3839]

How would I scale that recipe down to a person doing it at home? And will you share the recipe?

[@KatMa664]

So if you were making this bread at home, what percentage of scold would you include? Maybe you’re gonna say that later on in the video I’m only partway through it.

[@lisaoneill3775]

Doesn’t the high heat kill the nutrients in the flour? I thought the main purpose of milling the grain is to preserve the nutrients. Your feedback is welcome

[@user-pp9fp7bx4k]

You bake bread to 200f or so, so that would be the same as scalding temperature.

[@Lee-NN7X]

Is the water you use filtered?

[@ProofBread]

Yes, we have an in line filtration system for the whole facility.

[@davidwalters9462]

Doesn't the very hot water kill off the yeast in the flour?

[@TEDodd]

The yeast is you want is in the starter. That why it had to cool before adding that.

[@MichaelStanwyck]

Khorasan is what is sometimes known as kamut?

[@sergetaquin5915]

Yes it is. Kamut is a registered trademark, Khorasan is Triticum Turgidum Tiranicum

[@geezerdude4873]

The fiber in truly whole grains, from the hulls in particular, will cut the strands of gluten. So the scald/presoak will help gluten development in your low gluten ancient grain flour, but gentle handling is a critical part thereafter in retaining the limited gluten structure without damaging the strands of gluten. There is an art in making light whole grain bread which has the actual "whole" grain because of the risk of damaging the gluten. Minimal mixing all the way! The retained bran can be a danger to the gluten structure if overworked. It is fun to mess with mixes of grains, including Kamut (khorosan name trademarked in the US), spelt and rye, wheat varieties, etc. Try about 5% to 8% rye and up to 20% spelt. I have some einkorn but haven't messed with it yet.

[@charlesbruggmann7909]

Try 80% wholewheat rye + 20% wholewheat spelt. No oven spring (called a ‘galette ‘ in French) but tastes lovely. More usually 80% ‘all purpose’ spelt + 20% wholegrain rye also works very well.

[@geezerdude4873]

@@charlesbruggmann7909 There are all sorts of whole grain breads that are very interesting from a flavor perspective, and I love most of them. There is also 100% rye Detmolder (spelling?) rye, which if done right (it is the masters exam in Germany) is not as dense as you might expect--which is why it is major part of the master baker exam in Germany. The milling of the whole grains can also be significant relative to starch damage ('falling numbers" for a professional baker), etc., and impact type home mills giving generally more favorable results for the home baker (like the Nutrimill) than stone mills in terms of actual measured results (been there, done those measurements by providing flour to somebody in a lab ages ago). So milling techniques affect quality of the final product in very subtle ways, but my photogenic stone mill in the wooden case sits on my counter as I am not that into bread making every day to tell the difference and the Nutrimill sounds like a jet engine idling. A whisper of rye will make a wheat based bread have a very subtly more interesting flavor you cannot quite put your finger on what it is, and also helps natural levain (like sourdough) a bit. (European "wheat" breads often have a significant portion of rye in them from seed saving from the year before over decades.) And I just love about 20% spelt or even more--depends on my mood.

[@cristiandragomir3039]

Do you have any bread recipe to share?

[@trijezdci4588]

You might want to get yourself an extra fine sieve (mesh 100) then sift the flour and remill that fraction that doesn't pass through. Repeat until all the material passes through the sieve. With that small particle size the bran will take up much more water, typically between 90 and 100%. However, this takes a very long time. You need 10-12 hours dough rest for all the water to be absorbed. The dough will be very liquid after mixing, but after 10-12 hours when it has soaked up all the water, it will be just fine. Then you do your stretch and folds. And then another 12-36 hours of fermentation. You'll get a very open and juicy crumb this way. You can still add some pre-gelatinised flour roux, but it is not strictly necessary. kzbin.info/www/bejne/n5fQaHmOormEaNU BTW, Type 80 is not wholegrain flour. Type 150 is wholegrain flour.

[@ProofBread]

Thank you for this feedback. I will certainly give it a go. I think there is a distinction depending on where you are in the world between the idea of “whole wheat” and “whole grain”. A lot of the people in my region refer to type 150 as “whole wheat” and basically everything above just white flour as whole grain. The concept being that even though it is sifted and the largest particles of bran are removed, all parts of the grain are still present in some amount. I like this terminology because it helps make the distinction that this is not a white bread. One problem in the US retail market is that flour is labeled in a very vague way, so much of the general public would not be able to distinguish between flour based on numerology.

[@trijezdci4588]

@@ProofBread Keep in mind that when you have only about 10% of material left after several cycles of sifting and re-milling the remainder, the stone mill will not likely get this remainder much finer. An impact mill with blades rotating at high speed will do a much better job once that point is reached. If you don't have such a mill, for small test batches you can also use an electric coffee mill. When you have only about 3% of material left, the remainder will be of a red-brownish colour. It is very tough and if you compress it, it will bounce back a bit. Millers call this material "red dog". It is comprised of lignin and cellulose, basically it is wooden sawdust. You can safely leave this out of your flour. As for what is and what isn't whole grain, we need to distinguish between whole grain flour and whole grain end products. In countries where there is regulation, whole grain flour always means flour that is ground from the whole grain and contains all constituents of the grain in the same ratios as in the whole grain. However, in many countries the outer woody skin may be removed. This can be achieved either by polishing the grain before milling or by sifting after milling. By contrast, there are very different rules for when an end-product can be called whole grain. In the US a cereal product must contain at least 51% of whole grain (or whole grain flour) to be called whole grain. In Germany, it must be at least 90% and in France 100%. Thus, a whole grain flour is always 100% whole grain but a whole grain bread may only contain a fraction of whole grain (or whole grain flour). In French, there are two terms for whole grain flour, one is farine intégrale (integral flour) and the other is farine complète (complete flour). The former contains the woody skin, the latter doesn't. However, farine intégrale is uncommon in France. Instead, the standard whole grain flour is farine complète with an extraction of ~97% and about 1.5% mineral content. It has its own type: Type 150. By contrast, Type 80 is half-white flour with an extraction of ~70%. It has around 0.8% mineral content.

[@koynelistifado]

By experience i have some questions.... 1st... what's the point to mix with so much water? I suppose you mixing a top quality bread, why you make it to look cheaper? 2nd... By boiling the water you kill all the bacteria it contains (yes with the useful bacteria) and the chloride from the water carrier it stays. I noticed that the flour it was a bit thick and that its a good but i believe it's need some time to cool down and dry (14% hydration is the ideal). My opinion with those grains is better to mix it as our grand fathers... Fresh Spring water with scaling 60 water 40 flour

[@ProofBread]

60% water plus 40% flour is actually far wetter than this loaf of bread, and without a technique like scalding would create soup, not bread. Adding water to the loaf is not to cheapen it, but rather to achieve a desirable texture. Many of your questions are answered in the video. The scald is only a percentage of the flour added, and the water in the scald is not the only water in the recipe, nor is the Khorosan in the scald the only flour in the recipe. The techniques used are also practiced in various cultures and have been for many years. I would suggest to best answer your questions, you watch the full length of the video. I do a lot to explain the logic behind this method while also offering more commonly used methods in many of the other videos we have made.

[@cinemoriahFPV]

Honey definitely causes more of a maillard reaction.

[@henkvanos3561]

Why do you put honey in this bread?

[@ProofBread]

It’s not really necessary, but adds a really nice subtle flavor. The amount is very small at 2% bakers % or less than 1% of overall dough weight. Mostly include it because I like the results.

[@BobBob-pr4eh]

Isn’t khorasan In Iran?

[@mcwolf33]

Great video, is there any chance someone can write down the full recipe, he talks too much 😉! thanx !

[@HeatherNaturaly]

I have a friend who is building 'small community' sized grain mills. Check him out on KZbin "Metcalf Mills". Might be just what you are needing!

[@mtavassoti]

Little fun fact: this grain is originally from Iran 🇮🇷 🙂👍

[@dogit1840]

Allowing farmland to be converted into residential housing or Industrial land. the amount of unused Land in the United States I don't understand why this was ever to be allowed

[@implanterion]

Corporate greed would be my guess

[@TEDodd]

Who is going to tell me what I can do with my land? Property rights used to be important in this country.

[@robertbrewer2190]

@@TEDodd Who is going to protect you land from the toxic waste dump or 50 acre animal manure pond next to your properly, making it valueless?

[@longduckdong5489]

Can we please keep the conversation on topic…

[@KatonBouzalakos]

I love your technic but the face covering reminds me covid. In UK we are masks free

[@ProofBread]

We are still reminded of COVID daily as it definitely left a long lasting impact on all the world. We allow our team to make their own free and independent choices on masking. I personally don’t wear one unless forced, but I don’t judge those who feel safer with one either. COVID complicated our worlds.

[@isabellekeyzer]

around 35 min, I see a girl wit long hair hanging in her face. When I cook without fastening my hair, i get hair in my food.

[@auptag4846]

Too much blah, blah, blah. Too much repeating.

[@angus1000001]

Does the manager make the workers wear shame muzzles?